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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: Darren S on Friday 19 October 07 15:39 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
By pure chance, I found out about the murder of John Payne/Pain, of Billington, Beds, in 1817. He was murdered by a Daniel Munn (who had previously murdered his wife and a local shopkeeper) outside the Red Lion pub in Dagnall (across the border in Bucks).
Read about it here from Page 9 onwards:
http://www.bucksfhs.org.uk/images/stories/Image/pdf/origins/vol17_03.pdf
It seems very likely that John Payne is actually an ancestor of my wife's, but I haven't been able to find out any more about the unfortunate victim other than where he lived. Billington is a very small village so there can't be that many John Paynes, though.
James Pain/Payne, 1804-1871, was my wife's 4xgreat grandfather. You can see him in the 1841 census, living with his wife Ann at "Littel Billington" (sic) and 5 children here:
http://www.leighton-linslade.com/census/1841/billington.html
His baptism, in Billington, is on the IGI on 23/09/1804, with parents John Pain and Elizabeth. John Pain was baptised in Billington on 28/05/1780, to parents John Pain and Ann. John Pain Senior was christened in Leighton Buzzard in 1754. No-one else called John Pain appears in the IGI for Billington.
There is also a John Pain in Billington in 1841, aged 60, but married to a Mary, aged 50. This is possibly James Pain's father, but remarried - unless it is a different, unrelated John Pain.
So either the victim was James's father, James's grandfather, or someone else? Does anyone have access to any burial information, etc. that could find out the age, and even better, the widow, of the victim?
Thanks!
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John Payne age 56 buried at Billington on 5 May 1817
It's a sexist thing but whilst you often see Elizabeth, wife of John, labourer, buried...., I've never seen it the other way round John, husband of Elizabeth. You might get junior or senior though
David
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John Payne age 56 buried at Billington on 5 May 1817
It's a sexist thing but whilst you often see Elizabeth, wife of John, labourer, buried...., I've never seen it the other way round John, husband of Elizabeth. You might get junior or senior though
David
Hi, thanks for that. Did the record say who his wife was? Or, can you find any baptism records for a John Payne in 1760/1761?
I suspect that my assumption that John Payne senior was the one Christened in Leighton Buzzard in 1754 could be wrong. (John Pain senior did, however, marry Ann Proctor in LB).
Equally, this could be another John Payne I don't know about. The plot thickens...
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As I said, burial records don't usually say who the wife was. I took that from an index so you'd need to check the parish register or transcript to see if there's any other detail.
Virtually all Beds baptisms pre 1812 have been extracted onto the IGI
David
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Hi Darren & David.
I can look at the film today as I believe they have a copy in Leighton Buzzard and I am going to mum & dads today.
I will look through for any comments and see if any extra info is available.
As you both know the county boudary near here covers 3 counties so rellies can bob about abit over the small villages.
Will check back later.
Tazzie
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Hi Darren & David...
Well I had a good look through the burials but as David says no other information.
I did check the PR book for the baptism of a John Payne for 1754 and found..
Jn son of Jn and Mary Payne of Heath bapt 27 Feb 1754.
They only have marriages from 1843 onwards so could not recheck any before that date for Billington.
Tazzie
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Thanks for your help, Tazzie! It's a shame we haven't managed to find any extra information. There are baptisms for John Pain/Payne in adjacent counties, but he could be any or none of them.
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Common name as you say Darren. I also have Paynes in Bedford and spelling changes don't help during census.
I will keep a look out for anything interesting. There are some local books on "murder in Bucks /Beds" may shed some clues.
Tazzie
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I was very interested to read of the murder of John Pain of Billington.
My ancestors William Griffin c1792-1834 and Elizabeth Pain c1790-1826 both resided in Billington. they married in All Saints Leighton Buzzard on 15.10.1813.
They are both buried at St. Michael & All Angels in Billington, as are all my grandparents from this line.
Have you come across Elizabeth in your research as I have not been able to get back any further?
I live fairly close by in Luton and have a lot of pictures of the church and graveyard.
Lynda
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Hi Lynda,
The only two Elizabeth Pain/Paynes who were baptised in Billington, Beds (according to the IGI) were both sisters of John Pain/Payne, born 1780 in Billington, who my wife is descended from.
I suspect that the John Pain who was murdered was the father of my John Pain; and if so, the father of your Elizabeth as well. I know their father is called John Pain, I just can't prove definitively that this John Pain and the murdered one are one and the same.
The two Elizabeths were christened on 04/11/1787 and 14/12/1794. I would presume the elder Elizabeth died in infancy, so they reused the forename; and that therefore your ancestor is probably the one from 1794.
Regards
Darren
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Hi David,
Many thanks for your reply. The murder makes fascinating reading. Were there many more brothers & sisters to Elizabeth?
Lynda
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Hi Lynda (who's David?) ;D
There were 9 siblings that I know about, as follows:
1780 John
1783 Joseph
1785 Sarah
1787 Elizabeth
1789 James
1792 William
1794 Elizabeth
1798 James
1800 Mary.
Darren
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Many thanks for that Darren!
Regards
Lynda
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This is a bit late now but....John Payne, sack carrier, was my 5x great grandfather. Born Heath, Beds., 1754 to John and Mary Payne/Pain. Married Ann Proctor at L. Buzzard 1780. All children born Billington - John 1780, Joseph 1783, Sarah 1785, Elizabeth 1787, James 1789, William 1792. Carried local farmers grain and crops to market at Hemel Hempstead once a week on commission, sleeping in his cart over the 2 or 3 days of the collection route and return route to pay sale proceeds. Murdered on return route outside the Red Lion at Dagnall 1817 by one of his customers, Daniel Munn, an early 'serial killer' who also confessed to killing his neighbour and his own wife. Sarah Payne, spinster daughter of the deceased, was one of the witnesses at the trial. A number of 'penny dreadful' broadsheets were produced for sale on the murder, one entitled “The execution and confession of Daniel Munn, (a small farmer, at Dagnall) of three murders and his intention of committing four others: Also his having been an accessory in the death of the watchman, of the Earl of Bridgwater. Who was tried July 25, and executed at Hertford, on Monday, the 28th ... “
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Hi Mark
Thanks for writing! It seems there are quite a few people descended from the murdered John Pain.
Did you notice on the previous page that the burial record showed that John was 56 at the time of death? So he can't be the one who was baptised in 1754. That's probably someone else with the same name (maybe a cousin or even older brother who died). But everything else is correct including the marriage to Ann Proctor. There were three other children after William 1792, including another Elizabeth whose descendant also wrote in this thread.