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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Carmarthenshire Lookup Requests => Carmarthenshire => Wales => Carmarthenshire Completed Requests => Topic started by: manaw on Monday 22 October 07 21:43 BST (UK)
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The 1841 census for Conwil Elvet seems to be missing from ancestry.co.uk. Either that or it is down under a different name.
My great grandfather was John P Davies of Maesdulais woollen factory, Llanarthney. He had a brother David Evan who became minister at Libanus Church Treforest. When he died DED had an obituary which referred to him as son of noted Baptist preacher Benjamin Davies and great grandson of the Rev Daniel Davies, founder of the Baptist church at Llandyssul.
Benjamin Davies can be traced via the census records to Conwil Elvet, whose Baptist Church is FfynonHenry. He was born in either 1817 or 1818. As well as being the noted Baptist preacher mentioned above Benjamin was a woollen factory manager. He was born in Conwil Elvet in 1817. I also think I have found his marriage record - 1847 carmarthen XXVI 645 Q3 JAS - married Mary.
There is a Daniel Davies of Capel Penybont Llandyssul who can be traced to the 1841 census and there is also a reoprt of his being excommunicated in the book "Hanes Plwyf Llandyssul" by the Rev W J Davies,1896.
However I can’t find trace of a Benjamin being grandson of the Dan Davies from Capel Penybont – there is no mention of a Benjamin at all in the census records associated with Daniel or with his farm Talgoed.
According to the newspaper clipping he would have been Daniel’s grandson. Daniel could have had more children not mentioned in the census. Looking at the census I can guess at 4 children for Daniel with the earliest being born in 1805. This would have been when Daniel was 39 so there is a distinct possibility that he had other older children, one of whom might have moved to Conwil Elvet where Benjamin was born.
Is anyone able to find out who was Benjamin Davies' father and any link with Daniel Davies of Capel Penybont? Christening records from Ffynonhenry should help.
All help gratefully received and appreciated.
thanks very much in advance.
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Welcome to Rootschat!
I think that Conwil Elfed might come under Abernant in 1841.
Oh the joy of trying to trace baptist ancestors! The one thing you won't find is christening records as Baptists don't christen. When the children are considered old enough to make their own decision, they become members of the church and undertake baptism. The age for this varies. For my Pembrokeshire Baptists around this time, normally around 15 or so, but one was already married with children when he became a member.
www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/ConwilElfed/index.html
suggests that there is a register for Ffynonhenry covering the years 1808-1842 at the National Library of Wales. Your profile has no location, so I don't know if you can get there yourself. If you can't, you will need to use a researcher who will do the work for you for a fee. There is a list on their website.
The LDS has filmed the register according to the Genuki page ref. 829068/2 - that might the way to start to see how much info there is in the register.
I've been to the NLW to check the records for a particular Baptist church and it wasn't hugely helpful. The records started off very detailed with every member given a number and when a new member was baptised, it often stated a relationship to a previous member. Then a different person took over the records, and wasn't so thorough. So with a common surname, not all that easy.
This site gives a good account of the Baptist movement
www.shropshirebaptist.org.uk/history.htm
hope some of this helps
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many thanks
I'll take a look at abernant tonight.
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Manaw i notice in 1851 Benjamin is still in Conwil Elvet with his wife and dau living on a farm Tyrshyme.
Going back to the 1841 census living on the same farm
Tirsime(spelt slightly different but same farm),Conwil Elvet
H0107/1383/7
Benjamin Davies,65,Farmer,Y
Mary Davies,55,Y
Possible parents of your Benjamin?
There is also a will Benjamin Davies died 1847 Conwil Elvet possibly the same man as above.
Another possiblilty is your going on the assumption that Benjamin Davies Grandfather is Daniel Davies as hes down as Great Grandfather in the obit of John however it could be
on the female side Davies is a popular name.Just an idea.As you cant find a link from Benjamin to Daniel.
Welsh Lady
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And the marriage you found above is Benjamin Davies to Mary Davies in Qtr Sept 1847 Carms Vol 26 Page 645.
This would make sense with what ive said about Daniel Davies being on the Mothers side of the family both sides are Davies.If this is the correct marriage,Id send for the cert so you have more info to go on.
Welsh Lady
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I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing it spelt Cynwyl Elfed when I was visiting the area. It might help with finding more information.
Mike.
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Dear all - this has been extremely helpful. I had all the right info staring me in the face. Mary Davies is indeed the grandaughter of Daniel Davies (I think :) ).
Daniel Davies is from Talgoed in Lanfihangel ar Arth. He died in 1843 but the 1841 census shows him living with John Davies aged 13 and Ann Davies aged 11. The 1851 census has David and Elizabeth Davies in residence with Ann (now 21), Daniel (18) and Mary (13) and James (4). This shows MAry to be born in 1828 which is exactly right for the story.
It seems likely to me that David is Daniel's son having inherited Talgoed. David and Elizabeth were living in Penrhyddfa in the 1841 census.
I ordered the marriage certificate of Benjamin and Mary last week and that should indeed confirm things (hopefully!).
Of course I still now need to find Benjamin in the 1841 census but I am happy to sit back for a day or two to revel in the latest findings.
thanks again
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got the last post wrong - I was on my way out to work and rushed it a bit. mary davies, granddaughter of daniel referred to above was born in 1838 not 1828. I'll have to wait for the marriage certificate to arrive.
thanks for the help Welsh Lady.
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Let us know what the marriage cert says
Welsh Lady
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bit of a disappointment with the marriage cert. dated sept 30th 1847 in Llanllawddog Parish Church between Benjamin Davies servant and Mary Davies servant. Her father's name is down as David Jacob, labourer and his is Richard Davies, weaver.
Llanllawddog isn't so far from conwil elved.
however neither Benjamin or Mary could write - they have just put their mark on the certificate.
this isn't really consistent with Benjamin being a Baptist preacher - he must have been able to read the bible so wouldn't have signed his mark - he would have used his signature. The father's occupation is identified as weaver - which is consistent with the fact that Benjamin went on to run woollen mills but it just doesn't stack up on balance.
never mind I'll keep ploughing on. I'm working my way through all the parishes in the area looking for Benjamins and Marys.
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another thought is that if I was able to work the other way I might get there. How would I go about finding out who were the children of Daniel Davies of Talgoed? he was 74 in the 1841 census so it isn't easy to track.
would anyone have records available from Penybont Baptist church in Llandysul that would illuminate!?
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If that Penybont Baptist comes under Llanfihangel yr Arth, according to Genuki, there are some documents at the National Library in Aberystwyth covering births 1801 -1865 and other documents covering 1845 - 1892 ref Ms 1099 - 1100A.
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thanks osprey
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Sadly doesnt look like the correct marriage cert .Id back track a bit and get John P Davies birth cert to confirm Mothers Maiden name is Davies.
Welsh Lady
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will report back when I have it - thanks
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I can find 16 John Davies' whose births were registered at carmarthen in 1858 which is the year I think he was born.
there is 1 john phillip davies registered at llandeilofawr in 1857.
the census shows that my john p davies was born either in llangathen or llanfynydd (2 differnt censuses say different birth locations for the same person).
my question is where would someone born in llangathen or llanfynydd have their birth registered? my instinct is to say carmarthen because his father came from conwil elvet but I would probably have to go and look at the records in person because it could get expensive to order all the certificates.
however it might be worth taking a punt on john phillip's cert if it turns out that people born in llangathen or llanfynydd were registered in llandeilofawr.
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both Llangathen and Llanffynydd come under Carmarthen. If youre using FreeBmd, click on the registration district you're interested in, then the highlighted here on the following page, you'll get a list of the parishes that are covered by that registration district.
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looks like they were llandeilofawr pre 1935
I've sent off for the birth cert - it's a good job they gave him two Christian names - John Davies is about as common as they get.
Also his birth was registered in June whilst the census was in April so the fact that he was 3 in the 1861 census is consistent with this.
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The birth certificate for John Phillip Davies tells us that his mother's maiden name was Evans. According to the census she lived previously at Pantyffynnon farm, Llangeler, with her parents John and Margaret.
I think I'm going to have to spend some time reading through the archives re FfynnonHenry and Penybont churches as I still don't see the link between Benjamin and Daniel. A list of the family of Daniel would be useful - by the time of the 1841 census he is an old man and his children will have mostly left home.
thanks to everyone for their help and pointers.
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I have found john p' birth cert. his mother was mary evans of pantyffynnon, llangeler. also believe I have found the marriage cert of benjamin & mary, registered in newcastle emlyn - it is on it's way so hopefully this will help. I had previously been looking for marriages registered in carmarthen.
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bit of success. not only have I ofund John P but I also have the marriage certificate of his parents benjamin and mary and it shows his father as being from tirsime in conwil elved and her parents being john and mary evans of pantyffynon in llangeler. (not sure about the exact derivation of tirsime - it is obviously ty'r s.... - just can't make out the last few letters in the word on the marriage cert - I can certainly find it in the 1841 census)
The 1851 record of pantyffynon shows that mary's mother Margaret was from Llanfihangel. The link I am looking for is between Margaret and the person I think is her father - Daniel Davies of Talgoed, Llanfihangel ar Arth.
What I need to do now is to check the marriage records of Margaret and John Evans at the Llanfihangel Parish Church which is St Michael's. I assume that being from Llanfihangel Margaret's marriage would have been recorded here.
I live in Lincoln but am planning a trip down to Carmarthenshire in February. If anyone had access to the marriage records of Llanfihangel from circa 1820 and could determine whether Margaret's parents were indeed Daniel and Ann I would be most grateful. Otherwise I will wait until Feb.
Diolch
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Glad you're getting somewhere with this. Unfortunately, fathers' names aren't given on pre-1837 marriages. One of the parents might appear as a witness or there might be some other useful info on the parish record.
I think Welsh Lady has some/all Carmarthenshire marriages for that period, so hope she sees this.
Have fun at the archives!
:D
ps - what is the house name on the census? It's making me think of an Italian pudding...
:D
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thanks osprey. the name appears in 1841 and 1851 as tirsime and tyrshyme. I can't find it on the OS map but I have found other houses adjacent to it in the census. It is near cwmduad and is either no longer in existence or has had it's name changed (probably to something like dunroamin :) )
the grid ref is SN 374 306 GB Grid and the nearby houses are danygribin and llyn y gwair
I did make some more progress last night in that I found pantyffynnon farm. encouragingly it is only about a mile or so from talgoed which is where daniel davies lived so it is looking increasingly likely that margaret was his daughter. took me some time to find pantyffynnon because it is supposedly in Llangeler but is actually nowhere near the village itself. grid ref SN 423 376 GB Grid is midway between the two houses.
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I have just found this Thread whilst searching the net and Tyrshyme, Cwmdaud does still exist.
My family the Thomas's lived at the farm from around 1871 onwards.
I have actually visited the Farm and have some photos if you are interested.
Andy.
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Many years have passed since I posted this - I'm just picking it up again. If you are still around Andy I would very much love to see the photos