RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => Topic started by: genuisscuffy on Thursday 25 October 07 18:42 BST (UK)
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I've been looking for awhile but my family tree is a bit difficult as I'm the only one left! (except a Grandfather with Alzheimers which can be really difficult!) - I'm looking for a Great Grandmother Elizabeth Sarah Montague born 1886 Father - George Richard Montague, she married Bert Broughton in Portsmouth Reg Office on 28 Sept 1907 (his father was Fred Broughton) I have the marriage cert - how do I find her Birth Cert/Death date? Also my Grandmother was born 21 July 1920 (Joan Louisa Fielder) and am looking for her father George Fielder (he was living at 28 Wiltshire Street, Southsea at the time of her birth reg) Many thanks I've come to a bit of a full stop with these until I can find out some facts - thanks
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Hi - and welcome to Rootschat
I had a look at your question and thought - oh should be able to find Elizabeth in the 1891 or 1901 census with all that information, but no joy yet - can't see George Richard either, nor can I see an obvious birth registration for her in England - is there any possibility she was born in another country?
What was George Richards Occupation on the wedding certificate?
Debbie
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I don't think so - apparently she was very flighty and married several times!
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Was Montague her maiden name - or a previous married name?
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Her maiden name - it says she was a spinster and father George Richard Montague
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I can't see them either. ???
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It says she lived at 25 Cecil Place, Southsea and her Father was a skilled labourer Hm Dockyard (Portsmouth I assume as Southsea is very near )
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I wonder if she is Bessie, aged 5, in the 1891 cesus? Living with her widowed mother at 18 Napier Road, Portsea.
RG12/876 folio 30 page 10
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I dont think so - she got married 28 Sept 1907 and it says she was 21 - so we are looking at 1886?
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Sorry amended the date of the census before you posted. :(
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I'm just thankful to you for looking - before Mum passed away I promised to start again (I started looking about a year ago but things got a bit difficult and had to stop ) thanks
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Mary H MONTAGUE widow aged 40 a cook, born Porchester
Charles H 23 born Cardiff, Wales
Eva H 16 born Manchester
Lily H 14 born Manchester
Harry H 12
William H 10
Bessie 5
Fred 5 all born Portsmouth
plus a visitor - James GIBSON aged 8
Polly BURFITT, a domestic servant aged 21.
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was that the 1901? Bessie 5 because my Great Grandmother would have been about 25
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No I think that is the 1891 - I like the look of it - I found a birth registration for an unamed female in Portsea reg dist in 1886 with a male same code - looks like twins and they didn't decide the names until later
Debbie
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That's 1891.
I can't see the family in any other census at the moment.
If Elizabeth was born in 1886 she would have been 5 in 1891,
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thats where I came unstuck when I sent off for the birth reg the fathers name is different - Charles montague not george richard
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The only deaths that I can find on freeBMD for the surname MONTAGUE in Portsea 1884 to 1891 were
Charles MONTAGUE aged 46 March quarter 1889
William MONTAGUE aged 64 June quarter 1885
Margery Kathleen MONTAGUE aged 0 Sept quarter 1890
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I did say things got a little stuck - thanks for looking anyway!
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I am wondering if as her father died beofre she was 5 years old, she could have given the wrong name for her marriage - just a thought
Debbie
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Quite possibly - the witnesses on her marriage cert were not her father - but wouldn't it have said deceased on it?
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Not always no
I have jsut found smoething - In 1891 Dec qtr a Mary Montague got married in Portsea reg dist - and one of the options for her spouse is George Richards, I am now wondering if this was where the mix up came and Elizabeth gave her step fathers name and somehow Montague got added to it
Debbie
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Don't you just wish you could ask them!!! It would be so much easier - so if it was her and her twin - I wonder if he survived?
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I have found the family in 1901
George Richards 43 boarding house keeper
Mary J Richards 52 born porchester Hants
William Richards 19 son
Bessie Richards 15 dau
Frederick Richards 15 son
Florence Richards 8 dau
All kids born Southsea - so it looks as though the Montague children that were still at home were useing their step dads surname
:)
Debbie
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Well he is still there in 1901 :D
I would say there is a good chance that the birth certificate you bought was the right one - what are the mothers details?
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Ohh well that does seem to sort that out - thank you so much - it clears a few things up!
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I think you've cracked it!
Well done Debbie.
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I've just dug out the birth cert (that I thought was a dud !) and it says: 2 April 1886 15 Addison Road, Southsea - girl - Charles Montague - Mary Jane Montague formerly Force - Photographer
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Well done everyone! I've been following and looking up but you beat me to it every time :D
But can you find them in '81 cos I'm blessed if I can?
Suey
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MMMM look what I found 1881 Porchester
Charles Force 41 commision agent born Bristol
Mary Force 32
Charles Force 13 born Somerset Bath
Evaline Force 6 born Glamorgan Swansea
Lillian Force 4 born Manchester
Harry Force 1 born Manchester
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Can you see a marriage for
Mary to Charles FORCE?
or
Mary to Charles MONTAGUE?
I'm struggling on freeBMD. :(
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sorry - having probs with computer - so does this mean she was married before to Charles Force (so Force isnt her maiden name?) then she married Charles Montague and then George Richards - is there something in my family that makes the women all marry several times!!!! (not me I hasten to add ....yet!!!)
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No I can't find it either - I have found Mary Force an unmarried cook in 1871 - the rest of the details match - so it doesn't look as though the eldest son Charles is hers. I am going squared eyed now, will have to give it a rest until tomorrow, but I think we are getting somewhere
Debbie
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Thanks for your help - night!
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Surely Mary shouldn't be a FORCE in 1871. ???
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Looking at the 1871 census entry....
It doesn't actually say that any of the children have the surname FORCE. For the other families on the page the childrens surname is dittoed but not the FORCE family.
Although it does say they are the son or daughter.
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The long line of H's for most of the children in 1871 suggests a previous surname, or at least a family name.
In 1901 (RG13/1005/13) there is a Charles E Hermann Montague listed as living in Portsmouth with his family. Looking at the original the middle name is actually Hannay and has been added afterwards.
Birth
Mar 1868
Charles Edwin Hannay Bath 5c 681
I guess this could be the one in the 1871 census (RG10/2482) under Charles Hanny - it could say Hanney on the original - with the rest of his family including a widowed mother Alice.
Richard
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The IGI has the following entry for Mary Jane FORCE
born 18 January 1848 baptised 1 March 1848 Porchester
parents Henry William and Sarah FORCE
Henry William FORCE married Sarah GRUBB 27 June 1831 Porchester
Henry William FORCE born 30 December 1810, baptised 14 April 1811 Porchester
parents William Henry and Martha FORCE
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Jun 1865
Charles Edwin Hannay m Alice Bishop
In 1871 Alice had three children (Alice, 1; Charles, 3; Ellen, 6).
In 1881 Alice (junior) is living with her maternal grandmother Maria Bishop. Perhaps both parents had died by then. Or perhaps Charles had run off with Mary Force under an assumed name.
Richard
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- apparently she was very flighty and married several times!
Perhaps they were referring to Elizabeth's mother!
This is one confusing family. ::)
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Do these help or confuse?!
Births:
Mar 1875
Evelyne Hannay Montague Cardiff 11a 280
Mar 1877
Lillian Hannay Montague Manchester 8d 245
'Normally' I would have said that the names suggested that these were the illegitimate children of a woman called Montague by a man called Hannay. The father does appear to be Charles Hannay but, even given the desire to look respectable, the changes of name are difficult to follow.
At the moment a very convoluted story would have Charles Hannay marrying Alice Bishop in 1865, by whom he had three children. He then left her sometime after 1871, spent time in Cardiff and Manchester between at least 1875 and c1879 with a woman called Montague, before leaving her to live with Mary Force in 1881. At various times he was called Hannay, Force (in 1881) and Montague. My guess is that the 1881 entry is a mistake - possibly caused by Mary calling herself Force and the enumerator assuming that was Charles' name. By 1891 Mary (still presumably Force) was calling herself Mary H(annay) Montague, which seems particularly bizarre.
All very confusing. I tried to find Charles in the 1871 census for Wales but there were no obvious candidates.
Richard
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Oh well done Richard on finding Evelyns birth I found Lillians but couldn't find Evelyns (or Harrys?)
I have found a possible birth for Charles Edwin Hannay the father
Births Mar 1841
Hanney Charles Edwin Bath 11 58
but can anyone see him on any census other than 1881 and a vague possible in Suffolk in 1871?
Debbie
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This could be him in 1851
from 1851 Bath Abbey
Margaret Dodd 67 head born cheshire Newton Mon
Charles Hanney 9 Gson
Martha Hanney 7 Gdau
William Hanney 17 Gson
Robert Tayler 23 Lodger
kids born Bath Somerset
Debbie
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I think that is him.
There are two candidates on the 1841 census. One is 9 weeks old in Corston, Bath (indexed as Chos) and can be tracked through to 1881 (indexed as Hannsey) in Essex, so is not the right person. The other is in Walcot (HO107/970/2), son of James and Elizabeth Hanny, which is the one you have in 1851.
Richard
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1841 Walcot HO107/970/2
James Hanny, 35+, butcher
Elizabeth Hanny, 35+
James Hanny, 12
William Hanny, 8
Henry Hanny, 6
Charles Hanny, 4m
This is a suitably dysfunctional family (!) as in 1851 James is living away from the family as an unmarried butcher's assistant; Elizabeth is a nurse living with/near Henry; James junior has joined the army; and Charles you have.
In 1861 Martha is still living with her grandmother Margaret Dodd (both with Martha's sister Ellen); but Charles has disappeared.
Richard
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This is a suitably dysfunctional family (!)
LOL ;D
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Do you think we may be adding two and two to get about eleven?
IF everything we have stated as possible is actually what took place then Charles Hanney would have done the following:
Mar 1841 Birth of Charles Edwin Hanney in Bath
1841 census Charles, 4 months old, living with family in Walcot, Bath
1851 census Father living as unmarried in Bath; mother living in Bath hospital with son
Charles living with brother and maternal grandmother
1861 census ??
Jun 1865 Marriage of Charles Edwin Hannay to Alice Bishop in Bath
Sep 1865 Birth of daughter Ellen Martha Hannay in Bath
Mar 1868 Birth of son Charles Edwin Hannay in Bath
Sep 1870 Birth of daughter Alice Maria Hannay in Bath
1871 census Alice Hanny living as a widow in Bath with above three children
Possible sighting in Ipswich (married lodger, 30, machinist) RG10/1751)
Some time around here Charles Hannay starts to live as Charles Montague
Mar 1875 Birth of daughter Evelyne Hannay Montague in Cardiff
Mar 1877 Birth of son Lillian Hannay Montague in Manchester
c1880 Birth of son Harry Hannay Montague ?? in Manchester/Portsmouth
(full name known as he married under that name in 1898)
1881 Living in Portsea as Charles Force, 41, commission agent, b Bristol with Mary Jane Force and children Charles, Evaline, Lillian and Harry.
c1881 Birth of son William H(annay) Montague in Portsmouth
Jun 1886 Birth of twins Elizabeth (Bessie) and Frederick in Portsea
Charles Montague is described as a photographer (!) on certificate
Mar 1889 Death of Charles Montague, aged 46, in Portsea
1991 census Mary H(annay) Montague, a widow, and all the children living in Portsea
All children also have surname H(annay) Montague.
Mary then remarries and all the children change their surname again.
It all seems a little odd. At least all the places Charles lived in were ports so his job as a commission agent fits, but it's an interesting life (if true) to say the least.
Richard
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I have just been in touch with a lady I found through Genes Reunited as she had Lillians birth details on there, she is a descendent of Harrys (no she can't find his birth reg either) I am hoping she will join us - or at least let me post the message she sent to me - though it doesn't add too much
Debbie
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And just as I was typeing the above - the lady I reffered to sent me this - I don't think she will mind me shareing it
Hi again, Yes I do have a copy of Lilians Birth Certificate on it Father is Charles Hannay Montague...wait for it, occupation Circus Manager, Mother is Mary Montague formerly Force. I will try the link to roots Kind regards Joy.
So we are wrong about some bits - but perhaps he adopted Montague cos it sounded good for a circus manager
;D
Debbie
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Hi - and welcome to Rootschat
I had a look at your question and thought - oh should be able to find Elizabeth in the 1891 or 1901 census with all that information, but no joy yet - can't see George Richard either, nor can I see an obvious birth registration for her in England - is there any possibility she was born in another country?
What was George Richards Occupation on the wedding certificate?
Debbie
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Hi Joy - A very big welcome to Rootschat, glad to see you found us , as you can probably see we have been picking away at it
Debbie
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So if he was with Mary Force in 1877 it's even more bizarre that they should use the surname Force in 1881.
It looks as if Charles' first wife re-married under her maiden name after he left:
Alice Maud Bishop m Thomas Sansom in Mar 1879
1881: Thomas Sansom, 30; Alice Sansom, 34, b Beach, Glos; Ellen Sansom, 14, b Bath
Richard
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Hi, I hope I can help, Elizabeth Sarah Montague and her twin Frederick both had a private baptism on 08/04/1886 6 days after their birth. Mary Jane Force was born in Portchester 18/01/1848 her father was Henry William force also of Portchester, However, I have not been able to find a marraige for Mary to Charles Montague. I also have a birth certificate for Evelyn Hannay born 24/11/1874 in Cardiff, Charles registered the birth and has put his occupation as house painter. I know later in life he did become a photographer as did his son Harrry. I had almost given up on Charles and have not looked at this line of the family for over a year!
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I wonder if the use of his 'partners' surname indicates that he was hiding a bit maybe the circus bussiness didn't go well and he wanted to dissapear (again) - its a long way from Manchester to Portsmouth.
What a fascinating family, what are your thoughts on what we have found Joy?
Debbie
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I wonder if the use of his 'partners' surname indicates that he was hiding a bit
His partner's name was Force. Do we know where Montague came from?
Richard
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Sorry - that wasn't very clear - I meant in 1881 when they turn up in Portsmouth.
I would also like to know what happened to wife Alice - I can't seem to see a death for her!
Debbie
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She re-married I think - see post higher up the page.
Richard
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I think I am getting more confused than ever, the death for Charles Montague in 1889 is him because Mary states that she is a widow in the 1891 census and the George Richards that she remarried is also living at the same address as her.
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Sorry Richard I missed that one somehow - so although it seems that Charles wasn't a bigamist it looks like his first wife was. I have been Googleing circuses and combinations of the names - but I'm not comming up with anything
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Perhaps Mary was a bit of a joker or the Registrar misheard her when she registered the birth?
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Wow, havent you all done well - I am so impressed!! I've just got in from work and found all your wonderful messages - it means so much to put a few more names on my family tree - so thank you all.
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Last year I found in Portsmouth Reg Office some things with the family but wasnt sure I had the right Montague (diff fathers names):-
Elizabeth Sarah Montague born 2 April 1886 private bapt 8/4/86 (which is my Great Grandmother)daughter Charles and Mary 15 Addison Road, Southsea, Photographer
Evelyn Hanney Montague Born 14/nov/1875 bapt 24/11/1886 15 Granville Road, Southsea Photographer
Frederick Montague Born 2/4/1886 bapt 8/4/1886 received 14 May 1886(?)
15 Addison Road, Southsea Photographer
Henry William Hannay Montague Born 18 June 1880 Bapt 24.11/1886
15 Granville Road, Southsea Photographer
Lillian Hanney Montague Born 21.11/1877 Bapt 24 Nov 1886 Photographer
Whether this is any help?
I know my GGrandmother married several times - the first to Bert Broughton, then she either had my Grandmother out of wedlock because there is no trace of a marriage with George Fielder, and towards the end my Mum remembered her as Nanny Hogg (so whether she remarried again I dont know)
Again, many thanks to everyone
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I wonder if there is any reference to Charles MONTAGUE, photographer, in a trade directory?
There are none for the Portsmouth area for this time on the Historical Directories site.
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What are Trade Directories (obviously listing trades but who would have them?)
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Portsmouth records office would have some. You may be lucky and find that a rootschatter has one.
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The Hampshire Genealogical Society have some directories at their searchroom in Drayton, near Portsmouth, if you are a member.
http://www.hgs-online.org.uk/hgs_research_room.htm
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Hi, I was visiting my Grandad in his care home today and he was having a good day! So I asked very gently if he remembered Nan's mum hoping he would give me something! Apparently she used to be a dancer in the Royal Theatre (in Portsmouth) and she married the doorman (on my Nan's birth cert the father is listed as a commissionaire so I wonder if this is the same thing) and she liked men in uniform (! dont we all!!!!)
Anyway, is there any way I can find any pictures etc or names of dancers in the Royal - I know the first burnt down and theyve restored it - any ideas?
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There's a history of the Theatre Royal on this site:
http://www.newtheatreroyal.com/newseason/pages/history/
You could try the Portsmouth Records Office, the Hampshire Records Office or the local paper.
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I just wanted to say thank you to you all for your help it is much appreciated - one final plea can anyone find a marriage between Elizabeth Sarah Montague and a George Fielder (Nan was born 21/7/1920 and he is listed as her Father but I cant actually find a marriage?) I know Elizabeth married a Bert Broughton in 1907 and later on in years remarried a Hogg - so if any one can help with dates it would really help - thanks
:)
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Hi sorry, I was trying to make some sort of sense out of this today! I'm a bit confused as to when Charles was born?
Mar 1841 Charles Edwin Hanney was born in Bath
Jun 1865 Marriage of Charles Edwin Hannay to Alice Bishop in Bath
Mar 1868 Birth of son Charles Edwin Hannay in Bath (? is this the son of the 1841 Charles - it cant be Elizabeths Father because her sister was born in 1875 which would make him 7 when she was born!
Am I getting totally confused and mixing up the 1841 Charles as her Father?
help???? ???
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(? is this the son of the 1841 Charles -
Yes.
See page 4 for a possible 'biography' of the elder Charles.
Richard