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Research in Other Countries => Canada Lookup Request => Canada => Canada Lookup Requests Completed => Topic started by: daval57 on Tuesday 30 October 07 18:17 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm unsure if this is the correct place to post this.
Trying to find descendants of Elphinstone Mather born 1889 in Glasgow, Scotland.
I believe his wife was Kate E Mather (I don't know maiden name), who was living at 1657 Haro St., Vancouver at the time of his death in 1918 (killed in action in France).
I'm unsure when he emigrated to Canada but was still in Glasgow on the 1901 census.
I live in Glasgow and have no knowledge of how to trace Canadian genealogy so any help would be appreciated.
I'd also be interested in any info about his time as editor of the Winnipeg Telegram.
I have Elphinstone's maternal grandmother's line (Forrest) back to circa 1750 and thought someone might be interested.
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Here are his attestation papers.........
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc010/488640a.gif
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc010/488640b.gif
Karen
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You can search the 1911 Canadian census for free at www.automatedgenealogy.com
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He's on the 1911 in Winnipeg, occupation Editor. He says his year of immigration is 1903.
Karen
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If you go the Manitoba Vital Statitics you will find his marriage to Kate Elsworth Stovell August 28, 1915
http://web2.gov.mb.ca/cca/vital/ListView.php
Karen
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Death Registration for
Kate Ellsworth Mather
Age 69
Death Date: June 15, 1961
Place of Death: Victoria, British Columbia
Reg. No. 1961-09-007338
Karen
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Do you have this already ??
In memory of
Captain ELPHINSTONE FORREST MATHER
who died on April 9, 1918
Military Service .....
Age - 29
Force - Army
Unit - Canadian Infantry (Manitoba Regiment)
Division - 8th Bn.
Additional Information -
Son of Mr. and Mrs. William Mather, of Glasgow, Scotland - husband of Kate E. Mather, of Vancouver. Editor of the "Winnipeg Telegram" prior to enlisting in 44th Bn. C.E.F., 1915. Passed Cambridge Staff College course with honours, 1917.
Commemorated on Page 468 of the
First World War Book of Remembrance.
Burial Information ..........
Cemetery -
ECOIVRES MILITARY CEMETERY
Pas de Calais,France
Grave Reference: 1917. VI. L. 11.
Location - Mont St Eloi is a village in the Department of the Pas-de-Calais, 8 kilometres north-west of Arras. The village stands on high ground overlooking the battlefields of Vimy and Souchez and the main Bethune-Arras road, and the ruined towers that rise from it were used as an observation post during the French attacks at Neuville-St Vaast and Givenchy in May 1915. Ecoivres is a hamlet lying at the foot of the hill, to the south-west and about 1.5 kilometres from Mont St Eloi on the Arras-St Pol line. The ECOIVRES MILITARY CEMETERY is on the D49 road.
Annie
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Karen,
You are amazing ;D
Thanks for the info and the tips.
I do have the CWGC info and all info about him before he left Scotland but the rest of the info you're giving me is new. TOO fast for me to keep up. I'll need to take time to digest it all.
Really appreciate your help. I should have had higher expectations!
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Annie, sorry, never saw you creeping up on me there :-*
With all the replies from Karen in quick succession, I just assumed the next one would be from her as well.
Are you stalking me now? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Dave
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Your welcome Dave :)
With respect to information from the Winnipeg newspaper, JJ is from there and will be able to direct you to more information about that I'm sure.
On www.ancestorsonboard.com there is a E. Mather sailing from Glasgow to the USA in 1903 age 21. I don't have credits for that site. I did check www.ellisisland.org but didn't find him :-\
Karen
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I should have also said, you can order his full military file from Library and Archives Canada. There can be alot of information in them. Since he did die during the war, I would assume a copy of his will, will be in the file as each fellow had to write out their will by hand in the back of their pay books.
Karen
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Annie, sorry, never saw you creeping up on me there :-*
With all the replies from Karen in quick succession, I just assumed the next one would be from her as well.
Are you stalking me now? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Dave
I got the information from the Canadian site ! .... I'm looking to see if there is a picture of his grave !
and as to the second question .... you wish !! ;D
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and as to the second question .... you wish !! ;D
ROFL ;D
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This is where I got your soldier Dave ....... you can take a copy of the Rememberance page for your site !
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Detail&casualty=65776
They're having technical difficulties on the war graves site ..... so I'll try later !
Annie :)
PS I meant to say ... if we can't get a picture of his grave on line .... I might be able to get a friend to take one ... if you'd like it !!
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Cheers guys.
I already have the CWGC image of the remembrance page.
http://www.cwgc.org/search/certificate.aspx?casualty=65776
Think it will be the same as the one on the site you mention.
A photo of his actual grave would be amazing.
Dave
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It's different ! :)
I'll try for the grave ..... I LOVE having those pictures !!
Annie :)
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There's Christmas stockings and then there are Annie's Hallowe'en stalkings....
re: Winnipeg Telegram- I will have to see if there are publications on microfiche..J.J.
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A painting by his wife...but no on line link, unfortunately....
http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/sn-4994EDA/cgi-bin/text2html/.visual/img_txt/dir_92/pdp02594.txt
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In case they may have had a daughter, and this is perhaps more than coincidence, as the name is "Elphinstone Mather Russel"...
I haven't found a Mather / Russell connection though...
http://www.library.ubc.ca/archives/pdfs/chronicle/AL_CHRON_1945_04.pdf
http://www.library.ubc.ca/archives/pdfs/senate/UBC_Senate_Minutes_1976_05_19.pdf
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On www.ancestorsonboard.com there is a E. Mather sailing from Glasgow to the USA in 1903 age 21. I don't have credits for that site. I did check www.ellisisland.org but didn't find him :-\
Thanks for this link Karen, He's there ;D ;D ;D
EFS Mather, 17 in 1905 Glasgow to Montreal.
You guys are just brilliant - I can't keep up with all this.
JJ I haven't even looked at your links yet but as you say "Elphinstone Mather" is a good clue.
I've actually been really fortunate when it comes to tracing both my dad's line and mum's line. With names like Elphinstone Forrest and Cornelius Fortune you can't go far wrong. At the last count I had 15 of each in my tree.
I got on to Elphinstone Forrest Mather by the same logic as you've linked to Elphinstone Mather Russell.
Thanks again guys. And to think I had doubts that I was posting in the correct forum ::)
Dave
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HI Daval,
With crossing checking ships that arrived from Glasgow in 1905 in Montreal on the Library and Archives Site and Ancestors on Board site, here is the passenger list with Mr. Mather on it. He is headed to Brandon, Manitoba initially.
Ship: SS Sicilian
Date of Departure: September 2, 1905 - Glasgow
Date of Arrival: September 12, 1905 - Montreal
He is on page 5
Go to http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/archivianet/passenger/001045-100.01-e.php?PHPSESSID=qo37ji9fop4ntgsfre973b7gg3 and you can view the original image yourself.
Karen
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Hello Dave
University of B.C. MA Thesis
Elphinstone Russell: A Historical Sketch of Roman Law (1938)
http://www.arts.ubc.ca/index.php?id=3555
From the University of British Columbia's library catalogue further details of the thesis:
Title: A historical sketch of Roman law, by Elphinstone Mather Russell.
Main Author: Russell, Elphinstone Mather.
Published: [Vancouver] : University of British Columbia, 1938.
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Location: I.K Barber Learning Centre ASRS
Call Number: LE3 .B7 1938 A8 R8 H5
Number of Items: 1
Status: Available
Subject(s): Roman law.
Description: 168 leaves : ill. ; 28 cm.
Series: University of British Columbia. Dept. of Classics. Thesis. M.A., 1938.
Notes: Thesis (M.A.)--University of British Columbia, 1938.
Includes bibliographical references.
Burial info for Kate:
MATHER, Kate Ellsworth Stovel
Cemetery: Royal Oak Burial Park (Burial Permit)
Location: Victoria, Falaise Drive
Region: Vancouver Island
Reference: VGS-ROBP-BP
http://www.islandnet.com/cgi-bin/ms2/rsd/search
Note: Ethelwyn Alice Mather, George Hibberd Mather, Richard Mather and William Mather all have the same reference number. There is most likely a relationship to Kate - children and their spouses???
I've sent you a personal email re living decendants.
Cheers,
Linda
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I cannot believe how far we got with this enquiry in 12 hours. Yep, posted this at 18.17 yesterday (my time!).
I really must thank you all for your input.
I haven't been lazy either. I found all Elphinstone's brothers and sisters in Glasgow (courtesy of free Ancestry trial - otherwise I would have had to buy census records from SP) and see that only his older sister went with him to Canada.
I'm now going to try and trace relatives in this country too.
Thanks again guys - I'm well chuffed. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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If you are looking for a photograph of Elphinstone's gravesite you may want to check out
www.mapleleaflegacy.ca .
Follow the instructions on the site..
I requested one for my husband's uncle who died in WW1 and I received a lovely photo.
You may already have his burial location but in case you don't he is buried at Ecoivres Military Cemetery
Pas de Calais, France
This is a wonderful site and one people may not be aware of.
Regards from Canada
Lilybell
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Thanks, I'll have a look. I have some stuff from the CWGC site so it may be similar.
Dave
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Hi Lillybell,
Just had a look and although I found an entry for him, there is no photo uploaded yet. The notation is taken straight from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site and I already have his entry from that.
You might want to have a look at the site if you are not aware of it. Try looking for your uncle and compare it with mapleleaflegacy.
http://www.cwgc.org/
I'd be interested to know whether the photos are the same.
Dave
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I went back to www,mapleleafelegacy.ca and I see that Ecoivres Military Cemetery has been done.
All you need to do is send them a e-mail with your ancestors particulars requesting a photo..Follow the instructions posted on site. I had to wait a while before I received mine. No charge for the photo but donations accepted.
Have you checked out the Canadian Virtual War Memorial.? That is where I found Elphinstone.
You can submit a picture of your ancestor on the site.
Have you sent for his attestation papers? The cost is about $ 30.00 Canadian and well worth the money. Makes for some very interesting reading.It can take a while to receive the papers as they are always backed up.
Regards,
Lilybell
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Judging by the posting from Linda, and the timeframe of the thesis by the younger Elphinstone....this may be the sister's son...as reading through once again, they were only married in 1915....awe, such a short time together.... :'(
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Also saw a death for a William Mather Russel... who was born early 1900's
http://search.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/sn-501DB6D/gbsearch/Births,Marriages,Deaths
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This may well be the same Kate, then, as she was in Victoria...
Transcript of an interview with Mrs. Kate Mather concerning Emily Carr. ( circa 1957)
http://www.library.ubc.ca/archives/u_arch/walker1.html
Kate had shops in Victoria and was a tennant of Emily Carr's ( she is a well known Canadian artist!)...She had Emily make some clay works for her shops...wow, what a prized possession that would be to have one of those works!
http://friendsofbeaconhillpark.ca/nl/nl_022002.pdf
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Kate had shops in Victoria and was a tennant of Emily Carr's ( she is a well known Canadian artist!)...She had Emily make some clay works for her shops...wow, what a prized possession that would be to have one of those works!
http://friendsofbeaconhillpark.ca/nl/nl_022002.pdf
That was one of the questions on Do you Think you Are Smarter than a 5th Grade Canadian last week ;D What was the woman's name in Canada's famous Group of 7 :)
Karen
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Not sure exactly when I am getting down to the leg. library....but what am I looking for? I can see if there are copies of the editions of the paper...and if he was a vocal editor, then he may have something of note in there...or were you wanting something else, can't remember? There will likely be an obit for him....am I looking for it or will it merely duplicate all that you have?
Let me know so that it can be added to the wish list ;D J.J.
Plus Karen I had p.m'd you regarding what the census listing was for Elphinstone...as I couldn't find it. ::)
also..Karen, you should report that you are having trouble with that feature, as it seems an odd glitch...... :P
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Initially I was only looking for any info on descendants of Elphinstone and Kate and perhaps any reference to Elphinstone of his time as Editor.
To be honest, I haven't had time to get my head round all the information you've supplied.
Due to a family bereavement, I've had to put things to the side.
I'll get back to this but thanks to all for your help so far.
Dave
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Hello Dave
Whenever you resume your search, I suspect some of the names below may be children of Elphinstone and Kate. They all have the same grave reference number.
Burial info for Kate:
MATHER, Kate Ellsworth Stovel
Cemetery: Royal Oak Burial Park (Burial Permit)
Reference: VGS-ROBP-BP
Note: Ethelwyn Alice Mather, George Hibberd Mather, Richard Mather and William Mather all have the same reference number. There is most likely a relationship to Kate - children and their spouses???
You could try contacting the cemetery to establish the relationship. http://www.robp.ca/contactus.shtml
Here is a Kate Stovel on the 1911 census in Winnipeg with her family:
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/Test16.jsp?id=33375
Linda
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So very sorry for your recent loss...Dave...It changes some things in one's life does it not? It sometimes feels as though I am looking at the world through different eyes....
and speaking of eyes "my eyes, my eyes!"
was at the leg. library ( LUCKY ME ...I could live there...)
But was disappointed to find that there wasn't an obit for him in his own newspaper...if there was, it wasn't within a reasonable date of the actual death...I think we need to go a different route, if you want to and I'll try looking around the time he enlisted, as they may have something on that...
I saw many listed who were headed out....
Henderson Directory listings:
1910- Mather E.F.S Reporter Telegram - 51 Steele-Blk
1911- Mather Elphinstone F.S. municipal reporter "Telegram" - h suite 27 Tourraine BLK
1912- Mather Elphinstone F.S. Asst news editor Telegram - suite 6 Prince Rupert (380 Ellice)
1913- Mather Elphinstone F.S. editor Telegram h - 5 Prince Rupert
1914- Mather E. Forrest S. city editor r. - 80 Spence
1915- Mather E. Forrest emp r - 80 Spence
Telegram Printing was at 344 McDermot ( Albert @ McDermot)
Don't know if this building still exists...
all the best, J.J.
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Plus I forgot to write Kate's name down and search for her...Mustn't forget the ladies...Although the directories only would have her listed if she was working... Not always likely in THOSE days ::) J.J.
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By the by- Elphinstone was never the "chief" editor, unfortunately...although he seemed to be trying to work his way up there...I was hoping to find an image of him listed on the main business listing but he never was on it, just the chief's name...and other head columnists.
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I'm sorry everyone, I got distracted and haven't come back to this thread for a while but it is on my 'agenda'.
I will return very soon.
Thanks so much for all the responses.
JJ What is the Henderson Directory?
As an aside, Elphinstone is a family name. My cousin Brian that died recently (only 53) was the son of an Elphinstone Forrest, my da's closest brother. I was Brian's best man at his wedding.
Having a name like Elphinstone in the family has been a huge plus in helping me trace family. I've found 17 Elphinstone's, all directly linked to my family. That does not include other Elphinstone's, such as Elphinstone Forrest Mather . It makes me feel really proud that the name was and still is out there. That is one of the reasons I started this post - to try and get in touch with any descendents of Elphie Mather - I can show them their ancestry back to 1750ish.
I prattle too much......sorry.
In case you've forgotten what this was about........
JJ what is Hendersons?
Dave
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Hi Dave...
It is the Winnipeg business directory in use at the time...and a wonderful source, but only good for cross-referencing if the person was working at the time...or used enough of their name to recognize them....They are all on a microfilm for each year they were in business....
J.J.
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Hi Dave,
I notice that you have East Lothian connections, I was born there at a place called Tranent, next to the mining village of Elphinstone. Do you think he got the name from the place, or did one of your ancestors name the place?
Tom
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start again.... You are welcome David...
I am glad that you appreciated the information re: his time as editor of the Winnipeg Telegram.
J.J.
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Tidybooks, Elphinstone village is one of the places I have considerd as the origin of the name. I'm really not sure. There was also a Lord Elphinstone that I'm surte your aware of. There is also an Elphins Parish in Ireland.
This is another reason I'm trying to find out as much as possible about all the Elphinstone's in my family. I'm hoping that the more information I can gather about anyone with the name will help me get my family further back than I have.
Dave
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All this information is fantastic.
I really appreciate all the effort that has been put into this.
JJ in particular got some brilliant info, not to detract from everyone elses efforts. Amazing stuff JJ.
I'd never heard of Hendersons before but will watch for that in the future.
I will be adding all these facts to my personal site as soon as possible so that other members of my family can share it.
As I said in earlier posts, I just need time to get my head round it - more important things to think about just now - actual deaths mean more to me than those of ancestors that I wish I knew more about.
Thank you all.
Dave
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I've now added this info to my site.
Now that I've had time to take it all in, I realise properly how much effort you guys have put in.
Sorry if I didn't show proper appreciation in earlier posts.
Thanks again.
Waiteohman - Ta for the PM - I'm hoping to get a phone call, letter or email.
Dave
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HeeHee... ;D Nice avatar, Dave...Whatever does it mean?? ::) J.J.
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Twas for your benefit JJ.
Glad you appreciated it. ;D ;D ;D
Dave
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Did we ever find this info?
Obit was as E. Forrest Mathers ! (Not using usual first name and misspell of surname so why it never came up in earlier OCR searches) http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/collections/virtualmem/photoview/65776/134024
Also one site has Kate's address as 1657 Haro St. Vancouver B.C. / the obit says she was residing with the Mather family in Scotland at the time, with a daughter) I imagine to be closer to him...so she must have then moved back to Canada shortly after his death, brave gal. Perhaps may have been some family in B.C.
So if the lad we found was hers she'd have pregnant when EFSM died...or the lad could be his sister's perhaps???
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,265180.msg1502056.html#msg1502056
Yes, the sister's lad!...Just found this, the lad was born Thunder Bay Ontario to father William & Marion F.S. Mather ( Marion Forrest Mather!) http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ub1/
William Mather Russel born 1906 Winnipeg, then Wilfred Laurus/Laurier Russell born Thunder Bay Ontario 1911, Elphinstone Mather Russel born Thunder bay Ontario 1912, and John Walker Russel born/died B.C. 1914 Lucky, even a few spouses and death dates...
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a death for Marion Forrest Struthers Russell, Vancouver B.C, 1930 / Parents William Mather & Agnes S Kennedy https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FL2D-W5B
1911 shows a Kenneth born Saskatchewan, they moved around a lot! http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=56065
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I am a descendant of Elphinstone Mather.
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I am a descendant of Elphinstone Mather.
Hi Kusawa, Elphinstone Forrest Struthers Mather is my 2C2R and descended from the first Elphinstone Forrest, 1798-1866, my 3xg grandfather.
How are you descended from Elphinstone Mather?
Have you or any of your family ever underaken any DNA testing? It would be interesting to compare results if you have, although our blood connection is possibly too distant to show a DNA match..
Dave Forrest, Glasgow, Scotland.
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Elphinstone Mather is my great grandfather. He married Kate Stovel and had my Grandfather , Elphinstone Richmond Mather. E.R. Mather married Barbra Holderman in 1942 and they had 5 children, and 11 grandchildren, which I am one of. Never had any DNA testing done. Although my dad was in Scotland a few years ago and was looking for relatives. He did meet a Jean Mather there.
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Nice to meet you Kusawa.
Mount Florida in Glasgow where Elphinstone Forrest Struthers Mather was born is only a 10 minute walk from where I live.
The name Elphinstone as a forename has been passed down through many lines from Elphinstone that was born in 1798.
In fact my Dad's closest brother was called Elphinstone Forrest.
I've got a great deal of information on the Forrest family, many of them still living in Scotland, but I also have contacts all over the world.
If you are interested, I'll happily send you an invite to my tree on Ancestry. Just let me know your email address.
I only knew Elphinstone Richmond Mather was born about 1917 and have never researched his subsequent life.
The attached photo is of a memorial in Clincarthill Parish Church in Mount Florida. You'll see that there is a mention of an Elphinstone Forrest on there. Very appropriate to share this today of all days.
I'm aware Elphinstone Mather died in France in WW1 too.
Lest We Forget.
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Elphinstone’s wife, Kate Ellsworth Stovel (Mather), came from a prominent Winnipeg publishing family. I have further information on her ancestry and descendants for anyone interested.