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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: bonzo on Wednesday 07 November 07 16:34 GMT (UK)
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Information required on Thomas Pepper born c 1863 in Manchester , living
with mother in Chorlton on Medlock Lancs on the 1871 census , on the 1881
census living with grandmother at Earl St boughton in Salford, no sign on 1891 census. on the 1901 census living Llanbeblig Caernarvonshire married
with family.
Regards bonzo
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Bonzo
I can't help you much with Thomas Pepper but if you have a look around Keith Morris' excellent site Caernarfon Traders you may dig something up.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~wlsccaer/contents.html
I've had a quick look around and, although I couldn't see any sign of Thomas Pepper as a tailor there is an Edward Pepper (his son on the 1901?) as a Tailor in 28 Pool Street in the 1930's etc. By the 60's the address has E Barnet Pepper as an Optician.
The newpapers in 1916 mentioned a Chris Pepper of Bank Quay (same area as the 1901 address you have) who had been wounded three times in WW1. he, apparently, was with the 2nd RWF.
The town War Memorial has a T Kennedy Pepper. He died 28/5/1917 and is buried at the local St Peblig Parish Church. He sewrved as Thomas Kennedy. The parish burial book which names him as Thomas Kennedy Pepper gives his address as 30 Wesley Street and he was 46 years old. I cannot readily tie him to your family or indeed find him in the locality on the 1901.
Gwil
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Edward Barnet Pepper died a few weeks ago aged 90, but his son Michael still runs the opticians at Pool Street. Perhaps you could get in touch with him. http://www.barnetpepper.co.uk/team.htm
There is another Pepper family in Caernarfon, but I don't think they are related.
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I am a family member of the pepper family from Caernarfon. Thomas Kennedy would of been my great great grandfather x
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I am a family member of the pepper family from Caernarfon. Thomas Kennedy would of been my great great grandfather x
Hi I realise this is a very old thread, but just where did the possible "Kennedy" middle name for a Thomas Pepper b c 1863 Manchester occ Tailor who "Married" c 1886 come from?
Did Thomas/Elizabeth/Eliza also have a Catherine Ellen Pepper June qtr 1898 Carnavon 11b 469
Winifred Elizabeth Pepper September qtr 1901 Carnavon 11b 422
Margaret Matilda Pepper September qtr 1904 Carnavon 11b 442
All mmn Jones ( Same as 1901)
Seem to be in Hay, Brecon in 1911?
Keyboard86
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Hi There.
I know very little about Thomas Pepper. When I started the thread in 2007 it was for a friend who
did not have a computer.
Regards Bonzo
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Hi There.
I know very little about Thomas Pepper. When I started the thread in 2007 it was for a friend who
did not have a computer.
Regards Bonzo
Hi so which of the children of Thomas & Elizabeth is your friends ancestor?
Keyboard86
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Hi ... I was always told as a child that PEPPER was not the family surname, that the family surname was KENNEDY ... Thomas had stole a lamb/sheep?? and had ran away over to Ireland from the justice system and picked up the name Pepper before he eventually returned back here. My grandfather Robert Pepper was Christopher's son (so would of been Thomas's grandson) x
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I am a family member of the pepper family from Caernarfon. Thomas Kennedy would of been my great great grandfather x
Hi and welcome to Rootschat, so similar question which of his children is your direct ancestor, is the family in 1901/11 him married to an Elizabeth?
Keyboard86
EDIT See it was the son of Christopher!!
And was Thomas a Tailor?
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I have been trying to research my family tree recently.
Thomas Pepper was my great grandfather.
In the 1901 census Thomas is 35 years old and living with his wife Elizabeth, and three sons Edward Thomas (Ted) my grandfather, along with Christopher and Joseph. Thomas is shown as a tailor and born in Manchester, there is a an 1881 census entry for Thomas pepper then aged 16 yrs old, living with his grandmother Ann Pepper and working as a pawn broker asst which matches agewise but I have no evidence to prove that its the same man.
As Thomas was 35 in 1901 , he would have been 51 in 1917 and so doesn't match with the thomas kennedy on the cenotaph who was 47 when he died in june 1917 ( he died in Chester Royal Infirmary) The Forces War Record site gives no further detail or next of kin.
Having said that my aunt says that her grandfather (Thomas Pepper) was a signaller during WW1 based in the Marconi base (Waunfawr?)
If anyone has any info on the Marconi base, I would be very interested.
I have no idea what Elizabeth's maiden name was so I cant get any further with that family line either ???
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat, this family for some time I have had problems with, and do not record their correct places of birth census on census, so as Edward Thomas Pepper was your grandfather, would I be correct he married a Lydia Evans in 1916 and lived in Pool Street in 1939?
Was his birth Edward Thomas Pepper Dec qtr 1889 Dolgelly v118 page 327 mothers maiden name Jones?
Christopher Pepper looks to be the one born Sept qtr 1892 Festiniog again mothers maiden name Jones?
Keyboard86
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Hello,
yes that's right, Lydia was my nain. I didn't realise that they lived at 39 Pool st in 1939 but he did run a mens outfitters shop from no. 28 which is where my cousin runs the Optician.
Thank you for giving me Thomas's wife's maiden name- I didn't know it was Jones!
Thank you for your help.
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Hello,
yes that's right, Lydia was my nain. I didn't realise that they lived at 39 Pool st in 1939 but he did run a mens outfitters shop from no. 28 which is where my cousin runs the Optician.
Thank you for giving me Thomas's wife's maiden name- I didn't know it was Jones!
Thank you for your help.
;) I did not say what number in Pool st in 1939 but for your information it was number 28!
Have you the marriage certificate of the couple, or Edward T birth certificate?
Keyboard86
PS a Christopher Pepper 19 b Merionith is a Private in the South Wales Borderers in Brecon in 1911, and if you google Marconi Waunfawr you will find a lot of info.
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Oh dear ! sorry, I'm seeing things now.
I did try and apply for Thomas and Elizabeth's marriage certificate via GRO but got the following response "We have searched the indexes for events registered in England and Wales during the years specified (1882-1884). We have been unable to find an entry that matches all the details supplied in your application." But I didn't have Elizabeth's maiden name then so I can try again now.
I don't have the birth certificate for Edward Thomas Pepper I'm afraid.
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Hi again, their is also a Probate record for Edward Thomas Pepper of Bryn Menai North Road Canarvon died 28th December 1948 Probate Bangor 1st March to Lydia Pepper Widow Effects £2022 14s
It is highly possible they did not marry, it is either the marriage certificate of Edward T and Lydia or that birth certificate in Dolgelly that may give clues for you?
A Family tree on Ance*** suggests Edward Thomas Pepper was baptised 11th December 1889 Eglwys Llandecwyn Sir Feirionydd?
And buried 31st December 1948 Mynwent Eglwys, Llanbeblig.
Keyboard86
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I am a family member of the pepper family from Caernarfon. Thomas Kennedy would of been my great great grandfather x
Hi I realise this is a very old thread, but just where did the possible "Kennedy" middle name for a Thomas Pepper b c 1863 Manchester occ Tailor who "Married" c 1886 come from?
Did Thomas/Elizabeth/Eliza also have a Catherine Ellen Pepper June qtr 1898 Carnavon 11b 469
Winifred Elizabeth Pepper September qtr 1901 Carnavon 11b 422
Margaret Matilda Pepper September qtr 1904 Carnavon 11b 442
All mmn Jones ( Same as 1901)
Seem to be in Hay, Brecon in 1911?
Keyboard86
Also this family, who have a Thomas occ Bespoke Tailor in 1911 who suggests they have been married 25 years?
It is the Joseph Pepper in 1901 and on this 1911 b c 1895 that puzzles me, cannot locate a birth but he if I am correct says he was born 1st July 1896 and "marries" an Annie and dies as Joseph Pepper b about 1896 March qtr 1969 Carnarvon aged 73?
And also a marriage of a Joseph K Pepper to Elizabeth Jones Sept qtr 1914 Carnarvon 11b 657?
Keyboard86
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Hi.
I see the Thomas Pepper saga looms on , each time I look at any thing to do with Thomas the next
page contradicts the last page, as the 1901 census says Thomas was born c1866 in Manchester
and the 1911 census states he was bon in 1853 and had been married for 25yrs and had 8 Children.
on the 1911 census he is living at The Model Lodging House Bear Street Hay Urban Breconshire.
If he died in Chester in 1917 you could get a death certificate which may help.
Bonzo
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ha ha I feel the same and he was my great grandfather!!! Very frustrating that every census entry holds a slight different version of ages and birth places - I could order a death certificate for Thomas Kennedy but will it ever prove that he is definitely Thomas Pepper? I doubt it, and of course, sadly its too late to ask the people who knew the facts.
I have been tracing my mothers side of the family and all their details have matched census to census - I'm beginning to think he lied about his age :) still the death certificate is a good idea- thank you
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- I could order a death certificate for Thomas Kennedy but will it ever prove that he is definitely Thomas Pepper?
It's quite confusing and I apologise if it's already known but hopefuly the below will show he is the same man.
The CWGC entry for Thomas Kennedy 19518 who died 28 5 1917 is endorsed " see PEPPER, the true family name.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/4029156/kennedy,-thomas/
and
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/670798/pepper,-thomas-kennedy/
The Soldiers Effects Register for this CWGC man shows that payment was made to Elizabeth Pepper , his widow. BUT...the register has him as Joseph Kennedy and has an endorsement 'alias PEPPER'
(Ancestry link) = https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60506/42511_6117462_0098-00267?pid=305070&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DeVd14%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DUKArmyRegistersEffects%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26_F8007A65%3D19518%26_F8007A65_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh%3Da63%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D6%26h%3D305070%26recoff%3D78%252079%26ml_rpos%3D7&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=eVd14&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
The Soldiers Died Great War database for Joseph Kennedy 19518 RDC ex RWF etc etc as per CWGC shows he was born Manchester, enlisted & resided Caernarfon.
Ancestry link = https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=eVd15&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=UKsoldiersGreatWar&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&MS_AdvCB=1&_F8007A65=19518&_F8007A65_x=1&MSAV=2&uidh=a63&pcat=39&fh=6&h=58084&recoff=52%2053&ml_rpos=7
Notwithstanding the names/aliases used above the following, recorded from Caernarfon & Denbigh Herald 1 6 1917 ties it all up
" Yesterday the body of Pte Thomas Kennedy Pepper of the Royal Defence Corps was brought to Carnarvon from Chester under Military Escort. Pepper was a member of the old Militia and served throughout the South African war and on the outbreak of the present war joined the RDC. After being for some time at Marconi Wireless Station he was transferred to Chester where he contracted pneumonia and died. The funeral took place this afternoon at Llanbeblig. He leaves a widow, four sons (two of whom are in France) and four daughters. "
Added to this is the burial book entry.
St Peblig Parish burial book shows that on 1st June 1917 Thomas Kennedy Pepper of the Royal Infirmary, Chester and of 30 Wesley Street, Caernarfon was buried aged 46 years. W Watkin Jones Curate was officiating.
I was hoping that Elizabeth Kennedy Pepper's burial entry would show the same address but she is showing a Widnes one.
Elizabeth Kennedy Pepper 71 Irwell Street, Widnes 07 MAR 1928 59
(from Keith's Carnavon Traders website http://www.carnarvontraders.com/burxpe25237.shtml )
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Just to complicate things a bit further regarding his name etc
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1219/30599_157438-00296?pid=1085254&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DeVd16%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DBritishArmyService%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26gsln%3Dkennedy%26gsln_x%3D1%26_F8007A65%3D3577%26_F8007A65_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh%3Da63%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D1085254%26recoff%3D57%252058%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=eVd16&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=30599_157438-00321
This is the Ancestry link to the records of a Joseph Kennedy, Tailor, 19 Shirehall Street, Caernarfon who enlisted in RWF Special Reserves as 3577 in 1908. He declares previous service in the Militia and, in fact the paperwork shows this.
He stated he was born in St Marks, Leicester!
The bottom of the page gives the info he married Elizabeth Jones 21 3 1886 and gives names & d o b's for seven of his children.
The document in the link is the last but one in his file. Here's the start.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1219/30599_157438-00296?pid=1085254&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DeVd16%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DBritishArmyService%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26gsln%3Dkennedy%26gsln_x%3D1%26_F8007A65%3D3577%26_F8007A65_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh%3Da63%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D1085254%26recoff%3D57%252058%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=eVd16&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=30599_157438-00296
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wow that's amazing- thank you so much !
its so weird that he was living as Thomas Pepper on the 1901 and 1911 census and then used an alias when he was in the army- do you think he was born as Thomas Pepper or was he born Joseph Kennedy ?
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It is indeed weird. It's giving me quite a headache Sue!!
Further back in the thread there's a post from Nicola which may provided the answer.
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sorry about that Gwil, I appreciate all your hard work :) Thank you
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He was born as Thomas Kennedy and served in the war as Kennedy but then became served as Kennedy Pepper after stealing the lamb/sheep and after the name Pepper is still being forwarded now. Joseph Pepper is T Kennedy Pepper’s son
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Also Christopher Pepper’s son Eric Pepper passed away this morning
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:) Fascinating reading, so the birth of Joseph Pepper b c 1895/6 why can I not find it, I have all the others?
Other than Leicester or Ashby Z?
The Service record date of birth bears no resemblance to the Joseph Pepper b 1896 in 1939 who died in Carnarvon?
What was the parentage of the Joseph K Pepper who married 1914 Carnarvon to Elizabeth Jones?
Nicola, how do you know he was "Born Thomas Kennedy"
Birth of Joseph Pepper
From Army Records above 13th June 1895 and 1939 1st July 1896
Keyboard86
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Me again, following on from all the previous information and advice and having already tried for marriage certificate (26/3/86) for Thomas Pepper and Elizabeth Jones from the GRO, I tried again and requested one for Joseph Kennedy and Elizabeth but that was rejected too. I have tried a census search on Joseph Kennedy birth place of birth as St marks Leicester as that is what he filled in on his army application when he was 22 in 1885 occupation Tailor.
The only census entry I have found so far is for a Joseph Kennedy in 1871 with parents Patrick and Maria in St Marks Leciester. Is it too much of a leap of faith to think this could be the right Joseph Kennedy? any thoughts?
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A last update on Thomas Pepper aka Joseph Kennedy. I followed up "Keyboard 86's" last comment regarding the marriage of Joseph K Pepper and Elizabeth Jones in 1914 and ordered a marriage certificate. And yes they are my great grand parents, he has put his address as the Marconi Station which where he was a signal man and she has put Shirehall street which again ties in with the notes on Joseph Kennedy army records. They had previously declared on the army paperwork that they got married in 1886, I can only guess that they realised that in order for Elizabeth to get any future army pension, they would need to prove they were married. Joseph stated that his fathers name is Christopher Pepper? I cant find any evidence to back this up and wondered if it was just away of giving the use of the adopted Pepper name some credence ? Elizabeth's father is William Jones an engine driver. Another interesting point is that I found the census for 1891 Bicester Oxford and Joseph and Elizabeth, their eldest daughter Mary and my grand father Edward Thomas are all listed but as "Kennedy" rather than "Pepper", so what ever happened to cause him to change his name happened between 1891 and 1901 when they appear in Caernarfon as Thomas and Elizabeth Pepper. I don't why the name of "Thomas" was used and why it wasn't included on their marriage certificate.