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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: rumpuscat on Friday 09 November 07 20:14 GMT (UK)
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It is a rumour in the family that the Goldsmiths were gypsies. Certainly some of them were travellers/hawkers at one time or another, but others have said that they were Particular Baptists. Thomas and Keziah (nee Townsend) Goldsmith of Hellingly had several children including Kezia and Moses. Kezia married Richard Stone of Hythe and Moses married Richard's sister Sarah. Another sister Diana Stone married Joseph Gess.
Moses/Sarah and Diana/Joseph ended up at Sittingbourne, Kent, as did Richard Stone after Kezia had died.
If anyone has any further info about these convoluted connections I would be pleased to hear about them!
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I can add a little.
1871 census at 4 Gladstone Terrace, Sittingbourne - Sarah A ROBERTS age 13 b.Aldington, Ashford was listed as niece to Joseph & Diana (nee STONE) GESS.
Sarah A ROBERTS was the daughter of Adam ROBERTS and Priscilla Frances STONE who married 26 Dec 1853 St Mary Northgate, Canterbury, Kent. Priscilla Frances STONE was baptised 26 June 1836 St Mary Northgate, Canterbury dau of Thomas & Elizabeth STONE. The ROBERTS were also travellers and Adam settled in Sittingbourne.
Assuming that this is the same Thomas and Elizabeth STONE who were having children baptised in Hythe 1820s/1830s then there is a William STONE (baptised Hythe 1824 son of Thomas & Elizabeth) who married Mary RANSLEY at St Mary Northgate, Canterbury 14 Jul 1845. This branch of the RANSLEYs were travellers too.
Casalguidi :)
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Thank you. I was fairly sure about the Roberts connection but didn't know whether Priscilla Frances was a half sister to the others who were born several years earlier. I didn't know about William so that is interesting that his mother was also Elizabeth. I have not been able to find baptisms for Diana, Richard or Sarah but according to the censuses they were born between 1818 and 1828 so William would fit right in the middle.
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I have had another look at some of my old notes and, in total, have 7 possible siblings to date:
c1817 Richard (b.Hythe/Hellingly/Canterbury) married Keziah GOLDSMITH (at Dover if my memory serves me correctly - have marriage details but can't find them right now)
c1818 Diana (b.Newington/Hythe/Sth Canterbury) married Joseph GESS 1840
1824 William baptised 25 Jan Hythe (parents Thomas & Elizabeth - from baptism entry) married Mary RANSLEY - to be confirmed by marriage cert.
c1929 Sarah (b.Sellindge/Ashford) married Moses GOLDSMITH at Ashford (father Thomas - from marriage entry)
1830 Thomas baptised 12 Mar Hythe (parents Thomas & Elizabeth) appears to have married Patience (PENFOLD?)- and possibly Rye RD 1851
1832 Eleanor baptised 30 Jan Hythe (parents Thomas & Elizabeth)
1836 Priscilla Frances baptised 26 Jun St Mary Northgate, Canterbury (parents Thomas & Elizabeth) married Adam ROBERTS
Unfortunately, I don't appear to have baptisms for Diana, Richard or Sarah either.
Casalguidi :)
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Thank you for your help. The Goldsmiths/Stones are part of my partner's family and whilst researching have got in touch with a cousin of his who emigrated to Australia about 50 years ago. I offered to help her this end and she would love to know whether her ancestors were gypsies. She says that her mother strongly denied this and said that they were Particular Baptists. We know that some of the family were travellers and I know little about it but I'm sure that travellers are not necessarily gypsies.
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Looking at the fuller picture, especially for the STONES who appear to have married into like families, I would say that they were Gypsies/Travellers, yes and, political correctness aside, I would class them the same though some would beg to differ. As to whether there is a full Romany lineage, I'm not sure that many of us can be absolutely certain of any such ancestry.
I don't know anything about the GOLDSMITHs prior to the marriage of Moses & Sarah but names appearing ie. Diana, Abraham, Moses, Keziah might lead one to assume another denomination other than C of E - have you found evidence of any non-conformity within the research into the family? I have a note that Moses could sign his name (from the original marriage entry) - perhaps a little unusual for a traveller?
As an aside, a late great aunt of mine (from a travelling family) was absolutely mortified (she told me so herself) when, having moved to a "nicer" area to "better" herself, she found that her neighbours mother knew her from their youth ;)
Casalguidi :)
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This particular Goldsmith family (Thomas and Keziah nee Townsend) had two or three children named at the Baptist Chapel at Hailsham around 1812-1813. Later they had about six children baptised at Hellingly Church in one go (1821), including the ones who had been named.
The Townsends were from Ripe and there is no suggestion that they were travellers. Thomas and Keziah were married at Ripe (IGI) and lived there, then Firle and eventually Hellingly. They were living at Hellingly when at least one child was named at Hailsham.
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Rumpuscat, my direct ancestor was Jane Sharwood (gypsy) born 1790 in Kent. I had given hope of getting further back until I discovered a Kent baptism for a Jane Sharwood, the mother was Barbara GOLDSMITH. I am 90% sure its my Jane, if so then Barbara may tie in with your tree. She married William Sharwood.
IMPORTANT EDIT!! Someone has very kindly viewed the actual baptism entry of Jane Sharwood for me, her parents were William and Barbara Sharwood from GOLDSWOTH, Cheshire. Not a mums maiden name of Goldsmith!! I can find no Goldswoth or Goldsworth in Cheshire though, so the mystery continues. They were travellers.
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It is a rumour in the family that the Goldsmiths were gypsies. Certainly some of them were travellers/hawkers at one time or another, but others have said that they were Particular Baptists. Thomas and Keziah (nee Townsend) Goldsmith of Hellingly had several children including Kezia and Moses. Kezia married Richard Stone of Hythe and Moses married Richard's sister Sarah. Another sister Diana Stone married Joseph Gess.
Moses/Sarah and Diana/Joseph ended up at Sittingbourne, Kent, as did Richard Stone after Kezia had died.
If anyone has any further info about these convoluted connections I would be pleased to hear about them!
Im a direct descendent of moses and sarah my ggg granparents, my family still live the romany life albeit on our own land, bought from ovenden in 2001 !
more info on thomas and keziah would be appreciated and how they link with the ovenden name.
kushti bok, shane goldsmith.
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Hi Some of the Goldsmiths were Particular Baptists.
Thomas Goldsmith Married a Pricilla Green on the 04/06/1780 in Hailsham Sussex. Thomas was born on the 02/06/1757 in Herstmonceux Sussex, they were Particular Baptists.My tree goes back to 1693 a Thomas Goldsmith married a Elizabeth West on the 21/09/1693 in Lewis Sussex, they were my Grtx7 Grandparents. If I can be of any help please let me know.
Regards
Tomscot
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I apologise to everyone who has posted in the last few months - I had a stroke at the end of February and so have been out of action for a while. I will read them carefully and reply if I can. :)
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Hi to all, in an earlier post rumpuscat referred to me as her partner's cousin who had migrated to Australia. I can help with some queries because of the help I have received from rumpuscat and others.
For Shaneooo - as far as I know there is no link to the Ovendens. Moses Goldsmith and Sarah nee Stone were my great grandparents. Moses was the son of Thomas Goldsmith and Keziah Townshend who had other children -
Elizabeth b.1812 named at Hailsham Baptist Chapel 3/5/1812
George b.1815 also named at above, 22/10/815
Joseph b.1816
Keziah b. abt.1818 m. Richard Stone 4/8/1841, Dover he was born abt. 1818, Hythe. Richard is brother of Sarah who married Moses.
Keturah b.1821
Rebecca b.1823
William b.1827
Moses b. abt.1828, son of Thomas Goldsmith m. Sarah Stone daughter of Thomas Stone at Ashford, Kent on 24/12/1847, all males noted as Hawkers. By 1861 Sarah is a widow living in High Street, Sittingbourne, Kent with her daughter Diana Reynolds (previously Carrington).
We are not certain of Moses'grandfather, he might have been Thomas who in the 1841 census had a wife Lucy at Laughton, Sussex. No mention of a Thomas as son, however there was a Barbara and a Hezekiah and my mother Elizabeth said she remembered her father had a relative named Hezekiah.
Moses and Sarah had a son Thomas who married Elizabeth Gregory, nee Kenny, my grandparents who sadly I never met, both had died by the time I was born. My mother Elizabeth (1896-1986) married Albert John Baker (1901-1958).
In 1881 the census has Gf. Thomas living in a caravan with Eliza Roberts and there were other connections to Roberts.
My mother's sister Deborah I believe had a child/children to a Manoel Baker who was no connection to my father Albert John Baker.
Tomscot the above might be of interest as my gf Thomas Goldsmith was a Particular Baptist. In Access to Archives I found a reference to a Thomas Goldsmith and others occupying land in Hailsham, they were Protestant Dissenters of the Particular Baptist denomination. Also I found a removal order to Hailsham in 1844 for Thomas Goldsmith from Winchelsea with wife Mary and sons Thomas 5 and Amos 3. Is this your family ? Can you make a connection to mine ? And Shaneooo which of Moses' children are you descended from ?
With best wishes to all
beeb
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Beeb, on the 1881 how old was the Eliza Roberts living with gf Thomas (mentioned two thirds down your post), does it give a birthplace for Eliza?
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Hi Beeb, my gt grandmother was Deborah, your mums sister, her son Joseph my grandfather. Thanks for the tree you posted as it has filled in a few grey areas i had.
cheers, shane.
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Beeb, on the 1881 how old was the Eliza Roberts living with gf Thomas (mentioned two thirds down your post), does it give a birthplace for Eliza?
Hi Rebeka, eliza roberts b stockbury was 30 in 1881 with dau sarah roberts b sittingbourne aged 2. shown as servant and caravan sleeper.
cheers, shane
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I was pleased to read your reply Shane, I can say Hello Cousin then. I did meet your ggrandma Deborah once that I remember, my Mum called her Young Deb, that was at the other sister's house, Dinah. Do you know who M........ is, I think my Mum had a letter from her to say she was looking after the two sisters and then wrote later to say one had died. After my Mum died in 1986, aged 89, I went through her papers looking for M.......'s address so that I could write, but couldn't find it. Not long before she died Mum told me that one or more children of Deborah were sent to Western Australia, Albany she thought, do you know anything about that. I wrote to a newspaper in W.A. asking if anyone could help me find the child/children, but I didn't know names or even a surname, just some possibles.
I am having trouble with Mum's brothers, she always referred to Tom, Joe, Mo, Francis (who might have been known as Lonnie) and Richard. I have not been able to find births for Francis and Richard, I did see a baptism for an Aaron which might have been the first name of either Francis or Richard. Have you any knowledge of the brothers ?
Do you want to know about Elizabeth Kenny, Tom's wife, I have some information about her and her family ? Let me know if there is anything else I can tell you.
I send greetings to you Cousin and your family,
Brenda
PS Hi Rebekah, Shane answered your query, there was a Sarah living with Thomas Goldsmith's family in the 1891 census. I think it was Sarah Roberts. I don't know what happened to the mother.
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Hi brenda, just some bits from notes,
Thomas gregory(goldsmith) b milton or dover 1887
Joseph goldsmith b 1889 milton
Moses b milton 1892 2a 873
Dinah b milton 1893 2a 838
elizabeth b milton 1896 2a 905
Aaron b milton 1898 vol 2a page 893 BMD.
deborah b milton 1903 2a 1030
thomas b milton 1905 2a 1005
and posibbly a kate helen b 1901 2a 974 d 1902 2a 768
in the 1911 cencus it shows richard aged 13 b milton, no sign on bmd index or the 1901 and no sign of aaron on 1911! can we assume these are the same person? also shows there were 9 born 7 surviving this marriage.
I would like that info on elizabeth kenny thankyou.
thanks, shane.
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Hello to Shane and Helen, remembering my Mum was over 80 when she gave me this information and that she had left Kent about 1934 this is what I recorded -
Joseph Baker, Constance Baker, Margaret Matthews, George Matthews, Patricia Matthews, Arthur Matthews, Charles Matthews and Rosie Matthews. No dates. So I haven't been of much help there, sorry. Perhaps the missing children are the ones sent to Australia, maybe through a scheme such as Barnardos.
Thanks for the info on Tom/Elizabeth's children. I think you are right, it was Aaron Richard, but there was another younger son, perhaps the Thomas b. 1905 was Francis then. Mum and Dinah used to take them to school and they always played up. Little Kate died, "overlaid" Mum said, perhaps a cot death. I didn't have the dates so thanks for that along with all the other information.
Shane this is the information I have on my grandma Elizabeth Kenny -
her parents Michael Kenny and Catherine Ronan married in Dover St. Paul's RC Church, 1/6/1853. He was son of Michael Kenny and Mary Walsh. Catherine daughter of Thomas Ronan and Mary Barry. In 1861 in Dover Michael is a Rag & Bone dealer, 35,b. Kerry, Ireland and Catherine 30, b. Co.Cork, (Ardfield) Ireland. Children Mary 7, John 3 and Catherine 6 months, all children b. Charlton. Elizabeth last child born 1 Jan. 1863. Michael died aged 38 Dec.27 1866.
Catherine and children went to live with her parents and in 1871 at Barwicks Alley, Dover, her father Thomas b. Ardfield, Co. Cork, 80, is now a widower, Catherine is a laundress, no Mary, but John, Catherine and Elizabeth are with her. There is also a "son-in-law" of Thomas Ronan, Florence McCarthy, 38, pensioner and tailor, b.Ireland. There was an Ellen Mary Kenny birth d/o Florence and Catherine, b. 9 March 1872, registered as Kenny birth. Perhaps son-in-law was another name for partner or de facto. I don't know what happened to Florence but Catherine seems to have married a Richard Gillman before 1877 as she died on 15 March 1877 as Catherine Rowland ( should have been Ronan) Gillman and is buried at St. James' Cemetery, the parish register has Catherine Gillman (Kenny).
I don't know what happened to Mary, John or Ellen or their mother Catherine's siblings possibly Michael, Margaret and Ann (who married James Ovenden), I am doubtful as to whether Ann is my line.
Elizabeth's sister Catherine (known as Kate) married Albert Dunster 3 May 1880 in St. Paul's.
Elizabeth married first James Gregory at St.Paul's 16, Feb.1882. Elizabeth was 19 of Military Road, Dover, father Michael deceased, a marine store dealer. James was 24, a mariner of 7 Worthington Lane, Dover, his father Henry Gregory, labourer. Witnesses Charles McCarthy and Ellen Gurthrie. James is believed to have died before 1888, drowned at sea.
Children baptised at St. Paul's - James Henry b.18 Apr. 1883, Albert Edward or William b.28 Nov. 1884 (died aged 3 mnths.) David b.15 Mar. 1887. I don't know what happened to these children.
Elizabeth Gregory married secondly Thomas Goldsmith at the parish church Sittingbourne, 15 Aug. 1888 they both claimed to be single and Elizabeth had her father as Thomas Kennett, witnesses were George Grigsby and Deborah Goldsmith. I think there was an earlier marriage to Thomas in a Catholic church but it wasn't registered correctly perhaps, the children of their union seem to have been baptised in a Catholic church and I am not sure that would be allowed without a Catholic marriage. Someone else may know about those regulations.
The 1891 census was confusing with Thomas Gregory noted as stepson of the above said to be aged 1, while Joseph's birthplace was given as Dover and aged 4. I thought perhaps Thomas was aka David Gregory who was born in 1887 which could make him 4 in 1891. What do you think ?
I would very much like to have Mickey's address if she wouldn't mind, thank you Shane.
Best wishes to you both and thanks Helen for your input. Brenda
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Hi Brenda thanks for that, my thoughts on the thomas and joseph ages was that the enumerator muddled them up, on the 1901 they are the other way round making the ages correct or as id expect, ill have another look at bmd.
talk soon, shane.
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Some more bits,
james henry gregory b 1883 2a 957
d 1883 2a 499
albert w gregory b 1884 2a 1034
d 1884 2a 603
david b 1887 2a 1002 i agree with you that thomas and david are the same person, may be called thomas so people would accept him as thomas snr son,
talk soon, shane.
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Shane thanks for all the information. I did see the 1901 census. I think we are right about David/Thomas and I think Thomas Goldsmith b.1905 was known in the family as Francis to save confusion. Tom and Joe the two older boys were in WW1, in the Buffs Mum said and that Joe had been in trouble in Mesopotamia and finished up in Barlinnie jail. She said that he ran away from guards in Kent and found her at a hop field, she told him to give himself up. I think it was Moses that joined the Dominicans, but suffered from ill health and due to that returned home and later died of a perforated duodenal ulcer which must have been terribly painful. Another brother was fetched home from work on a farm gate used for a stretcher,he had tetanus and died from that.
Thanks too for giving me the info on the Gregory boys, I hadn't known that James Henry had also died. Poor Elizabeth it must have been awful for her losing two baby sons and then her husband.
I forgot to say before that Rumpuscat's partner descends from Aaron Goldsmith brother of our Tom and son of Moses and Sarah.
I hope we will hear from Tomscot that he has found a link to his Goldsmiths, it would be good to get further back on that line. I was born in Brighton, Sussex myself and was surprised to find our Goldsmiths there in Sx, I thought all but the Kenny/Ronans came from Kent.
All for now, Brenda
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There is a WW1 army service record for Richard GOLDSMITH born Sittingbourne (son of Thomas) latter 1890s. He was in the Buffs (East Kent Regit.)
Just a note to remind everyone that names and any details of any person who may possibly be living is not permitted on the boards here on Rootschat hence details of such persons have been removed from the above posts.
Sorry to hear you have been unwell Rumpuscat
Good luck in your searches everyone
Casalguidi :)
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Thank you for that Casalguidi. This must be Richard Aaron then born 1898, possibly known as Lonnie. I'd be interested to hear if anyone knows what Lonnie was the nickname for, I haven't heard of it since Lonnie Donnergan sang to fame with "My Old Man's a Dustman" many years ago.
If you didn't see Thomas or Joseph Goldsmith in the Buffs, maybe my old Mum mistook the regiment, I think there is/was a West Kent regiment perhaps they joined them. Or I suppose they could have joined any regiment that was stationed in Kent at that time, I expect there was a lot of recruiting going on at that time. I did wonder why Joseph had been sent to a Glasgow prison.
Best wishes,
Brenda
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Hi Brenda
Not all the WW1 service records survive so it's still possible that they did serve with the Buffs. You can search the WW1 army medal rolls in the documents online section of the National Archives site - there are loads of GOLDSMITHs serving with Kent regiments. Unfortunately, these medal cards usually give little information apart from regiment and medals awarded http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.htm
There is an absent voters list online for Milton 1918/1919 which lists those still serving http://www.sittingbournemiltonfallen.com/menu.html
Casalguidi :)
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Thank you again Casalguidi for your help. Also I would like to say how sorry I am for thoughtlessly naming living people and I hope I haven't given offence to Shane and his family, if so I apologise sincerely.
Brenda
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Hi Brenda, more my fault i think, never mind!. i got your pm and will send you the deleted details, i did find some milton goldsmiths in the ww1 lists but didnt make any notes, i will try to find them again and will post, talk soon, shane.
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Hi Shane, I did have a look at the websites Casalguidi gave, but I was short on time and will look again.
Do you have a marriage for the parents of Sarah Stone, we know the father was Thomas Stone a hawker from the marriages of Sarah and her sister Diana at Ashford. I found one which I think might fit -
Thomas Stone m. Elizabeth Provess at Newchurch (Romney Marsh area) 14 October, 1816
This was on www.woodchurchancestry.org.uk/newchurch
I haven't got any further back than that.
I couldn't find much on Elizabeth Kenny Goldsmith's Irish forebears either, I know Ardfield is a townland or parish, but what village I don't know. Looking at the Griffiths Valuations for that area 1848-1864, I thought perhaps Mountain Common as there were a few Ronans and Barrys, even a McCarthy or two. Irish research it too hard, records that do exist are hard to access if at all. Looking for a Kenny in Kerry is like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack.
Oh well, its these mysteries that keep one going. Cheers,
Brenda
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Sorry that website link doesn't work. Try www.woodchurchancestry.org.uk and look for mid Kent marriages.
That should work.
Brenda
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Hi, I'm looking for previous families of a Thomas Goldsmith born abt1788, poss Sussex and died 18th mar, 1836, he married a Emma lusted on 24th dec 1822 in Hellingly, Sussex.
Had two daugters; Mary born 1824 herstmonceux, Sussex and died 1st sept 1826 and Harriet born 1825 and died 27th sept 1842 at Hellingly Workhouse, also they had a son Thomas born abt 1827 Herstmonceux and died 27th nov 1901.
Also down the line one of them married a Baker.
If anyone can help me to find previous family of this Thomas, I would be deeply appreciated. I am not sure if any of the ones I have read on here are connected to my family.
susan
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I just thought that I'd pop my head up. ;) Things are coming thick and fast now, aren't they? I'm finding it hard to keep up! Hi Beeb!- I will write to you-promise!
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Susan, we haven't any information on Thomas Goldsmith's ancestry, all we know is that Tom married Keziah Townsend in Ripe, Sx. in 1811. They were Particular Baptists, they had some children baptised at the Baptist Chapel in Hailsham 1812/13 and then a job lot of the other children in 1821 Hellingly. Haven't come across your Goldsmith/Lusted family, we think our Tom was born about 1790.
I was hoping we would hear from Tomscot who also has Goldsmiths who were Particular Baptists and in Hailsham and Hurstmonceux, it seems a possibility we might all connect up somewhere down the line.
Hi rumpuscat, hope you are feeling better. Don't worry about not writing, you are entitled to a rest, you had done most of the Stone and Goldsmith research before opening up this rootschat avenue so you have done more than your bit.
Best wishes,
Brenda
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I have some information about Thomas Goldsmith and Priscilla Green and their family which may help. Their children were named in the Baptist Chapel at Hailsham as Tomscot has written earlier. I also have a collection of notes gleaned from Sussex records about the Goldsmiths in East Sussex, and especially Hailsham, Hellingly & Herstmonceux. (I would love to have a little more info from Tomscot about his Goldsmith tree if possible).
My descendants are the same as Susan's (Abesad), but I don't think that our Thomas Goldsmith is the same person as has been discussed here. Our problem is that there were many Thomas Goldsmiths around the Hailsham, Hellingly and Herstmonceux areas.
There were two Thomas Goldsmiths christened at Herstmonceux who could be our relative, one on 3rd Feb 1785 (son of Richard and Sall) and another on 19th Oct 1795. I believe that one of these was our relative - has anyone come across either of these two Thomas's in their research?
Goldieboy
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Dear Rumpuscat
I have been reading your thread with interest. My ggg grandfather was a William Stone married to a Mary Unknown, though seeing this thread think I have found her. William was definitely a romany and I also notice that there were members of the family who were Particular Baptists. This too corresponds with my ancestors as I know that William & Mary's son Stephen my gg grandfather born in Sittingbourne and his wife Matilda Giles were members of the Peculiar People another baptist group when they settled in Essex. Stephen was known as the Blue Roan - The King of the Gypsys a horse dealer and at his funeral it was attended by at least a hundred of his grandchildren.
Thank you to everyone who has put something here as it helps so many of us with unanswered questions.
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This family ???
1861 - vans, Little Warley, Essex
William STONE head mar 26 lic. hawker b.Hythe Kent
Mary wife 35 b.High Wade (sic) Kent
Stephen son 15 b.Minster Kent
Thomas son 13 b.not known
Mary dau 11 b.Maidstone Kent
Priscilla dau 9 b.Sittingbourne
William son 7 b.Orsett Essex
John son 5 b.Keldon Hatch Essex
James son 2 b.Great Stambridge Essex
Walter son 6w b.Lackington? Essex
RG9/1075 folio 217 page 9
William STONE looks likely to have married Mary RANSLEY 1845 Canterbury http://freebmd.rootsweb.com with Mary RANSLEY likely being the daughter of Stephen Munn RANLSEY and Mary ROSE.
Casalguidi :)
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Stone gypsies married into the Roberts. I have Ransleys, Stone's and Roberts.
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In the 1881 census in the caravan next to Eliza Roberts and Tom Goldsmith in Cowper Road, Sittingbourne are William Stone head, 57, no birthplace given, Mary wife, 53, b. Cranbrook, Albert 15, Romford, Cecilia 12, Chilham (maybe the Celia who m. Thomas Johnson whose sister Deborah married Moses, Tom Goldmith's brother.
In that 1861 census William is 26 which should perhaps be 36 as his son Stephen is 15. Then this family would fit with the 1881 Stone family.
I have seen Enumerators' Books and the writing sometimes is so bad that a 3 could easily be transcribed as 2.
Best wishes,
Brenda
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Casalguidi, I had always thought that names like Abraham, Moses etc were bible names, therefore C of E?
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Rebekahm you ask Casalguidi about biblical names such as Abraham and Moses, I hope you will excuse me for jumping in. Baptists, Methodists, Catholic, Lutheran etc., all Christian faiths in fact would use the bible and be familiar with those names even when they couldn't read because they would listen to sermons and bible readings by priests and other church leaders and hear names like Aaron, Adam, Deborah, Rebecca, Sarah, Samuel & Samson etc. The Jews used the names from the Old Testament too of course.
In my family the Goldsmiths who I thought might be Jewish turned out to be Primitive or Particular Baptists and they used names like Moses and Aaron from the Old Testament and Thomas from the New.
I hope this is helpful to you,
Brenda
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:D thanks Brenda, Ive made a note of that, very interesting! x
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Hi to everyone whose posted on this thread, hope you are all well.
On a more sombre note does anyone have a death date for either Thomas or Kezia, i dont seem to be able to find them.
Many thanks, shane.
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Sorry Shane, I don't have birth or death dates for either Thomas or Kezia Goldsmith, think perhaps early 1790's for births, would like that information myself and parents, siblings, grandparents etc.
Not much research going on here, preparing to move shortly. Summer has arrived in South Australia already with temperatures in high 30s all week and I hate it.
Best wishes to all, Brenda
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Hi Brenda, hope the move goes well, weather is getting a bit chilly now here in not so sunny canterbury :( but im not jealous, much.
good luck, shane.
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Not sure if these have already been posted?
Kezia townsend christining 13 june 1794 ripe parish church sussex
marriage to thomas 12 oct 1811 ripe parish church sussex.
would anyone know if these records are available to view at the church or some other archive.
many thanks shane.
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Hi Shane, thanks for that information. Look I don't think you would really enjoy temps like the 39 degrees today, but if I could bottle some heat I would send it to you.
I went to see owners of my next home today, the wife mentioned that she had lived in many previous houses and moved around a lot, I said you must have a touch of Gypsy in you and could have fallen over backward when she said "well I do, my family are Boswells". I thought I was joking, so was very surprised, I told her that I also had Travellers in my family so we had an extra hug for that. She also thought I had a slight similarity to her mother, but that might just have been shape of face and grey hair !!
By the way I say "Travellers" because I am not sure if the Stones are Rom, can you confirm that Shane ?
Sending "warmest" greetings,
Brenda
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Hi Brenda, it seems to me that it is nearly impossible to say for certain that they were rom, but all the evidence is more in favour than against. They lived in well known gypsy areas, married into gypsy families and carried out trades associated with gypsies, many of their descendents carried on those ways. Because sittingbourne is a small and close knit community it is well known who comes from "travelling" stock and the local stone family is one of them. As ive said before there are still many branches of our family that still live in caravans but i believe my family is the last that carry the goldsmith name :( . But half of my immediate family have taken up housing and who knows what their granchildren will know of their heritage in 30 years time!
On a happier note i'll be making a visit to sussex in the near future and hopefuly will have the parents of thomas and a few more tidbits to go on.
Keep the aircon on ;) and good luck with the move.
shane.
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Re: the Stones. If anyone has Priscilla Stone born 1836 in canterbury, daughter of gypsies Thomas & Elizabeth, we are distantly related. Priscilla, who was a dealer in old clothes, married Adam Roberts born 1830. Adam is my direct ancestor Samson Roberts brother. Priscilla and Adam had 10 children that I know of.
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Just recieved an email from east sussex archives.
"I have searched the relevant Ripe marriage register and I can confirm that Thomas Goldsmith of Ripe, bachelor (mark) and Kezia Townsend of Ripe, spinster (mark) were married by banns on 12 Oct 1811, witnessed by Walter Townsend and Frances Bishop (mark)" (ref PAR 462/1/1/4).
Anyone have any details on the witnesses!
thanks, shane.
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My Grt/grt/ Grandmother was Ann Goldsmith b 29/02/1824 in Hailsham, her father was Joseph Goldsmith b 16/09/1781 also of Hailsham, his wife was Ann Souton b 21/08/1786 in Stayning. They were married on the 22/03/1804 Lewes. Ann's Siblings were.
Elizabeth b 1817 Hailsham.
Thomas b 1809 Hailsham.
Reuben b 1812 Hailsham.
Sarah b 1818 Hailsham.
Joseph's Father was Thomas Goldsmith b 02/10/1757 in Herstmonceux he married Priscilla Green in Hailsham on the 04/06/1780. I do not have any information on Pricilla at all, so any info on her would be most welcome.
Thomas's Father was George Goldsmith b 14/01/1724 in Wartling,he married Sarah Hover/ Hopher 21/04/1747 in Herstmonceux, Sarah was born in Warbleton in 1721. I have been unable to trace any children of this marriage as yet.
George's father was James Goldsmith b 26/04/1696 in Wartling married Elizabeth Potter in Wartling on the 16/02/1719, I have no info on Elizabeth except that she died on the 24/01/1744 in Wartling, again I have no record of children.
George's father Thomas Goldsmith married Elizabeth West 21/04/1696 in Lewes. That is all the information I have on my branch of the Goldsmith tree, I would be most gratfull for any information Ref the above.
Kind regards
Tomscot
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Hi tomscot, without the parentage of my thomas i dont think we'll be able to connect our families, im hoping to have a visit to the sussex records office early next year to see if i can get through the brick wall !
thanks, shane.
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(deleted, sorry answered old post).
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Hi to all, this subject seems to have gone cold - is it the weather ??? Did you manage to get to Sussex yet Shane or has the snow kept you home - I wouldn't blame you for that. I have moved to new house and pretty much settled in now. Nothing further on our search for ancestors of Moses Goldsmith and Sarah Stone sadly, but let us hope that this year we can dig up a few more ancestors.
With best wishes for 2010 to all,
Brenda
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Hi Brenda,
Glad to hear the move went well, i've not had time to go to to sussex yet but hopefully i will soon, i've recently made contact with a direct descendent of elvy baker, stephen bakers sister, he live in canada, hopefully i can find out which member of his family emigrated, i'll let you know.
By the way the snow has finally gone from Kent only to be replaced with non stop rain!! Happy Days.
shane.
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Good to hear from you Shane. We could do with some rain here in South Australia, flooding in Queensland, but not a drop here.
I meant to ask before, is your Stephen Baker related at all to Roger Baker's travelling family which includes Scamps ? I wrote to him, pre computers, for a long while, he was searching for Bakers in Canterbury and so was I, he was very good in giving me census details of my Bakers, we never found a connection and I have no knowledge that mine were travellers, my Stephen was an Ag.lab in Hoath before moving to Canterbury, his father John was likewise but born in Herne as was his father. While in Canterbury some of my Stephen's sons were hawkers as youngsters, but I think it was just a job they could do to earn a bob or two. Oddly my gf Albert Baker was a partner in a Marine Store which also appears as a Gypsy occupation,in Sittingbourne, but no suggestion he was a traveller.
I've been reading up, but none the wiser, about DNA tests and wondering whether it might be worthwhile having done, have you any thoughts on these tests ? Has anyone reading this thread had it done and was it worth it ? I'd be glad of any information.
Best wishes Shane and to all,
Brenda
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Hi Brenda
they are related but for the life of me i cant remember what the connection is!
My father knows quite a few baker/scamp families in orpington area who are related, he has always said that the bakers were scamps originally, there is also a baker scamp marriage but again i cant rember who it was, i will have a look and get back to you, i think the key to connecting our bakers is to find john c1824 family, the witnesses at his wedding being james and margaret baker are most likely brother and sister in law, finding these and john on the 1861 will be helpful but as of yet no luck.
there is a DNA project just for travellers, it test for the yhaplo gene ( or something like that) but only tells you if you descend from india, not sure what the other benefits of having it tested are, hopefully someone can explain in more detail.
talk soon, shane.
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Hello Shane and Brenda,
i dont know if this is any use to you,you might have it.
I have a marriage between John Tappenden and Isabel Scamp march quart 1903 Canterbury.
She was daughter of Samuel Scamp and Faith Gains.
John was the son of William Tappenden and Susan(Annie) Baker born 1853 Canterbury.
Annie had a brother Stephen born 1848 and there parents were George Baker,general dealer and Sarah King.
John Tappendens sister Emily married William "Belcher" Rossiter,so another traveller connection there.
You may have all this,or it might not be significant,but i thought id throw it in just in case,
Nel.
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Thanks Nel,
with all these bakers born around the same place and same time sooner or later were bound to make a connection!, lee have you come across a james and margaret baker on your travels?
thanks shane.
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There was a James BAKER (wife Margaret) living in Stelling 1861+ http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,353374.0.html
Casalguidi :)
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Greetings to All. Nel that is right, you jogged my memory, Roger Baker was looking for the George Baker and Sarah King ancestry, then suddenly it all kicked off and he was into the Scamps. He had a website, but I haven't been able to find it. It would have been very useful to Scamp researchers.
Shane thanks for DNA input, doesn't seem all that worthwhile yet. I would be interested in my Baker side, but I would need my brother to agree to the test, he is 85, he is my only link now to our father's DNA and as his only child, a son, is deceased with no heirs, he isn't interested in genealogy. As my DNA appears to be, as far as I can understand, accessible through my sons and daughters I don't have to worry yet. I hope I have understood and that it goes children's mother's mother and so on, but daughter's can only do mother's not father's because of a male's Y chromosome. I've had a look at a couple of sites to get this info, but I might not have got it right as it seems pretty complicated. It has been said that mum is missing some marbles !!!
Well I hope that a lovely Spring is just round the corner for you,
Brenda
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Hi Brenda, i think the web site has closed down because the baker/scamp tree is now in print available to buy for £5.99 i think, i believe your right about the dna, needing male dna to trace the paternal history and female for maternal,
Wrap up warm now !
shane.
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Found a second marriage for kezia goldsmith nee townshend.
kezia gouldsmith widower father william townshend, maltster to joseph king widow, postal worker father benjamin king, husbandman, holborn, london, dec 9th 1850, witnessed by henry gill sighned and rebecca barr x.
rebecca being rebecca goldsmith b 1823 hellingly dau of kezia and thomas.
rebecca marries william barr, batch, cook, son of john barr, brazier 7th feb 1847 bishopsgate, london. rebeccas father is thomas, occ baker.
witnessed by joseph wheeler and sarah ann hudson.
1851 cencus has. Class: HO107; Piece: 1568; Folio: 14; Page: 21;
joseph king head 71 messenger in post office b shampton sussex
kezia king wife 56 b ripley sussex
george goldsmith grandson 4 born marelybone
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???
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Hi, sent you a PM.
shane.
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Hi everybody, :D
This is heavy going,but I think maybe I found a link.
Joseph Goldsmith, born 1696 Framfield Sussex
died 21/02/1748.
Rebecca Townsend born 1700 Framfield Sussex
died April 1780 Framfield Sussex
Joseph and Rebecca were married on the 12/12/1721
in Framfield Sussex.
I have also traced my grtx3 grandfather Joseph's son Thomas Goldsmith born 1808/09
Hailsham Sussex died 07/05/1889 Hailsham, he married a
Mary Ann Elphick in Maresfield Sussex,they had 8 children
one of which I have traced, a William Goldsmith b c1856 Hailsham Sussex. he married a Ann Avard in 1876. I hope some of this information will help.
I also noticed in the the family records that my Grtx4 Mary Clark the second wife of Thomas Prodger was married to a John Roberts they married on the 09/08/1770 in Folkingham Sussex. Mary's name before marriage was Mary Clark,that is all the information I have on John Roberts, Mary was born in West Dean on the 02/06/1750.
Thats all I have at the moment I hope it helps.
Kind Regards
Tomscot :-\
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Hi There
I was reading all the Goldsmith coments and I have come across your message.
I think I have the same family tree line. I am in NSW Australia My Great Grand Father Albert James Goldsmith B 20.6.1872 Middlesex he came over in 1888 on the ship Alexander Lawerence his brother was William Charles Goldsmith I don't know nothing about him at all but I wish I did or there could have been more children. Their father Henry Charles Goldsmith Born 1841 Hailsham and their Mother Mary Ann Friars Born 16.6.1844 Hailsham Married 23.7.1871 St Stephens The Martyr Co Middlesex
Henry's father was Thomas Goldsmith B 1809 circa. and mother Mary Ann ? B 1823 circa. D 15.5.1908 36 Bellbanks Rd Hailsham
Children that I know of are
Henry 1841, Caroline 1845, Thomas 1846, George 1847, Naomi 1849, and Joseph 1851.
Thomas Goldsmith Snr 1809 his father was
Joseph Goldsmith B 1781 Hailsham circa. and Ann Southerne 1786 Steyning they were married 1804 St Ann Lewes Children from this marriage that I know off are
Reuben 1812, Noah 1814, Elizabeth 1817, Sarah 1818 Hailsham, Ann 1824, and Caroline 1831, Is there any of these name connected to you family
Looking Forward to your answer Thank You Robyn
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Hi Robyn,
Welcome to Rootchat,and what a surprise,yes we are related.
I am at this moment looking at my Family Tree.Joseph Goldsmith b 16/09/1781 Hailsham was my Grtx3 Grandfather,married Ann Souton/Southerne on the 22/03/1804 in Lewes Sussex. Ann was born in Steyning on the 21/08/1786.
Joseph was 23 years, and Ann was 18 years.Ann Gloldsmith was my Grt/Grt/ Grand mother b 29/02/1824.Her siblings are as you say except I have no record of Noah.Thomas Goldsmith b 1809 was my Grt/Grt/Uncle,he married
Mary Ann Elphick on the 22/01/1843 Maresfield Sussex.Henry his son and I both served in the Queens Foot Guards I served in the Scot Guards and Henry in the Grenadiers though not at the same time ;DHe was a Sargeant Statoined at Wellington Barracks at the time of the 1881 census,our Goldsmith tree I have goes back to 1696 which I have traced.Well I will sign off now, I will be in touch with you soon.
Kind Regards,
Tomscot. ;)
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Well Hi There cousin welcome to my half of the family in NSW this is so fantastic I have just finished talking to my maternal 3rd Cousins in Donegal that I didn't know before Christmas 2011 living 8 miles away from my GGrandmothers farm MOMEEN CRAIG I was over the moon I even have a photo of my GGGrandparents grave let alone marriages cert and death cert and my family book has gotten bigger after we have gone further than I would ever have thought of all I wanted to know is where in Donegal did GGrandma come from thanks to the internet I thought that I would try and find out about my side of the Goldsmith my maiden name I am now retired and I have time to do this.
I'm so excited to find about the Goldsmiths there is only two Aunties left that are in their 70-80's and they don't know much only what their grandfather Albert James has told them, Our Cousin went to England many times as an air Steward in his spare time he would trace the Goldsmith Family buying Cert. taking photos of the houses they lived in and visiting the local parishes, sadly he has died but he has left me everthing. I am not a hundred percent right in the names and dates that is why before I finish the tree and print all I have done and leave it for the kids and Grand Kids I would like to correct what he has been done to make sure its all correct if you could help me do this Wow I would be for ever grateful.
What you are saying Goldsmiths back to 1696 my god that would be something I would never believe one could do that we have a terrible lot of information to exchange then I have nearly all the records of the Henry's Enlistment papers and his discharge papers to give you as well. You just gave me the dates of Joseph and Ann's Birth I didn't have and name of Maryann Elphick all I had was a ? mark thank you at least that will fill in a hole. I have put in Noah because that's what Kevin told me he went to the parish registers I think I can only say what he has told me so if you know there was no Noah then there must be no Noah I don't have a William either so we will be e-mailing a lot til I get it right HAHA I have all the Goldsmith here in NSW right so I know this side is ok How do I send you the cert. and photos looking forward to more information You cousin Robyn Sending you a photo of Albert James Goldsmith my Great Grand father
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Hi Robyn, ;)
I hope this of help to you, I found it in the 1881 Census, Ref William Goldsmith.
William Goldsmith Head age 25 b Hailsham Sussex,b1856.
This was Henry's Brother.
Ann Goldsmith Wife, age 25 b Warbelton Sussex (nee Ann Avard),
Son Albert E Goldsmith son age 4 b 1877 Hailsham Suseex.
Caroline Goldsmith Daughter age 2 b 1879 Hailsham Sussex.
Address Stoney Lane Hailsham Sussex.Is this the William you are
looking for?
Also do any of these name ring a bell with you, they are the rest of
the children of Thomas Goldsmith and Mary Ann Elphick.
Henry b 1844,Caroline b1845 Thomas 1846, George b 1848, John
b 1853 William as above b1856, Alfred b 1858, James b 1859.
As soon as I find more info I will let you know.
Kind Regards,
Tom. ::)
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Thanks Tom This is not the William I was after but this is great I want all the Goldsmith answered for and this will add anything will help to fill in the gapps I have
NO 1 SON parents JOSEPH GOLDSMITH & ANN SOUTHERNE
THOMAS GOLDSMITH B 1809 Hailsham England D 7.5.1889 Hailsham Married 22.1.1843 Maresfield Sussex Eng. (6275A) MARY ANN ELPHICK B 1823 Surrey England D 15.5.1908 36 Bellbanks Rd Hailsham Occupation General Labourer
CHILDREN
HENRY CHARLES B 1841 Hailsham ENG D 25.12.1912 BURR: Hailsham Cemetery Plot 1098 36 Bellbanks Rd HailshamPrivate Soldier Gren. Guards 1st Regt. M 23.7.1871 MARY ANN FRIARS Parents HENRY & ELIZABETH (CLEAR) B 16.6.1844 3 Marlboro Terrace Middlesex D 13.5.1908 36 Bellbanks Rd Hailsham Burr: Hailsham Cemetery Plot 1065 lived 5 Becketts Place Frederick St. St John’s Wood
CAROLINE GOLDSMITH MARRIED BY 1871
B 10.3.1845 Hailsham
D
THOMAS GOLDSMITH
B 1.3.1846 Hailsham
D
GEORGE GOLDSMITH
B 5.9.1848 Hailsham
D
NAOMI GOLDSMITH
B 11.3.1849 Hailsham
D
JOSEPH GOLSMITH
B 11.3.1851 Hailsham
D
WILLIAM GOLDSMITH
B 1855 Hailsham
D
ALFRED GOLDSMITH
B 1858 Hailsham
D
JAMES GOLDSMITH
B 1860 Hailsham
D
JOHN GOLDSMITH
B 1853 Hailsham
D
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I haven't finished adding to this list and the page disapeared on me I would love to send this by e-mail this way is not helping I get so frustrsted I can't add what I want to say the page keeps rolling up when I'm typing.
I was talking about William Goldsmith B 1856 that you so kindly sent me is not the William I was looking for William Charles son of Henry Charles Goldsmith B 1841-44 we can not find Henry's birth. I want to find all the children for Henry and Mary ann Friars I have Albert James B 20.6.1872 Henry Thomas 23.6.1876 Emily 17.9.1882 and William Charles B 4.1.1880 All born Hailsham and Bap St Stephens The Martyr Hailsham Albert is my GRT Grand Father Grand Father Robert Henry B 24.12.1902 Glebe Syd. and then my father Robert George B 23.8.1923 Glebe Sydney.
I would like to fill in the blanks before I print out the tree for my 4 children and 18 grand childrenThank you Robyn
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Thom do you have the Marriage certificate of Mary Ann Elphick and Henry Charles Goldsmith my cousin wants to now where they were married she only goes on proof
Thank you Robyn
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Hi Robyn,
Thank you for the Photo.I found this in My records I hope it is of some help to you. Alfred Goldsmith b 1858 Hailsham Sussex.Married Kate Jenkins b c1859 in Horsham Sussex.The marriage took place in 1878 Location not known as yet.The children of the marriage are, Ernest Goldsmith b 1879,Hailsham Sussex. Rosalyn b 1881,Sutton Surrey.Alfred b 1885 Hailsham. Herbert b 1888 Hailsham. Edith b 1894 St Leonards Sussex. John b 1897 St Leonards Sussex.
Is this the Alfred in your family? I'm Sorry I dont have those Marriage certs as they are not part of my family tree.I will keep in touch.
Kind Regards,
Tomscot.
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Hi Thom Thanks for this I have this Alfred, cousin Annette has sent me all the dates I am just filling the things I can find on the freeBMD, I was only checking this the other day and I have found in the 1891 census Alfred Goldsmith Bapt: 13.12.1857 Hailsham Parish Church he age 21 she age 20 married 21.5.1879 Hailsham 2b 135. Kate Jenkins B 1859 Horsham Children Ernest B 1880 Roseinea B 1881 Caroline B 1883 Alfred B 1886 Herbert B 1888 all Hailsham and Kate 10 days old B 1891 Hastings so you have added two more Edith and John St Leonards. I would like all the families to be complete before I print a copy for my children and the 18 and a half Grand kids, any more you find will be a help. Annette is sending me the family tree finished by a man called Richard Goldsmith he lived in Hailsham I dont know weither he is still alive but he and my cousin Kevin Gully communicated all the time before Kevin died, he has all baptisims 1780-1900 for Hailsham and surounding area. I have all the births or bapts. dates for all of Henry and Mary Goldsmith if you would like them, I have all births and Bapts. for Joseph and Ann Children also all of Joseph siblings his parents Thomas and Priscilla Goldsmith married 4.6.1780 Hailsham Parish. I think that is as far back as one can go I woud like to know when your Ann Goldsmith married James Podger what is their date and any children if you would like to tell me them please
regards Robyn
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Hi Thom I was reading this page I would like to know have you gone back this far I am interested to know the rest of the family tree if you would like so share it with me I have only just found out about Thomas and Priscilla and I thought that would be as far back anyone could go. Did all the Goldsmith's on our tree come from Hailsham or Hellingly? and how far back can one go.
Thank you Robyn
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Hi Robyn,
Thomas Goldsmith was born c 02/10/1757 in Herstmonceux Sussex, which is not far from Hailsham as you said he married Priscilla Green on the 04/06/1780 in Hailsham. Thomas was my Grtx4 Grandfather,that is all the information I have on them at the moment.
My Grtx 5 George Goldsmith b 14/01/1724 in Wartling Sussex, his wife Sarah Hover b 07/02/1721 in Warbleton Sussex, were married on the 21/04/1747 in Herstmonceux Sussex, I have no dates of death as yet.James Goldsmith my Grtx6 b 26/04/1696 in Wartling Sussex,Married Elizabeth Potter/or Petter,on the 16/02/1719 in Wartling Sussex. I have no date of birth for Elizabeth as yet, she died on the 24/01/1744/1745 in Wartling.I have no date of death for James as yet.
The last Goldsmith in my tree is Thomas my Grtx6 Grandfarther I have no date of birth, just his date of marriage which was 21/09/1693 ;Din Lewes Sussex, he married Elizabeth West who was born in c 1671 in Wartling.
The above dates are from our family tree given to me some time a go
so some of the dates could be a bit out. I hope this is of help to you, when I have more information I will pass it on.
Kind Regards Thom :)
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I have an Emma LUSTED born to Robert LUSTED and Catherine PERRY. Emma was baptised on 30 Aug 1801 at Heathfield, Sussex.
Does anyone have knowledge of Emma?
Brian...
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I have an Emma LUSTED, born to Robert LUSTED and Catherine PERRY born about 1801 and babtised on 30 Aug 1801, at Heathfield, Sussex. Whether Emma ever married I do not know. I believe that Emma may have passed away in 1827, and that she was buried on 04 Jan, 1827 at Heathfield.
Is it possible that Emma is the same as the Emma in your post?
Brian.
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Hi and welcome
There is a marriage for Emma Lusted to Thomas Goldsmith at Hellingly on 24th Dec 1822. Is the burial under the name Lusted ? That would imply that she did not marry. I have not read this whole thread so the answers may be posted earlier!
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There is a burial at Hellingly for an Emma Lusted infant on 22 Jan 1801 and another in 1835 for a child age 3 months so there were a few of them around. The Emma Lusted who is buried at Heathfield in 1827 was age 25.
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I know that Robert LUSTED was baptised on 27 Feb 1820 at Heathfield, Sussex, with his mother given as Emma. Robert married Jane COLINS between Jul and Sep 1842, at Hailsham, Sussex. Robert died in 1899. Robert and Jane had eight children.
George LUSTED b. 1844 at Heathfield, m. 1873 to Jane MEPHAM, d 1907 at Uckfield.
Emma LUSTED b. 1847 at Heathfield, m. ???, d. 1919 at Uckfield.
Robert LUSTED b. 14 Oct 1849 at Heathfield, m. 26 May 1876 at Waipahi, New Zealand to Emily CODLIN, d. 1900 at Balclutha, New Zealand.
Jane LUSTED b. 1852 at Hailsham, m. 24 Dec 1871 to Alfred HAZELDEN at Mayfield, d. 1932 London.
Henry LUSTED b. 1855 atHeathfield, m. 25 Nov 1877 to Emma WILLIAMS at Brighton, d. 06 Oct 1920 at Ticehurst.
Mary Ann LUSTED b. 1859 at Heathfield, m. ???, d. 24 Aug 1893 at Wye, Kent.
Caroline LUSTED b. 1862 at Steyning, m. 1903 to ???, d. 1935 Hastings, Sussex.
William LUSTED b. 1865 at Mayfield, d. 1866 at Uckfield.
The big question is; was Robert LUSTED's (1820-1899) mother Emma, actually Emma LUSTED (1801-1827), and was Robert LUSTED illegitimate?
Brian...
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It does look as if he was illegitimate as the register entry for his baptism says he is baseborn. (horrible expression!)
Entry from Heathfield All Saints 1813 - 1846
First names Robert Surname LUSTED
Sex s Baptism Date 27-Feb 1820
Mother first names Emma Mother surname LUSTED
Occupation Pauper Notes Baseborn
Parish Heathfield County East Sussex
You might find it interesting to join the Sussex Family History Group as they have a lot of online records for members only.
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NZ Kiwis, my great grannys brother died as a baby, they were Romany gypsies with the Roberts surname. The informant was an Edward Collins 'uncle', signed with a cross. Have you come across Roberts linked to your Collins? I have an extensive family tree but cant link the Collins. I should add that the places were the same, Hellingly and Hailsham.