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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: KathMc on Saturday 17 November 07 21:14 GMT (UK)
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Now that was a big tease, wasn't it? ;D Here's my mystery:
I have just received a transcription of passenger records for some ancestors of mine:
Western Australia Genealogical Society Passenger arrivals in Western Australia 1839 to 1890
Departed from London on Chollerton arr. Fremantle 24/03/87
Passenger Remarks
Hayes, Walter Master With Agnes Acc503
'' Hannah Mrs Mrs John Acc503
'' John Junior Acc503
'' Mary, Miss Daughter of John Acc503
'' Clara, Miss With Agnes Acc503
'' Timothy, Master With Agnes Acc503
'' MInnie, Miss Daughter of John Acc503
"" Agnes, Mrs and family Acc503
"" John, Mr and family Acc503
'' Margaret Daughter of John Acc503
John and Hannah are the parents. Mrs. Agnes Hayes is really Miss and is 16 years old. She is John and Hannah's oldest daughter. John Jr, Minnie, Mary, and Margaret are their other children. Now the dilemma: I have no idea who Timothy, Clara and Walter are, how old they are, who they belong to. I can't believe Agnes has 3 illegitimate kids at the age of 16. And I have not found them with the family in Penkridge, Staffordshire before this. John has 2 brothers I can't account for: Michael (b. Ireland @1845) and George (b. Penkridge 1859). The family came to England shortly after Michael's birth, were in Liverpool for a period (where John was born) and then settled in Penkridge.
I haven't actually seen the passenger list, just this transcription. I searched online but couldn't find it myself. I found, in searching the BMDs, a Timothy (b. 1872), Walter (b. 1884) and two Clara's (one b. 1876 and one 1879) in West Derby, Lancs, but couldn't find on the 1881 census, so am not sure if they are the same kids and who their parents are.
I need some direction for this one. As I said, I haven't seen the actual passenger list and wonder if they couldn't be kids in the care of Agnes on the ship and the name is just wrong here? Could I be wrong and Agnes could possibly have 3 illegitimate children at the age of 16? And if they are the children of either Michael or George, are their parents dead or did they go to Australia earlier and John and Hannah brought the kids at a later date?
HELP please.
Kath
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Children of a deceased (or even living) sibling, perhaps?
meles
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That's is what I am thinking/hoping, but would be a sibling's of John Sr. I can't seem to find those two anywhere (Michael and George). I am just not sure what direction to go in now, after checking the 1881 census and BMDs. I did check some online Australian records, but ... oh, I need fresh eyes. It is probably right in front of me what I should do. I don't know what happened to the three mystery children once they arrived in Australia, but I don't think John and Hannah raised them.
Kath
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Kath
Can you tell us more?
Perhaps list the parents, with dob and places of birth, and the children with what you do know.
Then the odd ones out.
Then we can scour for what we can find out. But I tried to look, and found I'm missing some pretty essential info!
meles
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1881 RG11/2784
Cannock, Staffs
John Hayes, 33, coalminer, b Liverpool
Hannah Hayes, 38, wife, b Bednall, Staffs
Agnes Jane Hayes, 9, dau, b Pye Green
Willm James, 5, b PG
Minnie Hayes, 3, dau, b PG
Caroline Hodson, 28, sister-in-law, dressmaker, b Milford, Staffs
John Hayes, 7, son, b PG
Mary Hayes, 1, dau, b PG
1871 Teddedley Hay, Staffs
James Hayes, 50, ag lab, b Ireland
Margaret Hayes, 52, b Ireland
John Hayes, 22, son, lab in coal work, b Liverpool
James Hayes, 19, garden lab, b Pemkridge
George Hayes, 11, b Huntingdon, Staffs
Richard
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Hi Kath
it might be worth posting on the emigrants to Australia board. There are some good searchers there who might be able to trace them via marriage/death records and get their parents names for you.
Gadget :)
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Oh! That was unexpected! The ages are all over the place.
Richard - Thanks
I can see the difficulty now, Kath.
meles
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Any sign of Timothy, Walter and Clara :-\
Gadget
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Poss for Timothy, b. 1872 on the 1881:
11 Mazzine Street, West Derby
Timothy J Hayes, 39, blacksmith, b. Liverpool
Elizabeth, 38, b. Lancaster
George, 14, Boilermker app, b. Liverpool
Elizabeth, 11, b. Liverpool
Timothy, 9, b. Liverpool
Sarah, 7, b. Liverpool
William, 4, b. Liverpool
Barbara, 2, b. Liverpool
William, boarder, 31, quay carter, b. Liverpool
Robert Bale, boarder, 40, boiler maker, b. Lancaster
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Thanks all for responding. To start, I do have the census records for the Hayes family from 1851 onward. James Sr. is also in the 1891, living with his deceased wife's sister (as well as with her in the 1881), still in Staffs. James and his wife Margaret (McLean) were both born in Ireland. If the 1891 census is correct, in Wexford. Margaret died in 1880 and by 1881, her sister Mary is living with James. The 1861 census would also include a daughter, Mary Jane, who died in 1870, age 15. As you can see, Michael is gone by 1871, and George by 1881. James is working in an asylum in the 1881 census and then heads to America (he is the gentleman in my avatar and my gg grandfather). I have no clue what happened to George and Michael. And to be honest, until just a couple years ago, I had no clue of them at all. My great aunt and my mother remember James talking about John and Mary Jane but never mentioned the others. There is rumor of a falling out with some family members and I have wondered if that was why he never mentioned them. I wouldn't say it's because they died, because Mary Jane did also, but the family knew about her.
For John and Hannah, their son William James died in 1884. Caroline Hodson was Hannah's sister and I am not sure what became of her.
Can I tell you anything else? Let me know. I will post a link to this thread on the Australia boards. I just cut and paste, right? I am sure someone will correct it if it's wrong (yay for the moderators ;D).
Kath
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Gadget,
I wouldn't know who this father is, though, unless he could be John Sr.'s cousin. I know nothing of the family beyond James Sr. and Margaret, and Margaret's sister Mary. Timothy doesn't seem to be a popular name in England at that time, but I do have a gg grandfather born in Ireland named Timothy. I am wracking my brains, and wearing out my computer, trying to come up with solutions and/or scenarios.
Kath
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That was the only one I found that fitted, Kath. I'm not sure if it's related or not :-\
I still think that the best bet would be to ask on the Oz board. They do know a lot about the immigrant records and afterwards.
Gadget
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Hi Kath
Australian passenger lists tend not to be very informative. They don't usually indicate relationships so Agnes's family could simply be a case of sharing accomodation. Also there are different columns for adults, children, infants etc so even if they don't have ages, you do get an indication.
The other thing the actual passenger list has is the passengers destination. Many ships travelling to Australia would visit more than one port. For example they may call into Fremantle (which is in Western Australia) Adelaide, Melbourne and Sydney and as passenger lists are just that, not immigration, they include not only people disembarking but people continueing to other ports. Unless you know your Hayes family settled in Western Australia you need to find there destination as BMD records are held by individual States not centrally.
Andy
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Thanks Gadget. I just posted on the Australia board with a link to this thread. Thanks for that suggestion. I wasn't sure which board to post on originally, as there are ties to England and Australia. Now I keep my fingers crossed and keep hunting.
Kath
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Good luck, Kath. I saw your posting. I think you did the right thing. They are very good on these matters :)
Gadget
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Andy,
Thanks for all that. I do know what happened to the Hayes siblings (where they went, who they married, etc). It's Timothy, Walter and Clare I am at a loss for. And I would love to see the passenger list, to know exactly how it was all set up and what might have been lost in transcription. I know they all disembarked in Fremantle. This is a whole new world for me, research in Australia. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Kath
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Good luck, Kath. I saw your posting. I think you did the right thing. They are very good on these matters :)
Gadget
Thanks Gadget. Now for a glass of wine. It is evening where I am. ;D
Kath
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Mrs. Agnes Hayes is really Miss and is 16 years old. She is John and Hannah's oldest daughter.
They might have been doing something shifty to qualify for assisted passage as a family grouping? Else she is not actually your Agnes at all, could be a cousin's wife and family going to join her husband.
Are you able to obtain more information from the genealogical society?
If is was an assisted passage then there would be much more information given - ages, if they could read and/or write, religion, if they had employment to go to, stuff like that. There is scant information for persons who paid their own way.
And then there is this entry elsewhere for the family - does not mention these other people being with them at all.
http://202.14.152.31/search_viewlisting.asp?PID=807&PN=12&SearchKey=H&SearchType=2
Christine
Australia
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without knowing the state they went to its a bit difficult. i had a look through the wa marriages and didnt see any for clara,walter or timothy.
this is the wa page for family history
http://www.wags.org.au/index.html
if you do find anything in wa i can allways pop in to the library to check more records for you
perth
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Christine,
Thanks for the bit about assisted passage. I will see what I can find out. I can't imagine this Agnes isn't there Agnes. There are records of her marriage and death. I did see that piece from the museum. It was added by the great-grandson of John Sr. He does not have a lot of the personal history of the Hayes family. When his grandmother died right after childbirth, John Jr. took the kids to his wife's sisters to be raised and then disappeared. So we are all working blind, but finding great clues.
Perth,
Thanks for the link and the offer. I have been playing on that site quite a bit lately, trying to find something. I might take you up on your offer.
Kath
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http://www.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/GenResearch.html
Hello ther Kath
this is a link to the MCB Metropolitian Cemeteries Boar for Perth
have a browse there you will find a lot of Hayes buried
An Agnes Hayes is there buried in 1913 age given as 34
regards Jenn
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Hi Kath
On http://www.wags.org.au/genisite.htm
there are lots of useful links - I would try the postal directories at the Battye library site.
http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/pdf/battye/pods/Post_Office_Directories_Contents.html
Cheers
cando
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I have no problem finding the people who I already know about. Surprise surprise. I feel like Timothy, Walter and Clara dropped of the face of the earth. I think maybe they weren't really Hayes but traveled as such. How easy would that have been, does anyone know. What kind of proof of identification did you need back then?
Thanks for these sites, though. I did find John Sr in a directory, and found a bunch of Hayes members. Agnes actually died in 1923. She married Robert Wainwright. I did find a Clara Jane Hayes on the cemetery site and the age could possibly work, if she never married. It had her born in 1874. How would I follow up on information I found there? Is there a way to find her parents names or if she was married? I've never ordered an Australian death cert if that is what I wold need to do.
Kath
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On the 1916 Electoral Rolls for Western Australia, there is Clara Jane Hayes listed at 7th Avenue Maylands, married.
Also at 7th Avenue Maylands is John Joseph Hayes, labourer and Rosie May hayes, domestic servant.
They also appear on later Electoral Rolls for WA.
The Electoral Rolls that are available are newly accessable on Ancestry. I've tried looking for your people but it is rather difficult, as there are so many Hayes. :-\
.....dee
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Dee,
thanks so much. I would believe that is the Clara Jane I found, as the suburb of Maylands was listed for her. So she would not be my traveling girl. Yes there are a lot of Hayes. My dumb luck. And funny, all of John and Hannah's kids had middle names except John Jr., who disappeared around 1906 and no one has been able to track him down. I know his grandson has tried very hard, but try finding a John Hayes :P. I will have to spend some time looking at resources in other parts of Australia and see what I come up with. I know John and Hannah's daughters moved around Australia a bit, so I shouldn't assume anything.
Kath
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Hi Kath
Caroline Hodson was Hannah's sister and I am not sure what became of her.
It looks like Caroline Hodson married William Birch in 1881 at Castle Town, St Andrew's Mission Chuch (St Thomas) Source is http://www.bmsgh.org/staffsbmd/index.html
It was June Qtr Stafford Registration District Vol 6b Page 7
It looks like they emigrated to Australia as there are Western Australian births as follows.
Surname Given Names Sex Father Mother Place of Birth Registration District Registration Number Registration Year
BIRCH HAROLD WILLIAM HODSO WILLIAM HODSON CAROLINE GUILDFORD 871 1889 order
BIRCH PERCY VINCENT WILLIAM HODSON CAROLINE FREMANTLE 490 1892 order
BIRCH WILLIAM HARRY WILLIAM HODSON CAROLINE FREMANTLE 448 1896 order
BIRCH VIOLET WILLIAM HODGSON CAROLINE FREMANTLE 1418 1894 order
I'm wondering whether Walter, Clara & Timothy are in fact their children. It would be worth checking if William & Caroline Birch also travelled on the Chollerton. The passenger list may have only given the first names and the transcriber assumed that because they were with Agnes, it was Hayes.
One of the things I have seen on passenger lists are several siblings on the same line, and just the ages in the relevent columns. This could also explain why their ages are not given if the transcriber couldn't match names and ages.
Ancestry has now started to put Australian Electoral Rolls on line and in 1901, 1906 & 1916 William & Caroline Birch wer living at Harper St, Midland Junction, Western Australia
Andy
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Andy,
thanks for all of this. I woke up this morning to find this info and of course had to spent a couple hours researching things. I checked the BMDs and didn't find Walter, Timothy or Clara Birch all together to be them. I also found online a history written by an 80-year-old gentleman in 2003 and his stepfather was Percy Vincent Birch and he had two sons. I won't put their names here as they might still be alive. I also found deaths for the 3 boys, and also a William Hodson Birch, who might have been one of these boys sons (but not Percy's). And I found a marriage for Harold William Hodson to an Ivy Manuel. I have also forwarded this info on to Hodson descendants. I actually am not. I am from the Hayes side, my gg grandfather being John's brother. But I am fascinated and addicted anyway, and that is why I spent so much time researching someone else's family :-[ ;D
And now I keep looking. Thanks so much for this. I know my Australian relatives are going to be thrilled with this info.
Best,
Kath
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Hi Kath
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/recordsearch.aspx
The above is a link to a document that I'm sure is Mary Hayes, daughter of John & Hannah. It is her Attestation as a nurse in the AIF in WW1.
Select Search Now - as a guest user
In Keywords (or name) insert Hayes Staffordshire
There is 1 match - Select Display
Select "View Digital Copy" and it opens an image.
Mary's next of kin is her brother-in-law E J Gregory. I found a marriage in Perth in 1914 between Edgar Gregory and Minnie F Dease. I think Minnie is Mary's older sister as I also found an earlier marriage in 1907 in Victoria, Australia, brides name Minnie Hayes and grooms surname Dease.
If you have any problems, let me know.
Andy
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Moderator Comment: Information on living persons removed in the interest of privacy
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,142443.0.html
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Thanks a lot for this guys. I have copied the cert and will send it along to family, in case they don't have it. I am in touch with Minnie's granddaughter, a granddaughter of Margaret's and a grandson of John Jr's. In fact, I have a lovely picture of three of the girls. I will see if I can add it here. I am not so good about it. It is, left to right, Margaret, Minnie, and Mary.
Moderator Comment: Image cropped to remove scanner bed and resized to fit page
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i just remembered why this address was in my memory. i had my car stolen from this street about 8 years ago. if you would like a pic of the address i will have a look and see if its still the old house there
perth
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Perth,
That would be wonderful, if not too much trouble. What a strange coincidence. Thanks so much.
And thanks for resizing my photo. I tried, albeit unsuscessfully. One of these days I will get it all. ::)
Kath
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What an interesting mystery! I've been following it with great interest!
If you do find a death for any of your mysterious ones, Kath, it would be definitely worth getting the certificate. It has details like occupation, age, father's name and occupation, mother's maiden name, where born, time in colony/state, place married, age at marriage, spouse, and children of marriage, etc, etc. Very informative!
MarieC
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Thanks Marie,
I do have a couple death certificates from Australia and they have so much information, as long as (like American certs) someone is around to give the info. I will be sure to keep everyone updated. I am waiting for one of my sources to contact me with the passenger list also. Maybe the transcription is all wrong and they were just in the care of Agnes and have totally different last names. I am trying to be patient.
Kath
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Kath,
;D ;D ;D ;D
I know how hard it is! Patience is not one of my prominent virtues! ::) ::)
MarieC
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Thanks Marie. I will be away from my computer for a couple days for our Thanksgiving. Maybe by the time I get back I will have an answer.
Kath
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hi kath
i had a look today and the original house is still there. i tried to knock on the door but the gate was locked. i took these anyway. its a very nice old house, i hope you can see that on the pics
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Oh, thank you. that is a lovely home isn't it. How wonderful to see where they lived. Thanks again so much.
Kath
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Perth,
I feel like such an idiot. I sent the link for the pix to the different branches of the family that are in Australia and it appears one of my "cousins" still lives there. I was so embarrassed when she sent back a response that "Yup, that's the house, with a new coat of paint I put on it..." I guess in our email correspondence we had never exchanged actual addresses. Now I can send her a holiday card, though. Oh, and speaking of that, Perth or mods, can you take her address out of this thread. I guess we won't want that there.
Thanks.
Kath
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;D ;D oops kath well i did try to ask ::) ::)
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I know, funny. Who knew. I didn't, and I have been in contact with her. And another relative in Australia who has been in contact had no idea either. The woman living in the house didn't mind. She thought it was pretty funny. I thank you for your effort. It was definitely appreciated.
Kath