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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: harewoodhouse on Saturday 24 November 07 04:26 GMT (UK)
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do any of you know who wrote these poems...or can tell me what they say as I can make some of it out but not enough to figure it all out, they are called
"Upon the death of Queen Elizabeth" and "Upon Sir Francis Drakes return from his voyage ? ? "
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I found them on some paper tucked into an old (C1800) history book and I would love to know who wrote them and what they say :P
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What a great find.
Judging by the lines:
O Fie, O Fie, O Fie, O Fie, O Fie thou cruel death
for thou has taken away from us
Our good Queen Elizabeth
Another line reads:
To make her concience prick her
Nor ever would submit to him
That called himself Christ ....
But rather chose Couragiously
To fight under his Banner
... ... and the Pope The King of Spain
And all the dwell with ... her.
Ending with the last line reading:
Of the proud Pope of Rome.
Looks like this poem is about the life of Elizabeth, her standing up to Philip of Spain and the Spanish Armada.
It looks 17th century phrases and writing although it may have been copied from a pamphlet of the time.
Jean
Modified because the unknown words .... came up as smileys :-[
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It's something well known (or well known, then !).
One line reads "you gallants all of the british blood", so I put that in a search engine and got this Oxford University 'hit':
NOTES AND QUERIES.
murder of their brethren here, 1 warrant you."—Act. I. Sc. 5 (p. 7.)1 ... Gallants all of British blood,. Why do not ye sail on the ocean'sflood? ...
nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/s3-VI/144/266-d.pdf -
Unfortunately it's a subscription site so I couldn't actually read what they said about it.
But "Act. I. Sc. 5 (p. 7.)" suggests a play.
Bob
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Even better:
http://www.sourcetext.com/sourcebook/Star/21-40/ch21.html
getting nearer, but still not quite there:
Sir Francis, Sir Francis, Sir Francis is come!
Sir Robert, and eke Sir William his son,
And eke the good Earl of Huntington
Marched gallantly on the road.
Then came the Lord Chamberlain with his white staff,
And all the people began to laugh;
And then the Queen began to speak,
"You're welcome home, Sir Francis Drake."
You gallants all o' the British blood,
Why don't you sail o' the ocean flood?
I protest you're not all worth a filbert
If once compared to Sir Humphrey Gilbert.
For he went out on a rainy day,
And to the new-found land found out his way,
With many a gallant both fresh and green,
And he ne'er came home again. God bless the Queen! 4
4. EIizabethan Lyrics, coll. by Norman Ault
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I love trying to read old writing, but I can't make out much of this.
I do love the lines,
'They came with ships, filled full of Whipps...'
and
'But she had a Drake, made them all cry Quake,'
They don't write em like that any more...
What a fantastic find.
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I think Whipps may be a name for the Spanish - possibly a derisary name.
Jean
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In this ancient grey fuzziness that passes for my brain, I seem to remember something about a duff up between our Admiral Blake and the Dutch Admiral Van Tromp in the 1650s... Popular story was that Van Tromp tied a broom to his mast to show that he would sweep the seas, and Blake retaliated by tying a whip to his mast and saying he would whip him.... perhaps there was a going symbolism there that we have forgotten...
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I don't think the transcriptions are necessarily that old. There are elements of the Secretary hand used in England in the 17th and 18th centuries (even the 19th) but the spelling is far too consistent with modern spelling for them to be very old. The capital letter 'U' is of an old style, as is the use of 'ff' as the capital F, but the 'H' is not old. Neither does the writer use the long 's'
Norman Ault as given in Bob's post, was a scholar of seventeenth century poetry and of Alexander Pope. Ault died in 1950. He published an anthology of Elizabethan lyrics in 1925.
Bob's quote is the second one exactly!
Nell
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:D Thanks all, I knew that you clever guys would be able to help me. It just amazes me how much you all seem to know !...so now I have to get the words of the first one or find myself a copy of this Norman Aults book to find out who wrote the poems originally, I think someone must of read them and copied them down so they could keep them, it looks like they were written on one of the blank pages from the front of a book, but not the Cassell's History that I am reading as the page is bigger (I only folded it up so I could scan it to put it on here) I did wonder if appeared in this book and someone had copied it out but I cant find it , it does have a section where it gives examples of poetry of that time frame but not these two..I am no writing expert :P I thought it said o cry o cry and I thought the double ff was just someone putting their hand on a wet letter and making a smudge print of it..ha-ha
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I've transcribed the longer one of the two and spent some time looking for it on the net without success. But unless I've read it wrong, it's definitely meant as a dig at the perceived enemy - the last two lines seem a bit vulgar! :o ???
Upon the Death of Queen Elizabeth
F’well ye all both great and small
& f’well yee all truly
That we have now a very great cause
for to lament and cry
O fye, O fye, O fye, O fye O fy thou cruell death
For thou hast taken away from us
Our good Queen Elizabeth
He might have taken other folkes
That bother might have been must
And let us alone with our good Queene
That lov’d not a Popish Priest
Shee rul’d this Nation by her selfe
& was beholden to no man
O shee bore the Sway, & of all affaires
& yet shee was but a woman
A woman (Quoth I) and that is more
Than anie man can tell
How faire shee was & how chast she was
There’s no man know it well
The Monsieur came himself from France
On purpose for to wooe here
And yet shhe liv’d and dyed a maid
Doe what he could to her
Shee never did anie wicked act
To make her conscience prick her
Nor ever would submitt to him
That call’d himselfe Christ’s Vicar
But rather chose couragiously
To fight under his Banner
Gainst Turke and Pope & King of Spaine
And all that durst withstan here
In Eighty Eight how shee did fight
Is known to all and some
When the Spaniard came her courage to tame
But had better have stay’d at home
They came with Ships, filld full of Whipps
To have lasht her Princely Hide
But shh had a Drake made them all cry Quake
& banged them back and side
A wiser Queen never was to be seen
for a woman or yet a Stouter
For if ane thing ……. her
With that wch came next her
O How shee would lay about her
And her Scholarship I may may not … ship
For there shee did so ..ell?
That amongst the ……..without all double
Queen Besse shee bore the bell
And now if I had ….eyes
They were one too few to weep
For our good Queene Elizabeth
That here lyes fast asleep
A sleep shee lyes, & so shee must lye
Untill a the day of Doome
But then shee’l arise & pisse ri…the Eyes
Of the proud Pope of Rome
Nell
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:D Fantastic !! Thanks Nell...I had worked out a bit of it but I just couldn't figure out the rest, mind you it has some words I have never heard of before in it (what does eke mean in the Sir Frances Drake poem? I thought eke meant to make something last) and when it says o fye what does that mean , I thought if you were o fye with something it meant you knew all about it...(you can tell I left school when I was 15) I love finding all books in old junk shops and reading them, I never really knew any English history as it wasn't taught in our school much, we mainly were taught the history of new zealand which as it was only discovered a few hundred years beforehand was not much (the Maori had no written language) I will print out the poems and keep them with the paper so if anyone else comes across them they will know what they say...thank you all !..oh I must go and see the Queen Elizabeth movie that is out, have any of you been to see it ? is it any good ?...sue
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Eke is apparently an archaic word for "also" - so that would fit.
The "eighty Eight" in the first poem refers to the Spanish Armada which tried to invade England in 1588 and was seen off by a combination of Drake and his pals plus the appalling British weather!
Fie is an exclamation of outrage - also relatively archaic.
No, not seen the film.
Nell
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I am still looking for who wrote them...came across this really interesting site thought someone from here might find it interesting as well
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/h/hakluyt/voyages/v08/complete.html
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Re the poem on the Death of Queen Elizabeth, I've highlighted in red a possible interpretation of the difficult words in the last few lines:
A wiser Queen never was to be seen
for a woman or yet a Stouter
For if anie thing vext her
With that wch came next her
O How shee would lay about her
And her Scholarship I may not let slip
For there shee did so excell
That amongst the Vout without all doubt
Queen Besse shee bore the bell
And now if I had Argus eyes
They were one too few to weep
For our good Queene Elizabeth
That here lyes fast asleep
A sleep shee lyes, & so shee must lye
Untill a the day of Doome
But then shee’l arise & pisse out the Eyes
Of the proud Pope of Rome
Michael.
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the heading for the Frances Drake poem reads if I am not mistaken
"Upon Sir Frances Drakes return from his voyage (about the world ?) and the queen knighting him", well that was in 1581 when he was knighted so that narrows down my surch for an author a little bit ::) had to be someone born after that date ::) hmm no problem...ha-ha
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And now if I had Argus eyes
Wonder if this line in modern parlance would read
'And now if I had extra eyes'
Problem here as I see it is the first letter of the word is obviously not the letter e. (Check the e of the words eyes)
In fact the word itself looks a bit odd. The first two letters do not seem to be written quite in character with the rest of the writing. I am wondering if it has been copied from something and the writer couldn't quite decipher the word.
4. EIizabethan Lyrics, coll. by Norman Ault
Norman Ault as given in Bob's post, was a scholar of seventeenth century poetry and of Alexander Pope. Ault died in 1950. He published an anthology of Elizabethan lyrics in 1925.
Berlin Bob and Nell may have hit the nail on the head.
Tried to find out what a Whipp is or was and the nearest I have been able to find is the word 'Whipster' which meant cunning person and was used late 17c to early 19c.
Jean
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In Greek mythology, Argus Panoptes or Argos (Άργος), guardian of the heifer-nymph Io and son of Arestor,[1] was a giant with a hundred eyes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_Panoptes
Hi Jean,
Yes, that sounds like 'extra' eyes to me ;D
Bob
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A couple of bits of paper with some old writing on, found in a book.
Anyone else would have slung it in the bin.
It takes a RootsChatter to stop and try to read what it says, and more RootsChatters to try to interpret it and find its meaning and time of origin...
I love this board!
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I found the norman ault book on the net
http://www.openlibrary.org/details/elizabethanlyric008142mbp
found the francis drake poem (104).....but alas it says it is by Anon :-\ and the poem about the Queen is not in it at all
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the heading for the Frances Drake poem reads if I am not mistaken
"Upon Sir Frances Drakes return from his voyage (about the world ?) and the queen knighting him", ...
I read it as "meeting" him - I expected it to be knighting but there was no way I could make the letters I can see read that.
Thanks for the Argus eyes - I really couldn't make sense of that at all! Now I can see that so easily!
Nell
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Thanks for the Argus eyes - I really couldn't make sense of that at all! Now I can see that so easily!
Nell
What a difference those 100 eyes made! # 'I can see clearly now' ;D
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It's very difficult to date secretary hand as it was used for such a long time - I'd guess whoever copied it out had a day job connected to the legal profession.
.... at least you can rule out Victorian with the last two lines" :o
Carole
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Hi Nell
do you think it could mean pierce out the eyes...as they were very into poking out the eyes of the enemy back then...just a thought
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do you think it could mean pierce out the eyes
erm, no - I can't see the letters 'e' and 'r' in the word which begins 'p'. I do see 'ss'
The next word may begin with 'r' and seems to end with 't'
I could hazard a guess, but I can't see the letter 'g' - but there agains maybe the spelling was off ???
Nell
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;D one of those she-wees would of come in handy then...haha
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Hi Nell,
You've made a great job of deciphering those two poems, I should imagine your eyes were getting rather tired towards the end.
do you think it could mean pierce out the eyes
erm, no - I can't see the letters 'e' and 'r' in the word which begins 'p'. I do see 'ss'
The next word may begin with 'r' and seems to end with 't'
I could hazard a guess, but I can't see the letter 'g' - but there agains maybe the spelling was off ???
Nell
I'm pretty sure the next word begins with the letter 'o' - compare that with the two o's in 'Proud Pope' in the line below. The next letter is a 'u', compare it with that in 'But' at the start of the line; and the final letter is t as at the start of the next word
What appears to be the dot of an 'i' is more likely to be an ink blob - there are quite a few of those all the way through.
Whoever wrote these must have used a quill - are they difficult to use?
Regards Michael.
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This is interesting, but might not be as old as all that. I have pens and could write in the same style. The best thing to get a rough idea of date is to look at the paper it is written on, it is definitely machine made, in fact the large piece looks like part of an envelope.
Mike
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This is interesting, but might not be as old as all that. I have pens and could write in the same style. The best thing to get a rough idea of date is to look at the paper it is written on, it is definitely machine made, in fact the large piece looks like part of an envelope.
Mike
This is the trouble in dating secretary hand which was used on offical legal documents for several hundred years - really until they started to type them - without a context it is very difficult to date it.
Carole
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Sorry if this a bit off topic, but as I a member of a pub quiz team, who last night was faced with the question, who was the giant from Greek mythology with 100 eyes, I would like to thank Berlin Bob for my being able to answer correctly.
Before reading this topic I would not have had a clue, isn't it amazing what genealogy teaches you!!
Sharpie
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do you think it could mean pierce out the eyes...as they were very into poking out the eyes of the enemy back then...just a thought
I think it's a typical Elizabethan conceit (ie a play on words) - he's saying that even if he had Argos' eyes (ie 100 eyes) he could not cry enough.
meles
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;) I think Berlin Bob would be a good ringer in a pub quiz team
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According to Brewer's Phrase and Fable, Oh Fie! is an expression of reproof and dates back at least to Chaucer's time.
I tried to think of a modern equivalent but without success. What would you say, folks?
HarewoodHouse, the phrase you were thinking of is 'au fait' which means to be 'in the know' about things
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thanks rancegal ;D which is why I would be lousy in a pub quiz