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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Moray (Elginshire) => Topic started by: GDub71 on Sunday 25 November 07 11:35 GMT (UK)

Title: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: GDub71 on Sunday 25 November 07 11:35 GMT (UK)
Hi, I'm looking for anyone who might be descended from the Phinn family who lived in Rothes from about 1850, prior to which they had moved around Speyside; Birnie, Aberlour, Mortlach and Kirkmichael. Up until around 1825 they seem to have been settled in Knockando, but before 1800 they were in Inveravon.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: J11 on Wednesday 27 April 11 19:47 BST (UK)
I noticed you posted this ages ago; but, in case you are still interested, I have some information on a Janet Phinn of Knockando who is probably related to your Phinns as Knockando is tiny.  According to the Kirk Session records, Janet Phinn and Charles Grant were censured for antenuptial fornication in 1816.  They married on 5th. April, 1816 when Charles was just 18 and lived at the Waulkmill in Knockando which Charles took over from his father.  By 1823 he was the sole tenant so his father had either died or moved away.  Janet was up before the Kirk Sessions again in 1839 for "being with child by George Donald of Cardnach". Charles died 4 years later at the age of 55.  She lived on at the Waulkmill.  Information on the Mill and tenants can be found on the Knockando Woolmill Trust website.

Jenny
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: GDub71 on Wednesday 27 April 11 20:37 BST (UK)
Hi thanks, yes she was a sister to Charles Phinn who also worked at the woolen mill. I didn't know about the second child you have named, so that's interesting.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 28 April 11 13:52 BST (UK)
I have

Agnes Phinn, daughter of Charles Phinn and Jean Todd, born 22 May 1817 in Birnie, married John Cruickshank in StAndrews-Lhanbryd on 2 August 1846 and died in Urquhart 1903. They had no family.

Charles Fin/Phinn/Phyn and Jean/Jane Todd also had

James, baptised 24 October 1802, Boharm
John, baptised 22 April 1804, Boharm
Elizabeth, baptised 23 December 1806, Boharm

In 1841 Charles (79) and Jane (67) were at Darkland, Lhanbryde with Alexander (40), John (35), Agnes (20), Margaret (7) and James (6), plus two servants and Anne Mitchell, 78. Charles, Alexander, John and Anne Mitchell were not born in Moray, the rest were.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: GDub71 on Thursday 28 April 11 15:26 BST (UK)
Hi Forfarian,

I've seen the Phinn's at Birnie and Darkland before and the shared Christian name of Charles might be more than coincidental. That said, if there is a link it must be some way further back. The Phinn's I have were at Drummin in Inveravon in the mid 18th Century.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 28 April 11 18:44 BST (UK)
Possible, especially given that Charles wasn't born in Moray. Aged 79 in 1841, he would have been born 1761/2. I wondered if he could be the one baptised in Boharm on 2 November 1761, son of Alexander Phin and Jean Young. Part of Boharm is in Banffshire, so this would make sense.

I note with interest that in 1841 a Charles Phin, aged 15, is in the household of Janet Young, 65, and her family Margaret, 45, grocer; James, 35, schoolmaster and John, 35.

In 1851 Janet Young is listed as 79, born Cromdale, and Margaret (57) and James (50), parochial schoolmaster, were born in Dallas. John Young (48), flesher, is in School House, Dallas with nephew Charles Phinn, 25.

In 1861, James, 60, is schoolmaster, and in the household are his brother John (58) flesher and tenant of land; sister Margaret (67), grocer; nephew Charles Phinn (34), born Knockando; visitor Ann Phinn, widow, 63, born Dallas and George Gammie, visitor, aged 5, born Mortlach. I just happen to know (because this George Gammie married a distant cousin of mine) that George Gammie's mother was one Margaret Phin.





Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: J11 on Thursday 28 April 11 19:18 BST (UK)
One further Phinn for you.  In 1806, the Knockando Kirk Session have a John Phinn recorded as having been the Kirk Treasurer since 1800.  Janet's father possibly?

Jenny
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: GDub71 on Thursday 28 April 11 20:33 BST (UK)
Correct, parents of Janet and Charles Phinn were John Phinn (Wool Miller) and Anne Riddels(s).
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: J11 on Friday 29 April 11 09:49 BST (UK)
I was interested in John Phinn's profession as wool miller.  There were 4 carding mills and one woolmill ( Waulkmill ) in Knockando parish all associated with the wool industry.  My ancestor, William Grant (master dyer), was the brother of Charles Grant who married Janet Phinn.  His father, also William and also a dyer, was the tenant of the woolmill and surrounding 26 acres so I assume your ancestor had one of the carding mills.  The floods of 1829 washed away the carding mill and miller's house at the mouth of the Knockando Burn just downstream from the Waulkmill.  If this was your ancestor's mill it could account for the relocation from Knockando and peripatetic nature of the next 20 years.  Do you know of any sources of local history for the 18th and early 19thC in the area apart from the Kirk Session records, Bishops "The Lands and People of Moray" and the Statistical Accounts for Scotland of 1791?

Jenny
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 29 April 11 11:51 BST (UK)
Janet was up before the Kirk Sessions again in 1839 for "being with child by George Donald of Cardnach".

Can you be 100% certain that this was Janet Phinn or Grant, who would have been aged 44 in 1839, and not her daughter Janet Grant?

I ask because the 1851 census lists Janet McDonald, aged 11, as the granddaughter of Janet Phinn or Grant at Waukmill.

There is a baptism on 21 April 1839 of Janet McDonald, born 22 March 1839, daughter of George McDonald and Janet Grant. If it had been Janet Phinn or Grant, I would have expected the register to state her maiden name.

Of course if the Kirk Session minutes mention adultery rather than (mere) fornication, or if it specifies that the mother is Janet Phinn, or says that she is the wife of Charles Grant, that would clinch it.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: GDub71 on Friday 29 April 11 14:40 BST (UK)
Possible, especially given that Charles wasn't born in Moray. Aged 79 in 1841, he would have been born 1761/2. I wondered if he could be the one baptised in Boharm on 2 November 1761, son of Alexander Phin and Jean Young. Part of Boharm is in Banffshire, so this would make sense.

I note with interest that in 1841 a Charles Phin, aged 15, is in the household of Janet Young, 65, and her family Margaret, 45, grocer; James, 35, schoolmaster and John, 35.

In 1851 Janet Young is listed as 79, born Cromdale, and Margaret (57) and James (50), parochial schoolmaster, were born in Dallas. John Young (48), flesher, is in School House, Dallas with nephew Charles Phinn, 25.

In 1861, James, 60, is schoolmaster, and in the household are his brother John (58) flesher and tenant of land; sister Margaret (67), grocer; nephew Charles Phinn (34), born Knockando; visitor Ann Phinn, widow, 63, born Dallas and George Gammie, visitor, aged 5, born Mortlach. I just happen to know (because this George Gammie married a distant cousin of mine) that George Gammie's mother was one Margaret Phin.


These Young's were the relatives of my wife's ancestor Charles Phinn (born 1792) who married Ann Young from Dallas, who would be the Ann Phinn widow of 1861. The Charles Phinn aged 15 in 1841 is their son. They also had a daughter Margaret born in 1834 who must surely be the mother of George Gammie. She also had children with Surnames Mitchell, Davidson and Burgess, so one more illegitimate child won't make much difference.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 29 April 11 15:25 BST (UK)
These Youngs were the relatives of my wife's ancestor Charles Phinn (born 1792) who married Ann Young from Dallas, who would be the Ann Phinn widow of 1861. The Charles Phinn aged 15 in 1841 is their son. They also had a daughter Margaret born in 1834 who must surely be the mother of George Gammie. She also had children with Surnames Mitchell, Davidson and Burgess, so one more illegitimate child won't make much difference.

Yes, I've been doing a bit more investigation. This is the same Margaret Phinn. She actually had at least seven illegitimate children, and as far as I can see they were all by different fathers: George Gammie (1854); Janet Fraser (1857); Charles Phinn (1858); James Davidson (1862); William Phinn (1865); Robert Burgess (1868) and John Mitchell (1876/7), all born in Mortlach. I also have a note from one of her descendants that she always "used to keep an eye on her children and their families and would turn up smoking a pipe".

In 1841 she was listed as a 7-year-old with her parents and elder sister Janet at Haugh of Edinglassy, Mortlach. In 1851 she is listed at Haugh, Mortlach, aged 17, with her mother Ann Young, who is shown as married, but I can't find Charles on FreeCEN. Come 1861 Margaret was on her own at Haugh, Edinglass, aged 26 or 28,depending which transcription you believe, with her birthplace given as Strathdon! In 1881 she was still at Haugh of Edinglassie, aged 47, and still unmarried, with sons James Davidson, 18; Robert Burgess, 12; and John Mitchell, 4. She died in Mortlach in 1909, aged 74, according to the index at Scotland's People.
 
 
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: GDub71 on Friday 29 April 11 17:11 BST (UK)
Janet Fraser was actually Margaret's Niece by her sister Ann Phinn and her husband Alexander Fraser. Their eldest child I believe.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 29 April 11 17:24 BST (UK)
Janet Fraser was actually Margaret's Niece by her sister Ann Phinn and her husband Alexander Fraser. Their eldest child I believe.

Sorry about that. Actually this Janet Fraser was the daughter of Alexander Fraser and Janet or Jessie Phinn, not Ann Phinn. Alexander and Jessie were married in Birnie in 1856 and Janet or Jessie was their first child.

Anne
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: J11 on Friday 29 April 11 20:37 BST (UK)
Forfarian,

You could well be right about Janet Phinn/Grant, although 44 is not too old.  I checked my source and it says Janet GRANT with no mention of adultery.  In the Mid 19thC women were beginning to take their husband's names in this area.  I don't know which name she gave in the census of 1851, she may still have been using Phinn.  Any daughter of Charles and Janet would certainly have been a Grant.  I wasn't aware they had a daughter called Janet so it may well be her, and the "granddaughter" entry seems fairly conclusive.  Only way to be absolutely certain is to check the Kirk Session records in the NAS.  I only have notes on them in "The Lands and People of Moray - Knockando".

Jenny
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 29 April 11 21:16 BST (UK)
You could well be right about Janet Phinn/Grant, although 44 is not too old.

No, but adultery by a 44-year old married woman who is still living with her husband would have been so scandalous that the Kirk Session could not fail to make a huge fuss about it, and I am sure that Bruce Bishop would not have overlooked something as big as that when compiling his booklet.

Quote
I checked my source and it says Janet GRANT with no mention of adultery.  In the Mid 19thC women were beginning to take their husband's names in this area. 

Yes, but I think in a case like this I am sure the KS would have spelled it out.

Quote
I don't know which name she gave in the census of 1851, she may still have been using Phinn.

Grant.

Quote
Any daughter of Charles and Janet would certainly have been a Grant.  I wasn't aware they had a daughter called Janet

Baptised in Knockando on 7 May 1816 - three days after her parents' marriage so probably born before the wedding.

Quote
Only way to be absolutely certain is to check the Kirk Session records in the NAS.  I only have notes on them in "The Lands and People of Moray - Knockando".

Indeed.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: Muirhouse on Saturday 18 June 11 05:12 BST (UK)
I am a direct descendant of Alexander Phyn and Jean Young, Their Son Charles Phyn and wife Jane Tod, (Achluncart,Boharm and llanbryde) their son John Phyn and wife Margaret Gordon (Boharm, Darklands and Lossiemouth) and their son William Phyn my Great Grandfather.

In a book called Territorial Soldiering North East Scotland there is Roll for the Gordons Northern Fencibles which lists a Johm Phyn who attested in 1793 at age 18.

If you do a search of the Public Reords Office London Webpage they come up with a Robert Phin of Inveravon
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: GDub71 on Saturday 31 December 11 10:44 GMT (UK)
If you do a search of the Public Reords Office London Webpage they come up with a Robert Phin of Inveravon

I think I know who this is, although it took a bit of thinking:

According to the OPR: Robert Phyn and Jean Young had a son born at Drummin, Inveravon, Banffshire - 1st October 1852 (name not shown or unrecognisable).

The age is right, the location is right and the father is called Robert so...

As far as I can tell, they were the only Phyn's in Inveravon at that time, certainly as regards having children at least! It's got to be him and since he is on my wife's line I might delve further!
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: valda 27 on Saturday 14 April 12 10:33 BST (UK)
Jenny 11,
Thought you might be interested to know  I am descended from Charles Grant and his wife Janet  Phin through their elder son, James (born September 1823) who  migrated to Melbourne in 1852     After making an unsuccessful visit to the Victorian Goldfields he married Elizabeth Murray in Melbourne in 1858.  In 1859 he purchased property  in the newly surveyed Parish of Tyabb on the Mornington Peninsula.    He died in Somerville in 1909 and was buried in Frankston Cemetery.     He and Elizabeth were the parents of Elizabeth, Charles, James, John (my grandfather) George and Henry.   In the early days of settlement James and his wife ran the first Somerville postal delivery from their home, and with two other settlers purchased land for a church/school house.     The Grant family became prominent Victorian orchardists, with fruit judged both in Melbourne and London exhibitions.    They also operated large fruit tree nurseries.

I understand that  the 1835 Register of the Waulkmill/Knockando Church of Scotland has a seat reservation for Charles Grant and his wife Janet, and family.     Included are  James and his brother William, who was then under 7 (born 2 June 1833).     William's son, James, born 1855 also migrated to Australia, where - after arrival in 1880 - he lived for some years in Somerville,  with his uncle  James  Grant, before settling permanently in  New South Wales.      Valda 27
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: GDub71 on Saturday 14 April 12 15:58 BST (UK)
Hi Valda,

I have you on my family tree, as well as a large number of other descendants of James Grant and Elizabeth Murray. I've always noticed that families who emigrated to Australia seemed to multiply greatly there, while stay-at-home Scots had much smaller families.

The Grant and Phinn families probably knew each other very well, from working together at Waukmill. I take it you know all about the attempts to restore the Woolen Mill:

http://www.knockandowoolmill.org.uk/about.htm

Graham
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: valda 27 on Saturday 14 April 12 21:21 BST (UK)
Thank you Graham,  Glad we are on your 'Tree'!

We did not know about the Mill when we visited Knockando many, many decades ago, though a 1970s photo alerted us.    Wonderful effort to know it has been restored to achieve such a valuable place in  history.

In the 1950s we had a large Grant reunion in Somerville of the relatives of of my great-grandfather, James - now the numbers would have doubled!      Glad to have found this link with you all.    Valda
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: J11 on Sunday 15 April 12 11:08 BST (UK)
Thanks for the information.  I thought I ought to let you know that, as part of the restoration of the Knockando Woolmill Graeme Stuart, the current weaver, is planning a booklet on the woolmill families.  He and I are both looking into whether we can prove that Charles Grant is actually William Grant's son.  It has always been assumed because Charles appeared to take the mill over from William but that is not necessarily the case.  I'm copying you the letters I sent Graeme recently:

"...I've just downloaded Charles Grant and Janet Phinn's marriage record and it says:
"1816 May 7th, Charles Grant in the parish of Cromdale and Janet Phinn in this parish were matrimonially contracted and married."
William and Ann Grant, who were in Dulnain Bridge by this time (she died there in 1812), were in the parish of Inverallen, southern half of Grantown and surrounding countryside to the south, whereas Cromdale was the northern half of Grantown and surrounding countryside to the north.

I've also downloaded the baptism record of the child born in 1816:
"1816 May 4th, Janet daughter of Charles Grant and Janet Phinn in Waukmill baptised.  Charles Phinn there and William Margach in Stripeside (?) witnesses."
Charles Phinn was John Phinn's son, Janet's brother.  Charles Phinn THERE as opposed to Charles Phinn Daisy Farm, etc. is saying that Charles Phinn was at the Waukmill too as the Knockando entries usually name the farm, etc. the witnesses are from.  The only other entry I've seen with a THERE on it is where the groom and witness have the same surname - father and son?

We only know Charles Grant's d.o.b. roughly, i.e. from his age at death in 1843 which is c45.  Ages recorded at death are often out by a number of years; people lie, children get it wrong, etc.  There are 3 Charles Grants born in Morayshire between 1794 and 1800, all in the then united parish of Cromdale and Inverallen.

10.03.1796: parents James Grant and Penuel Grant
30.04.1800: parents John Grant or Morrison and Janet Gordon
29.06.1800: parents Charles Grant and Elspet Grant.

Charles and Janet had four daughters, Janet 1816 (named for her mother), Ann 1821 (named for her maternal grandmother) and 1827 twins Jane and Elspet (named for her paternal grandmother?) which would follow the traditional naming pattern.  I think it's looking possible that Charles Grant is not William and Anne's son but the son of Charles and Elspet Grant, that John Phinn took the lease over from William Grant when William went to Dulnain Bridge, that Charles Grant and Janet Phinn lived at the Waukmill with Janet's parents on their marriage in 1816 and that Charles took over the lease from John Phinn when he moved on or died in 1823.  However, could be wrong.  Daughter Ann could be named for both grandmothers!..."

And another letter:

"...William Grant definitely had a mill at Dulnain Bridge in the early 19thC.  His gravestone at Duthil Cemetery reads:
"Erected by Lachlan Grant in memory of his father William Grant, late Dyer at Dulnain Bridge who departed this life 14th Jan 1822 also his spouse Ann Grant died Jan 1812."

Lachlan was their second son, the first was another William - my 3xG Grandfather. The question I have been pondering is whether William would have kept the lease on Knockando when he also had Dulnain Bridge.  I understand leases in those days were usually for 19 years so he may not have renewed in 1803 going to Dulnain Bridge and then X took over to be replaced by Charles Grant in 1822.  The Kirk Session record could be lagging the event, or the lease may have taken time to renew so Charles wasn't actually signed up until 1823.  If that is so then the family link to Charles Grant is broken and, given the number of Grants in Knockando at the time, there would be no reason to assume a relationship.  William and Ann paid for 3 children, William, Lachlan and Marion, to be recorded in the Kirk Session records so why not Charles if he was one of theirs?  Will keep looking and report back..."


If you have any information that could help sort this out one way or the other I'd love to know.

Jenny
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: PGrant on Monday 16 April 12 00:39 BST (UK)
Jenny, I just joined Roots Chat, because I noticed you post about William Middleton Grant from Winnipeg is you Great Uncle - my Grandfather was William Middleton Grant, from Glasgow, moved to Winnipeg after the WW1, had one son my father William, born October 1922, and 2 duaghters, Helen and Margaret. My grandfather relocated to Etobicoke Ontario, worked for Income Tax Canada for many years. My father was a doctor, until he passed July 4th 2009.  I am trying to locate relatives in Scotland and Ireland - my other grandparents are from Belfast.
My daughter is looking at a number of universities in Scotland and near London, as she wants to experience school there.  I have been over a number of times but have never had the opportunity to spend enough time
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Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: valda 27 on Tuesday 17 April 12 09:08 BST (UK)
Thank you Jenny for the 'info'.  I did reply but probably not in a correct form.  As a local historian, I appreciate the task before you, and am sorry not to be of much help, having only researched our Australian side.    In Australia, James gave the occupation of his father (Charles Grant) as 'Wool Merchant' on his 1858 Marriage Certificate.   By 1909 it appeared as 'Woollen Mill Owner' on his Death Certificate!   Rather a contrast with  'Dyer' on the 1835 Waulkmill pew list;   'Wool Dyer' on the 1841 Census;  and 'Wool Miller' in the 1875 Deaths - for his 78 year old widow Janet (parents John and Ann Phin - one 'n').  Informant - granddaughter McDonald.

Census returns of course only list those at home - but they do provide a good indication of how people moved around.    If the details of the 1841 census can be accepted as reliable, with Charles and Janet both 45, that would indicate they were born c.1896.  That would make them 20 when they married - rather more likely perhaps than would be the case if Charles were born in 1800?    15 years old for the conception of the child;  and then the birth and marriage at 16 is very young, but not of course beyond possibility.   

Regards, Valda
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 17 April 12 10:05 BST (UK)
If the details of the 1841 census can be accepted as reliable, with Charles and Janet both 45, that would indicate they were born c.1896.  That would make them 20 when they married - rather more likely perhaps than would be the case if Charles were born in 1800?   

Remember that in 1841 the census enumerators were instructed to round adults' ages down to the nearest 5 years. So someone listed as 45 could actually be aged anything from 45 to 49. Also the census that year was held on 7 June, so someone born in 1791, but after 7 June, would not have had their 50th birthday by census day, and would show up as aged 45.

So if they gave their ages correctly to the enumerator Charles and Jane were born some time between 8 June 1791 and 7 June 1796.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: J11 on Tuesday 17 April 12 12:47 BST (UK)
I've widened the search down to 1790 and only one more Charles Grant appears in Moray or Inverness, a son of William Grant and Ann Mann in Ardesier (near Fort George) in 1792.  I think the only chance of a definite result will be the Kirk Session records for 1816 where details of the "antenuptual fornication" are recorded and which may give the parents' names and/or addresses.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 17 April 12 14:04 BST (UK)
I've widened the search down to 1790 and only one more Charles Grant appears in Moray or Inverness, a son of William Grant and Ann Mann in Ardesier (near Fort George

Actually Fort George is in the parish of Ardersier.

William Grant and Ann Mann had six children baptised in Ardersier between 1778 and 1792. Their marriage banns were proclaimed in both Ardersier and Cawdor (in the county of Nairn, but next door to Ardersier) so it looks as if they may have been residents there rather than William being a soldier temporarily posted to Fort George.

Quote
I think the only chance of a definite result will be the Kirk Session records for 1816 where details of the "antenuptual fornication" are recorded and which may give the parents' names and/or addresses.

Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: GDub71 on Sunday 13 May 12 12:49 BST (UK)
If you do a search of the Public Reords Office London Webpage they come up with a Robert Phin of Inveravon

I think I know who this is, although it took a bit of thinking:

According to the OPR: Robert Phyn and Jean Young had a son born at Drummin, Inveravon, Banffshire - 1st October 1852 (name not shown or unrecognisable).

The age is right, the location is right and the father is called Robert so...

As far as I can tell, they were the only Phyn's in Inveravon at that time, certainly as regards having children at least! It's got to be him and since he is on my wife's line I might delve further!

Further to this post I made, I have found conclusive proof that Robert Phyn the soldier, "was" the son of Robert Phyn, gardener at Drummin. From Inveravon Kirk Sessions: "1770 - Robert Phyn, son to Robert Phyn, gardener in Drumin, father of a child by Ann Fraser."
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: SueM01 on Wednesday 18 May 16 02:51 BST (UK)
Hi Jenny,  Charles Grant and Janet Phinn were my 3rd GGrandparents, I just read this post and I was wondering if you ever found out any other information about Charles' parents.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: J11 on Wednesday 18 May 16 09:35 BST (UK)
Hello SueM01,

What I have established is that, between the birth of Marion Grant in 1788 and Peter in 1790, William and Anne Grant left the Waukmill in Knockando and moved to Craggan near Granton and then in about 1795 went to Dulnain Bridge where they ended their days.  There is a reference to John Phinn having the woolmill in the 1790s in the Kirk Session accounts, I can't remember the exact date, and he is certainly the tenant when Janet married Charles.  Given the near twenty year gap between William and Anne leaving Knockando, the lack of a baptismal record for a Charles to William and Anne when all their other children are registered and the enormous number of Grants in the area I can't see any reason for him being William and Anne's son.  As my interest is William and Anne, I'm afraid I haven't pursued this one any further.  Sorry I can't help.  Jenny
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: SueM01 on Saturday 21 May 16 00:39 BST (UK)
Hi Jenny. I've been trying to find an answer to this one for a while. I don't think I'll ever know for sure who his parents were.
Thank you
Sue
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: pjandj on Sunday 15 April 18 03:53 BST (UK)
I have also been looking for the parents of Charles Grant as he is my 3x great grandfather.  I came across this discussion and I have something to add to the discussion.
It seems that it is possible that William and Ann Grant are his parents but there is no confirmation of Charles Grant's birth when all their other children are baptised either in Knockando or Cromdale & Inverallan.  I have found a birth record in the 1792 Session Book for Cromdale for an unnamed child born to " William Grant, Litster, Craggon and Ann Grant his spouse had a child Bapt Jan 1st 1792" (a Lister is a dyer of cloth) . I noted that Ann Grant also gave birth to another child in December of 1792 so maybe this is part of the puzzle that a birth record for Charles in that year was overlooked.  It makes sense that Charles may be born in 1792.  The only record of is age is on the 1841 census when his age is recorded as 45.  The census takers rounded an age down to the nearest 5 years so that would mean he could be born from 1792 to 1796.  Another confirmation to this deduction is that on the 1816 marriage record for Charles and Janet Phinn states that Charles was from the Parish of Cromdale.  I realize that William and Ann Grant were by then living at Dulnain but Charles Grant could have been living on his own in the Parish of Cromdale being aged 24.
I would be interested to see what you think of this theory.
Pauline
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 15 April 18 09:24 BST (UK)
The only record of is age is on the 1841 census when his age is recorded as 45.  The census takers rounded an age down to the nearest 5 years so that would mean he could be born from 1792 to 1796.
8 June 1791 to 7 June 1796 - see previous post in this thread discussing interpretation of ages in the 1841 census
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: J11 on Tuesday 17 April 18 09:52 BST (UK)
Regarding the unnamed child born to William and Anne Grant in 1792, there can be a number of reasons why a child would not have its name registered. 
Some registrars in parishes didn't actually record the name of children baptised but just put "a son" or "a daughter".  That doesn't apply in this case.  All the records on the page are written in the same writing and all have the child's name bar this one entry. 
Sometimes the registrar is writing the entry after the baptism and has forgotten the name of the child.  If they normally put a name in they may leave a blank for the name to add later but, on occasion, may forget to do it.
The most common reason for an entry to have no name when all the others on the page do is that the child is dying or not expected to survive.  William and Anne had a child every two to three years with the exception of 1792 when they had the unnamed child baptised in January and Catharine baptised in December.  Although one cannot rely on breast feeding as a method of contraception, most women do find that they don't conceive in the 6 months or so after the birth when breast feeding exclusively.
In the absence of a name for the 1792 birth and no other information, it is impossible to say whether the child survived or not.  I still see no reason for that child to be Charles Grant given the prevalence of the name Grant in the area and that up to a third of baptisms weren't recorded.
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: pjandj on Thursday 19 April 18 14:12 BST (UK)
Jenny,
I was thinking that the way to determine if Charles is a child of William and Ann Grant is to compare DNA.  You are descendant from William and Ann's son William and I am descendant from Charles Grant so if Charles is William and Ann's son we should share DNA.  Have you had your DNA done? if so we should compare.
Pauline
Title: Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
Post by: J11 on Friday 20 April 18 10:31 BST (UK)
No, I haven't had my DNA done.  Even if we found we had a common ancestor it would only tell us that we had a common ancestor, not that it was Charles.  Also, if there was no common ancestor, to dismiss the connection would be to assume that all the connections in my tree are biologically true and not the result of a bit of surreptitious adultery.  It's always possible the link has been broken somewhere.  That is why I rely on paper records. 

The reason you are thinking of William and Anne being the parents of Charles is that William had the tenancy of the Waukmill up to the end of the 1780s and Charles married the daughter of the subsequent tenant Janet Phinn some 15 odd years later.  Were it not for that coincidence, the unnamed child would be very low on the list of possibles.  There were 2 Charles Grants baptised in Inveravon, Banff (the neighbouring parish over the Spey linked by a ferry to Knockando) between 1790 and 1800; and 3 in the parish of Cromdale and Inverallen where Charles was living when he married.  That doesn't mean he was born in Cromdale, just that he was a member of that parish at the time but, even if he was, 1 in 5 of all baptisms in Cromdale for this decade were of Grants.  There are 3 more Charles Grant baptisms listed for Banff county and a total of 19 Charles Grants in Scotland as a whole.  Furthermore, there are likely to be a good half dozen or more unregistered Charles Grant baptisms. I'm afraid, short of finding more documentary evidence, Charles's parentage is likely to remain a mystery.