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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: adee7 on Sunday 02 December 07 23:48 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm looking for informatioin on MARY SUTTIE and JAMES KYD or KIDD -- their births, etc. and their ancestry and family if possible.
Their daughter Isabella b. 1832, Chrichen, Dunichan, d. 1858 Nevay, Parish of Eassie & Nevay.
In 1855 she married William Johnston of Forfar.
Your assistance will be appreciated.
Regards, Kathleen
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Hello Kathleen,
Isabella was born Isobel Kyd on the 9th of May 1832, and christened on the 13th of that month, in Dunnichen, Angus. Her parents are listed as James Kyd and Mary Suttie. Unfortunately, the IGI (International Genealogical Index) doesn't show any other children for these parents, nor can I see a marriage for them. ScotlandsPeople may reveal more dates, however.
Do you have an occupation for James Kyd/Kidd from Isabella's marriage certificate? I spot a family in 1841, but am unsure if they are yours. :)
hume24
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Hi,
Thanks for the information and correct spelling.
I don't have any information on the family at all -- only those names.
Kathleen
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The marriage certificate gives no information on her parents :-\
The daeth cert might :-\
Gadget
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Just says Mary Sootie (deceased) :(
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget,
and Happy Easter to you too, I guess. ;D ;D
Kathleen
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hi pal,
could this be your family?
1841 census- march of lawton or lunabank
james...age 45...shoemaker
mary...age 41
mary..age 15
joseph...age 6
david...age 4
james...age 2
george christie...age 25...tailor
thomas christie...age 19
1851 census- march, inverkeilor
james...age 56...shoemaker...born st.vigeans, forfarshire
mary...age 56...born montrose
jane...age 7...dau...born inverkeilor
john...age 18..visitor..shoe maker
james christie...age 79...visitor...farm lab
alexander boath...lodger...age 32...shoemaker...born brechin
1861 census- 8 high street, arbroath
james...age 66...shoe maker
mary s...age 61
jane...age 17...weaver
Joe
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Hi joe :)
The Mary, nee Sutie/Sootie was dead before 1858 according to Isabella's death cert :(
Gadget
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hi gadget,
just saw the igi's and that mary was mary christie......
Joe
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Wrong one then :-\
Any sign of Isabella (variations) on the 1841 with parents/grandparents?
Gadget
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Just a note to say those were the same that I found. :( And likewise, I found the Christie name.
Kathleen, perhaps you could view the original OPR on ScotlandsPeople for the 1832 birth? It may give an occupation for James? ???
hume24
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It says:
13th May - James Kyd, farm servant at Ovenstone (?) in the parish of Inverarity and Mary Suttie in this parish both persons unmarried had a child baptised ..Isobel. May 1832
So Isobel(la) could be with her mother, grandparents or anywhere in the 1841.
Maybe look for Suttie/Sootie/variations.
Gadget
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hi gadget,
kingsmuir , forfar
david kyd...age 60...weaver
isabell..age 58
ann...age 34...servant
bell...age 9
helen roberts...age 16...servant
Joe
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That could be James' parents and Bell (Isabel) - well done, Joe :)
Gadget
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Indeed. Well done, Joe, sheer hard work on that one. :)
Wonder if this is them? David Kid weds Isobel Robert in 1800 in Dunnichen. They have son, James (Kyd), born 1812 in Forfar.
hume24
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looks good, Hume
Any sign of Mary Sutie/Sootie?
I'll go take a look but she might have died early on :-\
Gadget
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Marriage/Banns showing for a Mary Suttie and James Caird - Barry and Panbride, Angus 21 Sept and 12th October 1833.
Could this be Mary :-\
Also wondering about Caird->Kyd !
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Hi,
Joe, Gadget, and Hume,
Great work you're doing to help me with this.
I was away for a time because I had to dig out the 12" or so of snow from my front door, my walkway, and my car.
I'll read through your information now.
Thanks, Kathleen
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hi all,
1851 census- south kingmuir
david kyd...age 69...weaver...born oathlaw c1782
isobel...age 69...born dunnichen c1782
ann...age 48...weaver...born dunnichen c1802
isobel...age 18...weaver...grand-daughter
Joe
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must ask if this address matches the one given on the marriage cert of 1855?
Joe
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I'll check that , Joe
The Mary Suttie who married James Caird died 1888, aged 77, Barru, Angus :-\
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Wow! Looks promising.
I don't have a ScotlandsPeople account at the moment, which is why I'm stymied.
Kathleen
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This is what the residence says - don't worry, Kathleen. i think I've got most of them :)
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Gadge,
Thank you, thank you.
I can see Parish of Forfar, but not sure of the other words.
Kathleen
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Kathleen
Did you get that Isobel was illegitimate?
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Yes, I saw that.
(Actually, I always thought it a cruel label, but that's for discussion elsewhere.)
Kathleen
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Yes, it is but there are other descriptions that I like less :-\
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I see Caddam, Parish of Forfar as her location.
Still not seeing anything for Mary. :-\ I saw the marriage to James Caird, but I wasn't sure about it, given that it wasn't listed on the marriage certificate. However, it not always is! There's also the issue of the death details. Again, :-\
Quick summary of the Kydds, though?
David Kidd (born 1776 in Oathlaw, son of William) weds Isobel Robert (born 1778 in Dunnichen, dau. of Charles R and Mary Weir) in 1800, Dunnichen. They have a son, James (born 1812 in Forfar) who has a daughter, Isobel (born 1832 in Dunnichen), with Mary Suttie/Souttie.
hume24
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I'll check for a marriage of James Kydd...
Gadget
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Hume,
I knew from a relative's notes that Isobel was born in
Dunnichen, so it looks like the right one.
Kathleen
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Interesting one or two or more of marriages for James Kydd and variations:
Barry:
1837 to Elizabeth Lithgow
1838 to Ann Kyd
Forfar:
1837 to Ann Henderson
Inverarity:
1840 to Jean Walker
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hi all,
caddam looks good to me, goes with kingsmuir.
Joe
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Can I ask if James is deceased by 1855/1858? Just checking up on the marriages you found, Gadget. :)
hume24
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No mention of either on the marriage cert, hume, and just Mary Sootie, deceased on the death cert :(
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In later years, some of the grandchildren had the name Kidd as their middle names.
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Many thanks to all of you for your help. :) :) :)
Kathleen
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I've found James Kidd's death cert:
29th December 1894
James Kidd, dairyman, married to Catherine Mann, Coldham, Parish of Forfar. Aged 84 years.
Parents - David Kidd, crofter, deceased and Ibbie, maiden surname Roberts, deceased,
Informant - ? McAndrew, son in law.
Gadget
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Possible in 1841
Out House, Mains and Strathmartine
307 ED 1 page 11
James Kidd, 25-9, Ag lab
Catherine, 25-29
Agnes, 2
James, 1
all born Angus
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1851
East Mains of Finty, Mains
307 ED 1 page 19
James Kidd, 37, Ag lab, b. Forfar
Catherine Mann, 34, b. Carmyllie
Agnes Kidd,12, b. Vigeans
James, 10, b. Mains
William, 5, b. Mains
Charles, 2, b. Mains
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Gadget, :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Thank you so very much for your help.
It looks as though he was father of Isobel at a young age, and had 2 'spouses'.
Kathleen
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I'm amazed how you do it, Gadget! 8)
I'd post the other census entries for James, but Ancestry doesn't seem to want to work this morning. ::) I'll try again later.
hume24
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That's what stopped me last night (early hours this morning), hume. The big A :(
Gadget
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Now that Ancestry is working again, here's James in the censuses: 8)
1861 Address: New Mains, Mains, Angus
James Kidd, m, head, 48, carter and cowfeeder, Forfar, Forfarshire
Catherine ", f, wife, 45, -, Carmylie, Forfarshire
Ann ", f, dau., 18, dairymaid, Mains, Forfarshire
David ", m, son, 9, -, Mains, Forfarshire
Mary ", f, dau., 6, scholar, Mains, Forfarshire
Alexander ", m, son, 3, -, Mains, Forfarshire
Agnes ", f, great-g-dau., 1, -, Mains, Forfarshire
Betsy ", f, dau., 2 months, -, Mains, Forfarshire
1871 Address: ?? Mains, Mains, Angus
James Kidd, m, head 59, ag lab, Forfar, Forfarshire
Catherine ", f, wife, 55, -, Carmylie, Forfarshire
Mary ", f, dau., 16, -, Mains, Forfarshire
Alexander ", m, son, 13, -, Mains, Forfarshire
Betsy ", f, dau., 10, scholar, Mains, Forfarshire
1881 Address: 63 Albert St, Dundee, Angus
James Kidd, m, head, 70, labourer, Forfar, Forfarshire
Catherine ", f, wife, 66, -. Carmylie, Forfarshire
Betsy ", f, dau., 20, -, Mains, Forfarshire
I can't see him straight away in 1891, but he must be there somewhere, given he died in 1894. Actually, there's a possible in Barry, but he's a retired civil servant. It doesn't match up at all with the above. :-\
hume24
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Hume,
I really appreciate all the help you've given me in finding
another elusive ancestor.
Regards,
Kathleen :) :)
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I'll have a look at the 1891 again, hume :)
I was over in Dunfermline!
Gadget
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1891
Caldhame Rd, Forfar
Rd 288 Ed 28 Page 7
James Kydd, 82, living on private means, b. Dunnichen
Catherine, 77, b. Carmyllie
Betsy Dick, 12, boarder, scholar, b.Forfar
Betsy Byars, 10, boarder, scholar, b.Forfar
Gadget :)
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I'm sure I searched for Catherine too, just in case. Well done. :D
Just to add, Catherine died 1898, aged 83, in Forfar.
hume24
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I've searched and searched for Mary Suttie/Sootie, etc. but can find no sign of a birth or death. There was a male Suttie in Dunnichen having children in the early 1830s who might be worth investigating. It could be a brother :-\
Gadget
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I mentioned to a friend that we couldn't find Mary Suttie's information and she offered some help as I've done for her in the searchings.
She found 1851 Scotland Census -- Arbroath Parish
Mary Suttie, 45,
b. Abt 1806 Monifieth, Forfar
Servant in the home of William and Jane Scott
Address: Back Abbey Street #11
This could be her.
Kathleen
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Hi Gadget,
Are we talking about William Suttie, 48 in 1851? If so, he was born 1802 in Monifieth, Angus. Parents were William Suttie and Mary Findlay. He did have a sister named Mary, born 1806, also in Monifieth. I'll try and find her on the census.
hume24
We were both typing at the same time, Kathleen. I think it's a possible. :)
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I think that's the one, Hume.
William Suttie and Catherine Ramsay had the following children, Dunichen:
1831 - Agnes
1833 - Elizabeth
1835 - William
William Suttie and Margaret Sturrock had the following children, Dunichen:
1835 - James
Gadget
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Again, many thanks, Gadget and Hume
I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see the names
Ramsay and Sturrock, as there are other
Johnston connections with those.
Regards,
Kathleen
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I know Mary was supposed to have been dead by 1858 but this looks interesting:
18th May 1881
Death, Monikie
Mary Suttie, fomerly domestic servant, single, aged 72.
Parents - William Suttie, crofter, dec. and Mary m.s. Findlay.
Informant - James Suttie, Brother
Gadget
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I'm amazed how you find these certificates. :o Mary in 1881 and 1871:
1881 Address: Guildie, Monikie, Angus
James Suttie, m, head, 65, farmer of 14 acres, Monifieth, Forfarshire
...
Mary Suttie, f, sister, 74, -, Monifieth, Forfarshire
1871 Address: 24 Clerk St, Brechin, Angus
Mary Sutter [sic], f, head, 54, housekeeper, Monifieth, Forfarshire
hume24
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It's my Scots blood, hume :)
PS - is there anything we've missed ::)
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Isn't it possible that there was misinformation on Isobel's 1858 death certificate when it was stated that her mother was deceased?
Could such a thing happen? :)
No, I don't think you've missed anything.
Regards,
Kathleen
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Isn't it possible that there was misinformation on Isobel's 1858 death certificate when it was stated that her mother was deceased?
Could such a thing happen? :)
Kathleen
It could, Kathleen, particularly if she had been brought up by the Kidd grandparents. She might not have known very much about her mother. Howver, we can't prove either way at the moment :-\
Gadget
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For sure.
Now, with all this help, Mary Suttie is no longer
'unknown', and that's terrific.
Kathleen