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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Soureau on Wednesday 12 December 07 23:19 GMT (UK)
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Good evening,
I have recently found RootsChat and find this site very convivial.
As I speak, read and write fluent French, it occurred to me that if anyone has a problem with French documents in their family researches, I might be able to help.
For what it's worth.........!
Soureau
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Merci beaucoup, Soureau! :D
I am reasonably fluent in French, but also have French ancestors who are difficult to trace. If I find anything that I cannot translate confidently, I'll be in touch!
MarieC
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Hi Soureau
I might take you up on your offer of translating for a 1825 French Insurance Policy relating to my gg grandfather, Charles Belin. He was actually English, living and teaching in France.
I had a friend who did translate it for me, but she had trouble with the translation of an illness which is mentioned in the first couple of sentences. She thought it read "He states that he has had a mild attack of small pox but otherwise has not been subject to any other illness or grave infirmity". She was not quite sure about "small pox".
What do you think it is?
Les
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Good morning Les,
I confirm that "la petite vérole" is translated by smallpox. By precaution I checked with my huge Le Robert & Collins dictionary, but they say the same thing, although an alternative could possibly be syphilis. However, I reckon that in the context small pox is the correct translation.
Interesting document though, and Belin sounds French anyway. There's a well-known brand of biscuits - Les Biscuits Belin - available today in most supermarkets !
Nick
And for Marie:
Il n'y a pas de quoi ! Si je peux aider, ce serait avec plaisir !
Nick
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Hi all :D
I agree it's smallpox too but I can't see any mention of 'a mild attack'. He merely states he had had smallpox.
:)
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Interesting document though, and Belin sounds French anyway. There's a well-known brand of biscuits - Les Biscuits Belin - available today in most supermarkets !
Nick
Hi Nick
Thanks for the translation. I'm glad he survived small pox.
The surname does sound French, and has been a "bug bear" for many years in our family as to whether it is French or English? As the Insurance policy reads, Charles Jospeh Belin was born in Salisbury, England. His father taught French in that town, but we can't find where he was born. Charles was educated at Oxford, and became a Deacon. He opened an English School in France (Insurance Policy was probably a result of him living in France). He later went to the University of Paris, and married in the British Embassy in Paris. His first child was born in Le Harve. After a couple of years as Vice Principal of Elizabeth College, Guernsey, he returned to England where was a Headmaster in Guildford, then later a Minister in Northampshire. It was after his return to England, that he changed his surname from "Belin" to "de Belin", that surname now passed down through the generations.
My name is Les de Belin, which sounds a bit like your brand of biscuits!!! ;D
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Fascinating stuff ! Your ancestor certainly made his way around.
One thing though, having had a closer look at the text, I totally agree with Tati's remark that there is no mention of a "mild attack", only that he had had small pox, full stop.
Nick
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Hi Nick
This is the translation I received from my friend. As there was some doubt over the "mild attack" of small pox, is the rest fairly accurate? It doesn't have to be exactly precise, but as long as its close enough to understand its context.
Les
This is the Policy for Mr Charles Joseph Belin, presently residing in Ingouville, near Le Havre, who declares that he was born in Salisbury on the fifth of October, 1789. He states that he has had a mild attack of small pox but otherwise has not been subject to any other illness or grave infirmity.
The Company pledged itself to follow the general arrangements as stated above and below, and to pay on the death of the said Mr Belin in accordance with the agreement made on the 26th of April, the sum of ten thousand francs to his listed inheritors who are entitled, and who outlive him.
This present Policy rests on the condition that the first premium of one hundred and eighty one francs is paid, and which is pledged to the Company on the same day and date of each year until the year 1829.
If the insured person fails to pay on the 27th of April next year, the Insurance Company has nothing to pay on the first payment already made.
Written and signed and sent to Paris for the Insurance Company 27th April 1825.
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And for Marie:
Il n'y a pas de quoi ! Si je peux aider, ce serait avec plaisir !
Nick
Nick,
Vous êtes très gentil!
(Now if you also knew about tracing people who lived in Guadeloupe back to pre-Revolutionary France, that would be even better!!!)
MarieC
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Good evening Les,
Any way you could blow up the French text or make it a little sharper ?
The left hand margin appears to have cut off some words, or half of them. Perhaps that's due to the original ? It's a little fuzzy this end, although I can make out most of it ok.
Nick
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Good evening Marie,
I'm not bad at a lot of things, but I can't guarantee Guadeloupe ! However, it could be an interesting challenge.
I have yet to find my way around French genealogy websites, although I have been provided with some information on the subject. However, my British researches took off so fast that I have to confess that they have occupied me full time up until now.
Now if I could find the French equivalent of RootsChat (RacinesChat ?!)
- somehow it doesn't translate that succinctly ! - we would be in business !
I'll keep a weather eye open for you in case I find a lead that could be of use.
Nick
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Any way you could blow up the French text or make it a little sharper ?
The left hand margin appears to have cut off some words, or half of them. Perhaps that's due to the original ? It's a little fuzzy this end, although I can make out most of it ok.
Hi Nick
Unfortunately, my copy is not much better. I can't do anything about the left hand margin, however, I think(?) I have increased the size 10%, and sharpened it a little (using Picasa Program).
If this doesn't help you, don't worry too much about it. I appreciated your help with the "small pox" translation, and that was my main interest. The rest of the document appears mainly to relate to the Insurance Policy conditions, rather than to my ancestor himself.
"Merci"
Les
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Good evening Marie,
I'm not bad at a lot of things, but I can't guarantee Guadeloupe ! However, it could be an interesting challenge.
I'll keep a weather eye open for you in case I find a lead that could be of use.
Nick
Merci bien, Nick!
A cousin has got some information on them from an organisation called Genealogical Society of the Caribbean, based in France. We seem to think they may have come from Marseille (not certain why we think that!) Anyway, if you find anything that looks useful, I'd be very grateful if you'd let me know!
MarieC
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Good morning Les,
Thanks for the "blown-up" version, which was slightly easier to read.
The translation you have does omit a detail - to do with the policy conditions I grant you, and not your ancestor - as follows:
.....the Company undertakes, in accordance with the general conditions above, and those that follow, to pay to the said Mr. Belin, if his death intervenes from this (day - I think there is a word missing in the LH margin) until the 26th of April 1830 inclusive, the sum of Ten Thousand Francs.....
Glad to have been of some help. Any time.
Nick
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Once again, thanks very much Nick - much appreciated. My French is limited to "Paris", "cafe", "Citroen", and not forgetting "MERCI"!
Les
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Your very welcome , Les !
Nick
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And for Marie:
Il n'y a pas de quoi ! Si je peux aider, ce serait avec plaisir !
Nick
Nick,
Vous êtes très gentil!
(Now if you also knew about tracing people who lived in Guadeloupe back to pre-Revolutionary France, that would be even better!!!)
MarieC
Hi,
What's the name of your ancestor from Guadeloupe ?
David
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Goodness! Almost 10 years later, and this thread has risen from the dead!! ;D
David, in the intervening years my cousin and I have found out heaps about our French ancestors. They were prosperous middle class, originally from Montpellier, then around Marseille, then one of them went to Guadeloupe for whatever reason. His name was Jacques Joseph Serane. His father had married into the de Flotte family - probably an ennobled family, also middle class/merchants. He was there in the post-revolutionary period, and was clearly a supporter of the new order. He died young - I imagine, of a tropical fever.
MarieC
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Goodness! Almost 10 years later, and this thread has risen from the dead!! ;D
............................and that's why I've kept the same email address for 20 years. One never knows when someone will reply to an old RootsChat post, or, find your email address on a website you visited many many years ago ;)
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Hi
Thank you for your reply.
Last month I answered a question asked in 1999, still unanswered. So, one never knows !
I am familiar with the names you mentioned because of an article of 2006 and a question of your relative J. W. in 2008
Page 5022 Généalogie et Histoire de la Caraïbe numéro 197 ...
www.ghcaraibe.org/bul/ghc197/p5022.rtf
Joseph Jacques Marie SERÂNE (1) apparaît dans l'histoire de la ... de cette année, c'est lui qui écrit, en tant que député des commissaires de Marie Galante, ...
My answer in 2008 was the following :
"Bonjour,
Joseph SERANE a épousé Anne Julie de FLOTTE le 6 février 1766 à Château
Gombert (Marseille).
Elle est fille mineure de noble Jacques de FLOTTE et feue Marie Victoire
LONGIS, résidants dans cette paroisse depuis 18 mois.
Joseph SERANE, dont le père - Pierre SERANE - est déjà décédé, est majeur et
négociant de la ville de Marseille (semble-t-il de la paroisse Saint-Ferréol). Sa
mère Marie Magdeleine SIAUD a donné son consentement par acte du 4 février
chez Me AUBIN.
Le mariage se déroule dans la chapelle privée du sieur de FLOTTE avec
l'autorisation de l'évêque.
Nombreuses signatures dont des membres de la famille FLOTTE.
Pour l'ascendance de FLOTTE qui remonterait au 11e siècle, voir
http://gw5.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=verseau&lang=fr;p=jacques;n=de+flotte;oc=2
Pierre SERANE s'est marié le 27 décembre 1735 à Marseille, paroisse
Notre-Dame-des-Accoules, avec Marie Magdeleine SIAUD, fille de Barthélemy SIAUD
et Magdeleine LESPIAU (mariés en 1711).
Il est natif de Montpellier, fils de feus Pierre SERANE et Françoise MONJOL.
Il est veuf de Catherine LAVAIGNE, épousée à Marseille en 1718."
and also in 2010
"Bonjour,
Pour consulter l'acte de mariage de Joseph SERANE et Marie Anne Julie DE FLOTTE, il suffit de se connecter sur :
http://www.archives13.fr/archives13/CG13/pid/102
puis de cliquer sur >> Lien vers le site externe 'Accéder aux registres paroissiaux et état civil'
Choisir Marseille, registres état-civil, paroisse Château-Gombert, cocher mariage, et indiquer pour l'année 1766.
C'est la 3ème vue sur les 11 du registre.
Leur fille Marie Marguerite Julie SERANE se marie le 21 février 1792 à Aix-en-Provence avec Etienne Jacques CAILLET, marchand quincailler.
C'est paroisse Saint-Sauveur. Vue 12 sur 108.
Elle se remarie, même ville, le 20 avril 1800 (30 germinal an VIII), avec Marie Pierre FLORENS, propriétaire. Il est dit qu'elle est née à Marseille le 16 avril 1768 et habite Aix depuis 5 ans. Vue 32 sur 53.
Cordialement"
On Geneanet, I just have found an entry for Guillaume SERANE, a brother of Pierre SERANE. He went to Turkey !
Relevés partenaires
Patronyme : SERANE
Prénoms : Guillaume
Profession : Négociant
Epoque : 24/01/1726
Lieu : Constantinople
Prénom père : Pierre
Nom mère : MONYOL
Prénoms mère : Françoise
Type de donnée : Autorisé à résider au Levant
Relevé effectué par : Généalogie et Origine des Populations Migrantes
Dépouillement effectué d'après les registres paroissiaux et d'état-civil.
Another brother ?
http://gw.geneanet.org/seranne?lang=fr&p=pierre&n=seranne&oc=1
The records of Montpellier are online. It's a rather big city (several parishes). Pierre SERANE/SERANNE was born circa 1694.
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Bonsoir David, et merci!
Yes, my cousin got all this information, and it's interesting that you are the person who answered her queries! It's a small world...
It's great to have the information on RootsChat, though, in case another descendant should come along.
We hadn't found the brother who went to Turkey, though - fascinating! And yes, it does appear that there was another brother, Jean. I will let my cousin know - she'll be very interested.
Here in Australia, the information the family had about the Seranes (and de Flottes) had become totally mangled over time, so that there was very little accuracy in it. I guess it's partly the language difference. Both my cousin and I speak and read French (she much more fluently than I) and we are trying to set the record straight with as many family members as possible. A little more research to do yet and then we can hopefully write it all up. Death details for Joseph Serane senior are eluding us, and we are still searching for burial details for his grand-daughter Adele, who is our 3xggrandmother, though my cousin thinks she may be getting closer on this one.
Once again, David, many thanks - and do let me know if you happen on anything else regarding the Serane family!
MarieC