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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Jean M on Sunday 16 December 07 08:29 GMT (UK)
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Hello searchers,
I have the medal index card for Ernest M (Marshall) BARR
Royal Field Artillery, Gunner, Regiment No 77797.
The card has RFA 212B and I would appreciate any
clues on what Ernest BARR and his unit "did in The Great War".
His descendants thought he had died while serving
but this does not show up on the card.
many thanks for your interest
Jean M
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Hi
Ive checked soldiers died database and Commonwealth War Graves and can find no entries of him being killed...This is by no means always correct he may have died after service or been discharged and died of non war related illness or injury thus not entitled to CWGC status.
The Medal Index Card is sometimes annotated "Killed" or Died but not always.
If you could scan the card onto the forum it would help however i suspect he was with 212 Brigade RFA
Did he have any Bolton Connections?
Ady
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Hi Ady,
much appreciate your help. No Lancashire connections as far
as I know. Greenwich is thought to be his place of birth and close
enough to Woolwich for a volunteer!!
The medal card has Victory and British medals shown
- would that mean he had survived service into 1918/19??
attached view in jpeg has failed, I will try to forward in next
regards
Jean M
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Hi Ady.
Pleased to forward the scanned card
for Ernest M BARR - small clues
RFA212B - could that be the same
as CCX11 Territorial Force perhaps???
regards
Jean M
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Hi
Thats what i originally thought 212 RFA Bde Arty ill post a link later which gives its make up thats why i asked if he had Bolton connections as it was a Territorial Battery.
Looking at the card he did not serve overseas until at least 1916 as there is no 15 Star award unless he has another MIC which is not unheard of.
The annotation next to his medals is the actual Roll book at kew which should give his battery and service dates(overseas) and page number.
Ady
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Hi again,
very grateful for the explanation. I suppose fresh recruits could have been
sent all over the country for basic training.
Wondered if he had served earlier and how long it would take to train a field gunner.
questions, always more questions!
A visit to Kew as soon as convenient would be worthwhile. With luck The Roll Book
may prove a date of birth as well as his service details if the record has survived at all.
regards and many thanks
Jean M
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Hi Jean
The Medal Roll i doubt will give date of birth :(
it will give date he went overseas from and to plus his unit and service number
No records online at ancestry at moment.
http://www.1914-1918.net/rfa_units.htm#200-300
Heres the RFA link.
Even if he was a casualty he would be awarded Campaign Medals
A trip to Kew would hopefully tie up his unit then you have a starting point
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thank you for the link. I shall let you know what I find.
Jean M
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hi all
don't know if this is known already but on the 1891 census there's
an ernest m barr(age 9) adopted son of george and emma barr
living greenwich. he was born sidcup kent
ev
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Following on from ev and the conscientious 1891 enumerator......
He's still in Greenwich with George and Emma in 1901, age 19, Clerk, living at 16 Straight's Mouth (St Pauls parish). RG13/536 Folio 117 Page 8
Possible birth for him on FreeBMD is Dec Q 1881 Bromley 2a 425
Ernest Whiting MARSHALL
Phil
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hi ev and forrester,
great sleuths - and many thanks for the comments.
I had also found census entries 1891 and 1901
plus the birth registration in Bromley.
It does look promising and a copy of the
GRO birth registraton may confirm name of father,
possibly not!! Would papers be hard to find to prove
adoption by the BARR family? Where next?
good wishes
Jean M
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Hi again
a birth of Ernest Whiting MARSHALL in 1881/2
would make him over 30 yrs by WW1.
Would that have been usual for a new recruit?
Jean M
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Jean
Military Service Act(Conscription) 1916 had men from 18-41 called up depending on jobs and marital status single lads first then onto married...as the casualties rose i think the age was up to 50!
So quite likely he was a post 16 conscript.
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Hello Ady,
thanks and useful too ... another clue to recruitment
after 1916 as discussed earlier.
The electoral roll for BARR family at Greenwich may
add something more on the family but I suspect Ernest would
not qualify to vote pre WWar1. Later he may show up on
Absentee Voter list if that is available ...worth a look?
Jean
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Yes 1918 AVL would provide good info if still available it should state his unit on it.
:)
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Hello Jean,
It looks like the adoption may be difficult to trace, as apparently legal adoption did not exist before 1927.
http://www.familyrecords.gov.uk/topics/adoption.htm
It is possible that it may have been within the family, so you may be able to make an educated guess when you know a bit more.
Phil
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Hello Phil
Many thanks for the link and info on adoptions.
Ernest Whiting MARSHALL looks significant and therefore
a copy of his GRO birth certificate would handy.
Will have another search for a family in local census too.
all the recently received suggestions are most welcome
Jean M
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Jean,
If he is the one registered Dec 1881, then the 1881 census is going to be pretty close to his conception. I had a look through Greenwich, Eltham, Chislehurst and Bromley for Whiting/Marshall connections and could only find one extremely speculative possibility, with no apparent connection to the Barrs. I'm not even going to embarrass myself by posting it. I'll wait until you get the birth certificate.
Phil
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Hi Phil,
despite the so far unknown connection between BARR and Ernest Whiting MARSHALL
I have ordered the GRO birth certificate this afternoon. Doubt if the office will
clear that to post before Christmas unless Santa's delivery is turbo charged!
Very grateful that you had trawled through Eltham, Greenwich etc entries.
Something may fall into place. My gt grandfather had been placed with
his aunt as a youngster. Didn't know the history that far back and I had to
find her married name and then it became clear why they had taken him into
their household. No adoption arranged.
Jean
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Hi Phil
....delighted to receive GRO birth certificate yesterday,
together with death cert of BARR snr, the master tailor.
- pronto service and good of the office to clear the
decks before the holiday.
you may find this interesting - when you have time,
and please let me know of your find but hesitated to
forward - a matter of elimination perhaps.
Reg District Bromley, Kent Sub District: Chislehurst, Kent
Erith Villa, Birkbeck, Sidcup, Kent
13th November 1881
Ernest Whiting MARSHALL
registered 22 December 1881
father John Henry MARSHALL, commercial traveller
mother Marianne MARSHALL formerly EDWARDS
That family does appear to be straightforward enough, but meantime another look in the census.
Jean
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Hello Jean,
You should know that there is no such thing as a straightforward family.
After finally finding that Sidcup comes under Foots Cray, I couldn't get any further in working out where Ernest came from- and I did try.
I can't find Erith Villa mentioned by name on the 1881 or 1891 and due to the amount of development and different enumerator's routes, it's difficult to pinpoint exactly.
In 1881 there is a Charles Marshall and his wife, Lydia, living in about the right place. I've tracked them back to 1851, with the exception of 1861, and up to 1891. I can only find one child, Jane, born back in 1846, in 1851 and a grand-daughter, Frances Stone, born 1875, in 1881.
I can't find any trace so far of John Henry and Marianne, including a marriage.
Have you got any further?
Happy Christmas,
Phil
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Hello Phil,
I have been browsing too particularly in RG12 633 Footscray but
like did not pinpoint Erith Villa. However in local studies for Bexley
I did find a ref. to Birkbeck and location of the Cottage hospital
was described
.
Perhaps Villa was a 'nursing home/maternity unit'. I has hopeful
that Footscray/ Sidcup neighbours might prove to have been
significant. Blank with that so far.
The marriage cert of for George B BARR = Emmas PALMER
25th December 1872 (that's auspicious) shows the marriage
took place at St Alphege Parish Church Greenwich.
The Witnesses Abraham LORD and Marian Emma LORD.
In Census 1871 RG10775 Schedule 102 I found
Marian E. EDWARDS age 9yrs St Germans
Place, Kidbrook Lodge daughter of Edward EDWARDS, tea
dealer. Marian E /Marianne....approx 19yrs by 1881.
I am clutching at straws, I shall try to put these 'ideas'
into a chart.....better stop.
Good wishes Happy Christmas
Jean
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Hello Jean,
Just to let you know that I didn't manage to get any further with the hunt for Ernest's parents.
I found a John (Edward) Marshall, commercial traveller, living very close to the Barrs, but he was married with 3 children and no visible connection to Charles Marshall in Foots Cray.
(1881 census: RG11 0721/32 page 23)
Mary Ann Edwards in Woolwich, whose father was a Scottish tailor, looked promising, but turned out in 1871 and on birth record to be Mary Caroline.
(1881 census: RG11 0747/47 page 19)
Have you had any luck yourself?
Phil
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Hi Phil
this search has become a 'bee in the bonnet'. Much appreciate
your latest ideas. It is very odd that the MARSHALL's do not appear
in marriage and census records. I have checked for early sudden
deaths without any useful clues. I wonder if they had left for
US, Canada or Australia and arranged for the son to be fostered
then adopted.
Today I have located Greenwich Absent Voters list kepot at the
Woolwich Heritage/local studies. That may reveal more on Ernest
if he had survived.
The witnesses at the marriage Abraham and Marian Emma LORD
may have been significant and working on that trail.
Pity the facts are hard to prove so far - but not giving up yet.
Jean
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Hi Phil
A glimmer of positive news! I can now say?Ernest M BARR as shown on the medal card is
one and the same man Ernest Marshall BARR
and his Absent Voters address 42 Straight's Mouth, Greenwich.??There were 10 other possible candidates in the Army records. ?
The service number 77797 is a match and describes him
Gr (gunner) D/58th Bde R.F.A.
?Earlier records don't exist at Woolwich but he was listed in the
Absent Voters from Spring 1918 to Autumn 1919 but by
1920 he was not in the record.?From this can it be believed that he was NOT killed in WW1?
The Absent Voters list included many annotated notes of
others on the pages, i.e. killed, discharged, POW, deserted, or transferred.
But nothing helpful for Ernest M Barr.
I also checked through the full voters' lists and his adopted parents,
George BARR and later Emma were found at home.
It' s a wee step forward - be pleased to have your comments
and specially on D/58th Bde - when you have time.
Jean
?
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D/58th Bde could be D Battery 58th Bde Royal Field Artillery.
Ady
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Hello Ady
Many thanks - with that detail it should be possible find
where and what that unit did.
Jean
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Well done Jean.
It looks like he didn't move far then from 1901 onwards.
Here's a quick link to 11th Division, which 58 Brigade were part of, if you haven't got there yet:
http://www.1914-1918.net/11div.htm
As he wasn't awarded the Star, he wouldn't have been in Gallipoli, but may have made Egypt and was presumably drafted into 58 Brigade after training.
It does look like he survived the war and possibly moved out of the area after being demobbed.
Phil
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Hello Phil
grateful for the link to history of 11th Div....will go and browse.
Can I presume that any hint of a Lancashire connection has now
fallen out of the picture?
and ....where did demob occur - not in Egypt I hope!!!
Jean
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Hello Jean,
Your luck may be changing :)
I finally found this entry after starting at 1918 ::)
Deaths Q3 (Sept) 1952 Deptford 5c 320
BARR Ernest M age 70
If you can't access it yourself, PM me.
He may have taken a trip down Creek Road and forgotten to tell anyone.
I imagine he would have been demobbed at a Dispersal Unit back in England, whether at his point of entry or possibly Woolwich, I don't know.
Am I right in thinking that he did not marry? I couldn't find anything on FreeBMD.
It looks like your next move is the Local History room at Lewisham Library. They have a fairly good selection of directories and electoral rolls there and I think they can access the rolls that aren't on site. My wife found out about the original owner of our house (lived here 1901 to 1953), when we moved up here. John Coulter, who runs it, was very helpful.
Phil
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Hello Phil
Your fortitude deserves a gong, what a breakthrough. You are way ahead of me as I had only managed to browse through to 1930 in the GRO deaths and planned to look further in the morning.
That entry does look specially significant being close to the home territory and the right age. The cert would provide valuable info, with luck. I wonder if Ernest was in hospital for a long spell in 1920's?
Woolwich would be a top spot to be demobbed.
It's a good idea to try Lewisham - the archivist and team are extremely knowledgeable and helpful.
Ernest had married and I have the birth records of his sons Bruce 1911 and Derek 1913.
Edith BARR, Ernest's widow had allegedly 'remarried' after WW1 to a Mr Ponsonby (first name not known).
Neither marriage certificate has not come to light so far. There is always another search to do. While at Woolwich I collected the details of local municipal burials - the indexes are kept on site.
Think I should write a 'penny dreadful' soap opera on this crew.
Many thanks again for your help.
Jean
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You've got a bit more to work with now Jean.
It would be interesting to know if he was around the area throughout the missing years. Also if anything comes to light on his parentage. Whiting, I am sure, is significant.
Good luck,
Phil
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Hello Phil
Certainly will let you know - delighted we managed to draw together
so many threads. TNA may offer further details if the documents
have survived.
Once again thank you for your help
Jean
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Hello Phil
Delighted to let you know the GRO death cert you had pin-pointed
is a hit.
21 July 1952 36 Colwick Street, Deptford
Ernest Marshall BARR 70 yrs
Clerk in the Ministry of Labour
and the informant was his sister Emily Kate (Barr) PETRIE
her address given as 42 Straightsmouth, Greenwich.
I am confident that he is our man but more than curious now
about his wife who was said to have remarried.
Jean
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Hello Jean,
That's a good result. He obviously stayed in touch with the Barr side of the family and went back to his old occupation after the war. 42 Straightsmouth seems to have stayed in the family a long time as well.
After much searching I found Coldwick St through the 1901 census. It would appear to have been on the north side of Lower Road, right on the border with Rotherhithe. The next street on the enumerator's route was Croft Street, so it must be under the Cannon Wharf Business Centre.
Next step, I suppose, is to track down the mysterious Edith. What do you know about her and her sons? Did they stay in the Greenwich area?
Phil
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Hello Phil,
This saga has kept us on our toes and with the many little snapshots
we have begun to build up an amazing picture.
A 70 year old working away in the Ministry of Labour is
intriguing too - minimum pension if any, I suppose.
I have the GRO Birth for Bruce Marshall BARR 13th October 1911
mother Edith Florence BARR (formerly CLACK)
Ernest Marshall BARR, father, and his occupation is given as
Steel Manufacturer's Draughtsman.
The family address 175 Brixton Road useful new clues.
I shall try to pin down Edith next.
I had also checked on the Deptford + Rotherhithe location
- much rebuilding in that area. I have a copy of Charles James Booth's
Streets of London S.E. A well thumbed book that describes the
districts in great detail.
The electoral roll at each address may give up more if they are available.
Many thanks for digging away on this - it helps a lot.
Jean
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Jean,
Just a quick one.
An Edith Florence Clack married in Sept 1909 Lewisham 1d 2269. Unfortunately, the two males on the page are William Henry Dadson and George William Shepherd. (FreeBMD).
I've checked the GRO for that quarter for both Barr and Marshall, but nothing there.
Looks like Bruce's marriage may be March 1933 Paddington 1a 81
Bruce M Barr
Nellie E Norbury
I can't see one for Derek before the end of 1939 and can't see a point for pursuing the son's further.
Back to Edith then........
Phil
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Hello Phil
I do have the marriage date
Derek Ernest Dougal BARR = Jeannie (Christen(s)) LYON(S)
10 Dec 1942 at Hendon registry office
This marriage shows you my starting point with a search for
Jeannie LYON(S) b. St Machar, Aberdeen 1906
There are a number of unresolved issues
with Jeannie's line too and I should have been aware this was likely
to become a challenge!
Edith Florence CLACK - she is next.
Jean
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Hi Phil,
"Back to Edith then........"
I thought the BARR trail had gone cold. So I had to let you know that some
photographs had come to light which have given the names of Edith CLACK's
siblings.
With that info I tried again in census 1891 and 1901 and the surname had been scrambled and then Indexed as BLOCK.
There was a note in the record to indicate the alternative spelling but that's only
a help if the entry is located in the first place!!
This may lead to the elusive marriage pre 1911 and then some better proof
of Ernest Marshall BARR's father - what a ramble?
good wishes
Jean
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Hello Jean,
I'm pleased to hear about the photos.
Now for the apology.
That looks like the one I found the other week. I should have posted it for you. ::)
1891 at 44 Rolls Rd, Bermondsey and 1901 at 27 Oak Rd, Crayford, I assume, complete with discrepancy in ages.
I never got any further with the hunt for the marriage though. That one in Lewisham, Sept 1909 for Edith Florence Clack still keeps gnawing away at me.
Phil
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Hi Phil,
No need for an apology. Today, Oak Road has been clinched, Mary CLACK
would eventually marry Frederick APPLETON, shown in the census as a boarder
and working for the railways.
The Lewisham marriage entry is very appealing....I had wondered if Edith married
another but the GRO birth in 1911 confirms she was Mrs BARR formerly CLACK.
We must be good at crossword puzzles and where only the perfect perfect
fit will do.
Jean
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Hello Jean,
I paid a brief visit to Lewisham Library today.
Ernest was at 36 Colwick St from 1946 to 1951 according to the Electoral Registers. At the same address throughout there is a Lilian White listed. There is also a third occupant (Thomas Helmer 1947/48, Patrick Torode 1949/50/51). 1944 and 1945 do not have any entries for No.36. That could possibly be due to bomb damage, I suppose, because it certainly existed in 1901. There are no rolls on the shelves pre-1944, so couldn't go further back.
I didn't have time to check what parish registers they have there.
Phil
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Hello Phil,
Good to hear from you and I am so pleased that you had a worthwhile visit to Lewisham. Many thanks for the
searches and delighted Ernest did appear in the lists. At a guess Lilian WHITE must have been his long-term
partner. Several useful names in your message. I do know how quickly the time runs away in the archives.
The marriage of Edith CLACK = to Ernest BARR remains elusive.
I have received a copy of the GRO death certificate for Edith PONSONBY 5th January 1935 age 45 years
at Greenford, Middlesex. The age would match her date of birth.
She is described as wife of Harold Ashley Curzon Ponsonby. Informant Derek Ernest D. BARR, son.
Derek's son knew of Harold Ponsonby. I am hunting for that marriage but it also remains elusive so far.
What a family.
Jean
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Hello Jean,
A few more loose cogs for you...............
Harold Ashley Curzon Ponsonby:
Birth: March Qu. 1892 Chelsea 1a 371
Harold Ashley C Ponsonby
Marriage: March Qu. 1918 Kensington 1a 419
Harold A C ponsonby
Edith F Dadson
So presumably the Edith Clack marriage in Lewisham was to William Henry Dadson, of which I can only find one contender, birth registered March 1885; West Ashford 2a 829.
I can find one Medal Card for a William H Dadson (Royal Engineers and Machine Gun Corps)
I can follow him through 1891 and 1901, but can't find a death for him between 1909 and 1918 in either the full GRO index or CWGC.
I cannot find H A C Ponsonby on the 1901 so far. I've also checked the Medal Index Cards and WO 364 (Pension Records), but no luck.
More questions than answers again.
Phil
Edit: Harold's MIC is here: http://www.rootschat.com/links/02sm/
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Jean,
I've found HACP's service record in the NA catalogue:
WO 339/45025
Ponsonby H A C Lieut
1915-1918; 1935
Also in the 1901 census : RG13/19 Folio 16 Page 23
I will PM you in the next day or so with some more info.
Phil
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Hello Phil,
You have been hard at the books and thank you for the details of trawls through
NA and CWGC. I have also been busy, you may find the following intriguing.
GRO Marriage??March quarter 1918 ?Kensington 1a 419?Harold A. C. PONSONBY = Edith F. DADSON??Marriage?September quarter 1941?Penzance 5c 667?Harold A.C. PONSONBY - Ruth Margaret MILLER
(from www.thePeerage.com)??Death?September quarter 1950 age 58 years?Lambeth 5c 936?Harold A.C. PONSONBY
From what I deduce this is life in the fast lane. There is a new
photo I can forward. I shall order the certificates which should
add to the picture.
Look forward to further discussion on the developments in the a.m.
good wishes
Jean
??
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I know this thread is donkey's years old, but thought I would add an update:
It appears that in 1932 Harold Ponsonby filed to have the marriage to Edith nullified on the grounds that it was void due to her still being legally married to William Dadson. However, neither Ponsonby, nor his legal representative turned up to the hearing and the case was struck out.
Phil
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Good Morning Phil,
Do trust you are well. It is a while since you had kindly helped with the
research for PONSONBY = BARR and the update is much appreciated.
Between us we had accumulated a huge file about this character.
With your permission I can forward the news to Christopher. I know he
will be very pleased.
Kind regards
Jean
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Hello Jean,
I was hoping that you would pick up on my post. Do you realise that it is eight years since we last put our heads together on the subject of HAC Ponsonby?
If you have changed your email address since we last spoke, then please PM me with your current one, so that I can send you the paperwork. I would also like your opinion on my understanding of it, to confirm that I am correct. Certainly share it with Christopher.
Hope to hear from you soon,
Phil
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Hello Phil
More than happy to be engrossed in the WW1 records.
The email has not changed.
Recently I had attended a Family History conference in NSW
Keen researchers there and s more than worthwhile
add-on to a stunning and amazing country and kind folks too.
Jean
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Jean My great grandfather, John A Platt, served with Royal Field Artillery 212 Battery, his service record says that they arrived in France on December 20th 1914. I found another online note saying that by december 25th they were at the front line and took part in the Christmas day truce. My grandfather died when I was four, but I remember him well and had lots of photos with him as a very old fella. I asked my mum a few times, what did granddad do in the war, always the same reply "Nothing, he never mention it" Yet it was so ingrained in him that 50 years later he still slept as if on guard duty. Im new here, so this is why Im just replying, years after your first post.
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Morning John,
Many thanks for your message. My research is ongoing and the Forum
extremely lively and responsive. So many of the records have been digitised now to make access very easy.
We can exchange details and look forward to hearing from you
Jean M
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I have just come across this thread whilst researching my great grandfather Ernest Marshall Barr. I started building my family tree a couple years ago on Ancestry.com and have also taken the Ancestry DNA test in an effort to find any living DNA relatives of E.M. Barr. Unfortunately i haven't been able to find any links via DNA to E.M.Barr or the family that gave him up for adoption in the 1880s, although i do have a multitude of DNA matches with Edith F. Clack my great grandmother. I have quite a lot of info on E.M. Barr, E.F. Clack, W.H. Dadson, H.A.C. Ponsonby. I.I. Austin and R.M. Miller on my tree but i expect you will have found everything that i found. Any suggestions on what i can try next to further my research in Ernest Marshall Barr?
Many Thanks
Martin Barr