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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: AngelaR on Monday 03 January 05 11:50 GMT (UK)
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I've been hunting down my Virgin relatives from Devon for some time and have just found my great-grandfather's sister Ann Virgin (does that make her a great great aunt?) in St Raphael's House, Torquay on the 1871 census.
Having done the usual Google search, all I can find is that it was a convalescent home run by the Sisters of Mercy. The boarders appear to be of mixed social status and not all young so I assume it's not the sort of place where girls were sent to have illegitimate babies. Does anyone know anything about it and whether there are any records anywhere?
Thanks
Angela
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Maybe it was a place for pregnant widows,abandoned pregnant woman as well as young single woman.There are many reasons why woman end up pregnant and alone!And widow hood or your husband running off can happen at any age and to any social class.
Try contacting the Devon Records Office for more information on St Raphaels House, Torquay.Use the link below;
http://www.devon.gov.uk/record_office
or this one
http://www.devon.gov.uk/library/locstudy/torquay.html
Hope this helps you
Debbi
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Angela, did you find out any more about St Raphael's?
I have an ancestor who was born in the Henley-on-Thames workhouse, and I found someone with the right name and age and a few other details, who married from St Raphael's.
I'm thinking that if it was also a form of workhouse, the chances of this being the right person are slightly improved.
Thanks for any help
Roger
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NO! NO! NO! St Raphaels and St Lukes were convalescent homes- one male and one female, no stigma attached at all.
My grandparents met whilst working there in just after WW1- my grandmother was at St Raphaels and my grandfather at St Lukes. My Godmother was the housekeeper at St Raphaels. My late mother used to tell the story of going there for afternoon tea on a Sunday - in the servants hall, Very much seated in order of seniority within the household with the Head sister in charge on a Sunday. Tea to drink and always seed cake ;)
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Thanks very much for your reply.
My ancestor was only 31 when she married from St Raphael's in 1882. Seems a bit young for a convalescent, but I guess she could have been working there, or, as Debbi suggested, she may have been preggers.
Does anyone know about St Raphael's history? Any chance of records existing for 1882?
Cheers, Roger :)
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Hi Roger, Debbie and Terryleaman
Thanks very much for your posts. I'm so sorry I haven't responded earlier, Debbie - I must have missed the notification that you'd posted :'(
My relative might even have coincided with your lady, Roger, since mine was there in the 1881 census. Was yours anywhere in the area then?
It's quite difficult to tell from the census image whether my Ann was a patient or was working there, although the description 'boarder' sort of implies she was one of the patients. I have made enquiries about patient records with the Devon Record office, as suggested by Debbie but have not heard back as yet. I'll let you know if I do.
As regards social status, my Ann was from the one (and only) section of my ancestors who were not living on the fringes of the workhouse, so I would imagine that there was money to support a convalescent home. She certainly died 10 years later at the age of 38, so that rather supports a theory of poor health.
Thanks again for your interest, everyone :)
Angela
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One of the greatest reasons for many of the convalescent/rest homes was for the suffers of TB which was rife in England at that time. There were homes set up that dealt with only those patients, but I'm sure that St Lukes and St Raphaels would also have taken these people as well. It was thought at that time that fresh sea air was a benefit to sufferers of TB and many people came from all over England. the common name at that time was Phthisis.
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I think you should buy the death certificate and see what the cause of death was.This could then confirm or not the theory put forward by Terry.
Debbi
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Hi Terry and Debbi
I think you're right ;D I shall get the certificate....
Thanks very much for your help
Angela
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Just to let people know -
I had a reply from the Devon Record Office. The (very helpful) archivist said that the convalescent home was run by the sisters of the Community of St John (the) Baptist, Clewer (an Anglican order), not the Sisters of Mercy ( a Catholic order corrected - there are both Anglican and Catholic orders of that name!) as I had thought. The confusion is probably because the main establishment at Clewer was a 'House of Mercy' for fallen women.
The records of the order are now held at Berkshire Record Office, but there are only accounts and annual reports for St Raphaels - no admission/patient records :'(
The archivist also pointed me to an article in the Illustrated London News for January 18th 1902, in which St Raphaels was referred to as a 'Consumption Sanitorium' so it obviously took TB patients. The index to the article is on the website http://www.iln.org.uk/iln_years/year/1902.htm I wonder if anyone has access to a copy of that edition of the ILN ???
Angela
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Angela, my Caroline Jones was in St Raphael's in 1881 with your Ann Virgin. She's shown with relationship to head = "Servt" and occupation = "Servant". So it seems she worked there. I noticed that most of the inmates in 1881 were aged 17 to 30-odd, so there may be a hint of unmarried mum involved, as you suggested earlier.
Cheers, Roger
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I have checked out St Raphaels on the Times Digital archive by searching on 'Raphael & Torquay' and on 'Consumption Torquay'. A number of obituaries come up right through to the last 1940s. An obituary in 1890 says 'at St Raphaels Home Torquay, SISTER ANNETTE, community of St John the Baptist, Clewer, youngest daughter of the late Patrick James D'Arcy Esq'. Another obit in 1876 mentions the home again - death of a Mariella Allen daughter of the late Rev JT Allen of Stradbroke Suffolk. ...... So the order mentioned by another poster seems to agree and it certainly looks like a hospital of some kind. The home is also mentioned several times as beneficiary of several bequests from wills. In 1859 a Dr Radclyffe Hall of the consumption hospital in Torquay recommends a castor oil remedy. Hope this just goes to confirm what you have found out already.
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Does anyone know where St Raphaels may have been and if it still there ?
Does anyone know where it would be on the map below ?
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Here it is a little bigger - map is dated about 1907 - a number of hospitals are mentioned.
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Eeks ! I've just found it ! Just above Meadfoot Beach ! It is marked on the map ! :) You probably all knew it was there anyway ! :D
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Thank you cheshiremog. Every little helps!
Cheers, Roger
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I now live in Nottinghamshire but grew up in Torquay so am very interested in its history. I wonder if anyone knows if St Raphaels is still there ?
There is a marvellous family history/refrence library at Torquay library and also Torquay Museum hold records too. I wonder if they could provide more information. It looks like St Raphaels was in the Lincombes area of Torquay - lots of Victorian mansions there as well as in the Warberries. I remember several big mansions being demolished in the 60s and as children we used to go up and play in the grounds. The other building called Kilmore was knocked down and my father worked on the new flats they built in its place - also called Kilmore. They are quite noticeable from the coast as they have sort of oriental looking decorative tops.
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For all who may still be interested - a postcard recently acquired on the Hall within St Raphaels - I am guessing maybe taken 1920s 1930s - perhaps Terry Leaman would know if his ancestors worked there ?
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Terry
Can you tell us?
Is this building still there ?
Or long gone?
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Long gone I'm afraid, modern(ish) housing on the site of both St Raphaels & St Lukes. It is difficult to date any pictures because I don't think, from what I've been told, that many alterations took place until the buildings were taken over and used as a naughty boys boarding school.
If I can remember where I put it I have an exterior photo which I got a while back.
Terry
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Thanks Terry
Would love to see it if you lay your hands on it
Always interested in all things Torquinian (did I spell that right ?)
Mog
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Hi Terry and Mog
I understood that the school was called Pitt House school and closed in 1982. There's a video (if you can stand the sentimental music) which shows lots of clips of the school in various stages of demolition, including the hall as shown in the marvellous postcard you found, Mog. The URL is -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8539736339050039017
I enjoyed it a lot once I turned the sound off!
Angela
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Hi, found a postcard of the view from St Raphaels, and a postcard of the exterior of St Lukes(sorry not St Raphaels) that was next door and run by the same order of sisters.
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Dear Terry
Super photos
There were and still are so many fabulous villas and building down there
Hope AngelaR likes
best wishes
Mog
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hi to you my name is shaun i whent to a school in torquay it was called pitt house school before it was pitt house it was st Raphael.s i have got lots of old photos of the old place and a lot of of photo's of when it was a boys school if you would like to know any more you can get back to i live in stroud so i am not that far away from you or you can get me at my e-mail is
Moderator Comment: email address removed to prevent spam and other abuses. Please use the secure personal message system to share email addresses and other personal information. Thank You .
I've been hunting down my Virgin relatives from Devon for some time and have just found my great-grandfather's sister Ann Virgin (does that make her a great great aunt?) in St Raphael's House, Torquay on the 1871 census.
Having done the usual Google search, all I can find is that it was a convalescent home run by the Sisters of Mercy. The boarders appear to be of mixed social status and not all young so I assume it's not the sort of place where girls were sent to have illegitimate babies. Does anyone know anything about it and whether there are any records anywhere?
Thanks
Angela
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hi my name is Shaun
i would like to let you all know i have got a lot of old photo's of st Raphael's that was in torquay it was in hr lincome road when st Raphael closed in 1959 it was taken over by a Mr spedding and it was then called Pitt house school i was at the school it is all gone now there is some of the old will still there if any of you out there would like to know any thing that i have got you can e-mail me on
Moderator Comment: email address removed to prevent spam and other abuses. Please use the secure personal message system to share email addresses and other personal information. Thank You .
i live in stroud in gloucester would like to help you all many thank
shaun
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Hi Shaun
So lovely to hear from you - and welcome to Rootschat - keep posting!
I had a brilliant but maybe precocious childhood in Torquay and now 50 years later I feel much younger! If you know what I mean.
I spent entire Summers as a child in the 1960s rummaging around in the ruins of old villas - mostly in the Warberries (I do not know the Lincombes so well) and it is a feelin that always stayed with me. A love of beautiful houses (and ruins). I am now one of that 'a cursed breed' an estate agent - in Notts - but the houses are (I have to say) far more enchanting for me in Torquay. As a child I dreamt of living in a house with one of those gorgeous verandas and with a glass canopy - dream on!
So please tell us your story -
mog
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Hi Shaun
Forgot to say
You should not put your email address on this site
The moderator will remove it to protect you from spam
What you need to do is click on a person's user name which is far left in blue
eg 'cheshiremog'
When the new page opens
scroll down to
'send this rootchatter a personal message'
click
send your personal email that way
mog
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hi to you my name is shaun i went to a school in torquay it was called Pitt house school before it was Pitt house it was st Raphael.s i have got lots of old photos of the old place and a lot of of photo's of when it was a boys school if you would like to know any i live in stroud so i am not that far away from you or you can get me at my e-mail is
Moderator Comment: email address removed to prevent spam and other abuses. Please use the secure personal message system to share email addresses and other personal information. Thank You .
I've been hunting down my Virgin relatives from Devon for some time and have just found my great-grandfather's sister Ann Virgin (does that make her a great great aunt?) in St Raphael's House, Torquay on the 1871 census.
Having done the usual Google search, all I can find is that it was a convalescent home run by the Sisters of Mercy. The boarders appear to be of mixed social status and not all young so I assume it's not the sort of place where girls were sent to have illegitimate babies. Does anyone know anything about it and whether there are any records anywhere?
Thanks
Angela
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I attended Pitt House School 1963/64.
I asked one of the housemasters about the history of the school, he told me that it had been a hospital during world war 1. My reply was something along the lines of that we must be sleeping in the original hospital beds, as I remember that little quip cost me 200 lines.
My favourite parts of the school were the great staircase, and the chapel, having been raised anglo-catholic I felt at home in the chapel but could'nt understand such a place in a C of E School.
Now that I've read the various posts about St Raphael's, I understand.
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hi its nice to see you on here just to let you know i have got a pitt house school web site with alot of old photos on there if you go on the site have alook its is
http:www.pitthouseschoololdboys.co.uk
my name is shaun lodge
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Thanks Shaun for the info on PHS.
When I was looking at the picture of St Luke's and St Raphael's, the thought crossed my mind that the powers that be are allowed to perform conservation murder. St Raphael's was a beautiful building and should have been listed rather than destroyed.
Out here in Grande Prairie Alberta, the situation is somewhat different. When the local art museum collapsed, the locals were up in arms about it, (not literally) and want to sell the individual bricks at 10 to 15 dollars each so they could rebuild to an exact copy of the original building.
Fortunately this did not happen as it was a really ugly place and only 75 years old.
Sorry about the rant, but this is something I really believe in. 8)
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Unfortunately Torquay has lost some grand buildings. Without getting political, we may lose a lot more if our Mayor has his way.
Just been looking at the 1911 census and have found my grandmother, her sister and my godmother on there- either in St Lukes or St Raphaels (the address is missing- I'm waiting to hear if they can sort out which one) My gran & her sister were kitchen & scullery maids, my godmother was a housemaid, she later went on to become head housekeeper.
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To Terry Leaman and cheshiremog, thank you both for the lovely pictures.
I can only relate to one personally, and that is the picture of the great (or main staircase), it looked exactly the same when I was at school there in the sixties.
I love the term naughty boys boarding school, I think that the PC phrase would be educationally challenged boys boarding school. I know I was.
In the National Archives I found a small amount of information. St Raphael's (for women) established 1866; St Luke's (for men), 1883; St Barnabas (for phthisis patients), 1892. All closed 1959.
Having got into research mode now does anybody where St Barnabas was? and whether it is still standing.
The modern term for phthisis, is tuberculosis. 8)
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Unfortunately Torquay has lost some grand buildings. Without getting political, we may lose a lot more if our Mayor has his way.
Just been looking at the 1911 census and have found my grandmother, her sister and my godmother on there- either in St Lukes or St Raphaels (the address is missing- I'm waiting to hear if they can sort out which one) My gran & her sister were kitchen & scullery maids, my godmother was a housemaid, she later went on to become head housekeeper.
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Map below showing St Lukes, St Raphaels & St Barnabas.
Plus a photo os St Barnabas
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2 more pictures of St Barnabas
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Hi, A relative of mine was at Pitt House School in the late 1950's early 60's and no family member seems to know why he was sent there? I have tried to find out the history of the place and understand that social services or local authorities would have been involved? Would you be able to give me any information,I.E. what was Mark Sneddons involvement in the schools were they just a money maker for him or did he have a personal interest in the welfare of the children sent to them? There is some info in the national archives but because of the 30 year disclosure cannot access them just yet! Would be extremely grateful for any information.
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Hello Monovette
Sorry can not answer your specific question
But just wanted to say
WELCOME to Rootschat and please keep posting
The local library may be able to help
http://www.familia.org.uk/libraries.html
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I worked at a special school near London some years ago,we had mostly 'malajusted'and problem children often with behaviour problems.we sent at least one lad to Pitt House.
Barbara
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Thanks Barbara, that gives a little insight as to the sort of school it was,I gather that it was a private company running the three schools so am wondering why the authorities were placing the children from all over the country in them? will have to dig deeper? Kind Regards.
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hi, who is the lad in the phs uniform?my name is michael dunne, i come from ipswich, in suffolk. i was at phs from 1963- 1967 it was a school for malajusted boys, i think it was a dumping ground, for local authorities, the length and breadth, of Britain,to put lads, for what ever reason.
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A close friend of my mother was Matron at Pitt House I believe in the sixties by the name of Betty Errington. I was a child at the time but she scared the life out of me so goodness knows what she did to those boys. She lived in a lodge near the school and I often had to spend time there. Not pleasant memories.
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hi babbacombe girl, yes, i can remember mrs errington, she was in charge of the house mothers, i have, a vivid picture of her, in my mind, and her big detached house, overlooked, the playing field.its ironic, that my sister, whom i had not seen for 50 years, lives in teignmouth, so i often have a drive around, the old school, thanks for your interest
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As a young girl she was very harsh with me. I can remember being on the beach with her and making a fuss because I wanted a towel to undress with............also she made me eat Marmite sandwiches which I hate and still do. She also was quite cruel when my grandmother died telling me to stop crying. So if she was like that with a friend´s little girl I don´t know what she would have been like with the boys!
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i never had any dealings with her,but thinking back, she was quite stern looking, i dont think, those thick glasses, did a lot for her
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Hi,
Does anyone know anything about King Alfred Military instituion that was in Torquay in 1911 .
Dawn
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I've been most interested by the many replays to your message.
I came on here to search anything I could find on St.Raffles, Torquay. I was born at St. Raffles in 1967. My Father was a master at Pitt House School, at that time the House was referred to as the lodge.
My father had moved with my mother from Edinburgh to Torquay for the job and were allowed to live in St. Raffles while they bought a house. They were only able to use to rooms as it cost so much to heat. I was born in the master bedroom. I still live in Torquay. Mr father was Mr John Gordon for any ex boys that may read this. He was the P.E. master and English master for many years.
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Hi, my dad was the P.E. master and English master at Pit House for many years. Mr Sneddon was the owner and Head Master at the school. It was his passion, and he honestly wanted to help the boys. However his ideology may be flawed be modern standards.
The boys were mostly from inner cities, and had been or were at risk of becoming in trouble with the police or excluded from school. Some of the boys simply had nowhere else to go, and were at risk of harm.
I was born at the school, my mum repared the boys clothes. I have fond memories of the school and some of the boys.
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Hi Louise Adrian Hilton here ..Yes your Dad a great man was my maths teacher in T1 class 1977-1978 and as you say P.E instructor.Your Lodge you lived in still stands and was St Raphaels Lodge just up from Little St Raphaels and directly opposite Lyncombe Lodge the only surviving structures of the school now sadly as the rest of the doomed rubble of the once amazing buildings is buried under a leisure park complex in Paignton. Back with all concerned very soon to up load one amazing collection of the two buildings St Lukes and St Raphaels from 1800s to 1950 plus your love what your going to see.Phs Group
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Hi,
Does anyone know anything about King Alfred Military instituion that was in Torquay in 1911 .
Dawn
Dawn, check with the Torquay Library or the one at Newton Abbot your find info there trust me Adrian Hilton
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Hello, it’s been amazing reading all of the comments about the history of St Raphaels. We now live in St Raphael’s Lodge and would love to see any old photos that people have, or any stories or details about the house.
Many thanks for all your posts