RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: I forget on Monday 07 January 08 14:32 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone,
I have been researching my fh and my husbands for a few years now, but have avoided doing my mum's side, as I have been waiting to gain more experience before 'tackling' it. I am hoping to give it a go this year!!
My question is, is there any books or websites that give more info on the Romany gypsies and travelling showmen in the Lincolnshire/East Anglia area? Especially any that describe the HARRIS families?
When I first started I talked to a kind lady at the FH fair in London (the big one in May) on the Traveller's stand, and she said that Harris was a well known name in E Anglia. She gave me a title of a book that included Harris's, but I've lost the reference now.
My cousin has done some research, but exclusively locally to Boston/area, and said that she could trace the Sherratt's back, but was at a loss with the Harris's. Any hints and tips would be welcome!!!
My Grandfather was Walter Sherratt and was a showman,
My Grandmother was Sylvester Harris, and they lived in Boston, Lincs from WW2 time onwards (in a house). They ran a drapery business (I think). I don't know when they came to settle in a house, though there were still many relatives in caravans at this stage.
Many of my relatives are buried in the Cemetary in Boston, but on contacting the local FHS it seems there is no index available of the cemetry as yet.
Any ideas and pointers would be appreciated.
(I don't live in the area, btw)
Cindy
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The Harris book you refer to might be The Story of Harris's Fun Fairs: Eastern Counties, Midlands and Beyond by Ken Page. Does that sound like it? I have an address for the author/publisher. Or you could try googling for it.
What year was your Sylvester Harris born?
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Thanks for replying
It sounds very interesting, though not the publication I was after. I have found several references to it by Googling, thank you :) Iam interested in anything at all, including general books on travellers and the routes taken/fairs etc, in East Anglia. I thought some background reading might help in trying to locate sources to find them, if the BMD certs prove tricky.
The one I was after was probably only one of those small booklets that you get from FHS. I think I will need to contact the Traveller FHS (and have another good look, my research is in dire need of a big sort out anyway).
I will post if I find the title.
With regards to Sylvester Harris, she died in 1982 in her 80's, so I'm assuming she was born round 1900. I haven't really started researching properly yet, I admit, I only have my mother's birth certificate at the moment. I need to save up!!!
Cindyx
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I have a marriage certicate of a Sylvester Thorpe who married a John Harris in 1898 in King's Lynn. They might have gone on to have a daughter named Sylvester - I'll see what I can find out. (I'm interested in the Thorpes as a side-line!) Happy to send you full details from the cert and a newspaper report on the wedding if you think it's relevant.
Perhaps the book the Romany and Traveller FHS told you about was A Calendar of Fairs and Markets in the 19th Century by Pat Loveridge? This plots out, county by county, the locations of the type of places where Gypsies and Fairground folk tended to congregate and trade. All the details are on the Society's website.
Sharon
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Hi Sharon
After a big sort through, I've found the reference, and indeed you were right first time! It was the Harris's funfairs one. The Loveridge title also sounds of interest.
I notice there are some Harris's and Thorpes in caravans together on the 1901 cenus in Huntingdon. I presume you have that?
I think I need to get Sylvester and Walter's Marriage cert, then I'll post again and let you know if John and Sylvester looks likely as Sylvester's parents. This may take a while, due to low post Xmas funds!
Btw, my full name, Cynthia, is supposed to be apassed down gypsy one, my mother said that she knew other older Romanys (family?) called Cynthi (prounounced Cynth- eye). So if this name crops up, it could be another clue. (also Lemontina was a cousin or something)
Thanks again. :)
Cindy
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I've often seen the name Sinfi or Sinfie as a Gypsy name in different families.
On the newspaper report about Sylvester and John Harris' marriage - I've discovered it's already on this list: check the topic THORPE...travellers and hawkers.
Sharon
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Hi Sharon,
Thanks for that, very interesting, certainly gives a vivid picture, even if it turns out not to be the branch of the Harris family I am interested in.
I did wonder how Sinfi / Sinfie was spelt/written down.
Cindy
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Hi Sharon,
Just to let you know that I have now got my grandparents marriage cert, and indeed, Sylvester's father is John HARRIS. I haven't found a convincing reference to her birth, but it would be in 1901. It is possible (but no-where near certain!) that the Sylvester and John I referred to in the 1901 census are her parents ( with THORPEs amongst others in neighbouring caravans) and that they could be the right age to be the ones mentioned in the vivid description of the marriage in the paper.
however, as exciting as that would be, I am aware that they may not be my great grandparents, as I believe there were many marriages between gypsy families and the same names were repeated many times.
But it certainly has given me inspiration to continue, I will be asking my dad if he remembers my great grandmother's name (she was still alive when I was a baby) thank you. :)
Cindy
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Hi Cindy
Good to hear it all seems to be fitting together - but obviously you can't take anything for granted yet.
Where did your Sylvester's marriage take place? And what was her residence given as?
I believe I have some notes filed somewhere about this branch of this particular branch of the Harrises, given to me by Ken Page, the author of the Harris book. I'll see if I can hunt them out. From memory, they were also associated with a family called Thompson who were famous for rock-making and had a stall at Wisbech market (Cambridgeshire) for many years as well as attending fairs. There's also a connection with a place called Brownhills near Birmingham.
Does any of this fit with your family?
Sharon
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Hi Cindy
There's a Sylvester Harris in the Births Index in December quarter 1904 in St Ives registration district, Huntingdonshire. That's not far from where John Harris and Sylvester Thorpe were in the 1901 census.
Have you discarded this one?
Sharon
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Hi Sharon,
Yes please, any info would be helpful. No connection I know of with Brownhills (this is in the 'Black Country near Birmingham), but Wisbech is a place that rings a bell.
They were in/around Boston, Lincs for many years, and got married in Spalding Registry office, with both giving addresses in Spalding. (5 High Street, in her case) Sylvester is '21 years' in 1922. Both her and Walter's father are down as 'General Dealers'. Walter's address was 'Commercial Road, Spalding'
I will need to check her death entry, but I think she was in her 80's when she died (1982). She could have been younger and just saying she was 21, so the 1904 birth entry is a possibility, but I will need to check the age at death first.
The Harris entry in 1904 is the only one that comes up on Free bmd, but I think I will need to check in more detail. (needs a trip to the library) Must admit I'm a bit at sea here, as I'm used to using place as a way to narrow down the correct family. ???
For me the places 'Wyberton, Wisbech, Spalding, Boston' were all places my mum talked of.
I will need to do some more digging and see if I can come up with more info on my Great Grandmother (mother to Sylvester), need to look at some of the pictures and see if there's a name, and also a death entry in the 1960's which might help. (I know she died between the mid 60s and early 70's).
Sorry I can't give you any thing else as yet....
Cindy
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Hi Sharon,
Have had a look at the death indexes, and it seems to be coming together, Grandmother S. Harris died late enough for her d.o.b to be on the indexes, HURRAH! and yup, its in the Sept of 1904, so strong possibility that the birth in St Ives, near Huntingdon, is her!!! Her mother is 'Sylve Harris' on the death index and is old enough to be Sylvester harris/ nee Thorpe.
Please, when you have time, pm me and we'll exchange e-mails, so that we can keep in touch. It may take me a while to get hold of the birth cert, etc. I do have photos of Sylvester Harris (nee Thorpe, possibly), but only once she was old.
Also, I would be interested in any info you can dig up on this line. I notice you said this was only a 'side line' for you, but anything you have will be of interest and in exchange I can send you a couple of pics that you may find of interest. Though nothing before the 1950's I'm afraid.
The only additional info I can think of at the moment is that my mum said that Gran was one of 12 children!!
also I have found possibles for the Sherratt line, in Wellingborough, which is also not that far away, but I'm less certain of these as yet (in regards to actually buying the certs)
Thanks again, you have really helped me get going on this side of my family
;D
Cindy
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Hi Sharon,
Thanks for that, very interesting, certainly gives a vivid picture, even if it turns out not to be the branch of the Harris family I am interested in.
I did wonder how Sinfi / Sinfie was spelt/written down.
Cindy
Hi I have this name in my family and its Spelt Sinfai You will find name used by Buckland Heron Boswell
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Hi Sharon and Cindy,
Re Sylvester Thorpe and John Harris.
They are linked with my husband's family.
John Harris's sister Euphemia 1887 married Hiram Wilson, brother of , ggrandmother Beatrice.
Eliza Thorpe 1849 married Mark Wilson, gggrandfather, father of Beatrice and Hiram.
I haven't worked out the connection with Eliza and Sylvester yet, but I am sure there is one.
Lool forward to hearing from you.
Regards
Lavina
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(also Lemontina was a cousin or something)
Hi. I have this name in my family. Lemontina/Lemintina/Lemontaine crops up in the Gardner and Smith families.
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Hi
I am descended from the Thorpe family, my grt grandfather was Edmund Thorpe bn 1838.
He was the brother of James Thorpe bn 1851 who was the grandfather of Sylvester Thorpe who married John Harris.
I only have 2 children in the 1901 census , Mark 1900 and John 1900.
I have John Harris as having 4 siblings Arthur , Reuben who married Alice Lamb, Euphemia who married Hiram Wilson and Rodney
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Hi
Hope I'm not butting in ... :-\ I have been looking around for your people.
I noticed in 1901... with Sylvester and John Harris , are James (50 ) and Sarah Thorpe. I think that James had married before ....
1881
Oldham , St Marys, Lancashire
Tommy Field
James Thorpe mar head hawker b cambs, kings Lyn?
Eliza wife mar 36 b Cambs, Kings Lyn?
James son 6 not attending school b Cambs Kings lyn?
Eliza dau 4 " b York, Halifax
SILVESTER dau 3 b York, Bradford ... she married John Harris
Edmund son 7m b York , Huddersfield
deb
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Hi again
i can only find one good possible birth for James and Eliza Thorpes' children;
Edmund Thorpe
sept q 1880
Huddersfield Yorkshire
vol 9a p 338
This birth cert would at least give you Eliza's maiden name .
deb :)
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Hi ...I hope I am not repeating info that others may have;
This is the 1871 census of james Thorpe b 1851, father of Sylvester who married John Harris.
1871
Crown Inn. St Paul, Cambridge
James Thorpe head 53 traveller b cambs
Eliza wife 53 b finchley, Middlesex
JAMES son 19 traveller b Cambs, Pampisford
Providence dau 17 b Milden Hall, Suffolk
Emanuel son 15 b Suffolk
Roads of May niece 11 b Shropshire ..... what a FABULOUS name ;D
Ambrose son 6
deb
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Hi
the earlest census record I can find is for 1861
the parents are James and Elizabeth (nee Buttress).
The children were...Edmund ( my grt grandfather) bn 1838.Ambrose bn 1841..Edengaile bn 1845..Eliza bn 1848..Joseph bn 1849..Oliver bn 1847..Jmaes bn 1855..Holland bn 1850..Mace bn 1858 and Rhoda Herde, recorded as niece.
Edendgail married Henry Coxall,
Eliza married Mark Wilson.
Holland married Edward Frankland.
James married Eliza , I have no surname.
Ambrose married Leviathan Draper.
Edmund married Ann Cook
The Harris connection is via the daughter of James and Eliza, Sylvester ,who married John Harris
John Harris's sister Euphemia Harris married Hiram Wilson, the son of Eliza Thorpe and Mark Wilson.
John Harris's parents were John Harris and Abigail Gray.
The James Thorpe, parent from 1861, was the son of a James Thorpe and Silveter Gray.
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A big thankyou to everyone who has posted recently,
I've been away, plus following up some leads on my husbands family.
Just to let you know I really do appreciate all the info, I will post again once I've had time to digest all this, :) my head is still spinning!! :o
Can anyone find the Sherratts? The only ones with a Walter approx 1yr old in 1901 do not look like travellers or showmen. They may be near Wellingborough as this is where the most likely birth index record is. (his dad is John Sherratt listed as a general dealer, just like John Harris on Sylvester Harris junior and Walter Sherratts s marriage cert)
Please don't worry about butting in, any info which is related to Harris/Thorpe or the Sherratts is welcome. I can record it all then see how things fit (or not) later on.
Cheers
Cindy ;D
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Dear All
If any one can let me know where Trinity Mayhew HARRIS and his family belongs to this would be fantastic. Seems like the surnames HARRIS, GRAY, LAMB, SIELEY, OSBORNE all connect with each other some how.
Love to hear from those who connect with all these.
Lesley
Descendants of Trinity Mayhew Harris
1. TRINITY MAYHEW1 HARRIS was born Bet. 1824 - 1832 in Linton, Cambridgeshire, and died Dec 1884 in Lyng, Norfolk. He married MARY ANN ?. She was born 1834 in Boston, Lincolnshire or Cambridgeshire.
TRINITY MAYHEW HARRIS:
The 1881 Census
Name: Trinity Harris
Age: 54
Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Wickling
Civil Parish: Burnham Westgate
Add: Front St
Occ: Gen Dealer
Registration district: Docking
Elizabeth Farrow 45
John Farrow 64
T. Harris 18
J. Harris 22
Trinity Harris 54 married
Syderstone Parish Register has Trinity as - Trinity May Hugh Harris a Brazier.
TRINITY MAYHEW HARRIS:
Burial: 02 Jan 1885, St Michael, Lyng
Census: 1861, Watton Road, Carbrooke
Living: 1868, Syderstone, Norfolk
Occ: Hawker
Children of TRINITY HARRIS and MARY ? are:
i. WILLIAM2 HARRIS, b. Abt. 1854, East Dereham.
2. ii. GEORGE HARRIS, b. Bet. 1854 - 1856, Ely, Cambridgeshire; d. Abt. Dec 1896, Mitford 4b 181.
3. iii. JOHN HARRIS, b. Abt. Mar 1859, Watton, Norfolk; d. Bef. 1916.
iv. CHARLES HARRIS, b. Abt. Feb 1861, Carbrooke, Norfolk.
Baptised: 15 Mar 1861, St Peter & St Paul, Carbrooke, Norfolk
v. ST SWITHIN TRINITY HARRIS, b. Abt. 1866, Swaffham/Fakenham.
Baptised: 06 Sep 1868, Syderstone parish Church
vi. PATIENCE HARRIS, b. Abt. 1867, Norwich, Norfolk.
Baptised: 06 Sep 1868, Syderstone Parish Church
vii. SARAH HARRIS, b. Abt. Jun 1868, Syderstone.
Baptised: 06 Sep 1868, Syderstone Parish Church
2. GEORGE2 HARRIS (TRINITY MAYHEW1) was born Bet. 1854 - 1856 in Ely, Cambridgeshire, and died Abt. Dec 1896 in Mitford 4b 181. He married HANNAH MELTON Abt. Jun 1880 in Mitford 4b 472, daughter of WILLIAM MELTON and SUSAN BELL. She was born 1863 in Whissonsett, and died Abt. Sep 1916 in Mitford 4b 262.
GEORGE HARRIS and HANNAH MELTON:
Marriage: Abt. Jun 1880, Mitford 4b 472
Children of GEORGE HARRIS and HANNAH MELTON are:
i. JOHN3 HARRIS, b. Abt. Mar 1881, Whissonsett; m. FLORA ?, Bef. 1901; b. Abt. 1880, Litcham, Norfolk.
JOHN HARRIS:
Census: 1901, Boarding at Edward Melton b Whissonsett in Rawmarsh, Yorkshire
Occ: 1901, General Labourer
Marriage: Bef. 1901
ii. MABEL HARRIS, b. Abt. Jun 1883, Mileham; d. Abt. Mar 1905, Mitford 4b 193.
iii. WILLIAM HARRIS, b. Abt. Jun 1891, Whissonsett.
iv. GEORGE HARRIS, b. Abt. Jun 1896, Whissonsett.
v. DORA HARRIS, b. Abt. Jun 1899, Whissonsett.
3. JOHN2 HARRIS (TRINITY MAYHEW1) was born Abt. Mar 1859 in Watton, Norfolk, and died Bef. 1916. He married PATIENCE OSBORN Aft. 1881, daughter of DANIEL OSBORN and SUSAN GRAY. She was born 01 Apr 1861 in Ber Street, St John Sepulchre, Norwich, and died 12 Nov 1908 in Grimstone, Norfolk.
JOHN HARRIS:
Births Mar 1859
HARRIS John Wayland 4b 286
Possible Deaths Sep 1914
Ray John 55 Blything 4a 1022
JOHN HARRIS:
Census: 1891, Near Aylsham Road in Van at Felmingham, Norfolk
Occ: Horse dealer
PATIENCE OSBORN:
Cause of Death: Confinement 28 October 1908/Septicaemia/Cardiac Failire
Medical Information: wife of John Osborne a licensed hawker widower of the deceased present at the death Grimstone 13.11.1908. certified by C S Woodward M.R.C.S.
JOHN HARRIS and PATIENCE OSBORN:
Marriage: Aft. 1881
Children of JOHN HARRIS and PATIENCE OSBORN are:
i. DANIEL3 LAMB, b. 13 May 1883, Bradfield Road, North Walsham, Erpingham 4b 64; d. Abt. Jul 1945, East Dereham.
DANIEL LAMB:
Jun 1883
Lamb Daniel Erpingham 4b 64
ii. DELIA (GOLIA) LAMB, b. 30 Nov 1884, Aylsham, Norfolk.
DELIA (GOLIA) LAMB:
On Golia's birth certificate Patience maiden name is Harris.
4. iii. SAUNDERS LAMB, b. 05 Dec 1886, Briston, Norfolk; d. 24 May 1946, Norfolk & Norwich Hospital.
iv. AMOS LAMB, b. Abt. Mar 1889, Erpingham 4b 73; d. Abt. Sep 1906, Erpingham 4b 40.
5. v. PATIENCE OSBORN RAY, b. 28 Mar 1891, Felmingham, Norfolk; d. Abt. Sep 1956, Wisbech.
6. vi. ELLEN RAY, b. Abt. Mar 1893, Ridlington, Smallburgh 4b 60; d. Abt. Sep 1973, Wisbech 4a 322.
vii. BENJAMIN RAY, b. 15 Sep 1899, Great Ellingham, Norfolk; d. 21 Jul 1965, East Dereham, Norfolk; m. MAY VICTORIA WEALES, Abt. Sep 1921, Mitford 4b 649; b. Abt. Jun 1897, East Dereham, Norfolk; d. Abt. Mar 1965, East Dereham.
MAY VICTORIA WEALES:
Burial: 03 Mar 1965, East Dereham Cemetery
BENJAMIN RAY and MAY WEALES:
Marriage: Abt. Sep 1921, Mitford 4b 649
viii. GENTA RAY, b. 15 Apr 1902, Lessingham, Norfolk.
ix. FANNY OSBORN, b. 28 Oct 1908, Grimstone, Norfolk; d. Nov 1908, Grimstone, Norfolk.
x. JANE OSBORN, b. 28 Oct 1908, Grimstone, Norfolk; d. Nov 1908, Grimstone, Norfolk.
4. SAUNDERS3 LAMB (JOHN2 HARRIS, TRINITY MAYHEW1) was born 05 Dec 1886 in Briston, Norfolk2, and died 24 May 1946 in Norfolk & Norwich Hospital. He married ROSE ELLEN ELLIOTT 01 Mar 1918 in Register Office, E. Dereham, Norfolk, daughter of JAMES ELLIOTT and ELIZABETH PARSLEY. She was born 27 Jan 1898 in East Dereham, Norfolk, and died 18 Dec 1959 in Dereham Hospital, Norfolk.
SAUNDERS LAMB:
Known as Sidney John Wray
Births Dec 1886
Lamb Saunders Erpingham 4b 76
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This convo so interesting, The Shaws, Thorpes, Loveridges and Harrises married into the Grays. I havent looked into this side nearly enough to know much, but I have some refs which may prove useful to anyone researching the Harris Family.
Silva Gray (who became known as Silvester Gray) c.1793 Orwell Cam married Stephen Thorpe. I question if Stephen Thorpe corresponds to James Thorpe who married Elizabeth Buttress. Silva had a sister, Dinah who married Jim Shaw.
Silva and Dinah were daughters of Fowk/Founess Gray and Mary and its possible he (Fowk), had a brother Robert who married Mary Leighton and had a son Robert (b.1799 Isleham Cam) who married Sarah Harris (b.cir 1804 Cilington Cam).
Robert and Sarah had a son William b.cir 1839 c.1842 Stoke Ferry, who married Silvester Thorpe b.cir 1851 and had a daughter Beatrice in 1869.
An Ambrose Thorpe Gray c.1796 Bottisham Cam, s/o Wm Gray and Retty Smith married Maria Harris d/o John c.1815 Bedfordshire m1850 St Giles Cambridge.
Dinah Gray who married Jim Shaw had several children known as Thorpe and Shaw...
Silvester c.1819 Wicken Ex, married Stephen Loveridge
Cresana c.1818 Stotfold Bdf
Councillette b.cir 1820 married Jasper Shaw
Aquila (aka Amelia or Acorn) b.cir 1825 married James Andrews
Susannah c1826 Wrestlingworth Bdf married Jonas Shaw.
One more thing that may prove to be of interest:
There was a story somewhere heaven only knows where I cant remember about Roads of May. She was a Hearn, and became known as Rhoda because no one could bear to hear her name. I think the story went something like they pulled into private land and the farmer came out to tell them to move on, and the mother was in labour, and was dying, and indeed despite the farmers wifes best intents, did die, leaving Roads of May without her mum.
Someone like Sharon (Citizen Smith) might be able to shed more light on this one. I really cant remember the story that well, but I know I read it somewhere way back when.
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Hi
I take it this is the marriage
Marriages Jun 1865 (>99%)
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Buttris Sylvester Norwich 4b 201
GRAY William Norwich 4b 201
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'Roads of May' Heron is mentioned in the Reverend George Hall's book The Gypsy's Parson (published 1916). He gives her parents as Alfred Heron and Becky, Becky being the sister of Eliza Bettridge/Buttriss/Butteridge.
The story Hall tells is that Alfred and Becky were travelling in Shropshire. Becky was about to give birth and when she did, the child was a girl. Becky was very ill after the birth and sadly died. The parson who came to give her last rites baptised the baby as 'Flower of May' because as the Alfred said: "The wagon was under a may-tree and the flowers were dropping on the grass like snow." The local lord of the manor and his wife wanted to adopt the baby and made Alfred the offer of a bag of a hundred sovereigns but he wouldn't take it. Then later when Alfred died, the little girl was taken in by the parents of the man who told the story to Hall and as he said "They changed her name to Rodi for they couldn't abide to hear the name Flower of May no more; it reminded them too sadly of them as had gone."
So that's the explanation - only slightly wrong: Rose of May?? Roads of May?? Rather than Flower of May?? But the other odd thing is that Hall gives his informant the name of Ladin – but I now believe this is Ambrose Thorpe. This is perhaps confirmed in another part of the book where Hall says that 'Ladin's' wife was a Draper. Hall names her 'Juli' - but Ambrose's wife was indeed a Draper, named Leviathan! Can't really fathom why Hall has hidden their identities, when other characters in his book seem to have their own correct names.
Rodi/Rhoda/Roads of May eventually became the partner of Walter Hope, the son of Golden Hope and (I believe) Mary Smith, the latter being a many times great-aunt of mine.
Sharon
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The IGI has the Gray's of Isleham Cambridge
IGI Individual Record FamilySearch™ International Genealogical Index v5.0
British Isles
Search Results | Download
~~~~~~~~
FOUNDNESS GRAY Pedigree
Male
~~~~~~~~
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 06 JAN 1811 Isleham, Cambridge, England
~~~~~~~~
Parents:
Father: RILEY GRAY Family
Mother: LYDIA
Therefore he was not the brother of Robert Gray who married Sarah Harris.
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First of all, Thanks Sharon I knew Id heard that story somewhere. You are a superstar. No wonder it seemed familiar - The Revd George Hall and the Gypsys Parson were read by myself abt 10 years ago. (or more!) I know its online now too.
Alfred Heron and Becky must surely translate to Alfred Heron and Rebecca Butteridge - or Butteress!!!
This would be the same family as that of Crimea "Nukes" Heron - and Alfred as named on the Heron Pedigree is none other than John Hearn b.cir 1811 Holbeach Lin according to census info regarding Crimeas family. What his real name was heaven alone knows, but Alfred = John in this instance.
As for
"FOUNDNESS GRAY Pedigree
Male
~~~~~~~~
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 06 JAN 1811 Isleham, Cambridge, England "
s/o Riley Gray and Lydia Sly - tjis is an earlier Founess Gray. I have details of his family (ie both Riley and son Founess)
This particular Founess married Constant/Constance Smith. The earlier one married a Mary.
It goes something like this:
Charles Gray b.cir 1763 Ashwell Hrts s/o Codilla married Aquila Smith and had
Riley in 1789 Fen Ditton Cam married Lydia Sly d/o James Sly and Sophia Gray b.1790 Barrington Cam.
Riley and Lydia Had:
Lydia married John Brand
Foundness married Constance/Constant Smith
Riley (1812-14)
Edward (1812-13)
Sophia (1815-18)
Mahala
Riley m. Harriet Steadman
Nancy
Sarah
The earlier Fowk/Founess b cir 1755 buried 1828 St Giles Cambridge married a Mary and an Ann.
He had:
Ambrose
Constance married Meshack Smith
Dinah married "Big: Jim Shaw
Silva married Stephen (James?) Thorpe
Eleanor
Holland d.1828 aged 31 Wood Ditton
and Thomas 1798 GT Shelford Cam (my presumed 4grt grandad).
who had a liason with Charlotte (later m. Charles Gray) which produced my 3xgt Grandad Christopher 1815 Thurlby By Bourne Lin, before settling with his permanent wife, Susan Gray d/o Thomas and Susannah Faben (ie sister of Piramus and John Budd "Jack" Gray. as well as Maria married Israel Gray and Esther married Bill Tansey.
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If What Ive picked up on Alfred (John) and Rebecca is halfway accurate:
Everilda b.cir 1840 Patringham Yks
Jack b.cir 1842 near lincoln m. Glorina Lovell and had Lenni and Minno.
Moses b.cir 1846 Howden Lin (Yks) or Betley Yks married Melvina or Melenia Lee and had: Sarah Ann, Rachel (Photo exists), Athol, Alfred, Sophia, George, Christopher or Christmas, Omega or Megga, and Jonas.
Oki (No Other Info)
Crimea (Nukes) b.cir 1856 Chatteris/Isle of Ely, or Sketty,Glamorgan, Wales, married Delaia or Deliah Lee and had: Rodi, Juli, Beatrice, Sequa, Oscar, James, Thomas, and Chesire.
Eldirifa b.cir 1851 near Huntingdon
Dola b.cir 1848 Peterborough
Anica b.cir 1852 Gloucester
Joanna (Hannah) b.cir 1854 Cambs married James Mochan
Aslog (no other info)
Lois (m) c.1843 Harmston Lincs
Rodi b.cir 1859-65 Monmouth "Flower of May" married Walter Hope.
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Hi all
Is this the same Roads of May ? ...see below
what a wonderful heritage .... I am from the Penfolds and Orchards.
Hi ...I hope I am not repeating info that others may have;
This is the 1871 census of james Thorpe b 1851, father of Sylvester who married John Harris.
1871
Crown Inn. St Paul, Cambridge
James Thorpe head 53 traveller b cambs
Eliza wife 53 b finchley, Middlesex
JAMES son 19 traveller b Cambs, Pampisford
Providence dau 17 b Milden Hall, Suffolk
Emanuel son 15 b Suffolk
Roads of May niece 11 b Shropshire ..... what a FABULOUS name ;D
Ambrose son 6
deb
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Heres the rest of the family in 1861:
Gipsies Travelling, Balsham, Cam 1861
Charles Grey 1784 Teversham or Fordham, Cam. Gipsy Tinker and Fiddler (s/o Charles & Aquila)
Ann Grey 1795 Brinkley Cam (Mary Ann nee Thorpe)
Lucretia Casbott 1852 daughter Balsham Cam
\\
Sarah Lee married 60 Gipsy Travelling Bedfordshire
Rachel Hurn Wid. 54 Gipsy Travelling Luton Hunts (nee Lee, widow of Edward "Naibai" with her son by him -)
Samuel Hurn son 21 Tinker and Brazier Windham Nfk
\\
John Hurn Wid 50 Tinker and Brazier Holbeach, Lin (AKA Alfred)
Everhilda Hurn daughter 20 Net & Peg Mkr Petingham Yk
Jack Hurn 19 son Tinker & Brazier near Lincoln
Moses Hurn son 14 Tinker & Brazier Howden Lin
Dola Hurn dtr 13 Net & Peg Mkr Peterboro Nhts
Eldirifa Hurn dtr 10 Net & peg mkr near Huntingdon
Union Hurn dtr 8 Gloucester
Joana Hurn dtr 6 near Cambridge
Crimea Hurn 4 son Chatteris, Isle of Ely (AKA Nukes)
Is it the same Roads of May? I think it probably is..... It would make sense for her to live with Auntie Eliza after her mothers death, and her father clearly had a large family to cater for already, as is shown above.
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And where was Roads of May aka Rhoda?
Buckden Hunts 1861
RG9 981 151 27
James Thorpe 45
Elizabeth Thorpe 45
Edmund Thorpe 23
Ambrose Thorpe 20
Edengail Thorpe 16
Oliver Thorpe 14
Eliza Thorpe 13
Joseph Thorpe 12
Holland Thorpe 11
James Thorpe 6
Mace Thorpe 3
Rhoda Herne 2 Niece
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Concerning Rhoda Herne amd Roads of May " Thorpe "
In the 1861 census Rhoda Herne is recorded as the niece of James Thorpe/ Elizabeth Thorpe nee Buttress.
In the 1871 census again Roads of May is recorded as the niece of James and Elizabeth.
Who are the parents of Rhoda / Roads of May, for if the census record is to be believed , than the mother has to be the sister of James, or possibly the sister of Elizabeth, but
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Concerning Rhoda Herne and Roads of May " Thorpe "
In the 1861 census Rhoda Herne is recorded as the niece of James Thorpe/ Elizabeth Thorpe nee Buttress.
In the 1871 census again Roads of May is recorded as the niece of James and Elizabeth.
Who are the parents of Rhoda / Roads of May, for if the census record is to be believed , than the mother has to be the sister of James, or possibly the sister of Elizabeth, but I assume the term niece is to the head of the family .
I have no record of any siblings of James Thorpe bn c 1818, I do have James bn 1818 to John Thorpe and Silvester Gray.
Cuxwold
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Dear All
I have found Israel Thorpe married to Caroline Gray a Hawker/Wireworker.
Any connection to your Thorpe's?
Descendants of Israel Thorpe Gray
Generation No. 1
1. ISRAEL THORPE1 GRAY was born 1852 in Cottenham, Cambridge. He married CAROLINE GRAY Abt. Sep 1872 in Kings Lynn 4b 571, daughter of SAMPSON GRAY and CAROLINE ?. She was born 1852 in Lynn.
Notes for ISRAEL THORPE GRAY:
Births Mar 1874
Thorpe Mesech Cambridge 3b 533
Births Sep 1877
Thorpe Caroline Cambridge 3b 498
Births Dec 1878
Thorpe Sarah Cambridge 3b 521
Births Mar 1881
THORPE Wilhelmina Cambridge 3b 513
More About ISRAEL THORPE GRAY:
Occupation: 1881, Wireworker
Marriage Notes for ISRAEL GRAY and CAROLINE GRAY:
Marriages Sep 1872
~~~~~~~~
Gray Caroline King's L. 4b 571
Gray Israel Thorpe King's L. 4b 571
More About ISRAEL GRAY and CAROLINE GRAY:
Marriage: Abt. Sep 1872, Kings Lynn 4b 571
Children of ISRAEL GRAY and CAROLINE GRAY are:
i. MESECH GRAY2 THORPE, b. Abt. Mar 1874, Cambridge.
ii. CAROLINE GRAY THORPE, b. Abt. Sep 1877, Cambridge.
iii. SARAH GRAY THORPE, b. Abt. Dec 1879, Cambridge.
iv. WILHEMINA GRAY THORPE, b. Abt. Mar 1881, Cambridge.
v. ROBERT ISRAEL THORPE, b. Abt. Sep 1882, Cambridge; d. Abt. Jun 1918, Cambridge.
Regards
Lesley
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Hello Cindy
I was born into a travelling fair family and my aunt married Ronnie Harris. If you look at www.fairground-heritage.org.uk/forum the fairground families link has loads of information that you may find helpful, there is even a family tree where the Harris family link to the Freeman-Biddall family. This is the website that the information from `thegalloper' site was re-located to when that site collapsed. The site is run by the Fairground Heritage Trust and there is a lot of circus and other entertainer info there.
I hope this helps.
LoubieLou
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Concerning Rhoda Herne amd Roads of May " Thorpe "
Who are the parents of Rhoda / Roads of May, for if the census record is to be believed , than the mother has to be the sister of James, or possibly the sister of Elizabeth,
Rhoda/Roads of May was daughter of Alfred Hearn (aka John in the 61 Census) and his wife Rebecca "Becky" Buttress - sister of Elizabeth.
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Israel Thorpe/Gray was the son of Meshack Gray and Sarah Harris.
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Thanks for that info.
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Thank you Loubielou, :)
I have joined the message board and I'll see what transpires once my acceptance comes through. (I will be posting about the sherratt side as this one is not getting anywhere at the moment)
Thanks again everyone.
I've been overwhelmed with info from here and am just waiting for my birthday money so I can purchase some more certs and the Harris book.
Plenty to be getting on with!
Cindy x
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I am a descendent (4 x Grt grandson) of Robert Gray & Mary Leighton who were married, 25 July 1797, Isleham, Cambridge, England. I have only just discovered this chat site & I am quite fascinated by the much of the chat exchanges involving many families I am researching & attempting to link together.
I too tend to believe that Foundness/Founous/Fowk Gray to be a possible brother of the above Robert Gray though I am at present unable to verify such but, he fits very nicely.
As well as the Gray family of Cambridge I am also keen to find further information on the Leighton/Layton/Laighton etc.. family. Mary Leightons parents were William Leighton & Mary Torrington.
I'm also interested in the king family. One of Roberts sons &, my ancestor, William Gray married Ann King (daughter of George King) on the 9 November 1833 in Mildenhall, Suffolk. There's strong evidence to also indicate that yet another possible/probable son named Henry married a Mary King who possibly may have been a sister of the above Ann King which sort of fits in with the Gypsy family traditon.
Robert & Mary Gray relocated to Mildenhall, Suffolk sometime after 1812 & before 1833. From there some of their children eventually emigrated to both Tasmania & mainland Australia where several other of the extended Gray family of Cambridge either emigrated or, were transported as convicts.
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This is a post that I promised An65 a long time ago…
I am also a descendent (6th generation I think if I have counted right) of Robert Gray and Mary Leighton. My ancestor was their son Henry (born 1806) who married Mary King on 29/7/1831 in Mildenhall, Suffolk. Mary was the daughter of George and Ann King and was born circa 1812. Witnesses to the wedding were William Gray and Sarah King.
They had the following children:
Sarah/Sally Gray - Christened: 29/4/1832, Mildenhall, Suffolk
Leighton Gray - Christened: 1/6/1834, Mildenhall, Suffolk (baptism together with Susan Gray, daughter of William and Ann Gray)
Drusilla Gray - DOB: 22/08/1836, Christened: 13/12/1836, Math Wes Chaple, Mildenhall, Suffolk
Felix Gray – DOB: 3/05/1839, West Row, Mildenhall, Suffolk
Shadrach Gray – DOB: 21/03/1842, West Row, Mildenhall, Suffolk
Mary Gray died 15/02/1845 aged 33 at West Row, Mildenhall, Suffolk
Henry Gray and his 5 children immigrated to South Australia and arrived in April 1851 on board the “Osceola”. The family eventually settled in and around the Giles Corner/Riverton district in South Australia and were strongly involved in the local Methodist church and local district council. They originally leased then purchased land and were to the best of my knowledge reasonably successful farmers.
Henry eventually remarried and died in South Australia in 1891. The brief details of the 5 children are as follows:
Sarah Gray – died unmarried in 1856
Leighton Gray – died unmarried in 1867
Drusilla Gray married John Forster and they had 8 children and settled in Edenhope, Victoria, Australia.
Felix Gray married Jane Nottle and they had 7 children. The children married into various local farming families.
Shadrach Gray married Jane Glanville and they had 3 children.
Most of the families remained in the agricultural sector - some until this day.
As well as Henry Gray and William Gray spending some time in Mildenhall, Suffolk, my research has identified the following Mildenhall Grays:
Sarah Grey/Gray – married to Richard Rolfe 1/11/1832 and gave birth to a son (Richard Edward Rolfe) on 2/12/1832. Birth records of this child indicate Sarah to be the daughter of Robert and Mary Grey/Gray. Records of another family tree suggest this Sarah Grey/Gray was born in 1816 in Dallington, Cambridgeshire. Could she be a sister of Henry and William Gray?
Robert Gray – married to Susan Webb 5/11/1824.
Mary Gray – married to Matthew Stebbing 18/5/1826.
Mary Gray (daughter of Robert Gray) – burial 9/9/1802 (possible daughter of Robert and Mary Gray born in 1800??)
I have also uncovered death certificates that I think belong to Robert Gray and Mary Gray (Leighton). Robert Gray – died West Row, Mildenhall 30/1/1843 aged 68 (DOB: 1775) – accidentally shot. Mary Gray (wife of Robert Gray) – died West Row, Mildenhall 5/5/1849 aged 71 (DOB 1777/1778) – general debility.
There also seem to be a lot of King people around Mildenhall at this time. However, I am yet to link then directly to either Mary or Ann King or to conclusively find George and Ann King (1841 census has a George and Ann King in Lackford, Mildenhall aged 70 and 65 respectively). Given Sarah Gray was a witnesses at the wedding of Henry Gray to Mary King, it may well be she is a sister to Mary and Ann. This would need to be confirmed.
Nightmare – given your lineage through William Gray are Australian like myself? I have previously swapped emails with a couple of Australia based William Gray decendants??
Finally, based on names, dates and places it is reasonable to conclude my Henry Gray is the son of Robert Gray and Mary Leighton. However, at this stage I have seen no primary source factual information to really confirm this link (ie not IGI). Can anyone help me here???
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Hi Grayaust,
I had already researched most of your information some time ago now. I do have your Henry Gray entered as one of Robert & Mary (nee Leightons) Gray’s children based upon IGI research mainly. There is a lot of coincidences with Gray/King witnesses, Gray/King intermarriage, locations, dates, Gypsy names, the dual baptism of respective children of Henry’s & his brother William Gray, the King girls, etc…. Definitely some sort of family connection at the least, looks pretty convincing as far as Henry being Robert & Mary’s son ? Often that’s as good as it gets Grayaust.
From research passed onto myself from the King family, yes, Mary King & Ann King were sisters according to a King researcher based upon a King family bible inscription.
The Kings were another well known Gypsy family & again they also have many relationships with the Gray family. One example is as follows,
William King married Joycey Gray, daughter of William Gray & Salome Ellen Boillin. They had a daughter named Sarah King who married Walter Gray, son of Elias Gray & Sarah Smith.
I have Robert & Mary Gray’s children so far as being,
Robert Gray b. 1799 in Isleham, Cambridge, England
Mary Gray b. 1800 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, yes I have her as the one who died 1802.
Henry Gray b. 1804 in Isleham, Cambridge, England
William Gray b. 1812 in Dunnagan, Cambridgeshire, England
Sarah Gray b. 1816 in Dallington, Cambridgshire, England. Yes, this Sarah being the wife of the Richard Rolfe you mentioned.
Coincidently the Rolfe family also has another relationship I have in my research. A brief family outline showing such is as follows.
Susannah Rolfe. She married William Faben, married 16 Jun 1791 in Burwell, Cambridge, England.
I. Susannah Faben, b. 1768 in Burwell, Cambridge, England. She married Thomas Gray, married 16 Jun 1791 in Burwell, Cambridge, England, b. 1764 in Cambridgeshire, England, (son of Thomas Gray and Elizabeth).
A. Joseph Gray, b. 1792 in Burwell, Cambridge, England.
B. Susan Gray, b. 1795 in Burwell, Cambridge, England. She married Thomas Gray, b. C, 1798 in Great Shelford, Cambridge, England, (son of Foundness (Founous/Fowk) Gray and Mary).
C. John Budd (Jack) Gray, b. 1798 in Cambridge, England, d. 30 Aug 1868 in Australia. He married (1) Uri Heron, b. 20 Nov 1803 in Surfleet, Lincolnshire, England, (daughter of Edward Heron and Rose Lovell). He married (2) Eliza Heron, b. 8 Nov 1807, (daughter of Edward Heron and Rose Lovell). He married (3) Maria Boswell. He married (4) Harriet Williams, b. 1806 in Leeds, Yorkshire, England. He married (5) Frances Dowling.
D. Pyramus Gray, b. 1802 in Outwell, Cambridge, England, d. 1886 in Louth, Lincolshire, England. He married Amelia Heron, b. 1798 in Norfolk,England, (daughter of Edward Heron and Rose Lovell).
E. Maria Gray, b. 1805 in Upwell, Cambridge, England. She married Israel Gray, b. 1805, (son of William Gray and Henrietta (Retty) Smith).
F. William Gray, b. 1808 in Upwell, Cambridge, England, d. 1808 in Upwell, Cambridge, England.
G. Francis Gray, b. 1809 in Upwell, Cambridge, England, d. 1812 in Upwell, Cambridge, England.
H. Esther Gray, b. 1812 in Cambridgeshire, England, christened 1812 in Outwell, Cambridge, England. She married William Tansey, b. C. 1806 in Wales,United Kingdom.
The above Gray family branch has also married into the descendents of Robert & Mary Gray several times. My challenge at present finding who are Robert Grays parents ?
You also mention amongst the Mildenhall, Suffolk Grays -- Mary Gray married to Matthew Stebbing 18/5/1826. By coincidence I had lunch with some Stebbing family last Friday who are of Welsh Gypsies.
My apologies for taking so long in my response, but I hope I have shed some light upon some matters for you. It’s a well & truly tangled family tree fraught with many mysteries. Sometimes Grayaust exact verification is impossible, sadly.
Nightmare
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Dear Nightmare
Thank you very much for all this valuable information. It is indeed a tangled tree. You have given me a few things to digest.
Based on census data and the death certificate I am pretty sure belongs to Robert Gray, year of birth was 1775. I have managed to track a Robert Gray on IGI born 8 Oct 1775 to John and Mary Gray in Gamlingay, Cambridge. A possible hit – albeit from the otherside of Cambridge to Isleham where most of the early Robert Gray/Mary Leighton children were born? Interestingly, according to IGI a girl (Paty Gray) was also born on the same day to John and Mary Gray – twins I guess…
Regarding the Mary Gray that married Matthew Stebbings – 1851 census suggests a birth year of 1807. Perhaps another child of Robert Gray and Mary Leighton (after the death of the first Mary in 1802)?
One thing that maybe you could help me with. Where abouts in Cambridgeshire were/are Dallington or Dunnagan (birth places of Sarah and William Gray)? I cannot find them.
Grayaust
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Hi Grayuast,
I think the name Leighton/Layton Gray (1834 – 1867) gives a further strong point as well for being a grandson of Robert & Mary (nee Leighton) Gray.
In my data I have a John Gray who married “Mary” & they fit the time frame for being possible parents of Robert Gray b. 1775. I have listed below a brief family outline for you of which you can see but I have only one child, Charles Gray listed for them.
Their descendents did marry into relatives of Robert & Mary (Leighton) Gray’s family so there are connections . As you can see the family tree becomes further tangled & this branch ended up in Lincolnshire, which, is where a lot of our other relatives at one time or another lived or visited. More information for this John & Mary Gray is needed but it’s a possible lead.
John Gray, b. C. 1755 in Cambridgeshire, England. He married Mary.
I. Charles Gray, b. 1783 in Cambridgeshire, England, christened 20 Jan 1783 in Meldreth, Cambridgeshire, England, d. 1862 in Balsham, Cambridgeshire, England. He married Charlotte, b. C. 1780.
A. Charles Gray, b. C. 1811 in Bristol,Gloucestershire,England. He married Lydia Elliot, married 1831, b. 13 Mar 1808 in Willoughby On The Wolds, Nottinghamshire, England, (daughter of John Elliot and Jemima Smith).
1. John Gray, b. C. 1833 in Brauncewell, Lincolnshire, England. He married Eliza, b. 1834 in Ingoldsby, Lincolnshire, England.
2. Abraham Gray, b. 1835 in England, christened 26 Jul 1835 in South Kyme, Lincolnshire, England. He married Harriet Smith, b. in Quarrington, Lincolnshire, England, (daughter of Matthew Smith and Charlotte).
3. Clark Gray, b. C. 1838 in Coleby, Lincolnshire, England. He married Mary Ann Gray, b. C. 1837 in Leasingham, Lincolnshire, England, (daughter of Christopher Gray and Maria Smith).
4. Charles Gray, b. 1839 in England, christened 25 Jan 1839 in Harmston, Lincolnshire, England. He married Charlotte Elliot, (daughter of Charles Elliot and Lydia).
5. Joseph Gray, b. C. 1840. He married Mary Ann Newbury.
6. William Gray, b. C. 1842 in Burton, Lincolnshire, England. He married Mary Ann Elliot.
7. Phoenix Gray, b. 1842 in England, christened 3 Apr 1842 in Harmston, Lincolnshire, England. He married Lydia Newberry.
8. Abigail Gray, b. C. 1847. She married Thomas Gray, b. C. 1846 in Waddington, Lincolnshire, England, (son of Christopher Gray and Maria Smith).
In my data I also have many Gray’s from Gamlingay, Cambridgeshire going back to the late 1500’s but, I haven’t made much sense of connecting them as yet, very patchy. So it’s not unreasonable over the generations & years for the family to spread from Gamlingay to Isleham, to Mildenhall, Suffolk & so on There are numerous Robert & John Gray’s listed in Gamlingay in the IGI.
The census material can be very misleading too as it was common practice for our Gypsy relatives to use various surnames, forenames as well as many variations of either or both. They also weren’t at all particular about birthdates & locations, I have some who have varied their birth year by 15 years or more in census ! & then from census to census they can vary again.
I'm a afraid I can't be of any assitance with the locations of Dallington & Dunnagan but, I did find a Dillington in Cambridgeshire. I tried the obvious sources but to no avail.
Nightmare
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Hi Grayaust,
I dug around my files & realised that I had the following information regarding John & Mary Gray of Gamlingay, Cambridgeshire when I did a location search. I believe they had the following children & grandchildren.
I tend to think that this John & Mary Gray are the more likely parents of Robert Gray at this stage. A further coincidence is that I also had twins but, sadly born stillborn, but I do have twins amongst my grandchildren & further twins are in my family bridging the generation gap to these people listed.
Robert Gray - Christened 8 Oct 1775, Gamlingay, Cambridge
Paty Gray - Christened 8 Oct 1775, Gamlingay, Cambridge
John Gray - Christened 19 Jan 1780, Gamlingay, Cambridge
Zacharias Gray - Christened 11 Nov 1770, Gamblingay, Cambridge
Zacharias Gray married Barbara Ward, 7 Mar 1791, Gamlingay, Cambridge
They had the following children
Elling Gray - christened 15 Jan 1792, Gamlingay, Cambridge
Frances Gray - christened 9 Nov 1794, Gamlingay, Cambridge
Zacharias Gray - christened 3 May 1797, Gamlingay, Cambridge
The following Gray family is living at Isleham, Cambridge at the same time as Robert Gray & there are family connections amongst Codilla’s descendents.. Codilla could be an aunty or great aunty of Robert Gray ?
Codilla Gray, b. C. 1740 in Cambridge, England. Her parents are unknown at this stage.
I. Charles Gray, b. 1762 in Ashwell, Hertsfordshire, England, christened 1763 in Ashwell, Hertsfordshire, England. He married Aquila Smith, b. 1764 in Bury , St Edmunds, Cambridgeshire, England.
A. Charles Gray, b. 1784 in Teversham (Fordham), Cambridgeshire, England, christened 20 Jan 1788 in Teversham, Cambridgeshire, England. He married Ann, b. 1794.
B. Abraham Gray, b. 1786 in Cambridgeshire, England, christened 2 Apr 1786 in Stow Cum Quy, Cambridge, England.
C. Riley Gray, b. 1789 in Fen Ditton, Cambridgeshire, England. He married (1) Lydia Sly, married 10 May 1809 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, b. 1790 in Barrington, Cambridgshire, England, (daughter of James Sly and Sophia Gray) christened 14 Mar 1790 in Barrington, Cambridgshire, England. He married (2) Sarah, b. C. 1787 in Basington, Hertfordshire, England.
D. William Gray, b. 3 Jul 1791 in Ashwell, Hertsfordshire, England. He married (1) Salome Ellen Boilin, married in Lincolnshire,England, b. 1823 in Scampton, Lincolnshire, England, (daughter of George Boilin and Joyce Tansey) christened 1823 in Scampton, Lincolnshire, England. Partner Bethania (Tabatha) Smith, not married b. 24 Aug 1800 in Seaton, Rutland, England, (daughter of Wisdom Smith and Hannah Smith). He married (3) Tabitha Smith, b. 16 Nov 1803 in Cropwell, Nottingham, England, (daughter of Wisdom Smith and Hannah Smith).
E. Acquila Gray, b. 1793 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, christened 21 Oct 1793 in Isleham, Cambridge, England.
F. Elizabeth Ann Gray, b. 1795 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, christened 22 Nov 1795 in Isleham, Cambridge, England.
G. John Gray, b. 1798 in Cambridgeshire, England, christened 19 Apr 1798 in Isleham, Cambridge, England. He married Margaret Richardson, married 1821 in Brandon, Suffolk, England, b. C. 1801 in Bramber, Suffolk, England.
H. Amy Gray, b. 1801 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, christened 27 May 1801 in Isleham, Cambridge, England.
I. Cordelia Gray, b. 1805 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, christened 24 Mar 1805 in Isleham, Cambridge, England.
J. Christiana Gray, b. 1803 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, christened 14 May 1803 in Isleham, Cambridge, England.
K. Peter Gray, b. 1807 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, christened 29 Mar 1807 in Isleham, Cambridge, England. He married Sarah, b. 1807.
L. Margareta Gray, b. 1807 in Cambridgeshire, England.
M. Levoy Gray, b. 1809 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, christened 13 Aug 1809 in Isleham, Cambridge, England.
N. Bathsheba Gray, b. 1812 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, christened 24 May 1812 in Isleham, Cambridge, England.
Nightmare
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Hi Grayuast,
I have a reasonably large data base & it does take some time looking at the different family tree views depending upon which person you start from. You may appreciate with all this inter family marrying it can be quite an eye full to observe & absorb.
I later realised the following after sending yesterdays post, the following information which may be of interest to you in our Gray family jigsaw & movements.
Charles & Aquila (nee Smith) Grays son John Gray relocated to Brandon, Suffolk. Another son of Charles & Aquila, Riley Gray had a son named Founness Gray & some of his children also relocate to Suffolk. This all the information of have for John & Margaret at this stage.
John Gray, b. 1798 in Cambridgeshire, England, christened 19 Apr 1798 in Isleham, Cambridge, England. He married Margaret Richardson, married 1821 in Brandon, Suffolk, England, b. C. 1801 in Bramber, Suffolk, England.
I. Mary Ann Gray, b. 1822 in Brandon, Suffolk, England, christened 12 May 1822 in Brandon, Suffolk, England.
II. Patrick Gray, b. 17 Aug 1823 in Brandon, Suffolk, England, christened 14 Sep 1823 in Brandon, Suffolk, England.
III. Susan Gray, b. 13 Mar 1826 in Brandon, Suffolk, England, christened 21 May 1826 in Brandon, Suffolk, England.
IV. John Gray, b. 1827.
V. Selena Gray, b. 1831 in Brandon, Suffolk, England, christened 1 May 1831 in Brandon, Suffolk, England.
VI. David Gray, b. 1834.
VII. Moses Gray, b. 1836.
VIII. Frances (Fanny) Gray, b. 1838 in Brandon, Suffolk, England.
This is a brief family outline for Riley & Margaret Grays family
Riley Gray, b. 1789 in Fen Ditton, Cambridgeshire, England. He married (1) Lydia Sly, married 10 May 1809 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, b. 1790 in Barrington, Cambridgshire, England, (daughter of James Sly and Sophia Gray) christened 14 Mar 1790 in Barrington, Cambridgshire, England. He married (2) Sarah, b. C. 1787 in Basington, Hertfordshire, England.
I. Founness Gray, (son of Riley Gray and Lydia Sly) b. 1807 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, christened 6 Jan 1811 in Isleham, Cambridge, England. He married Constania Smith, married C. 1830, b. 1807.
A. Founess Gray, b. 1833 in Suffolk,England, christened 19 May 1833 in Cowlinge, Suffolk, England.
B. William Gray, b. 1835.
C. Lazarus Gray, b. 1838.
D. Miranda Gray, b. 1839. She married Abraham Smith, married 27 Jun 1862 in Saint John The Evangelist, Bury Saint Edmunds, Suffolk, England, b. C. 1835.
E. Bathsheba Gray, b. 1843 in Suffolk,England, christened 5 Nov 1843 in Woolpit, Suffolk, England.
F. Christopher Gray.
G. Meshack Gray.
H. Shadrack Gray, b. 1850 in Suffolk,England, christened 11 Feb 1850 in Saint John The Evangelist, Bury Saint Edmunds, Suffolk, England.
I. Abednego Gary.
J. Laurence Gray, b. 1852 in Suffolk,England, christened 2 Mar 1852 in Saint John The Evangelist, Bury Saint Edmunds, Suffolk, England.
K. Abraham Gray.
II. Riley Gray, (son of Riley Gray and Lydia Sly) b. 1812 in Isleham, Cambridge, England, d. 13 Nov 1814.
III. Edward Gray, (son of Riley Gray and Lydia Sly) b. 1812, d. 1813.
IV. Sophia Gray, (daughter of Riley Gray and Lydia Sly) b. 1815 in Cambridgeshire, England, christened 12 Nov 1815 in Stow Cum Quay, Cambridge, England, d. Mar 1818.
V. Mahala Gray, (daughter of Riley Gray and Lydia Sly).
VI. Riley Gray, (son of Riley Gray and Lydia Sly). He married Harriet Steadman, married 1 Oct 1844 in Offham, Kent, England.
VII. Lydia Gray, (daughter of Riley Gray and Lydia Sly) b. 1822 in Cambridge, England, christened 1822 in Shefferidge near Royston, Hertfordshire, England. She married John Brand, married 1842 in Ely, Cambridge, England, b. 1809 in Isle Of Ely, Cambridge, England.
A. Job Brand, b. 1843 in Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, England, christened 12 Feb 1843 in Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, England.
B. Esther Brand, b. 1845 in Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, England.
C. John Brand, b. 1847 in Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, England.
D. Lawrence Brand, b. 1850 in Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, England. He married Mary Ann Stacey, married 1871 in Kings Lynn, Cambridgeshire, England.
E. Easter Brand, b. 1859 in Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, England, christened 14 Jun 1859 in Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, England.
VIII. Nancy Gray, (daughter of Riley Gray and Lydia Sly) b. 1832 in Cambridge, England, christened 8 Apr 1832 in St Vigor, Fulbourn, Cambridge, England.
IX. Sarah Gray, (daughter of Riley Gray and Sarah) b. 1835 in Wilberham, Cambridgeshire, England, christened 2 May 1835 in St Vigor, Fulbourn, Cambridge, England, d. 1 May 1920.
X. Esther Gray, (daughter of Riley Gray and Sarah) b. 1846 in Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, England.
Another son of Charles & Aquila Gray named Abraham Gray, b. 1786, married in 1806, Isleham, Cambridge, a Mary Gammon, b. 1787 Isleham, Cambridge. She was the daughter of Joseph & Jesse (nee Talbot) Gammon. As a curio, I have from Isleham, Cambridge other marriages between the Leighton & Gammon families but as yet to connect them.
Nightmare
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Dear Nightmare
Sorry it has been so long. You have provided a lot of info to digest. Searching through some Cambridge Family History Society fiche for Gamlingay I have located the records you have mentioned previously for John & Mary Gray (christenings for Robert, Paty and John Gray). All records indicate John was a bricklayer.
However, I have also found a death record for a "Robart Gray", son of Mary and John Gray (bricklayer) (I presume the "Robart" is actually "Robert") with a burial date of 26 Nov 1776. Kind of suggests that maybe this is not the family link for the Robert Gray that married Mary Leighton. Back to the drawing board!
Also, the fiche records note that Paty Gray was born sometime during 1774. As such, I wonder if whilst Robert and Paty were christened on the same day but were born on different dates.
You probably have this info, but just in case I have also found a burial entry on 19 Nov 1793 for Ellin Gray, dau of Zackeriah (bricklayer) and Barbory. I suspect that this may well be the Elling Gray (dau of Zacharias and Barbara) christened 15 Jan 1792.
Finally, I have found a burial record for 26 Nov 1782 for an Elizabeth Gray, wife of John (bricklayer). Any idea where she fits in??
Grayaust
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Hi Grayaust,
I agree that John & Mary Gray aren’t the parents of our Robert Gray. I do though tend to strongly speculate that they are blood relatives of ours somewhere, some how. I have several other Grays that I feel are also connected with this family but I’m struggling to find the links at present. Here’s where I’m up to with this branch of the Gray family which in part overlaps & concurs with your research also.
Robert Gray, b. C. 1680 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England.
He married Mary.
I. George Gray, b. 1703 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, christened 16 Jun 1703 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England.
II. Zacrias Gray, b. 1716 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, christened 1 Jan 1716 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England.
He married Sarah.
A. Sarah Gray, b. 1739 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, christened 30 Sep 1739 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England.
B. John Gray, b. 1743 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, christened 4 Sep 1743 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England.
He married Mary.
1. Zackariah Gray, b. 1770 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, christened 11 Nov 1770 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England.
He married Barbara Ward, married 7 Mar 1791 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, b. C. 1770.
a. Elling Gray, b. 1792 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, christened 15 Jan 1792 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, d. 1793 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England.
b. Frances Gray, b. 1794 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, christened 9 Nov 1794 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England.
c. Zachariah Gray, b. 1797 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, christened 3 May 1797 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England.
2. Robert Gray, b. 1775 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, christened 8 Oct 1775 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, d. 1776 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, buried 26 Nov 1776.
3. Paty Gray, b. 1775 in Cambridgeshire, England, christened 8 Oct 1775 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England.
4. John Gray, b. 1780 in Cambridgeshire, England, christened 19 Jan 1780 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England.
C. Jane Gray, b. 1746 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, christened 31 Mar 1746 in Gamlingay, Cambridge, England, d. 29 Dec 1749.
Robart was quite a common spelling variation Robert as is Barbory/Barbara & Elling/Ellen.
Regarding John & Elizabeth Gray, I presume that is her married name though many Grays of the same vast family have intermarried amongst themselves.
Regarding Elizabeth Gray, buried 26 November 1782. I have a John Gray b. 1640, Gamlingay, christened 16 May 1641, Gamlingay, d. 19 April 1719 Gamlingay & buried 24 April 1719, Gamlingay. This John Gray from my research married 15 April 1672, Gamlingay, Elizabeth (Wallis) Walles. John Grays father was also named John Gray but I haven’t been able to find out the mothers name. I don’t have a death date for this Elizabeth Gray but this couple fits the time zone you mention.
So far I have found only 3 children associated with them..
John Gray,
Mary Gray who was buried 11 July 1749, Gamlingay.
Robert Gray christened 25 July 1678, Gamlingay.
I’m of the opinion that our Robert Gray’s ancestors were settled in the Isleham locality of Cambridgeshire for several generations at least before he was born. The Grays are numerous in Isleham, prior to his birth being found for more than a 100 years before his birth there.
Nightmare
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Children of TRINITY HARRIS and MARY ? are:
i. WILLIAM2 HARRIS, b. Abt. 1854, East Dereham.
2. ii. GEORGE HARRIS, b. Bet. 1854 - 1856, Ely, Cambridgeshire; d. Abt. Dec 1896, Mitford 4b 181.
3. iii. JOHN HARRIS, b. Abt. Mar 1859, Watton, Norfolk; d. Bef. 1916.
iv. CHARLES HARRIS, b. Abt. Feb 1861, Carbrooke, Norfolk.
Baptised: 15 Mar 1861, St Peter & St Paul, Carbrooke, Norfolk
Hello , i've been desperately seeking my GG Gparents with no luck , but there are many similarities with people you have mentioned , any help or pointers would be greatfully received .
Agnes Wilson was born abt 1905 and married in Wayland Register office on 25 Aug 1926 to George Arthur Chapman born in Saham Toney .
We know from her marriage certificate that her parents were Hiram Wilson , a Hawker who was buried in Hockering in 1941 age 79 , thus born 1862 , and he was married to an Abigail ---- 1872 to 1946 , buried with him .
we havent been able to find these folk at all on the census , three possible Hiram's show up at various times but not of the right age or wife ,
Hiram , who we think was a traveller at some time , is known by the family to have other children to be bro's & sis's of Agnes - but very scarce on dates
Mark - bn 1909 , married to Evelyn
Oswald
William - had 2 kids by unknown partner
Bridy
Violet
Tilly
Also from the marriage cert' a witness was a P Harris , no other Harris' we know of so may be a friend of the wilson's or could this be Abigail's surname ? as we are very light on info about her .
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Hi
I have a Harris/Buttris connection too.
My 5x gt grandfather Aaron Harris and wife Sarah have 4 known children
Elizabeth Harriss bap07/03.1790 Litlington Cambs
Ann Harriss bap 30/10/1791 Litlington Cambs
Moses Harriss bap 06/04/1794 " "
Willaim Harriss bap 25/04/1802 " "
Moses married Sarah Buttris 14/10/1816 at Haddenham Cambs
They had 2 known ch
Moses Harris c1832 who married Mary Ann Webb 23/02/1874 Stratford Essex
Benjamin bap 24/03/1839 Horseheath Litlington married unknown
Benjamin had 1 known son Parrimas Harris 1877 - 1877
Moses & Mary had 3 known children
Elizabeth Harris 1859 - 1889 - married Frederick Trout & partner Arthur Humphreys
Thomas Harris c 1867 - 1920 - Partner unknown
Parowmas Harris c1869 - 1923 - Maria Amos
Parowmas & Maria had 5 known ch
Moses 1889 - 1950
Maria 1893 - 1984
Parowmas 1896 - 1963
Louisa 1906 - 1997
Thomas 1910 - 1915
It sounds like they are connected to your Harris family
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Hi,
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Hi,
I have a lot of questions regarding the Wilson/Harris family(ies) of Cambridgeshire & Suffolk. I have alot of material I feel is being replicated in my own data owing to my confusion of
is this a different or the same Hiram Wilson with a different partner.
or is he a cousin, uncle or such of, & so on...... not to mention their lack of cocern for detail in census, marriage cert's, birth cert's etc.... & not just the two families mentioned above of which I have many Harris/Wilson marriages/partnerships but just about all of the other Gypsy families that are related to these two families many times over including several from my Gray family which has just as many of the same confusions.
I've struggled with the Harris/Wilson family for quite a while now compared to other families.
Nightmare
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Hi , yes we are still no further along either ,
family knowledge has it the gray's are connected somewhere , and Hiram Wilson is the only possible link as everyone else was a farmer , also that he may have come from ireland at some point , with or before his wife we don't yet know ,
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hello i saw this fabulous link and had to say hello to you all i am the 4 x grt grandaugther of ambrose thorpe and levithan draper . descendant of james thorpe and elizabeth buttriss im very confused with everything on here but am definatly going to wade through this whole link get info on my tree.. i believe i am a descendant of the foulk gray that is mantioned on here
hello again to you all look forward to hearing from you all i have very little info on my gray side of family have a bit more info on the thorpes .xx
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Hello all , well we had a look at the census and found our GG Gfather Hiram Wilson , a Hawker in Jin ware who appears to have been born in 1862 in Lowestoft , and was married to Abgael , possibly Bird born 1872 maybe in Chatteris , Cambs
They were all living in 2 Traveller vans in North Walsham , Ridlington Heath
They have 13 kids living with them : ages at 1911 - they were all listed as of unknown Birthplace and we couldn't find any of them on the bmd yet
Hiram 20
Wiphe 19
Sishe 17
Robert 15
Alas 14
Abgael 13
Tilda 12
William 11
Joseph 10
Polly 7
Agnes 4
Miney 2
Mark 3month
Agnes is our GMother , and possibly Polly could be one of the witnesses to her marriage if she later married a Mr Harris , will have to follow up if we can
This appears to be the correct Hiram for our records , and ages fit well - its just strange we havent found any reference to him anywhere else before ? any ideas anyone
Clave
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hello i have john thorpe married to silvester gray born 1793
her parents were foulk and mary . i see there are mentions of a foulness/foulk on here but a diff time scale to mine does anyone know if there is any connection and what it might be to the grays on here. the family i have is
foulk and mary
chilfren
ambrose 1780
diney 1781
constant 1783
john
mary 1783
charles
jim
silvester 1793
holland 1796
any help would be gratefully received also any help on the butrriss/ buttredge family
i have an elizabeth marrying james thorpe but no other family info.
thanks in advance donna
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Hi everyone,
I just thought I'd check on the post I started, phew! I'm still wading through it, all very confusing.
I was wondering if any of the people who have alot on the Thorpes/Gray/Harris etc have written it all down for publication in places like the Romany and Traveller fhs (presuming they are still going?) as I'm sure many of us would find this very valuable.
Also, I'm finding it hard to locate a birth certificate for my G. Grandmother Sylvia Harris/Thorpe. (daughter of James and Eliza Thorpe) Apparantly family members tried to get a copy when she needed to claim her pension and they were told that there was no record. I can't find one on Freebmd and there is very little obvious evidence of her or her siblings. So I assume James and Eliza Thorpe didn't get them registered?
So, everyone getting the info from the IGI? I have tried but can't seem to locate the info.
Or is it from Parish records from other sources?
I thought fellow researchers might be interested in the 1911 entries that I've transcribed for Harris and Thorpe
But having read the copyright stuff I wasn't sure if I'm allowed to post my own transcription, like you can with other census's. Can anyone enlighten me?
Cindy x
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Hi Cindy
Just to reassure you, the Romany and Traveller FHS continues in excellent health and is going from strength to strength. The Society celebrates its 15th anniversary this year with a 650-strong membership that's constant and increasing.
I'll pass on your suggestion about publishing a Thorpe/Gray/Harris family tree book or books to the Publishing Committee - and in fact, know that a Thorpe book is already in development.
Best wishes
Sharon
(Vice Chair – RTFHS)
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hi sharon im so excited to hear there is a thorpe book in progress please keep me posted
donna
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hi
With regard to the registration of the children of Sylvia & John Harris.
One possible subject is " Sinfie " as recorded in the 1911 census.
She is recorded as bn 1909 in the census, and the area is Cambridgeshire
A quick search through Freebmd brings up Cynthia...Sinfie..Cynfie ??bn
North Witchford Mar 1909....
Considering Sylvia is really Sylvester, its a possibillty
Ron
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Hi Ron
That's well spotted. You often find the name Sinfi/e recorded as Cynthia in official documents.
Sharon
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Sharon, that's great news :)
I was helped out by some members of the RTFHS at their stand at a SOG fair some years ago, I will probably join now I've finally got round to attempting my mum's side of the family.
Ron,
Sorry I didn't make myself clear, there's no problem with Sylvia/Sylvester Sherratt (nee Harris)'s birth cert (St Ives, Cambs 1904)
Its interesting to hear that Synfie is 'Cynthia' on the index, as I was christened 'Cynthia' and my mum called me Cindy saying its the 'official shortening' of Cynthia and that it was 'originally Synfie' as she remembered older relatives called that.
The Sylvester/Sylvia/Sylve I was looking for is Sylvia's mum, Sylvia Harris, nee Thorpe. as in:
1881
10 Tommy Field, Oldham, Lancashire
James Thorpe. head, 30, b Kings Lynn, Cambridge,
Eliza Thorpe, 26, as above
Children: James, 6 yrs, King Lynn, Cambridge, Eliza, 4, b Halifax, York, Silvester, 3, Bradford, York, Mark, 2, Bradford, Cambridge,(?), Edmund, 7 months Huddersfield, York,
I think someone said they had a possible for Edmund, (back in this thread, somewhere!) but I can't see any for Sylvia, or any of the other children.
Any ideas or parish record entries? I don't seem to be getting anywhere.
Thanks
Cindy
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Hi Cindy
We've probably met then as I used to do all of the SOG fair events for the Romany and Traveller FHS – and will be at the forthcoming Barbican Fair in May. We'd make you very welcome if you decided to join - and we have quite a few members with Thorpe interests. :)
I'll dip into my Thorpe notes again to see if I have any info on these children.
Sharon
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:) Thanks Sharon.
My cousin has been sending me a large amount of research on the Sherratt's and today I've just got a few things that she has on the Harris/Thorpe side of things.
Appart from some wonderful pics (does anyone who has the wedding photo of Sylvia Thorpe/John Harris 1898 have any idea who the other people in the wedding group are? - I know the photo has been mentioned before), she did say that Sylvia Thorpe's mother Eliza Sarah Thorpe (married to James) maiden name was SLY and that she thinks this may be the census record for them:
1861
RG9/1244/75/ page 29
I haven't had time to transcribe it yet
Any comments welcome.
Cindy
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Hi :o) First time on RootsChat!!! Hoping someone might know of the Harris' who came from Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire (I was told they were Romanys and from the 'famous' Harris') particularly anything about John Harris born 1808 Flaxley, Forest of Dean he married Elizabeth ? born 1811 Newland also Forest of Dean they then moved to Sedgely in the Black Country where all their children were born. My direct decendant is Tamar harris born 1886 in Lower Gornal, Sedgley (John Harris' Granddaughter). Hope its not to confusing? Cheers.
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Hi,
I am an Australian descended from the Gray family of Gamlingay Cambridgeshire: Zachariah Gray and his son George Paine Gray.
George Paine Gray emigrated to Emerald Hill (South Melbourne), Victoria. His daughter Jessie Ballantyne Gray is my great grandmother. Other Gray relatives (nephew?) migrated and set up in rural Warragul area, Victoria.
I gather from this chat that the Grays were of gypsy line. Does that include all the local Grays? If so, can anyone tell me where to find research into the gypsies of this area?
Regards,
Julie
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Sent you a message Julie
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Posting this on behalf of Nightmare who had clicked accidentally on the wrong button :)
Sarah
Hi David & Claire,
I really don't have any further facts to add to your existing information regarding Hiram Wilson & Abigail Bird other than Hiram's father is allegedly William Wilson. This William Wilson also had another son named Mark Wilson b. c 1855, who married Eliza Thorpe, b 1848 Cambridge. This couple then in tun also had a son named Hiram Wilson, b. 1881 who married Euphemia Harris 1906, Bury, St Edmunds, Cambridge.
There's further connections to the Harris family with Hiram's (b. 1881) sister Beatrice b. 1884, who married 1902, Bury, St Edmunds, Cambridge, Alger Taylor, b. 1882 Thetford, Norfolk. Alger's mother was Sophia Harris.
The Lamb family are also tied up with the Waterfield, Gray & Harris family as well.
I haven't delved into this family unit for quite some time now but I will have a further snoop around & run all of this by a cousin of mine in England, I'll let you know what if anything else we can find to update this family unit.
Cheers for now
Gary
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Thanks to everyone for their help with the Harris's Grays and Wilsons,
story unravelling well now , clave