RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Ayashi on Monday 07 January 08 14:47 GMT (UK)
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One of the big gaps in the life of my G-g-grandfather was his military career.
He was born c.1863 near Carmarthen, Wales. I think he was still there in 1881, aged 18. Between 1881 and 1888, he moved the Plymouth, Devon, presumably to join up. He was in the Royal Marines (some sources say "RMLI" (Royal Marines Light Infantry) and one says "RMFS" (I think the person couldn't read it- I've looked at the original and the person who wrote it had the most awful handwriting) At the time of his son's birth (1890) he was a private and in the census 6 months later, he was a Lance Corporal. In 1901, he was a sergeant and he died (1916, East Stonehouse, Plymouth) with that rank, although his death certificate, as far as we can make out, says "Mess Steward". He was buried in Plymouth Old Cemetary (Pennycomequick).
I have no idea how to actually get his records. One of my relatives got hold of another family military record, but I can't get in contact with her. I hope someone can help...
P.S He died aged 52 and remained in Royal Marine barracks with his family until his death. We don't know when his wife died, but every record has her living in the barracks with him. Durnford Street rings a bell, as does "Valletort Buildings".
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http://www.fleetairarm.com/researchindex.htm
Thats an outstanding first name!! you should be able to get his records from here.I have had excellent service from them
Theres possibly some stuff at the NA Kew as well if you go on their website and search Royal Marines.The FAA museum should be your first call.
Ady ;)
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Hi Ayashi
Welcome to the Forum. My GGGF also served in the Royal Marines, from 1855 to 1876. He was promoted to Corporal only six months before he retired – I presume to give him a bigger pension – so your GGGF did very well. In my GGGF’s time they did not have Lance Corporal, so the rank must have been introduced later. I found his records about ten years ago in Kew and was able to get A2 copies in glorious colour. As they were trying out a new colour copying service, staff at Kew took an extra copy and pinned it to the wall of the copying room as a sample for years later. They probably took it down when they let visitors take their own photographs. His name was James Plummer if anyone remembers it.
Anyway, it will be RMLI. There was also the Royal Marine Artillery. I think they finally combined in the 1920s. At some time in the 19th Century they were called Red Marines (RMLI) and Blue Marines (RMA) from the colours of their tunics. Here is a link to the online guide at TNA - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/marines/step2.htm. Knowing that he was in Plymouth will help as finding his Division is half the battle. But you will need to visit Kew or employ a researcher.
In the 1901 census, have you seen his youngest daughter over the page, and also the visitor?
Ken
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:o The only census I have is a photocopied sheet I got off someone else, no I didn't know about over the page! Could I ask her name? (And the lodger?)
Will check the links in a moment, thanks!
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PLY/2619. Is that a division number?
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http://www.royalmarinesmuseum.co.uk/Royal%20Marines%20Service%20Papers%20at%20The%20Fleet%20Air%20Arm%20Museum.pdf
Found this whilst surfing.
That number you have sounds like his Service number:Ply=Plymouth Division
So hopefully with that you should find some records. :)
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Hi,
CWGC gives:
Name: JONES
Initials: T
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Serjeant
Regiment/Service: Royal Marine Light Infantry
Unit Text: Plymouth Div.
Date of Death: 05/03/1916
Service No: PLY/2619
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Church N. 5. 36.
Cemetery: FORD PARK CEMETERY (FORMERLY PLYMOUTH OLD CEMETERY) (PENNYCOMEQUICK)
The PLY prefix does indeed indicate Plymouth Division, RMLI. I would visit the PRO first, not the FAA Museum. Most of the information you seek should be contained in his service ledger entry (FAA records are discharge papers and duplicate the ledger entries). His service number suggests an enlistment between 1867 and 1885 which fits with what you say.
His record will be in ADM 159/65.
Rgds,
Alex
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Thank you. What I don't understand though is why he is listed as war dead when, as far as I can tell, his dying at the barracks was more or less coincidental. His daughter was by his side and he died from a cerebral embolism and heart disease as far as memory serves... Would he have been listed as war dead just because he was a soldier in wartime?
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Re-reading that... So he would have enlisted before 1885? Is that a definite cut off point for the service number given?
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The CWGC lists every casualty whose death was even remotely attributable to war service; this includes those who were killed in action, died of wounds, died of disease and those who died on active service. The example in question is not unusual; I have recently researched a casualty who died of cardiac disease dueing WW1 whilst serving with the marines. Although he was initially omitted from CWGC records, more recently his case was presented to them and he can now be found on the CWGC website.
The type of service number we are discussing was not introduced until 1885; prior to this date marines did have service numbers, but they were not unique and had to be used in conjunction with a company number. In fact the latter was more useful when identifying individuals, so it was more common to see individuals referred to as:
Private A.N. Other 14th Coy. RMLI
When the new numbers with a divisional prefix were introduced, all men currently serving were re-numbered. I've rechecked my notes and based on this number I'm fairly confident that he enlisted prior to 1885.
Rgds,
Alex.
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Hi Ayashi
Welcome to the Forum. My GGGF also served in the Royal Marines, from 1855 to 1876. He was promoted to Corporal only six months before he retired – I presume to give him a bigger pension – so your GGGF did very well. In my GGGF’s time they did not have Lance Corporal, so the rank must have been introduced later. I found his records about ten years ago in Kew and was able to get A2 copies in glorious colour. As they were trying out a new colour copying service, staff at Kew took an extra copy and pinned it to the wall of the copying room as a sample for years later. They probably took it down when they let visitors take their own photographs. His name was James Plummer if anyone remembers it.
Anyway, it will be RMLI. There was also the Royal Marine Artillery. I think they finally combined in the 1920s. At some time in the 19th Century they were called Red Marines (RMLI) and Blue Marines (RMA) from the colours of their tunics. Here is a link to the online guide at TNA - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/marines/step2.htm. Knowing that he was in Plymouth will help as finding his Division is half the battle. But you will need to visit Kew or employ a researcher.
In the 1901 census, have you seen his youngest daughter over the page, and also the visitor?
Ken
Hi Ken,
I would be really interested to here more about James Plummer. Perhaps you would humour me and post a brief biography?
Rgds,
Alex.
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That is brilliant, thank you! So he must have moved to Plymouth between 1881 and 1885. That narrows it down somewhat... :D
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Hi Ayashi,
Theophilus Jones grave is well known to me I don't know if you have seen it
John
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Some more
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Thank you very much :) Yes, a rootschatter found me the grave last year, but I'll save those photos, thanks you :D It's amazing and kinda sad how that grave is in such good condition and the graves around it are so run down...
Do you have a particular link to Theophilus and Elizabeth or do you intimately know the graveyard? I believe I may have some other relatives in that area who might have been buried there.
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Hi Ayashi,
I took pictures of the grave for the Royal Marines Historical Society of which I'm a member and remembered his name Theophilus Jones I have no link to him.
John
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Oh! Do you know anything else about him? :o
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Hi Ayashi,
No sorry only what is on the Commonwealth War Graves site and if you don't have it you can download his service papers online from the National Archives.
John
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Oh ok, thank you :D
Unfortunately I can't pay for online things but I did find the record, now to steal someone's credit card.... ;)
~ Edit, got them now! MADE MY DAY!!! *bounces off walls*