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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: GRWL on Sunday 20 January 08 11:23 GMT (UK)
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TRYING TO TRACE THE PARENTS OF BOTH =WILLIAM WILLIAMS b SALOP 1831 AND HIS WIFE HARRIETT ? b SALOP 1833.WHO HAD 4 CHILDREN ANNIE,HENRIETTA, JULIA, AND MINNIE.AND ANY OTHER ANCESTORS, THANKS FOR ANY HELP.
GRWL.
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Hi
You don't say where you got the information. Is this them in 1871:
1871
High Street, Shifnal, Shropshire
RG10/2748 Folio 77 Page 16
William Williams, 40, Tin plate worker, b. Murton or Nurton (?)
Harriett, 38, b. Shifnal
William, 13, b. Shifnal
Julia, 9, b. Shifnal
Ann,6, b. Shifnal
Maria, 3, b. Shifnal
William's place of birth is difficult to read - I'll try to check it out.
Gadget
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Hi again
On the 1881 he is down as being born Muckston. I think this is Mucklestone/ Muxton
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SAL/Mucklestone/index.html
1881 Census ref - RG11/2634 Folio 63 page 22
I'll give you the full details if these are your family.
Gadget
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Looking at the names you mentioned, I do think they are your family and I see no other with such a good match:
1881
High Street, Shifnal, Shropshire
(shop)
RG11/2634 Folio 63 page 22
William Williams, 49, Brazier, b. Muckston
Harriett, 48, b. Shifnal
William, 23, Brazier, b. Shifnal
Ann,17, gen servant, b. Shifnal
Minnie, 15, b. Shifnal
Thomas, grandson, 2, b. Shifnal
Gadget
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A possible marriage registration for them:
William Willaims, Shifnal, June Quater, 1854, vol 6a Page 1130
on the same page is a Harriet Hollinshed
You can check that this is her correct surname on Julia's birth cert:
Julia Williams, June Quarter, 1861, Shifnal, Vol 6a, Page 587
If you get the marriage cert, it will give you William and Harriet's fathers' names and occupation.
Gadget :)
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Baptism of Harriet Ann Hollingshead, Shifnal on the IGI
19 May 1834. Partents - Matthew Hollingshead and Jane
Gadget
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I can't locate a birth/bpt. for William at the moment. Here they are on the 1861. It looks as if they are on the same house:
High Street, Shifnal
RG9/1854 Folio 75 Page 10
William, 30, tinman
Harriet, 26
Harriet, 7
Henrietta, 6
William, 3
All down as born Shifnal
I'll see if there's a William, b. Shifnal :-\
Gadget
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This looks like William on the 1851 - but yet another birth place.
Market Place, Shifnal
HO107/1987 Folio 389 Page 49
William Tomlinson, 50, Brazier, b. Stafford
Sarah, 45, b. Much Wenlock
Ann Clayton, m in l, wid, 73, b. ? Atchham
Mary Ann ?, niece, 14, b. Sheriffhales
William Williams, journeyman, 21, tin plate worker , b. Lillieshall
Ann ?, servant, 17, servant, b. Sheriffhales
Note - all the places mentioned for William's birth are reasonably close together.
Gadget
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There is a baptism of a possible William in Lillieshall:
25 Oct 1829, Lillieshall
Parents - Richard Williams and Ann
As this is a fairly common name and he gives a variety of birthplaces, it would be best to get the marriage cert that I gave you the reference to. This will give father's name.
Regards
Gadget
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SORRY HAVEN`T REPLIED SOONER-HAD CAR TROUBLE-FIXED NOW.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS,WILLIAM WAS BORN IN SHIFNAL ACCORDING TO FAMILY MEMBERS !!
GRWL.
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Well, is this the family ???
Also, how did your family members find this and do they have any other information that would help?
Gadget
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Info was from my wifes mother who died some years ago,so no help now !
GRWL.
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It does look like the correct family on the censuses though. Just that William seemed to have problems about his birthplace - not all that unusual though. They liked to keep us on our toes :)
I'll see if I can find anything else for you.
Gadget
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Only William Williams that I can find in Shifnal on the 1841 around the correct age is this one:
Lime Kiln Bank, Shifnal
HO107/909 Book 10, Folio 25 Page 6
Ralph Pointon, 45-49, ag Lab
Elizabeth, 35-39
John, 20-24, collier
Joseph, 15-19, collier
Ellen, 13
Henry, ? 1,
Richard Williams, 12
William Williams, 8
All born Shropshire
Gadget
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Looking at the names you mentioned, I do think they are your family and I see no other with such a good match:
1881
High Street, Shifnal, Shropshire
(shop)
RG11/2634 Folio 63 page 22
William Williams, 49, Brazier, b. Muckston
Harriett, 48, b. Shifnal
William, 23, Brazier, b. Shifnal
Ann,17, gen servant, b. Shifnal
Minnie, 15, b. Shifnal
Thomas, grandson, 2, b. Shifnal
Gadget
Hi,
Annie Williams b1865, married Alec Titley?, they had a child named Minnie after her aunt. Minnie married someone named Doody (I don't know if this is his surname or a nickname). Unfortunatley I don't have any dates for Minnie.
I would be grateful of any help with this.
DSC
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Hi DSC
Could you give some approx. dates for Annie's marriage to Alec and do you have them on any census?
Regards
Gadget
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Hi,
Sorry I don't have any dates, only Annie was born in 1865. Not a lot to go on, only word of mouth. ???
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So this might not be your Annie then.
I think if I were you, I'd follow up her daughter, Minnie - marriage, birth, etc. and then try finding them on the censuses so that you could locate an approx date of marriage for Annie and Alec.
Do you have an approx date of birth for Minnie?
Gadget
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No dates for Minnie at all.
But this Annie matches everything I have, her parents were William and Harriet, married 1854, had 5 children - Julia b1862, Minnie b1868, Henrietta b1855, Annie b1865 and William b1858.
Annie b1865 married Alec Titley? Sorry no dates.
They had a daughter Minnie, this is where I have come stuck, as I don't have any dates. Family remember her been named Minnie Berry, so she must have married ? Berry.
Her aunt Minnie b1868 married someone named Doody (don't know if it was his surname or a nickname), I don't have any dates for them either.
I'm at a loss. ???
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I'll have a look later for the Doddy one and take it from there. Can you confirm Minnie's maiden surname, please - got to fly to the dentist's now :(
Gadget
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Hi,
Minnie's maiden name was Williams.
Thanks. DSC
Good luck at the dentist!
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Annie b1865 married Alec Titley? Sorry no dates.
They had a daughter Minnie
Minnie's maiden name was Williams.
Hi again
So does this mean that Minnie was born before they were married? Or are we talking about Aunt Milly - m. Dodd(y)
Sorry to ask these questions but it helps to know as much as possible before I start searching. Have you got any rough idea of where and when Annie and Alec married and roughly when Minnie (their daughter) was born?
Regards
Gadget
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No Titley's that I can see on the 1891 and I searched on first name only.
The best match that I have on the 1891 for Annie Williams, b. 1865 is this:
RG12/3003 Folio 115 Page 12
22 Priory Road, Wavertree, Lancs
George Roberts, 62, Gentleman, b. Liverpool
Mary, wife, 63, b. Ulveston
George Alexander, son, single, 31, stationer, b. Liverpool
Annie Williams, servant, single, 26, general domestic servant, b. Shropshire
Jane Vale, servant, single 16, general domestic servant, b. Staffordshire
I shall continue with my search!
Gadget
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Now this one looks interesting:
1901
RG13/2828 Folio 49 Page 13
Royland Place/Broad Street, Birmingham - Ladywood
Cornelius Habgood, 38, Hotel Porter, b. Wilstshire, Leigh
Julia, wife, 39, b.Shifnal
Sidney, son, 10, b. Birmingham
Violet A, dau, 7, b. Birmingham
George, son, 1, b. Birmingham
Minnie W (then a do), sister in law, single, 32, Ealing House Waitress, b. Shifnal
Now as Minnie was unmarried she was most likely to be Julia's sister so:
we have a marriage on FreeBMD:
Sept quarter, 1888, Birmingham, vol 6d page 213
Cornelius Habgood and on the same page is, you've guessed it:
Julia Williams
So this is Minnie in 1901, a waitress and single aged 32, wrongly entered on the census form.
Gadget
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June Quarter, 1906, Birmingham, vol 6d Page 33
Charles Doody and Minnie Williams on the same page.
:)
Gadget
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Annie b1865 married Alec Titley? Sorry no dates.
They had a daughter Minnie
Minnie's maiden name was Williams.
Hi again
So does this mean that Minnie was born before they were married? Or are we talking about Aunt Milly - m. Dodd(y)
Sorry to ask these questions but it helps to know as much as possible before I start searching. Have you got any rough idea of where and when Annie and Alec married and roughly when Minnie (their daughter) was born?
Regards
Gadget
Hi,
Sorry Gadget, I had got confused with the 2 Minnie's! ??? :)
I should have written Minnie Titley (not Williams), she was the daughter of Annie (nee Williams) and Alec Titley, I don't have any dates to go on only Annie b1865, no marriage date and no birth date for Minnie. But Minnie was known to family as Minnie Berry in later life, so perhaps she married someone called Berry.
Thanks for all your hard work, sorry to have confused you.
Cornelius Habgood and Julia were my Great grandparents. They had 6 children my Gran been the youngest, but she would not talk about her family, so I don't know if I have any living relatives from this side. So anything you could find would be very grateful.
Regards DSC
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Hi Gadget==
Many thanks for all the effort you have put into this project-great stuff.
GRWL.
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Thanks GRWL
I'm a bit stuck on the Annie/Titley line though :-\
Gadget
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DSC ~
Do you have a date for Minnie Berry's death? I could maybe work back from there.
Gadget :)
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Hi,
Minnie Berry died between 1990 & 1996.
I have found out that she worked at a place called Titley Hall/Court in Herefordshire.
Regards DSC :)
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Hi
None of the deaths in that period are Herefordshire - any idea where she died?
Gadget :)
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Hi Gadget=
Place of death unknown,but my mother in-law received details about her Will from an office in KINGTON-Herefordshire if that is of any help ?.
GRWL.
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Did it give her full name?
Are you two the same person - I'm getting confuseeeee ed :)
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Hi Gadget,
No we are not the same person, but we are related. :)
Regards DSC
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Minnie Berry died in Kington in Herefordshire, some of the details you seek may be on her death certificate.
Perhaps if you contact the Registrar there, they will be able to provide a copy of the death certificate.
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Another member of the family?
What was the date of her death, EBN
- it would help to pin it down.
Regards
Gadget
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Right
I've found her death
It was November 1997, Kington (note - not 1990-96)
Here name was Minnie Isabella and she was born 3rd Sept 1901
Ref - District 5181 Reg No 17D Entry No 19 Dor 1197
I think this is enough to get her death cert.
Regards
Gadget
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Born Minnie Isabella Berry, so ? unmaried, or reverted to maiden name.
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so where did the Titley/Tetley come from ::)
Gadget
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There are a number of Berrys [ 11 ] on the 1901 census for Titley in Herefordshire, including Annie aged 36 born Shifnal.
DSC might be better asking the Register Office for her birth certificate and to see if there were any other siblings.
Gadget - do you have the full 1901 census as I only have a basic index, then we could work out who the Berry family was and how they were related to each otehr and DSC's family.
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That looks a good possiblility - Berrys from Titley ;D ;D ;D
Have you got the ref for the 1901?
Gadget
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RG13/2500-1 30B and 30A
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Thanks - found it with just Annie:
Kington
RG13/2500 Folio 30 Page 2
William A Berry, 30, joiner b. Herefordshire ? (can't read it well enough)
Annie Berry, 36, b. Shifnal
They must have not been married long - will now check the BMD index :)
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I can only see 2 William Berry marriages in that area one in 1865 and one to an Annie Nash in 1911 ????
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Sept Q, 1900, Shifnal Vol 6a Page 1295
William Alexander Berry
Annie Williams
Gadget :)
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It didn't come up under William so i searched under Alexander ::) ::) ::)
Strange search engine ;D
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WIlliam Berry born Kington Herefordshire in September 1870
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So it could have been Alec Berry from Titley, muddled as passed down the generations.
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Sounds very like it, EBN :D
and Minnie never married :-\
Gadget :)
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DSC needs to get the B Cert and ask Registrar to check to see if there were any siblings if she wants to trace the family to more recent times
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Given that Annie was 36/7 when Minnie was born, i wouldn't have thought that there would be too many more siblings.
it maybe work a search for Berry births 1901-1915 in Kington :)
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Free BMD births showing for Kington:
Dec, 1901 - Minnie Isabella
Sept 1902 - Ronald John
Sept, 1906 - Edward
There was another Berry family - mother's name Frost (1913 birth)
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Goodness me, Gadget and EBN you have been very busy since I was last on rootschat.
Thank you both for all your hard work. :)
I don't know how I got the name Alec Titley, obviously I was told by family at some time. ??? ::)
Do you think Ronald b1902 and Edward b1906 were Minnie's siblings?
Regards DSC
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Hi DSC :)
The only real way to find out about the parentage of Ronald and Edward is to get their birth certs :-\
The full GRO Refs are:
Ronald John Berry, Kington, Sept Quarter 1902, vol 6a Page 565
Edward Berry, Kington, Sept Quarter 1906, vol 6a Page 552
Further, it might be worth trying to find the local newspapers for around the time of Minnie's death to see if there were any obituaries. Also, I believe Minnie's will was mentioned in an earlier message on this thread. It might be worth checking that also, if it has not already been checked.
Regards
Gadget
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Chat up Registrar ;) and ask if the parents are Alec and Annie before requesting any Certificates.
They might also hold death certificates, and as the name is a bit unusual it would not be too much of a task to check the Indexes.
Registars are nice people and willing to help. ;D
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EBN,
I have met one Registrar who I found to be very helpful ;) :) ;D
I wonder if she might have the answers? ;D
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My cousin is married to a Registrar and she is ever so nice.
I also had to deal with many Registrars when doing a big project a while ago and found them really helpful :)
Gadget
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I am sure DSC will find it like that, they can be just like your favourite Auntie !
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So EBN - are you a registrar or is it your favourite aunt ;D ;D ;D
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EBN is a registrar and of course my favourite Auntie! ;D :)