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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: nzmike on Monday 21 January 08 12:32 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
This is my first post and I'm pretty new to the whole genealogy thing so please be gentle with me! ;-)
I am trying to track family and forebears of my great-grandfather James Christie who was born in Arbroath on 20-Feb-1858 and died on 23-July-1911, also in Arbroath. He married one Barbara Finlayson on 08-Nov-1978 and divorced her in 1909 for some reason I have not yet been able to find out. (Links to images of his birth and death cert are at the bottom of this post.)
Basically I would like to know if he had any siblings or other children apart from 2 sons - yet another James Christie and my grandfather George Johnstone Christie (b. 05-Dec-1884 at 38 Mary St, Arbroath, d. 05-Mar-1947 in Dunedin, NZ). In particular I am trying to find his father, also a James Christie, who had my great-grandfather out of wedlock with one Matilda Mahon(e). They were both flax mill workers (not surprisingly all my Christie relatives seemed to work 'down the mill') and I know in 1858 he was living in Gravesend, Arbroath when my great-grandfather was born.
My problem is that I can't nail down any firm details as there were so many James Christie's in Angus in those days so if anyone can help I would really appreciate it. I have tried ScotlandsPeople and FindMyPast but there are just so many James Christie's and none of really them fit any dates I have. I have googled and looked up every record library, registrar and website I can find with no real luck so I am hoping someone in Scotland or the UK may be help me (I am a Kiwi but live in Sydney at present).
I think the image (see link below) of the 1861 census could be him as he has a son James Christie, age 2, which could be my great-grandfather as the age would fit given he was born in 1858. This would mean that he was married with 4 or 5 other children when he (perhaps) had a fling with Matilda Mahon(e) and had my great-grandfather then raised him as part of the family - would love to be able to confirm that though!
Anyway, if I haven't completely confused everyone, I'd certainly appreciate any help finding out more about any of the James Christie's mentioned above - or else any other good advice or web links etc that might help really nail down some more concrete info.
Cheers,
Mike
1861 Census: http://www.41south.com/familyresearch/Census1861_James_Christie.gif
(Can anyone tell what all the names under the Christie entry are as well the street name?)
Birth Cert of my great-grandfather James Christie:
http://www.41south.com/familyresearch/BirthCert_James-Christie_20-02-1858.gif
Death Cert of same:
http://www.41south.com/familyresearch/DeathCert_JamesChristie_23-07-1911.gif
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hi mike
welcome to rootschat :)
1881 census 40 howard st arbroath
james christie 23 flax mill overseer
barbara christie 22 wife
john F christie 1 son
all born arbroath (from ancestry)
i think this is them , johns middle name being f(finlayson ?)and
everything else lines up
just to recap - i take it you have you grandfathers(george) death cert. which
gives you james and barbara , and from your great grandfathers death
cert you have barbara(wife) father(james) but no mother
how did you get matilda mahon ?
was it from james marriage cert ?
yours
ev
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hi mike
from scotlandspeople
there is a barbara finlayson or christie who died 1932 arbroath angus
born 1859
this might be your great grandmother
IGI has a submitted entry for barbara findlayson born 13th august 1858
arbroath angus parents john findlayson mother mary mitchell
now -
1891 census 22 hayswell road arbroath
john findlayson 61 blacksmith
mary findlayson 70(wife)
jessie findlayson 30(daughter) canvas weaver
john christie 11(grandson)
james christie 9(grandson)
no sign of parents james and barbara or son george on 1891
ev
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Hello Mike - welcome to rootschat.
Have you used the website www.familysearch.org.
Children of James Christie and Matilda Mahan/Mahon are:
James Christie or Mahon b.20 Feb 1858 (your gt grandfather)
Florence Christie - or Mahan b. 11 Dec 1864 in Arbroath.
Both 'extracted' entries.
You'd need to get a copy of Florences birth entry on SP to confirm that she's 'yours'.
Good luck. Regards, Steve :O)
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Hello again Mike,
The 1861 census is something else. Been on Genuki to confirm the parish in case you didn't have that info
Parish of St Vigeans, Parish of Aberbrothock, Burgh of Arbroath.
No on schedule - obviously 160.
8 ????????????????????
Where Born
James Christie Head M 44 Flax dresser? Forfarshire/St Vigeans
May/Mary Christie Wife M 38 Forfarshire/St Vigeans
??? Christie Daur 14 Flax factory Worker F/shire Arbroath
Isobel Christie Daur 11 Flax factory Worker F/shire Arbroath
May/ Mary Ann Christie Daur 9 Scholar F/shire Dundee
Robert Christie Son 6 Scholar F/shire Arbroath
James Christie Son 2 F/shire Arbroath
Please feel free to interpret differently :O)
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hi all
the address is 8 doigs vennel and the daughter is agnes(i think)
ev
ps think this could be the family of james christie and mary fettes
isabel , agnes , robert , and james just about line up on IGI :(
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I'd agree with the Agnes ev. Must admit I never saw the G which curls in front of the 'I' in Isobel.
Have also attached a link to a site which Mike may not have been to?
http://www.angus.gov.uk/history/history.htm
Away to watch telly for an hour.
:O)
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steve
try this site
http://www.arbroathtimeline.moonfruit.com/
good for old arbroath street names
there is a doigs vennel
the site also has other info. on arbroath well worth a look
ev
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Hey, thanks so much ev and Steve - I got up this morning and reloaded the page not really expecting any replies so soon and instead I get all this fantastic new info - really appreciate the help.
Right now I have a day's work to do :-( before I look at it all but I will get back to it later today and try and sort out all this new information - which will no doubt just pose another whole set of questions I'll have to find answers to. (I guess that's why we do it though.)
One other quick Q though - it seems Barbara Finlayson (the one married to my g.g.f James, b. in 1878) was admitted to the Dundee Salvation Army Home sometime around 1909 after my g.g.f divorced her. So my 2 Q's are: what is the best way to get divorce records (including reason for divorce) and any is there way for me to see why see was admitted to the Sallies home and for how long? (I emailed the Salvation Army for Northern Scotland asking about historic records but got no reply unfortunately.) I am assuming my g.g.f kicked her out for some reason and she had nowhere else to go for a while because she died in 1932 back in Arbroath (22 Smithy Croft).... would love to get a head's up on this bit of family intrigue!
Not long after this (in 1910 I think) my g.f George Johnstone Christie left Scotland for New Zealand but I'm having a terrible job finding when exactly he came out or on what ship as I don't believe he would have needed a passport (I read that before 1914 one wasn't required for British Citizens) and the passenger lists I've found for that period normally have little or no real passenger info (like "Mr Christie, Scotland" et al).
Also, what site do you recommend as the master source of British info? Is it ancestry.co.uk or do you need to subscribe to a few (such as Scotlands People and FindMyPast) as well. I haven't used Ancestry in anger yet but it sounds like I might be missing lots of good info - I was assuming everything I needed for Scotland would be on SP - I guess that is incorrect.
Anyway, one thing at a time - I need to digest what you have given me first and then I'll post here again.
Cheers,
Mike
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I expect you have the list of George Christie's listed in the Find My Past index but if not:-
George Christie 25 1895 London to New Zealand
" " 20 1906 Liverpool to Port Chalmers
" " - 1909 London to Wellington
" " - 1909 Liverpool to Wellington
" " 27 1926 Liverpool to Auckland
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Thanks - the list I have from various FindMyPast searches is like this:
CHRISTIE G M 1910 London New Zealand Wellington
CHRISTIE Geo 25 M 1895 London New Zealand New Zealand
CHRISTIE Geo 20 M 1906 Liverpool New Zealand Port Chalmers
CHRISTIE Geo M 1909 Liverpool New Zealand Wellington
CHRISTIE Geo M 1909 London New Zealand Wellington
CHRISTIE Geo 27 M 1926 Liverpool New Zealand Auckland
The ones I need to look at (haven't yet but will later) is the one for 1910 and the two for 1909. The problem is that even so it could have been any one of the three - what I'm finding difficult is to link any one of them with the George Christie from Arbroath.
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Ok, I've had a chance to digest the info given by ev and Steve....
First, ev, thanks for the 1881 & 1891 census info.... I agree everything fits so it really has to be them in both cases. I didn't previously know about John F Christie or Florence so they are totally new people in my family tree. Did you got this info from Ancestry.co.uk?
Also ev, when you say "The 1861 census is something else" what do you mean? I think it looks possible to be the same family as James (the son) is 2 years of age which would mean he could have been born in 1858 and not yet turned 3 when the census was done. Also, from the marriage certificate of James Christie and Barbara Finlayson in 1878, it shows his mother's maiden name to indeed be "Fettes" so I think it is most likely to be the same family. If you don't think it's the same family what makes you think that? (i.e: what have I missed?!)
Sorry if I confused you re Barbara Christie... there are so many James Christie's it's hard to explain it all clearly. Anyway, there was only one Barbara (nee Finlayson - note, no 'd' in the name, despite the census adding one) who was married to James, my great grandfather (and yes, she died in 1932 in Arbroath). From the same marriage certificate I can confirm that Barbara's parents were John Finlayson and Mary Mitchell.
If you look at the link I posted to my g.g.f James Christie's birth cert in my first post you will see his mother is listed as Matilda Mahon and the father is also James Christie (therefore my great great grandfather). It is this man I suspected was in fact already married (to Mary Fettes it would now seem) with children and obviously had a fling with our Miss Mahon who most likely worked at the same mill.
So I guess now I can do a search on ScotlandsPeople or the IGI etc for a James Christie born around 1817... am assuming it was in Arbroath since but naturally he could have come from anywhere.
Thanks also for the 1891 census info... I am guessing the person doing the census simply assumed the Finlaysons name had a 'd' in it - interesting to note that the two Christie grandsons lived with them.... Very interesting that neither James, Brabara or George Christie are in it. I can't help wondering if they went out to NZ or somewhere else to build a new life leaving the two youngest sons with their grandparents until they could afford to send for them. Although given they both died in Arbroath I guess that seems unlikely... perhaps they were just so poor they needed help to clothe, house and feed the 2 younger sons James and John. Or perhaps Barbara was ill or just not a good mother, hence my g.g.f divorcing her around 1909.
All questions which I doubt I'll ever get a definitive answer to.
Another Q - for people like this who were very obviously working class and probably very poor would they have been likely to have had headstones when they died? If so, does anyone know any way of finding where they might be buried? (I guess I'd need to write to Angus Council for that info as I've not found it online anywhere.)
Thanks also for the two websites - I had previosuly stumbled across them and http://www.arbroathtimeline.moonfruit.com/ is very, very useful (shame about the annoying music but you can't have everything!). The Angus council site I will keep my eye on as it appears so far not much is available online.... later this year there will be more according to them.
The problem with doing this is i could ask a million questions... but I'd be here night and end up doing a Tolstoy!
Many thanks again for the help.... it's allowed me to make a lot of headway in just one day!
Mike
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hi mike
it was steve who said "the 1861 census was something else"
james and barbara marriage cert lists mary fettes as his mother
there is a son born to james christie and mary fettes on the IGI
13th december 1857 arbroath angus
although james is listed as 2 on the census and he should be 3
what makes you think that this isn't your james ?
there is only one death listed on scotlandspeople between 1857 and 1861 for a james christie - born 1858 died 1858 arbroath angus
so if it's not james and mary's son then that would lead me to think that
this james is your man , unless i'm missing something ???
i subscribe to ancestry for census returns to try and pin people down
then buy credits on scotlandspeople to obtain certificates
i don't think the salvation army would keep records
people using their services could give a false name and if homeless
could be anybody
had a look at the national archives of scotland for a divorce but nothing
on line , but there are divorces listed so may be they could help
a james christie married mary fettes 14th november 1846 st. vigeans
(arbroath) angus
ev
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Apologies for the confusion - by 'something else' on the 1661 census - I meant the status of the handwriting. :O) Steve
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ev, sorry about the mis-quote... it was pretty late when I wrote it. (But I do agree with you Steve, the handwriting is almost illegible!)
I think I must have confused you again with my War & Peace post.... I was actually agreeing with you that it must be the James Christie, married to Mary Fettes, who is my great great grandfather. And now I know that for sure as I can trace back the whole lineage via BD&M certificates from him down to myself. (Now I have try to find his marriage and birth certs and start the search for another generation back - which will no doubt involve more fun and games with mulitple James Christie's!)
So I guess the other James Christie who had a son of the same name with Matilda Mahon was the wrong one - but the dates and other stuff seemed correct so I assumed it was him. (Now I can admit I'm quietly relived my great grandfather wasn't illegitimate after all!)
It is odd that the son James Christie is listed as being 2 as he certainly would have been 3 in 1861... perhaps his father had had one dram too many when the census-taker came to the door that night or he mis-heard the age - sadly, we'll never know.
Thanks again for the help - it helps having another 2 or 3 pairs of eyes looking at this, especially given how confusing the whole James Christie situation is and between you, you've helped me work through a total dead end I had with my g.g.f.
Anyone have any opinions re my questions about these sort of working class, probably very poor, people having headstones and/or how to find where they might be buried?
Cheers,
Mike
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Hi hope I will be able to be of help. Barbara Finlayson is on my family tree as are the Fettes family. I actually have family in Australia who are in the salvation army so I'll see what I can do about getting information from them. I'll check with our Finlayson records to see if I can get some more information about Barbara for you. You can get access to burial records for Arbroath unfortunately through a paying website that gives all burials with plots and it includes still births. You are assumming he divorced her perhaps it was desertion and as she went to the salvation army I would say drink could be the cause. I have a Barbara who inherited a lot of money when her brother and sister-in-law died and the will stipulates the money was for her and her children not the husband.
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Hi Carrie,
I hope you are are still around on RootsChat! I am not sure why I missed your reply back in 2012 but I was just looking back through some old posts on the site and saw it.
I am very interested in the Barbara you have in your tree that inherited money and stipulated in her will that no money went to her husband - do you have any more info on her you can share with me? Specifically, birth/marriage/death dates (or details) and whether she was married to James Christie. Also, if it is the same person is there any chance I could get a copy at the will (assuming you have it in an electronic form)?
The fact Barbara ended up in a Sallies home is still one of the mysteries of my family I haven't cleared up but perhaps you were right that her husband was abusive or inadequate due to alcohol... very sad if it's true but I know that side of my family were pretty hard working class people. My mother told me that my father and his father never talked about their family so one would have to assume there were some secrets and/or some shame there.
And just out of interest, since we're related very distantly, where do you fit into the Fettes/Finlayson family?
Cheers,
Mike
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Just a little word of caution. Don't read more into this than the essentials.
First, as I read Carrie's post, it wasn't Barbara's will that stipulated that the money was for her and not for her husband's use. It was the will of her brother and sister-in-law.
Under Scots Law a surviving spouse is entitled to one-third of the deceased spouse's moveable estate, so Barbara could not have excluded her husband even if she had wanted to.
Secondly, it is absolutely standard practice for someone making a will leaving money to a female to exclude her husband's jus mariti, in other words to specify that the legacy is for her use only, not his.
So unless you have definite evidence to suggest that Barbara's husband was unsatisfactory, you cannot deduce this from what Carrie said about her brother's will. If he divorced her, it might even be the other way round.
You should be able to get full details of the divorce proceedings from the National Records of Scotland www.nas.gov.uk
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Just a little word of caution. Don't read more into this than the essentials.
First, as I read Carrie's post, it wasn't Barbara's will that stipulated that the money was for her and not for her husband's use. It was the will of her brother and sister-in-law.
Thanks for that - I went back and read the bit about the will more carefully and you were absolutely right, seems I got a little ahead of myself.
I'd still be interested to hear from Carrie re which Barbara it is and how/where she fits in with my lot (Christie's) but I do thank you for your extra info and good advice.
I've searched the NAS site multiple times until I'm blue in the face and I can't find anything at all for any combination of keywords "james christie barbara finlayson divorce". I've searched all the different ways I can think of with no luck so far - you're welcome to have to go if you think I'm missing something!
Cheers,
Mike
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Hi Mike,
I too have very elusive Christies one in particular who has lead me a right merry dance. I'm curious how did you discover George Johnstone Christie is the one who left Arboath for NZ? I can't find a George in Arbroath who is not with the 'correct' parents on both the 91 and 1901 census. Therefore I can't find a 'spare' George Christie to send to NZ - perhaps you've found him in 91 and 1901 and it's my poor searching skills? Like you said so many Christies it's very difficult to get hold of the correct one. I'm presuming on his NZ death cert both his parents are listed - sorry not familiar with NZ certs. The only George 'J' Christie I can find of about the right age is living in Dundee with parents who were both originally from Arbroath but he's not a James and she's not a Barbara!
Maybe the Christies are just just meant to try us...
Jen
Edit - this would be the George Johnstone/Johnson Christie who marries Euphemia Hedrick in 1915 in NZ?
If so I post this with extreme caution
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jamgilbert/Descendant%20Trees/christie.pdf
You should look at the 1901 census entry mentioned above in conjunction with the pdf..you might see a missing boy?
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Don't like niggles....
1912 leaving from Liverpool for Australia on the White Star line:
Mr Geo J Christie age 28 'chaffeur'
Mr Andrew Christie age 22 (either the same occupation or nothing as can't see the ditto marks!)
These ages match with the children of the couple living in Dundee.
Jen
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Edit - this would be the George Johnstone/Johnson Christie who marries Euphemia Hedrick in 1915 in NZ?
If so I post this with extreme caution
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jamgilbert/Descendant%20Trees/christie.pdf
You should look at the 1901 census entry mentioned above in conjunction with the pdf..you might see a missing boy?
Jen, yes that's the correct one, he did marry Euphemia Hedrick.
When you say you posted that PDF with extreme caution and that there might another missing boy can you please explain what you mean? The PDF looks exactly like what I have for my Christies (at the far right) and I'm not sure what you mean re the 1901 census.... but too cryptic for me sorry!!!
In terms of when GJ went to NZ I believe it could have been as early as 1905 as on his death cert it says he had been in NZ 42 years (old NZ death certs always had a "Number of Years in NZ" column). Now, these aren't always accurate as often it would have been the next of kin guessing but his marriage cert also backs this up. However, his burial record (http://www.dunedin.govt.nz/facilities/cemeteries/cemeteries_search?recordid=19546&type=Burial) says he was in NZ 36 years meaning 1911/1912 could be about right. I've never found any actual proof of when he came to NZ - there are plenty of passenger lists with "G Christie" or "Mr Christie" or any other combination but nothing I can really nail down as a certainty unfortunately.
Also if he did come out in 1912 who was the Andrew? I know he had a cousin called Andrew but he was born in 1898 (according to the PDF you posted) so he would have been only 14 in 1912... pretty sure that GJ and Andrew are different people altogether but again, who knows?!
One other person I'm interested in is the James Christie who was George Johnston Christie's brother (b. 1881)... the PDF you posted has his death as 1911 but I know he was still alive, and living in Dundee, as his name & address is on his father's death certificate as the witness. Do you have any other information on him at all? I have searched Scotlands People and I can't find a James Christie who was born in Arbroath in 1881 and died in 1911. On the 1901 census there is a James Christie, aged 20 and born in Arbroath, listed as an Able Seaman on the SS Glenfyne - so it's possible he was a sailor and possibly died at sea in 1911 but for me that one is still a mystery as well since I can find no record of his dying in 1911 that fits with anything else.
Cheers,
Mike
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Hi Mike,
To make sense of all this I need to know if you have had sight of GJC's death certificate and that James and Barbara are listed as his parents.
Jen
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To make sense of all this I need to know if you have had sight of GJC's death certificate and that James and Barbara are listed as his parents.
Jen,
Yes, I have the certificate (in paper form) and it definitely lists James and Barbara (including her maiden name of Finlayson) as the parents.
If you want to see it I can try to scan it and upload the pages to my website.
Cheers,
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Extreme caution on the PDF because I just found it on the web - it's unattributed - it could have been a complete work of fiction for all I knew. Well if those two are his parents no wiggle room then!
I take it you know that Robert's son was also called George Johnston Christie hence my over enthusiasm for the travelling pair of brothers who are showing older than they should be but with the correct age difference of six years.
What is weird about this family is that the rest seem to be relatively easy to find. Old John and Mary are sitting there on the 91 census along with widowed daughter Agnes and grandson James. In 1901 Robert is up in Dundee carrying on that weird Christie naming pattern but no sign of the James and Barbara troupe from 81 except for the two children with the Finlayson's in 91.
James Christie (Flax Dresser) and Matilda Mahon are still living together in 71 and 81 while James Christie (Flax Dresser) and Mary Fettes are also still living together in 71 and 81. :o It would be easier if we were trying to find James Smiths!
Jen
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Confused - you will be! The James Christie who is living with Matilda in 71 and 81 shows born 1822 Inverkeillor. On the 61 census living at Keptie Street, St Vigeans, Arbroath is a James Christie born 1822 Inverkeillor living with his widowed mom - Elizabeth Fettes age 66 born Kingoldrum. I was half expecting one of the boarder to be called Kevin Bacon!
Jen
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> Extreme caution on the PDF because I just found it on the web - it's unattributed - it could have been a complete work of fiction for all I knew.
Yes, I realised later I'd also seen that before, sent to me by another person on RootChats a few years ago who also descends from the Robert Christie line. It seems pretty accurate though quite a few of my dates disagree with that one - but that's the nature of family research I guess.
>I take it you know that Robert's son was also called George Johnston Christie hence my over enthusiasm for the travelling pair of brothers who are showing older than they should be but with the correct age difference of six years.
No, I didn't know that - but I do know it's my g.f GJ Christie who came to NZ... just wish I could work out when.
> Old John and Mary are sitting there on the 91 census along with widowed daughter Agnes and grandson James.
The census info I have also shows James living with them as well though strangely I now can't find that info - can't even find John and Mary on the '91 census now for some reason.
It appears the family was fairly splintered - I'm guessing it's all related to either James being a bit of a soak or Barbara perhaps being ill or having to work to not be able to look after the two boys that ended up at her parents place. I really need to step up my efforts to get the divorce proceedings but I simply can't find them anywhere.
> In 1901 Robert is up in Dundee carrying on that weird Christie naming pattern but no sign of the James and Barbara troupe from 81 except for the two children with the Finlayson's in 91.
Yes, that is a real mystery as well... not at all sure where they disappeared off to... maybe Dundee as well?
> James Christie (Flax Dresser) and Matilda Mahon are still living together in 71 and 81 while James Christie (Flax Dresser) and Mary Fettes are also still living together in 71 and 81. :o It would be easier if we were trying to find James Smiths!
When I first started my family research I went down the whole Matilda Mahon avenue but I eventually found out (after much hair pulling and chin scratching) that she was not related - well, not to my line of Christie's anyway.... perhaps she married one of the many other James' floating around!
My two biggest headaches continue to be:
1) to find a birth date for James (i.e: GJ's father who married Mary Fettes ) - I have searched high and low on every site I can find and I simply can't find anywhere his birth was recorded... I have a feeling that just never happened. I have him being born anytime between 1817 and 1823 but no more info than that.
2) Finding out when GJ Christie came to NZ... doubt I'll ever find that one out for sure either. Of course it's possible he went via somewhere else but finding out the truth is nigh on impossible.
So going back to my earlier question, where do you fit into the whole tree?
Cheers,
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Old post on 'my' James Christie:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=670347.0
He had children born (none registered) in Scotland, London and Milwaukee. There is a whole history about the 'Dundee' Milwaukee Christies but I've never been able to connect my JC to them or find his death. I think I'm related from William Christie who married Christian Valentine in 1739 at Logie Pert but it's all a bit tenuous as my JC seemed very cautious about leaving any sort of paper trail...although he appeared to be happy leaving people behind.
Sorry James and Mary on the 81 census with widowed Agnes - can't find them in 91. For me the biggest mystery here is the sudden appearance of a 'dead' Barbara in 1932 - where had she been? And where is poor George in 91 he'd only be 7 years old.
? - on that PDF your grandfather is listed as a car mechanic - at time of death looks like he's a cellar man - do you know anything more about his occupations? Time to shop!
Jen
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Have you tried Family Search or Ancestry.com? By the way, one of my great-grandmothers was born in Arbroath, Scotland; her name was Margaret Maxwell Laird. She, her mother, and siblings arrived in the U.S. in different years, but in the 1900s, and on different ships. Some arrived in New York and others arrived in Boston.
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Well this is a bit exciting....you need to go back and look at who signed Barbara's death cert and look at the address then look here
http://www.fdca.org.uk/pdf%20files/TSReg%207501to8000.pdf
not sure what a 8.9 HP Clyno Touring Maroon is but it sounds posh for 1928!
Jen
edit:
WEDDING IN WORMIT EAST CHURCH
Beatrice Christie, only daughter of Mr and Mrs James Christie, Violetbank, Scroggieside, Wormit, to Or Douglas Currie MacGilchrist. The bridegroom is the eldest son of Col. and Mrs MacGilchrist. Calcutta, and a nephew of the late Rev. Dr MacGilchrist
17 March 1932 - Dundee Courier - Dundee, Angus, Scotland
very expensive wedding....this family jumped class - you might want to look to Calcutta and jute. I'm putting my Christies back in their box now - good luck with your searching...
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>Old post on 'my' James Christie:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=670347.0
Wow, and I thought my Christie's were tricky at times to track down.... don't envy your task!
>Sorry James and Mary on the 81 census with widowed Agnes - can't find them in 91. For me the biggest mystery here is the sudden appearance of a 'dead' Barbara in 1932 - where had she been? And where is poor George in 91 he'd only be 7 years old.
James died in 1889 and Mary in 1890 which is obviously why they weren't on the '91 census.
All I know about Barbara is that she spent some time, from 1909, at the Salvation Army in Dundee after her and James got divorced. However by the time of her death she was back in Arbroath, at 22 Smithy Croft so who knows who she was living with - perhaps John F Christie since James was in Dundee and GJ was in NZ.
No idea where GJ disappeared to during that time but I am pretty sure he had a very, very tough upbringing and wanted away from his family as soon he was old enough. As I said a few posts ago he flatly refused to talk about his family to his children until the day he died and what little my own father knew he never also discussed to my knowledge - even my Mum knows almost nothing about GJ's family and was married to my Dad for more than 40 years. I really wish now I'd asked Dad about it all but he died in 1999 and I didn't start my family research until 2008.
>on that PDF your grandfather is listed as a car mechanic - at time of death looks like he's a cellar man - do you know anything more about his occupations? Time to shop!
I suspect, given a worldwide depression, he did whatever he could. If people weren't buying cars then he may not have been able to get a mechanics job hence he became a cellarman.
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Well this is a bit exciting....you need to go back and look at who signed Barbara's death cert and look at the address then look here
I'm a car fan so I had to google that - here's a nice picture of the same car in red: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/polyrus/24344365
WEDDING IN WORMIT EAST CHURCH
Beatrice Christie, only daughter of Mr and Mrs James Christie, Violetbank, Scroggieside, Wormit, to Or Douglas Currie MacGilchrist. The bridegroom is the eldest son of Col. and Mrs MacGilchrist. Calcutta, and a nephew of the late Rev. Dr MacGilchrist
17 March 1932 - Dundee Courier - Dundee, Angus, Scotland
Hmm, interesting - many thanks for that.... I will have to get busy on Scotlands People for that one! Do you have a web link for that newspaper story at all? (I like to gather all that sort of info as I'm creating a family archive.)
EDIT: Don't worry, I found the story on FindMyPast. :-)
Cheers,
Mike
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Have you tried Family Search or Ancestry.com?
Thanks Tanya - yes, I use Family Search, Scotlands People, FindMyPast, FreeCen/FreeBMD/FreeReg and a few New Zealand ones (since that's where all my family come from in the last 2-3 generations).
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Last post on this as it's just too sad!
Article - 01 July 1907 - Dundee Courier
Russia, drink and divorce....also mention of five children but states only two alive George and James one presumes...son James seems to have come through everything OK!
Jen
PS Beatice looks the spit of my Auntie May!
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Last post on this as it's just too sad!
Article - 01 July 1907 - Dundee Courier
Russia, drink and divorce....also mention of five children but states only two alive George and James one presumes...son James seems to have come through everything OK!
Sounds intriguing! Where did you find that article? I'll try looking on FindMyPast but again, it would be really helpful if you could say where you found the article and/or include a link.
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Sorry Mike,
It was on FindMyPast - newspaper search on Barbara Finlayson. I think it's entitled 'Arbroath woman breaksdown in Russia'...I would say enjoy reading but it is very sad.
Jen
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Many thanks Jen - I found the article and sad though it is, it has cleared up a whole pile of questions.
Sounds to me like Barbara couldn't stand Russia and probably hit the bottle... no wonder as I guess she would be on her own all day with no friends or family around in an immensely foreign country. I am assuming she would have taken the 4 year old GJ with her when she followed her husband to Russia in 1888 which would explain why he disappeared from the records.
It also explains why the 2 sons were listed as living with the Finlaysons in the 1891 census.
Interesting that it lists 5 children with only 2 alive in 1907 - that means John Finlayson Christie must have died before 1907.... so far I've had no luck finding his death at all but I'll keep trying. I'm assuming the other children were infant deaths as there seems to be no signs of other children in the records.
I am definitely going to have to try and find the divorce proceedings - hunted high and low on the NAS site already but will have to try again.... call me nosy but I want to know what the other unaceptable behaviour was!
I also found a later article on FindMyPast re a "Barbara Finlayson Cathro or Ramsey" so I wonder if she remarried at least once or twice after the divorce... something else to research!
Just when you think you've hit brick walls along comes some juicy new stuff... many thanks for all your input, it's been really helpful. :-)