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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: mar1 on Friday 25 January 08 19:26 GMT (UK)
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Iam looking for direct descendents of Woodlock Smith uncle of Gypsy Smith.
Woodlock's son Owen is my great grandfather. I have no further info on Owen's sister's and brother.
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hello mar1
i have a g.great aunt who married a woodstock smith. her name was justina buckley. would this be the same as yours?
amanda
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hello again,
looking through some notes and found that sometimes she was listed as testaner/testaina. probably spelling mistakes. anyway their children were, as far as i know .... chlar (f) owen (m) hezekiah (m) matilda (f), ages 15,15,13,1 yrs, possible that eldest 2 were twins? they were at wanstead flats in 1881 census.
along side them are also bartholomew & family and cornelius & family, i believe these are woodstocks brothers
happy hunting
amanda :)
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Hello,
Thanks for that. It is nice to know that I have distant relatives on that side of the family. If you go into the site Romanygenes under the smith/lee heading you will see a photo of justina along with woodlock and his brothers/families
Mark )
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hi mark
well thanks for that. dont think i have seen it. normally i have ''hawk eye'' but obviously i must have missed it. so you think we are connected then?
a
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I have the following children for Woodlock:
Saleh Smith 1856–
Chloe Smith 1866–
Owen Smith 1866–
Hezekiah Smith 1868–
Mathilda Smith 1880–
Only census records I could find were the 1871 and 1881 and Woodlock's death registration in 1882. My husband comes down through Lavinia Smith (sister of Gypsy) so I haven't fleshed out all the other lines. I have never found any census records for James and ELizabeth Smith - Woodlock's parents despite hours and hours of searching. Has anyone had any luck with any of the family in the early censuses?
Kathy T
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hi kathy
do you know if woodstock had a sister named alice smith? as i have seen a tree on ancestry and they have a james smith and his wife elizabeth as her parents and elizabeths maiden name was o'dell. does this ring any bells? the tree was ''bowman''
amanda
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Yup that is my tree and I think we have corresponded once or twice? Alice is I believe a sister of Woodlock and she married a Josiah Smith whose parents I now believe are Joiner Buckley.
Kathy T
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hello there,
we meet again. nice to chat to you again. seems you have been busy with the bowman tree, it gets bigger every day, you must be exhausted, lol.
is that a definate with alice? it seems to make sense but i have made the mistake of ''assuming'' to often with these travelling people.
i am still working on exactly who is the father of josiah buckley, but it does eventually tally up with joiner or his brother, just have to wait a bit to confrim or deny!!! have had help from an outstanding lady called ''sharon'' who has been a great source of info and is still searching as we chat.
has my tree been of any use to you? i hope so.
amanda
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Hello
I dont know if you have seen the topic Joiner Buckley in the Travelling People section?There is some detail on the various family connection's between the Smith's, Buckley's and Lee's etc. I understand that there is a lot of this info in the Terrence Lee geneology books and also some references in Gypsy Smith's biography. Hello aa1webb we are related through Justinia Smith nee Buckley.
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hello mar1
well relative you can call me amanda :D
yes i have seen the joiner chat, think i was actually part of it a while ago. it was very interesting. also have a look at logan ? that chat has connections to us. justina is sister to my g.grandfather santalina. how are you related then.?
amanda
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Hello Amanda
Joiner Buckley and his wife are my great,great,great grandparents and from what you have written they are yours as well. Thankyou for the extra info. :)
Mark
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Woodlock Smith was known as Woodlock the Evangelist i believe. He was married to Justinia Buckley.
Woodlocks sister Alice was married to Josiah Buckley, she later married his brother Carnation (sometimes written as Ganation or Nathan) she died in 1921.
They are all in my tree. Justinia's brother Frank was my g-g-g grandad.
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Hi just reading posts and have alittle inof on Joiner Buckley from index of Buckland & Buckley names
Starts with Perun Buckley married a really dark woman most likely a LEE their son :
Joe Buckley married to a Skipper, gaji woman from Harwich
they had 4 sons : Joiner Sam Hariam Elijah
Sam Buckley was 1st husband of Seni Smith, he was transported to Jamaica
Seni Smith sister to Treli Frank Cornelius Elijah & Lomas Smith, she died 1886 at Plaistow
Joiner ( nickname Jania) 2nd husband of Seni Smith,
It says Joiner was a wire sieve maker coppersmith bell hanger & repairer of Ag Implements born sometime abt 1780
Hariam Buckley married Peggy Lee they were from Epping forest, thier daughter Britannia Buckley married William Oadley (only daughter) died before easter 1910
Elijah Buckley husband of Elizabeth or Betsy Smith killed after a brawl at Epping Forest while his children were still young ( murdered by Gypsy Stephens in 1933)
his children were
1 Lazzy ( othewwise known as George Smith )
2 Oti ( Oti was known as William Smith )
3 Levaithen
Elizabeth Smith was sister to Jasper Petulengro & Ambrose Smith
After her husbands death she used surname Smith and moved to New England with her 2 sons ?
Lazzy must have stayed in England he married Kerlenda Lee father of Midora Alice Charles Henry Fredrick Margaret Cecilia Ernest Patrick Arthur
Joiner & Seni died 1886 survived by 7 children, Joiner is a name among Buckleys who travel round London
In no order of age :
1 Noah Buckley son of Joiner & Seni he married a Smith.
2 Ganation ( known as Nathan) son of Joiner & Seni
husband of Alice Smith lived at Eastwood born 1839
3 Frank son of Joiner & Seni
1st wife a Williams 2nd wife Agnes Boswell
He was born 1845 lived at Barking in 1910
4 Justinia daughter of Joiner & Seni
wife of Woodlock Smith the evanglelist, deceased by 1910
5 Kiomi daughter of Joiner & Seni
wife of Jimmy Taylor , lived in Canning town
6 Santalina ( Santi) son of Joiner & Seni,
husband to Henrietta Boswell,
Her parents were Levi Boswell & Mary Lee
Santi was father of Penderbella (Pender) he married Clara Lee, with whom he bought a old tram- car furnished it and used it for worship.
Santi was also father to a Peron it says he had more children ,but gives no names.
7 Hercules ( Arkless) known as " Dud" after a nominal marriage to Genti Gray married Sarah Draper he was baptized 1843 horringer Suffolk
there is mention of a Joe son of Peron who married a Biddy girl had at least a couple of children
It then says most of Buckleys still travel to the north of London but some of them crossed into Kent as have their cousins the RHODES & the OADLEYS
All the BUCKLEYS and their offshoots come from a Joe Buckley & a Gaji woman From Harwich
Joe had 4 sons, but only Buckleys on the road today are the descendants of Joiner & Seni wh regard themselves as a very noble bred of Gypies.
I hope this will help someone if you need any more let me know
tiggi
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Just noticed it also confirms that Alice Smith was sister to Woodlock Smith
I have no mention of a marriage before that to a Josiah Buckley , that;s not to say it didn;t happen , but note it doesn;t mention him as a child to Joiner & Seni either
It does say that Joe Buckley may have had a previous wife before he married the Skipper woman from Harwich ?
does anyone know if Joe Buckley is descended from Emmanuel Buckley & Aqulia Draper ? they married in 1769
they had a son John baptized 1776 at Tackley could this be Joe ?
Emmanuel Buckley could be son of Amey Hearn & William Buckland they married in 1738, changed their surname from Buckland to Buckley on certificate
If so then family links back to my own Buckland line
Emmanuel had an older brother Edward Buckland
I have info on him and family wil share if I am correct
tiggi
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hi tiggi,
i believe that josiah was the son of sam buckley and seni before he was transported and not of joiner and seni.......not sure but think thats how they are realated.....someone else shred that info with me but i dont have any proof myself.
a. :P
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Hi aa1webb
That would make sense I only have whats in the book and its dated 1888-1973
more than likely there could be more up to date information hope someone can tell us, would love to know if we all connect somehow,
Its strange my own 2 brothers which family start with Tenett & Plato one kept Buckland surname and the other used Buckley, I think I know why , but can;t put it here , but wonder if they all link up
tiggi
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well i'd like to hear the reason if your sharing...you could send private message to me !! 8)
i have read that alot of buckleys were bucklands but im only as far back as joe and lazia so i;v not found any bucklands as yet, but never say never..im pretty sure that they did use the 2 names though as that would contribute the GLS not having anything before joe, who was possibly a josiah???? your theory sounds plausible to,
amanda
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have found these references to Buckley family :
Joiner Buckley born 13th Nov 1830 Wymering Hamps
parents : Samuel & Sarah Buckley
There is a 1881 Census for Frank Buckley EG11 -1710-70-p63
think its already on another post
but I also found 1871 Census St Mark West Ham
RG10-163-78-p29
Frank Smith ( Buckley) 24 pedlar
Lavinia 24
Lena ( Mercy) 4
Leonard 2
Sampson williams 17 ( broader)
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"but I also found 1871 Census St Mark West Ham
RG10-163-78-p29
Frank Smith ( Buckley) 24 pedlar
Lavinia 24
Lena ( Mercy) 4
Leonard 2
Sampson williams 17 ( broader) "
Frank b.cir 1842 married Elvira Williams (first)
they had:
Mercy/Morselina b.cir 1867 Notting Hill
Leonard b.cir 1869 Petre Sfk
Albert b.cir 1871 Plaistow Ex
Uriah b.cir 1873 Thundersley Ex d.1921 Canning Town m.Hannah
Bertha b.cir 1876Cherry Island Ex d.1948 Jersey Rd Custom Hse, E London
Ambrose b.cir 1879 Cherry Island
Joiner b.cir 1881 Cherry Island d.1882 In A Van, Plaistow Ex
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Can I ask where you got the bit about Uriah (Duriah) marrying Hannah? As Hannah is my g-g nan but she was normally known as Annie and im having trouble finding out information on her, other than a death certificate and a marriage to Duriah.
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Interesting page about Rodney " Gypsy" Smith
http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=145
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I cant remember for sure, but it would either be a case of finding them in a later census, or it would have come from (*) or Sharon (Citizen Smith on here) I think......?
(*) Moderator Comment: References to a living person removed at that person's request.
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i havent been able to find Duriah on a census with my g-g nan, but thanks for the information
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hmm I know I saw something about the family online, and did a google search on Elvira, which is I THINK what I did before. Turned up a couple of comments on BBC Roots site, and also this
http://www.ancestryaid.co.uk/boards/surname-letter-b/4602-buckley.html
But it looks suspiciously like it might be you, and in any case names Annie, not Hannah. Im really sorry I cant remember - Ive been doing this too many years.....
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sorry link didnt work
http://www.ancestryaid.co.uk/boards/surname-letter-b/4602-buckley.html
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hmm looks like this board is preventing the link. sorry abt that b ut it said...
"Starting with my great nan Hilda Buckley. Her parents were Duriah Buckley (born 1873 in Thundersley - Died 1921 in West Ham) and Annie Buckley. They lived in and around Canning Town and West Ham, after Duriahs death, Annie moved out to Essex.
Duriah's parents were Frank Buckley and Elvira Buckley (nee Williams). They had 7 children altogether: Morselina (aka Selina or Mercy), Leonard, Albert, Bertha, Ambrose and Joiner (although he died aged just 1 year old). Again they lived in Canning Town areas, after Elviras death in 1882 Frank went on to marry Agnes Boswell, and then later was recorded as living in West Tilbury Essex, by then he was with a lady called Jane.
Franks parents were Joiner Buckley (died 1886 in Plaistow) and his mum was Seni (aka Sarah) Smith - she also died in 1886. They had quite a few children together: Ganation (aka Carnation or Nathan), Hercules (aka Arkless or Dud), Kiomi (aka Naomi), Justinia, Noah, Santalina (aka Sant).
Joiners parents were Joe Buckley who was born around 1780 and his mum was a gorgio named Skipper who came from Harwich. They had four children: Joiner, Hairam, Sam (who was transported to Jamacia and was Seni Smiths 1st husband), and Elijah - who was killed in a brawl in Epping Forest by a gypsy called Stevens in 1933."
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Yes that was my post LOL. Her name was Hannah but went by the name Annie, some certificates say Hannah, some Annie, they like to make things confusing dont they!!
Thanks for helping though, much appreciated.
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most welcome, if I come across anything Ill let you know :)
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hi tiggi,
could you tell me how to get the information on finding the link for samuel & sarah buckley? thank you for the personal replies, im going to have aread through after i get the kids sorted.
just to let yoou know that i do know for definate that alice and josiah were married, i have the dates somewhere if you are interested
amanda
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Woodlock was my ggg-grandfather Bartholomew Smith's brother. Along with their other brother, Cornelius, they were known as The Converted Gipsy Brothers, having 'found God' and embarked on a life of travelling evangelistic preaching. Cornelius was the father of the famed evangelist Gipsy Rodney Smith.
In Rodney's 1901 autobiography “Gipsy Smith: His Life and Work – by Himself” (in which there is a studio portrait of the three brothers), he wrote the following about his uncle:
"The brothers were not well up in etiquette, though in essentials they always behaved like the perfect gentlemen they were. They were drinking tea one afternoon at a well-to-do house. A lady asked Uncle Woodlock to pass her a tart. 'Certainly, madam.' said he, and lifting a tart with his fingers off the plate handed it to her. She accepted it with a gracious smile. When his mistake was afterwards pointed out to him, and he was told what he ought to have done, he took no offence, but he could not understand it at all. He kept on answering: 'Why, she did not ask me for the plateful; she asked for only one!' "
David Lazell's book "Gypsy from the Forest", a biography of Rodney Smith, quotes an article in the magazine "Loving and Sharing" in 1906 in which the magazine's proprietor, J.W.C. Fegan reminisced about the preaching Gypsy brothers:
"With his brothers, Bartholomew and Woodlock, Cornelius constituted the trio of gipsy brothers who had no pretensions to learning. They were simple men; their books had been the hedgerows and the commons, and the streams and sky. They lived in gipsy caravans, and wore the usual type of gipsy clothing.
In 1881, they came to the village of Downe in Kent, where my aged mother was living, in order to hold a Mission. After breakfast and dinner, they used to get her to read the Bible aloud to them, while they gathered round and repeated after her, any special texts until they had committed them to memory. Woodlock could read best of them all, and was gifted with the clearest, purest Saxon speech I have ever heard."
Another excerpt from the Rodney Smith autobiography:
"Uncle Woodlock was the first to go home. The three brothers were together conducting a Mission at Chingford in March, 1882. At the close, Woodlock was detained for a few minutes in earnest conversation with an anxious soul. My father and Bartholomew went on to take the train for Stratford, leaving Woodlock to make haste after them. Woodlock, in the darkness, ran with great force against a wooden post in the pathway. It was some time before he was discovered lying on the ground groaning in agony. To those who came to his help he said, 'I have got my death-blow; my work on earth is done, but all is bright above; and I am going home.'
His injuries were very severe, and though his suffering was great, he never once lost consciousness.
My father stayed by him all night, while Uncle Barthy returned to Stratford to tell the families about the accident. When morning dawned, Woodlock’s wife came to see him, and then he was removed to his own little home in Leytonstone, where he breathed his last ... He had been ill for twenty-eight hours.
He lies buried in Leytonstone church-yard ... He was followed to his grave by his sorrowing relatives and over fifty gipsies, while four hundred friends lined the approach to the church and burying-place. The parish church had a very unusual congregation that day, for the gipsy people pressed in with the others, and as the vicar read the burial service, hearts were deeply touched and tears freely flowed. At the grave, the two surviving brothers spoke of the loved one they had lost, and told the people of the grace of God which had redeemed them and their brother, and made them fit for the inheritance of the saints in light. Woodlock was a hale man, only forty-eight years of age."
I purchased the death certificate, which described the cause of death as "Puncture of intestines from fall". The person who reg'd the death was an I (or a J?) Smith, son ... I don't have any details for this individual. Does anyone else?
So far, I only have 4 'definite' children for Woodlock and wife Justinia/Justina/Testaner Buckley:
- Celia (appears in the '71 census as "Seleh" and born in "Suffolk"), bap. 22 Feb 1857, Hockley, Essex(according to baptism details given in the back page notes in 'The Life Story of Gipsy Cornelius Smith' - Romany & Traveller Family History Society Classic Reprints).
- Owen (appears in the '71 and '81 census with the family, shown as son), b. abt. 1866 in Norfolk (probably Wymondham, as the '81 census "Windon" / "Wendon" doesn't exist .. and Wymondham is pronounced "Wind 'um")
- Hezekiah, b. abt. 1868. The '81 describes him as "idiot". Reputed to have died aged 19 from T.B. and cerebral apoplexy in a lunatic asylum in Essex in 1887 (other details as per Owen)
- Matilda, b. abt. 1880, London City
So far, I have no offspring or marriages for any of the above children.
I'm not sure what to make of "Chlar Smith" a 25 year old married "daughter" b. Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, appearing in the '81 census in the family group. A daughter-in-law? To whom was she married?
(Too long ... to be continued!)
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Woodlock’s wife Justinia was the daughter of Joiner / Janna / Jaina / John Buckley and Seni / Saney / Sarah Smith (and happens to be the elder sister of Naomi Buckley - ALSO my ggg-grandparent - who married James Taylor, whose son Alger married Bartholomew Smith's daughter Naomi!!!). Rodney - again from his autobiography - had this to say about Justinia Buckley:
"Uncle Woodlock was not so fortunate in his wife as the other two brothers. She was not a Christian woman, and she had no respect and no sympathy for religious work. When Woodlock came home from his meetings his wife would give him her opinion, at great length and with great volubility, concerning him and his preaching. The poor man would listen with bowed head and in perfect silence, and, when she had finished her harangue, he would say, 'Now, my dear, we will have a verse,' and he would begin to sing, 'Must Jesus Bear the Cross Alone?' or, 'I'm Not Ashamed to Own My Lord!' or, 'My Jesus, I love Thee.' "
I hope all this – and the previous post - is of use to somebody!
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Hopefully, this photo of L-R: Bartholomew, Cornelius and Woodlock Smith (bless Woodlock - his eyes are shut!) will load up okay. This is the photo from Gipsy Rodney Smith's book which I mentioned earlier. Apologies in advance for the annoying moiré or 'cross-hatching', as often happens with a scan from a book. I will attempt a close-up photo on my next try, as that seems less prone to this sort of visual interference. I bought my copy of the autobiography on eBay for less than £10, so if you want a better quality version, I suggest buying the book :) Well worth a read for the early chapters containing lovely descriptions of Rom life in Victorian times.
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That's good! No visible cross-hatching in the photo ... looks better on here than the saved image on my computer :o
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Hi Britgal,
I have not been on this site for some time and glad I have.
I started the original subject and am pleased that I have another distant relative.
Woodlock Smith is my great,great grandfather and Owen Smith was my great grandfather.
Owen married Ruth Gaskin and was living in the next caravan in Wanstead on the 1881 census.
They had many children including John, Nathan,Lucy,Job,Arthur,Rodney[died as a child],Phoebe,Zegal,
Viner[my grandmother] and Betsy.
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Hi mar1,
Good to hear from you - sounds like we're 4th cousins once removed! Have you been able to find Owen Smith on the census returns post 1881? I'm afraid I've had no luck ... and also no luck in finding an Owen Smith / Ruth Gaskin marriage.
I'm hoping to travel to Leytonstone parish church to find Woodlock and Barthy's graves in early April. Fingers crossed there are gravestones and that they are still legible.
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Just an update regarding my hope to find Woodlock and his brother Barthy's gravestone in Leytonstone churchyard ... I'd planned to visit the churchyard, so got in touch with the local history group for Leytonstone to find out in advance if the evangelist Romany community that used to live there had left any 'footprints', as it were, that the local historians were aware of. They broke it to me that the churchyard received a direct hit from WW2 bombing - in fact it was the very first bomb that fell on Leytonstone in the 2nd World War. The bomb left a crater that is still visible and I'm told that very few stones survived, but they'd let me know sometime if the Smith brothers’ one(s) did (I never heard back, so I'm assuming that's a negative). I see from the internet that the churchyard is now more like a small, leafy, park with info boards dotted around not only concerning the history of local WW2 bombing, but detailing the wildlife found therein. I think the brothers with their countryside upbringing would have approved.
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birth registry Owen Smith 1866 Jan/Feb/Mar Forehoe Norfolk
1901 Wokingham Berkshire there is a Owen Smith b 1866
( says Berkshire but maybe because living there?)
with mix of Smiths & Gregory might be worth looking into all hawkers in caravans
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A Woodlock SMITH married Counci Lettie LOVERIDGE on 13 July 1903 at Bedford St Paul
Woodlock’s father is given as Hemlock SMITH while Councie Lettie’s father is not named. She was baptised three days before the wedding at the same church. Her mother was Elizabeth but her father was not named. Councie’s dob was given as 17 June 1872. She died September Quarter 1955.
Both Woodlock and Hemlock also went by the other’s name. The father, Hemlock, was called Woodlock (56) in 1891 Kneesworth CAM [1103/97/12] but his baptism and death (March Quarter 1897, age 65) are registered under Hemlock.
The son, Woodlock, appears as Woodlock in 1891BDF and 1901BDF but his birth (June Quarter 1871) and death (December Quarter 1957) were registered under Hemlock.
Tracing Hemlock snr back a couple of generations shows that his family lived in the same region as, and had similar forenames to, the family of Woodlock, Cornelius, Barthy etc.
TL
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Small breakthrough in details concerning Woodlock's offspring ... found a baptism listed on Family Search under film no. 994018 for a Lamarline Smith, 18 Feb 1872 at the Primitive Methodist Church in Cambridge (I believe this to be the one that was in Fitzroy Street, demolished around 1877). Parent - i.e. singular - is shown as Woodlock Smith of Cambridge (this makes sense, as Woodlock's wife wasn't a church-goer). Searching under the same film number reveals that three of Lamarline's cousins (children of my ggg-grandfather Bartholomew), Elias, Elijah and Mary, were also baptised at the same location in the early 1870s.
Sadly, I can find no further details concerning a Lamarline Smith. No birth, marriage or death; no census mention ???
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I have been reading these posts with interest.
Could someone with knowledge of Woodlock's family please have a look at the following -
1891 census Celia Pilgrim West Ham Essex - the census looks very suspect as apart from Horace I do not think (or at least cannot trace) any of the others as Pilgrims - the forenames however look to be similar to some of the Smiths.
Freereg Grace Pilgrim 1893 Barking Essex
1901 census Grace Pilgrim 1893 Bexley Kent
1911 census Celia Smith Barking (born 1857)
There seems to be no official marriage between Horace and Celia
Any comments would be appreciated
I can list if required but looking at the actual entries I believe is more helpful
Mike
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Thanks to Mike for his list of possible sightings for Woodlock's daughter, Celia Smith - I'm in general agreement with what's he's discovered, particularly that Horace Pilgrim and Celia most likely weren't married. The flagging up of 1911 census was the most helpful, as it highlighted Celia's return to her maiden name. Off the back of this I found her in the 1901 census (when 2 of her young daughters were living down in Bexley in another and their waggon) - again using the surname Smith, a 45 year old "widow" who is living in Dartford Union Workhouse and whose occupation is Field Work. POB Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk (Ancestry mistranscribed as Burg St Edmunds).
Regarding my previous post of another of Woodlock's daughters, "Lamarline" Smith ... I found a Death Index match for her, only with a different (probably better) approximation of her forename: JQ 1872: Smith Lemertany 0 W. Ham 4a 15.
Death Cert showed Lemertany died aged 2 months from Bronchitis, uncertified. Place of death: The Flats, Little Ilford*, as was the Residence of Informant, present at the death, Justinia Smith, who 'made her mark' on 3rd April 1872. Father shown as Woodlock Smith, Chair Caner.
*According to a lengthy article found on British History Online, "Little Ilford" is now approximately where Manor Park, London is located. "The Flats" were / are the public open space of Wanstead Flats, adjacent to Epping Forest.
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Hi, I've been reading through this thread and wondered if anyone could shed some light on where my family line might fit into this.
I am related to the Smiths, on two accounts. I have cousins that married each other I believe and know they were of gypsy decent.
Starting with my Great Grandfather Arthur Percy Wayland whose parents were Phoebe Ann Cockley and Joseph Wayland who married Betsy Smith born 1886. Betsy Smiths parents were Jane Smith and James Smith (from research I believe they were 1st/2nd cousins).
1. Jane Smith b. 1862 in Biggleswade, Bedfordshire whose parents were Christopher Smith b. 1829 and Elizabeth Albone b.1828 marrying in St.Marks Shoreditch in 1878. Attached the 1871 census (quality may be bad) which I believe may link her siblings to other people on this page, is it the same? Unfortunately I'm stuck past Christopher Smith I have his parents listed as Jame Smith and Elizabeth O'Dell but can't find enough hard evidence in the census (which are mostly missing). Does anyone have more information on them?
2. James smith b. c. 1858 in Brentwood area, Essex. I have parents listed as Frederick Smith and Elizabeth Law. I think Frederick Smith may have been a relative of the James Smith who married Elizabeth O'Dell but haven't it copied it over to my hard copy yet as I am unsure. What's interesting is that Elizabeth Law married Frederick Smith in 1872 after they had their children, Frederick's father is down as James Smith. however again due to missing census records can not be certain as to where Elizabeth Law and Frederick were born (though other people on ancestry have).
I hope that all makes sense so far.
What is also interesting is that the second husband of my 2nd Great Grandmother 'Phoebe Anne Cockley' Harry Lazell whose father I believe was Thomas Lazel and Catherine (Possibly). I haven't done much research into this however. They had one child named Maud, who married Leonard Finch in South End on Essex, in 1960 and did not have children and lived at the cottage at Myhill in Essex. Did these Lazell's have a link to the Smiths through things mentioned on this page too?
Many Thanks in advanced.
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Hi - if you're right that your great great grandparent is Jane Smith, daughter of Christopher "Gritty" Smith & Elizabeth Albone, then that makes us 5th cousins (me being descended from Christopher's brother, Bartholomew). Have you done the Ancestry DNA test? I have, so if your test is there too we should hopefully be able to find a concrete link.
So, Christopher and Barthy's parents were James Smith and Elizabeth Odell (not O'Dell). That's going back some time, in Romany terms, so details are sketchy and hard to come by. I've made copious notes over the years in the hope that one day they'll all make sense ( ;D) I started a long time ago and am no academic with my source-quoting (though I've made valiant attempts) ... so here is the first of two tangled balls of wool for you to pick through. Due to the 5,500 character limit (my total for these two people came to over 16,000) I'll chop up into 6 "pages" ...
PAGE 1 OF 6
JAMES SMITH
Amanda Antoniou's tree describes James as being "one of the Cambridge Smiths". Her data also has James' DOB as 30 Sep 1808 (as does the tree of another researcher, Barry Gould).
The place of birth / baptism: "Piddington, Cambs" seemed to be incorrect. The only Piddingtons in the UK are in Oxfordshire, Bucks and Northants (source: multimap.com). However, a clue presented itself in the form of the baptism of daughter Alice (13 Jan 1839, St Andrew's, Soham, Cambs), where her parents were described as "James & Elizabeth of Acleton Northamptonshire" ... on searching Googlemaps for "Acleton" I discovered it was in fact Hackleton with a dropped 'H' ... and by chance I noticed the village right next door: Piddington ... a part of the civil parish of Hackleton.
The only result in a targeted search for a baptism in the IGI for a James Smith son of a Thomas Smith and a Sarah in 1808 took place 08 AUG 1808 in Ullingswick, Hereford. Doing a targeted search for the 1800 option is 07 DEC 1800 in Tur Langton, Leicester. Either or neither could be right, but I have not great hopes for either. The same search spread between 1800 and 1810 (a total of 25 possibilities) does not bring up any Piddington placenames - it could be a red herring, as can often be the case with Romany claims for POBs, or - as is often the case - the travelling family will save any baptism until a scheduled meet-up with family, or for when they are passing a 'traveller-friendly' church with which they've had good previous experience or have received a recommendation about it from another traveller.
Either James' father had at least two wives, or James was the very youngest of a long series of children. Grandson Rodney Smith recalled in his autobiography that his "grandfather and grandmother were both seventy [when they died or when they were converted? I am assuming the latter], and lived five years after their conversion." and "Grandfather’s brother was camping with him, and he, too, sought and found the Saviour. He was ninety-nine years of age, and lived two years after this, dying a triumphant Christian death."
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So, if I'm correct in thinking that the brothers were 70 and 99 concurrently, then word of mouth says there was around an impressive 29 year span of siblings going on here!
James and Elizabeth Odell's marriage date of 04 Sep 1824 Longstanton, Cambridge has been confirmed by kind check of St Michael's church parish register, Longstanton, performed by the Cambridge Records Office. Both parties described as "of this parish", but this wouldn't have been unusual if the couple had been living there even temporarily (they weren't 'of' any other parish, after all!). Marriage witnessed by William Webb and Sarah Harris.
James' occupation was Basket Maker and Chair Caner. He was also said to be a heavy drinker. Going to public houses was often necessary for travelling Romany men to find work, and engagements would usually be sealed with a drink. Also, Romany men often found employment at fairs and other places of celebration where liquor was drunk, so the temptation to indulge in hearty drinking was persistent (source: Gypsy from the Forest by David Lazell).
From 'The Life Story of Gipsy Cornelius Smith':
"My father and mother, James and Elizabeth Smith, were married at Longstanton, Cambridgeshire, their occupation being chair caners and basket makers. It was their custom to travel from place to place; thus rambling to fairs, feasts, and races ... My father was a drunkard, and when he drank and smoked I tried to imitate him, and eventually succeeded ... One night, my father, coming home the worse for drink, sitting on the front of his van, fell off, and both wheels passed over his body. He was brought home, and we thought he would die ... My father was so very ill that he wished my mother to take a cottage in Cambridge that he might go to the hospital. She did so, and he was somewhat restored, but through this accident was a sufferer for life."
Some of the children researcher Gloria Harmsworth has listed for James and Elizabeth predate the 1824 marriage. This could simply mean that the couple had previously been 'unofficially' married according to Romany tradition prior to the legal marriage. More worryingly, however, is that James' own age (if considering the 1808 option) does not fit in very believably with some of the children he's meant to have fathered. It helps that wife Elizabeth appears to be his senior by about 11 years (unconfirmed), but still!
Also, another facet of James' life would appear to be that he 'got around a bit' ... a Smith researcher (Vince Smith) on Roots Chat wrote: "I know that Rodney's Grandad was a James Smith and that he had a multitude of children from more than one woman."
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Gloria's children's list starts with an Amy, b. 1817, Suffolk (i.e. when James was 9 years old, so pretty unlikely!), and carries on 3 years later with a Frederick**, b. 1820, Huntingdonshire - a Chair Mender who married an Elizabeth Law in Loughton in 1872 (i.e. when he was 52 ... and who then went on to have 8 children!). Third on the list is an unknown female who was born in Cambs in 1825 and died in the same county in 1865. Nameless tree members aren't v. useful - so I will omit this*.
*Amanda Antoniou's tree has Amy's details as having been born in >>1827<< so I have now included her in the tree.
I have started the children's list in this tree from Ezekiel - despite there being very little data for him.
**NB Online genealogy forum poster An65, states that James had a FIRST wife by the name Mary and that their child was Frederick, baptised 08 Mar 1818 in Bletsoe, Bedfordshire (when James was 10?!) and who married an Elizabeth Law in 1872 at Loughton Essex.
Unfortunately, An65 then goes on to reel off a list of James and 2nd wife Elizabeth Odell's ELEVEN children (versus Gloria's post-marriage part of the her list of SEVEN), starting with a pre-marriage dated child by the name of Phoebe, who was baptised 23.11.1817 Chipping Warden, Northamptonshire and who went on to marry a Christopher Smith.
All of which conflicting information must put James' YOB into very serious question. Perhaps some confusion has arisen over James' baptism? An65 firmly states that James' baptism took place 30 Aug 1808 (i.e. one month BEFORE his birth as claimed by others). Even if this is a correct entry/match for James and not a typo, it doesn't necessarily rule out his having been BORN a lot earlier.
The list of 11 children provided online by An65 came, she states, from "T. Lee's excellent work Lee Family Tree Vol 2". This is a copy & paste of her post more or less as seen, other than that I have sorted it into chronological order (the 'c.' is, I expect, 'christened'):
Phoebe c.23.11.1817 Chipping Warden Nthants m.Christopher Smith
Amelia c.21.11.1824 Wickhambrook Sfk
Amy c.07.01.1827 Honington Sfk (born 29.12.1826 Akleton Nthants)
Christopher c.22.03.1829 Digswell Hrts m1 Elizabeth Albone 16.07.1849 Biggleswade and 2.Rhoda Brinkley.
Cornelius c.15.05.1831 Burwell Cam (born 08.05.1831) m.Mary "Polly" Welch.
Thomas b.cir 1832 Bur 03.12.1854 Barkingside Ex
Woodlock c.21.07.1833 Tempsford Bdf m.Justinia Buckley (she later m. Haley Harris after Woodlock's death).
Julia b.cir 1834 married Tom Lee s/o Amos
Bartholomew "Barthy" c.07.02.1836 Bluntisham Hunts married Susan Lee.
Alice b.cir 1839 Ware Hrts c.25.07.1841 Orwell Cam married 1 Josiah Buckley 2 Randal Lee 3 Carnation Buckley.
Edward
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In the biography of James' great-grandson George Bramwell Evens (aka "Romany of the BBC"), written by his wife Eunice Evens nee Thomas (see her Notes), the sons of James are mentioned as follows:
"Cornelius was one of five brothers, the others [i.e. excepting Bartholomew and Woodlock who'd been discussed previously] being known as Christopher and "Pizzler" Jimmy [the mind boggles!]. All of them were badly in need of "conversion," for they were known to be exceptionally lawless; deer-stealing in Epping Forest was one of the least of their crimes."
As can be seen, when compared side by side a lot of the above info differs vastly from the data in the list so far entered into this tree for James and Elizabeth's children. A lot more research needs to be done here ... it just depends on reliable records surviving that can be properly attributed to *this* family (wishful thinking?).
Source for James' date & place of death [07 Apr 1875, Loughton, Essex] un-noted. If correct, the Death Indexes have the following promising match: JQ 1875, aged 75, Epping, 4a, 61, which would roll back James' YOB by eight years and solve a lot of the timeline difficulties.
Certificate with above index reference purchased, but there is nothing concrete that indicates any Gypsy connection. It must be the same certificate to which the previously-mentioned date refers, but I'm just not 100% convinced it's a match, because there's nothing 'obvious' about the certificate. There are, however, small clues that MIGHT add up to it belonging to James. There's no full address of death, which occurred on 7th April 1875, just that it was in Loughton (registration district Epping) ... and this location does tally with that of wife Elizabeth's when she died in 1873 (also with the address solely as "Loughton"). Maybe the lack of an address indicates both were living in a wagon? Age is 75, but occupation is Agricultural Labourer - an occupation done by the majority of British non-travelling people at that time, but also something that Romany peoples did, too, on a seasonal basis. He died of bronchitis - as had his wife - and the informant present at the death was a Bathsheba Smith - an 'odd' enough forename to be a Romany, but a name not so far found elsewhere in the Smith research - whose 'address' is also just noted as Loughton. This JQ 1875 cert is - at best - inconclusive, but I've left it as part of James's 'vital statistics' until something better crops up. The key to the certificate might lie in being able to find out more about Bathsheba Smith.
I later bought an alternative possibility: SQ 1876, Age 73, Epping RD, 4a 80, however this seems even less likely. James Smith, Labourer, 73 years old, died 5th September 1876 in Bury Lane, Epping, Essex. Cause of death: Diseased Heart, Dropsy. Informant: Elizabeth Tarling, daughter, present at the death, of Bury Lane, Epping, Essex. Currently I have no information that suggests James had a daughter named Elizabeth, much less one with the surname Tarling. Family Search shows that an Elizabeth Smith, dau. of James Smith, married a Charles Tarling, s. of James Tarling, in Epping in 1858 ... but this still isn't much help. I include the info to rule it out, more than anything.
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ELIZABETH ODELL
Researcher Roy Taylor via his Pedigree Resource File inclusion on Family Search (see notes for Thomas Smith) gives Elizabeth's parents as Elijah ODELL and Jane SMITH and the date & place of baptism as 16 AUG 1795, Campton, Bedfordshire. This parentage is echoed in the Genes Reunited tree of Barry Gould, who gives Elijah and Jane's years of birth as 1772 and 1774 respectively (no source quoted - probably estimated).
An online genealogy forum poster (An65) is in disagreement and states that Elizabeth's parents were William ODELL & Sarah THOMPSON. She agrees with Roy and Barry's baptism date, however (?!).
A look at the IGI lists shows that an Elizabeth Odell was baptised to a William Odell and a Sarah Thompson on 16 AUG 1795 Shefford, Bedford ... and not long after another Elizabeth Odell was baptised to a Thomas Odell and Sarah on 19 MAR 1797 Cranfield, Bedford (10 miles East of Shefford).
It's my belief that, unless someone goes and actually sets eyes on these parish records (or trustworthy copies of them) and can see the parents having had the textual finger pointed at them as "Strangers" or "Travellers", (or can provide a firm reason for quoting the parents/place they quote) then Elizabeth's true background is all just guesswork.
Very interestingly, the Odell name - in connection with a Smith and the county of Bedfordshire - crops up in a marriage listed in The A to Z of Gipsy Genealogies by Terence Lee:
"BDF Maulden m24/12/1821 Sarah (SMITH), sig = James ODELL, X, chm.swp, bsotp".
Was James Odell a brother of Elizabeth's perhaps? And for that matter, was Sarah Smith connected to Elizabeth's husband James' Smith family (maybe not, if she signed her name)? It's also interesting to note that just 5 days prior to Elizabeth Odell and James Smith's marriage on 04 Sep 1824, another Smith/Odell coupling took place:
"CAM Longstanton St Michael m30/8/1824 Jane (SMITH), X = Elijah ODELL, X, bsotp [Elijah was born RAINBOW TL]"
A look at the PR TX for the above shows the witnesses were William Neal and Sarah Worley (these appear to be locals, as a much later entry in 1847 shows the marriage of a Joseph Neal, son of Wm. Neal, Parish Clerk, and an Ann Worley). On the self-same day as James and Elizabeth's wedding (04 Sep 1824), a Thomas Webb and Mary Robertson were married, with witnesses being William and Mary HARRIS (James and Elizabeth's witnesses were William WEBB and Mary HARRIS. It all sounds as if a number of travellers were in Longstanton around this time (working on the harvest, I should imagine).
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Also intriguing is that on 10 Aug 1823 an "Elizabeth Odle", dau of James & Ann of Maulden, Beds, Lab, was baptised at Longstanton St Michael, born 05 Aug 1823 (source: PR TX).
On 14 Oct 1838 in Rampton, Cambrideshire, a couple named James and Ann Odell (James being described as a Chair Maker), baptised their two children: Maria, 14 days old and John, "near 3 years old". Was this the same James and Ann? These were the only Odell entries in the Rampton baptisms between 1599 and 1950, so it's unlikely the pair were locals.
An65 states that Elizabeth had a daughter named Ann before she married James, baptised c.07.05.1820 Campton, Bedfordshire.
David Lazell, in his book about Elizabeth's grandson Rodney, quotes from Elizabeth's son Cornelius' book "The Life Story of Cornelius Smith":
"... Cornelius recalled that although she was 'only a gipsy', and in that sense would probably be thought ignorant of spiritual matters by most 'gorgios' (non Gypsies), she would never permit her sons to go to bed without saying the Lord's Prayer." Hmm - were the DAUGHTERS excused prayers, I wonder?
Regarding whether the Odells really were Romany people or not, Terence Lee states in his A-Z of Gipsy Genealogies: "In Bedfordshire the surnames ALBONE and ODELL were once quite common and it is unsurprising to note that a few of them married gipsies. But it would be wrong to assume that gipsylike ALBONEs and ODELLs were more closely related to each other through their own name than to each other through their gipsy marriages."
Date & place of death [01 Nov 1873, Loughton] from Death Cert. Elizabeth is described on the certificate as Elizabeth Smith, 76 years, wife of James Smith, Chair Maker. Cause of death: Bronchitis (certified). The person registering the death and who 'made her mark' was an Elizabeth Smith of Loughton - no other details. A good candidate was son Christopher's wife, if she was still alive herself in 1873 (died between the 1871 and 1881 census). Certainly, Christopher & Elizabeth's two youngest children at the time of the 1871 census were both born in "Lowton" [sic], so there is evidence that this daughter-in-law had been in Loughton in the time period not long before 1873.
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Hi, Thanks for your reply! I'll be sure to read through all of this properly soon :)