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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: old rowley on Monday 28 January 08 20:23 GMT (UK)
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Don't know if this will help anyone but I have just picked up a list of the 303 prisoners who were held in the powder magazines at Tilbury Fort in Essex between 1746 and 1750 after being taken prisoner following the uprising in '45. The prisoners were held at Inverness prior to being taken, by seven ships, to London and then onwards to Tilbury.
The list contains the prisoners name and what happened to them. The following is an example of how the information (albeit sparse) is laid out, the number at the front of the name is the prisoners number.
881 David Fettes Transported 31-3-1747
very few details are given for most of those listed although the entry for James Davidson (prisoners number 652) has ...."Released aged 14 reported to be a very wicked boy.."....... nothing is given in the way of where these people came from in Scotland.
As there are over 300 names listed it would difficult to list them all here but set out below is the surnames that are contained in the list.
Allardyce (1) Armstrong (1) Bain (1)
Beaton (1) Bisset (2) Boyer (1)
Brander (1) Calder (1) Cameron (eight)
Chisholm (2) Coutts (1) Cummins (1)
Cumming (1) Davidson (1) Dease (1)
Dingwall (1) Dodds (1) Doig (1)
Drummond (2) Durrar (1) Egor (1)
Farquharson (2) Ferguson (2) Ferrier (1)
Ferris (1) Fettes (1) Finlayson (2)
Fraser (12) Fudde (1) Geddes (2)
Gibbons (1) Gordon (3) Gowen (1)
Grant (45) Hearshall (1) Hewatt (1)
Hood (1) Hurst (1) Innes (1)
Jack (1) Jacque (1) Johnston (1)
Keith (1) Kerr (1) Kessack (1)
Leitch (1) Martin (1) Mason (1)
Mather (1) Mathewson (1) Mavor (1)
M'Alpin (1) M'Bain (2) M'Donald (28)
M'Dougal (2) M'Farquhar (1) M'Gillivray (1)
M'Ginnis (1) M'Glucken (1) M'Intosh (3)
M'Intyre (1) M'Ivor (1) Mackie (1)
Mackay (1) M'Kay (1) M'Kenzie (34)
M'Kinnon (3) M'Lachlan (1) M'Lea (2)
M'Lean (7) M'Leare (1) M'Lennan (3)
M'Leod (13) M'Millan (1) M'Mudie (1)
M'Kneal (1) M'Pherson (1) M'Query (1)
M'Quarrie (1) M'Quary (1) M'Rae (1)
M'Ranald (1) M'Rory (1) M'Swane (1)
M'Sweene (1) M'Vane (1) M'Vannan (1)
Mill (1) Mitchell (4) Monroe (1)
Monro (1) Morgon (1) Morgan (1)
Nicholl (1) Nisbett (1) Nowlan (1)
Parker (1) Piggot (1) Pinkerton (1)
Potter (1) Ranald (1) Ried (1)
Reynoldson (1) Robertson (1) Rose (1)
Ross (4) Scot (1) Simpson (1)
Smart (1) Smith (1) Stephen (1)
Stewart (2) Stuart (2) Strachan (1)
Sutherland (3) Taylor (2) Tudde (1)
Urquhart (2) Wilson (1) Wishart (1)
Whithie (1) Young (2)
If anyone is interested in any of the above surnames I will copy and forward on the details given, either by PM or on the main board.
old rowley
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Thank you old rowley,
I read this with interest because I have just found out my Ancestors (not in the list) fought at Culloden
The information I have is: "In 1745 Theophilus Hearsey (a Cumberland Squire) took up arms for Prince Charles Edward Stuart and led his family, tenants and servants into the field.
Theophilus and his son were both present at Culloden and consequently attainted and their estates confiscated. They fled the country and joined exiled court on the continent."
It appears that when proceedings against the Jacobites were relaxed they returned to England and became London Merchants and made their fortune (wish it had lasted :( ).
What I find really strange is they went on to become generations of high ranking military officers in the British Army based in India ???
Crystal :D
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What I find really strange is they went on to become generations of high ranking military officers in the British Army based in India ???
Crystal :D
The Jacobite wars had very little to do with Britishness. More to do with Catholicism and protestantism. More Scots fought against Charles Edward Stuart than for him. There were a few 'patriot' Jacobites who fought for independence.
It is funny how money can convert people's principles. Your ancestors would have been more than willing to get a commission in the British Army to serve in India so that they could go out and make their fortune. All of a sudden, being British didn't seem so bad.
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;D Thanks Windsor,
I must say I very little about the Jacobite wars, ??? the funny thing is, I never really got interested in history at school because we always seemed to go back to the Tudors and Stuarts (interesting the first time but you get the feeling ther is more to history ::) ::) so when the time came to make choices, I chose Geography instead :o :o :o I must be making up for it now.
I will be reading up on it in the near future and what you say does makes sense :) from what I know of these ancestors, the battles and generally being part of an Army was most important, I just saw it as a change of sides ???
Crystal :D
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As someone who is constantly being labelled a traitor and turncoat by Scottish nationalists, I need to know one or two things about Scottish history. ;)
Anyway, I'm chuffed tonight. One of my ancestors - William Lascelles - has go a mention in a new book (C. Whatley, The Scots and the Union, p46). I'll have to try and slip that in at uni for extra credit. ;)
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Hi OR :)
Very kind of you to offer!
Would you mind, please, letting me know the other details pertaining to the Mackie, Mackay and M'Kay surnames, if it's not too much trouble?
My McKays were still in Inverness at this time, have no idea whether or not they were involved in any of the goings on, but you never know do you?
Many thanks!
Prue :)
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Hi Prue,
The following are the only one's that I have on "my" list. The number at the begining of the entry was the prisioners number, followed by name and what became of them in the way of sentance.
2087 Peter M'Kay Transported
2088 Robert Mackie Transported 20th March 1747
2089 Robert M'Kay Transported 20th March 1747
2090 Robert MacKay Discharged
2092 Robert M'kay Transported
2094 Thomas M'Kay Transported 20th March 1747
2096 William M'Kay Died at Tibury Fort Essex
old rowley
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As someone who is constantly being labelled a traitor and turncoat by Scottish nationalists, I need to know one or two things about Scottish history.
Hi Windsor,
I know we don't do politics on this site, but you have mentioned this a few times. I am a member of the SNP and quite a number of our members, councillors and members of the Scottish Parliament are English. Some like the royal family :), some don't. >:(
So I feel slightly uncomfortable if you think that all Scottish nationalists share the views of the people who have called you a turncoat. I think Scottish and Britsh history is too intriate to have simplistic views on what motivated people to side with Prince Charlie, King Billy or whoever.
Anyway, just thought I just mention this, no harm or insult meant. ;D ;D
Greenvalley
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Good day...
I just came across your entry, and am interested in finding out the details for prisoner `Beaton`.
Thank you!
Alex McQuaid
Oakville Ontario Canada
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As someone who is constantly being labelled a traitor and turncoat by Scottish nationalists, I need to know one or two things about Scottish history.
Hi Windsor,
I know we don't do politics on this site, but you have mentioned this a few times. I am a member of the SNP and quite a number of our members, councillors and members of the Scottish Parliament are English. Some like the royal family :), some don't. >:(
So I feel slightly uncomfortable if you think that all Scottish nationalists share the views of the people who have called you a turncoat. I think Scottish and Britsh history is too intriate to have simplistic views on what motivated people to side with Prince Charlie, King Billy or whoever.
Anyway, just thought I just mention this, no harm or insult meant. ;D ;D
Greenvalley
I apologies if I offended you also.
I do tend to go off on a rant with these things. It is generally the younger people who come out with the offensive stuff. In their view, I should support independence due to blood ties and the plight of my ancestors.
I live in an SNP safe constituency (Alex Salmond's constituency) - sometimes I can't contain myself.
Again, sorry for tarring all nationalists with the same brush.
regards
Windsor87
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Hi Alex,
The entry for the prisoner named Beaton reads,
(prisoner) 141 Angus Beaton Transported 31-3-1747.
Not much I am afraid
old rowley
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Hi OR,
I would be obliged to you for any details of the following surnames. Robertson, McIntosh, McGillivray, McLennan & Bain.
Cheers,
Alexena :)
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Hi ,
I've just discovered this thread - and your kind offer.
I'd be particularly interested in any details concerning the following prisoners from your list:
Bisset (2)
Ferrier (10)
Stewart (2)
Stuart (2)
Young (2).
Thanks,
Jill
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Hi Alexena,
As with the others the information given is to the point and basic but I hope that the information given may be of some help. The prisoners number preceeds the name.
2855 George Robertson Transported 31st 3rd 1747
2046 Alexander McIntosh Transported 31st 3rd 1747
2055 John McIntosh Died 12th 6th 1747 at Tilbury Fort
2068 William McIntosh Died at Tilbury Fort
2005 Farquhar Mc'Gillivray Died at Tilbury Fort
2287 Duncan M'Lennan Not Known
2295 Duncan M'Lennan Transported 20th 3rd 1747
2301 Rory M'Lennan Transported 31st 3rd 1747
84 Kenneth Bain Transported 31st 3rd 1747
OR
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Hi Jill,
As before the information given is basic and again the prisoners numbers preceed their names and details. Also the entries for the name Ferrier should have read 1 not 10 on my initial listing ....mental note to self ....remember to hit the keys abit harder and read the message prior to posting. Sorry for misleading you in the hope that there were going to be a large amount of them (I have now amended the entry on the list).
164 George Bisset Died at Tilbury Fort
166 William Bisset Not Known
878 John Ferrier Died at Tilbury Fort
3140 Allen Stewart Died at Tilbury Fort
3175 John Stewart Transported 31st 3rd 1747
3149 David Stuart Transported 20th 3rd 1747
3159 Hugh Stuart Transported 31st 3rd 1747
3466 Thomas Young Transported 31st 3rd 1747
3468 Walter Young Discharged
OR
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Thanks OR.
Yes, must admit, I got a bit carried away with the 10 Ferriers as it's not that common a name, especially in Perthshire where mine come from!
Never mind, one is better than none! ;) I shall keep those names on file in the hope that I'll be able to connect them to my ancestors at some time.
Jill
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Thank you OR for that information. I shall see if I can link any of the names with my ancestors. Much appreciated.
alexena
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Hiya Alex and old Rowley,
O.R. wrote:
The entry for the prisoner named Beaton reads,
(prisoner) 141 Angus Beaton Transported 31-3-1747.
I have copies of the pages of "Prisoners of the '45" and "Muster Roll of Prince Charles Edward Stuart's Army, 1745-46" where they mention Cromarty's Regiment, Angus is found there with some more data, noted as miller to the Laird of Ardloch, 48 years of age, at "Little Laids", "Home or Origin" as Caithness.
My guess is Caithness was an error, though possbly he was born there. I have not located "Laids" or "Little Laids" but Mackenzie of Ardloch was then at Assynt Parish of SutherlandShire.
The Laird of Ardloch sat out the Rebellion, but his younger brother John was a prominant officer in Cromarty's Regiment, evaded capture at Dunrobin, aided French attempts to rescue Bonny Prince Charlie, including acting as pilot to the Privateer that eventually did get the Prince, though later captured with further adventures.
Old Rowley, I'd be interested in the source of the list you have; I have not been able to track down all the original sources of the two books I note above, and from description it looks likely your list is one of them. Please contact me off line and I'd be happy to trade the data from "Prisoners" and "Muster" on Cromarty's Regiment for the data you have. [email *]
All the best,
Donald.
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Could I get a copy of what you have for the M'Donald (28) entry?
THanks.
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Hi Krr23 and welcome to rootschat and the Scotland board.
The listing for the M'Donald's are the same as the others in as much as the number preceeding the name is the number given to that prisoner.
1804 Alexander M'Donald Transported
1805 Alexander M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1806 Alexander M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1807 Alexander M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1808 Alexander M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1932 Archibald M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
(I think that this was a typo error and should have the prefix of 1832 in front of the name).
1833 Archibald M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1853 Donald M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1860 Duncan M'Donald Discharged
1862 Duncan M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1863 Duncan M'Donald Not Known
1864 Ewwn M'Donald Transported
1880 James M'Donald Transported 20-3-1747
1902 John M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1903 John M'Donald Died June 1746 at Tilbury Fort
1904 John M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1905 John M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1906 John M'Donald Transported 20-3-1747
1907 John M'Donald Transported 20-3-1747
1910 John M'Donald Transported 20-3-1747
1924 Owen M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1928 Ranald M'Donald Liberated 4-7-1747
1931 Ranald M'Donald
He was ordered to be transported but was still in Tilbury Fort Essex in April 1747 and was probably discharged.
1932 Ranald M'Donald
Released under general pardon 1747
1941 Sween M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1943 William M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1944 William M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
1945 William M'Donald Transported 31-3-1747
Hope that they are of some use to you.
old rowley
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I have just come across your post re the jacobite prisoners 1747, I found an extract from a book (Scots banished to the American Colonies) on the Ancestry website which referred to a John Meiklejohn age 31, deserter, soldier Royal Scots Stirling, born 1716 taken prisoner at Inverness then to London, Tilbury Fort, transported to Barbados on the ship Frere 31 March 1747. I think this may be my great x 6 grandfather, and I am trying to find out if he survived the journey to Barbados and if so what became of him. I would be really grateful for any other information on him.
Regards
MB
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Just saw your post on the Jacobite prisoners. I am interested in the Surname "Strachan". Would love the details if you have the time.
Thanks!
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Maz/MB,
Welcome to Rootschat and the Scotland Board. Unfortunately the small listing that I have only covers those prisoners that were taken from Inverness to Tilbury on 10th June 1746 and as far as I am aware only covers rougly 300 of the total prisoners that were transported, sadly John Meiklejohn is not on this list.
old rowley
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Hi Peggy and welcome to Rootschat and the Scotland Board.
The only Strachan that is on the list is as follows,
(Prisoner number) 3201. John Strachan died at Tilbury Fort Essex.
Not much to go on I'm afraid but at least you know what happened to him.
Old Rowley
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Old Rowley,
Thank you so much for taking the time to post the information. I so appreciate it.
Peggie
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Maz/MB,
Welcome to Rootschat and the Scotland Board. Unfortunately the small listing that I have only covers those prisoners that were taken from Inverness to Tilbury on 10th June 1746 and as far as I am aware only covers rougly 300 of the total prisoners that were transported, sadly John Meiklejohn is not on this list.
old rowley
[Thanks for checking, I'll keep looking for other books etc. for information on these prisoners If I find anything I'll post it on the board.]
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Please forward me the information on the Gowen listed.
Thanks!
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Hi GaScot and welcome to rootschat and the Scotland board. The information that I have is confined to only one short entry which reads
1105 Duncan Gowen Transported 31-3-1747.
(the number preceeding his name relates to his prison number).
However if you place "Duncan Gowen transported 1747" into your search engine one site comes up
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gowenrf/Gowenms054.htm
which has more information about him. The information about Duncan Gowen can be found if you scroll down to the heading of "Ross & Cromarty County, Scotland"
hope the above link works.
old rowley
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Thank you Old Rowley! Unfortunately not the one I was looking for. Do you have any other Gowen/Gowin/Gowan or variant listed?
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Sorry GaScot that is the only one by that name and there are no variants on the list that I have.
old rowley
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I have the list of prisoners tried at Carlisle in 1746 which I will post in three posts as the original is too big for a single.
Aye
Buzancy18
Prisoners tried - Carlisle 1746
From the book on the life of John Fergusson 1727 - 1750. This trial was illegal due to ignoring the 1707 Act of Union. Men who were legally obliged under Scots Law, for vassals to follow their superior, were automatically gulty under English Law. The jury, which was made up of loyal citizens of Carlisle, would have condemned anyone wearing tartan to be hanged. The lawyers for the accused were Lockart of Craighouse and James Fergusson of Pitfour. They resorted to a novel device, having their servant don highland garb ,smuggled him into the prisoners and then by putting each other into the box, prove conclusively that he had been with them throughout and could not possibly have been out. The incident is said to have had a most salutory effect in the trials which followed.
Enclosure in Lord Pitfours letter to Lord Kilkerran (James Fergusson) of 4th October 1746. Spelling as in the original document.
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List of the prisoners tryed for High Treason at Carlisle September 1746. (For the individual histories see " The Prisoners of the 45" Scottish History Society, 3 vols, 1928-9)
Pled Guilty
Scotsmen FATE (added March 2001)
Sir Archibald Primrose of Dunipace executed
Lawrence Mercer of Lethinty died in prison
Robert Murray (bros of Sir Richard Murray) pardoned on enlistment
William Sharpe (grandson of Archbishop Sharpe) reprieved - escaped later
James Innes of Banff executed - 70 years old
Charles Gordon of Talpersy executed
David Home (bros to Whitfield) executed
Andrew Johnstone ( son to Knockhill) pardoned on enlistment
Henry Clark - Gentleman died in prison
Robert Taylor - shoemaker in Edinburgh pardoned on enlistment, refused, released 47
Robert Randal - Gentleman pardoned on enlistment 1748
James Smith - writer sentenced to death but died in prison
Andrew Porteous - Merchant pardoned on enlistment 1748
Patrick Lindsay - Gentleman sentenced to death but execution not confirmed
Robert Maxwell - writer pardoned on enlistment 1747
John Wallace executed
John Campbell 3 John Campbells listed 2 transported to Antigua, 1 to Jamaica
William Duncan transported
Robert fforbes (bros to Capt fforbes) released
Robert Reid executed
Donald McKenzie transported 1748
Hugh Roy aged 14 pardoned on enlistment
John Davidson transported
John McKenzie transported Antigua 1747
John Poustie transported 9/11/1747
Ronald McDonald executed
Andrew Swan (Manchester Regiment) executed Penrith October 1746
James Harvie executed
James Campbell transported 1748
James Mitchell executed
Alexander Davidson transported March 1747
Patrick Keir executed, refused to give evidence against Sir Archibald Primrose tho' offerred a pardon.
English
Roger Fulthorp pardoned on enlistment
Thomas Kieghly pardoned on enlistment
Samual Lee pardoned on enlistment
Barnaby Mathews executed
Thomas Park executed
John Robottom executed
John Saundersone pardoned on enlistment
Philip Hunt executed
Valentine Holt executed
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Convicted on tryal
Scots
ffranc Buchannan of Arnprior executed,
Donald McDonald of Kinlochmoidart executed
Donald McDonald of Tiendrich (Major) executed
James Hay - Capt in ye ffrench Service pardoned on banishment to France
Mr Robert Lyon - clergyman executed, chaplain to Ogilvy's Regt
William Home (Son to Bassenrig - 14 yrs old) Pardoned, went to France
John Henderson of Castlemains executed
Patrick Murray - Goldsmith in Sterling executed, buried St Cuthberts , JP & Sherrif Clerk
James Ancrum - Gentleman died in prison before transportation.
James Brand - watchmaker executed 18th Oct 1746 Carlisle
John McNaughton - do executed, killed Col Gardener at Preston battle
Richard Morison - the P's valet released 1748 following being a Crown witness
Alexander Hutchison - the P's groom pardoned on enlistment.
Thomas Lawson sentenced to death, modified to transportation,
too ill to be shipped, released 1749.
John McNeil pardoned on enlistment
James Forbes sentenced to death, execution set for 21st Oct 1746, pardoned 20th on
enlistement
Hugh Cameron executed 18th October 1746
Symon Lugton transported, described as "an idiot "
Alexander Stevenson executed 11th Nov 1746
Alexander Andersone transported, 1715 rebel, tried to escape night before transport
William Baird transported, subpoened to give evidence for Rev Thomas Lyon
When he arrived he was tried for high treason in order to
prevent him giving exculpatory evidence!!
English
Thomas Coppock - Clergyman executed 18th Oct, chaplain Manchester Regt
Stephen Fitzgerald - Gentleman died in prison before execution
William Wynstanley not known, may have been transported or died in prison
George Hartley pardoned on enlistment
Richard Brown pardoned on enlistment
William Cook pardoned on enlistment
Molineaux Eaton executed
William Hargreave pardoned on enlistment
Thomas Hayes executed
John Hartley pardoned on enlistment
Edward Roper executed
Robert Tinsley pardoned on enlistment
Peter Tinsley not known
Peter Taylor refused to sign petition for mercy, escaped, recaptured, hanged at
Brampton 21st October 1746
George Waring pardoned on enlistment
Mathew Waring pardoned on enlistment
James Mollen probably died in prison.
James Chaddock executed Kennington common July 1746
Michael Delard executed
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Convicted but recommended to mercy by the jury.
Scots
Robert Wright - writer in Edinburgh escaped 1747 with William Sharp
William Gray - surgeon pardoned on enlistment
Patrick Stewart pardoned on enlistment
William Lecky transported
English
John Coppock pardoned on enlistment
Thomas Harvie pardoned on enlistment
John Ratclif died in prison
Thomas Turner of Bury pardoned on enlistment
Thomas Turner of Walcot pardoned on enlistment
Lewis Barton transported
John Small pardoned on enlistment
Discharged from the bar on Tryal
Scots
aquitted
Charles Spalding of Whitfield
Baron ffergusson of Athole (James Fergusson of Dunfallandy)
James Seton (son to Carriston)
Patrick Buchannan - Brother of Arnpryor
Thomas Buchannan - " "
James Murray - surgeon
Martin Lindsay - writer
Archibald McLaughlin - drover
James Thoirs - writer
William Stewart
Alexander Brodie
Alexander Steil
Neil McLaren
Donald McDonald
Donald McCormig
James Drummond
John Petrie
Jo McLaren
John Forrest George Steil
John Martine
Patrick McGriggor
Duncan McGriggor
David Laird
Patrick Butter
Robert Gordon
Duncan Neish
Aquit upon their giving evidence of their Surrendering ymselves and claiming ye benefite of the D of Cumberland's proclamation
English
Thomas Barton - Gentleman
Thomas Collingwood - Gentleman
James Braithwaite
Thomas Hatch
Robert Rosco
Thomas Williamsone
Edmund Bane
Thomas Warringtone
Patrick McEwar
remain untryed of those indited
Thomas Blair (?) transported
John Stewart - Assurances of being sett at liberty soon discharged
Rob Mcfarlane - " " " transported
William Greenhill - " " transported
Charles Douglass Esq pled his peerage of Lord Mordington pardoned on banishment
but died in Prison 1750 petitioned Lords that he was starving in chains among common prisoners at Carlisle
_______________________________________________________________________________
It is highly likely that the condemned were transported to the Carolinas or West Indies mainly Jamaica or Antigua. Pardoned on enlistment means they joined either the Army or the Navy..
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would very much appreciate any info about prisoner named Calder. Thank you!
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Do you have details of Roderick Fraser on the list? I have an ancestor with that name who was deported in 1747 and would love to know more about him.
Thanks
Kate
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Hi nlhapp and welcome to Rootschat and the Scotland board. The information on the list that I have is very limited as all there is for the name that you have is
310 Peter Calder Died at Tilbury Fort
The number before his name would be his prison number.
As the prisoners had left Inverness on the 10th June 1746 for London by ship and landed at Tilbury on 11th August 1746 and they were held at Tilbury before being transported to the America's and the Indies in the March of 1747 his death would have been somewhere between the latter two dates, there is a note to the list stating that a total of 45 prisoners had died whilst held at the fort by 11th September 1746 perhaps Peter Calder was one of them.
old rowley
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Hi Kate, and welcome to Rootschat and the Scotland board.
I am afraid that Roderick does not appear on the list that I have but a search via Google Books comes up with a Roderick Fraser b.1719, Jacobite. mentioned in "America Original Scots Colonists 1612-1783". Could this be "your" Roderick I wonder. Unfortuately one can not view the contents to this book via Google Books but you may be able to do an internet search to see if it is still posible to view it else where/or obtain it. Sorry I can not help much on this.
old rowley
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Hi
Thank you for looking - that reference does indeed seem to be "my" Roderick. He was 28 when he was transported in 1747 and had served in Cromarty's regiment as far as I know. I will try and find out what happened to him after 1747.
Thanks again
Kate
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Hi Buzancy18
Do you have any other details on the Ronald Mcdonald (executed) ie where he was from or any other snippet.
Yours Aye
BruceL
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I have a list of Rebels but cannot find them anywhere.
If they escaped did they become free men.
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BruceL,
Afraid I have nothing further. All these men were captured at Carlisle.
Buzancy18
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Hi Buzancy18
Many thanks for looking it was a short straw anyway
still looking
your Aye
BruceL
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thanks for the offer. an ancestor in our 'tree' was with Prince Charlie at the '45' although i know little about him excpet that that he left his 3 year old daughter in Canonbie as he marched thru along the Esk to Carlisle. Do you have any Robert Grants from Stathspey on your list?
And, can you give me any suggestions where to look for more opportunities to 'find' this Robert Grant in records?
Thanks very much.
Merv
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Old Rowley,
Thank you for posting the list of the prisoners from 1745. I have recently located the grave of my 5x grandfather, Daniel McIvor, in Appomattox County, Virginia. He died at the age of 83 in 1812. He would have been about 16 at the time of the '45. I would really be grateful to know if the M'Ivor you have is named Daniel.
Incidentally, his son James, my 4X great was buried beside him. He died in 1815.
I found your information by doing a google search and I am most thankful that you posted it.
Regards,
Wils Son
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Hi Wils Son and welcome to rootschat and the Scotland board. I am afraid that you are out of luck as the McIvor that is on my list is down as a Evander McIvor who died at Tilbury Fort in Essex England. Sorry that I can not help you on this one.
old rowley
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old rowley,
Thanks very much for the prompt reply. Evander is an interesting name and not one that is in my family. I do believe that Daniel came up through the Carolina's to Virginia and is a likely candidate to have been transported.
Regards,
Wils Son
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Hi Merv, Sorry for the delay in answering. Unfortunately I have no Robert Grant's showing on the short list that I have but a search on the net gives a Robert Grant who was captured at Preston and was aboard the ship "Elizabeth & Anne" under the command of Edward Trafford which left Liverpool on 28th July 1716 heading for Jamaica and Virginia.
I do not know if this relates to the Robert Grant that you are researching but it could be a start.
old rowley
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Thanks for info old rowley. Not likely our Robert Grant but an interesting piece of history just the same.
Cheers.
Merv
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hi old rowley, I am looking into the mckenzie family and would be pleased if you could let me have any information you have as regards the prisoners of the rebellion with that name
thank you
Alex
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Morning Alex,
In total there are 34 men with the surname of M'Kenzie on the list that I have. To make it simpler I have used the first name followed by x and a number where there are more than one with that name. The four figured number that follows after this is the number given to the prisoner at Tilbury Fort in Essex.
Alexander x5. 2097/ 2098/ 2099/ 2100. All four prisoners transported on 31st March 1747.
Alexander 2108. Died at Tibury Fort Essex.
Daniel x3. 2117 Transported (no details given).
2118 & 2119 both died at Tilbury Fort Essex.
Donald x7. 2115/ 2126/ 2127/ 2128/ 2129/ 2130. These six prisoners were transported on 31st March 1747.
Donald 2133. This prisoner transported on 20th March 1747.
George x2. 2146. Transported 31st March 1747.
2147. Transported 20th March 1747.
James 2151. Transported 31st March 1747.
John x7. 2157/ 2158/ 2159/ 2160/ 2161/ 2162. These six prisoners were transported on 31st March 1747.
John 2171. Died at Tilbury Fort Essex.
Kenneth x4. 2173/ 2174/ 2175. These three prisoners transported on 31st March 1747.
Kenneth 2176. Transported on 19th March 1747.
Lewis 2183. Transported April 1747.
Murdock x2. 2185/ 2186 both prisoners transported on 31st March 1747.
Rory x2. 2197/ 2198 both prisoners transported 20th March 1747.
old rowley
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Morning Alex,
In total there are 34 men with the surname of M'Kenzie on the list that I have. To make it simpler I have used the first name followed by x and a number where there are more than one with that name. The four figured number that follows after this is the number given to the prisoner at Tilbury Fort in Essex.
Alexander x5. 2097/ 2098/ 2099/ 2100. All four prisoners transported on 31st March 1747.
Alexander 2108. Died at Tibury Fort Essex.
Daniel x3. 2117 Transported (no details given).
2118 & 2119 both died at Tilbury Fort Essex.
Donald x7. 2115/ 2126/ 2127/ 2128/ 2129/ 2130. These six prisoners were transported on 31st March 1747.
Donald 2133. This prisoner transported on 20th March 1747.
George x2. 2146. Transported 31st March 1747.
2147. Transported 20th March 1747.
James 2151. Transported 31st March 1747.
John x7. 2157/ 2158/ 2159/ 2160/ 2161/ 2162. These six prisoners were transported on 31st March 1747.
John 2171. Died at Tilbury Fort Essex.
Kenneth x4. 2173/ 2174/ 2175. These three prisoners transported on 31st March 1747.
Kenneth 2176. Transported on 19th March 1747.
Lewis 2183. Transported April 1747.
Murdock x2. 2185/ 2186 both prisoners transported on 31st March 1747.
Rory x2. 2197/ 2198 both prisoners transported 20th March 1747.
old rowley
HI O.R thanks for your help. I wonder if you might be able to point me in the general direction of any more sources of information on these men such as where they were transported to and so on.
Alex.
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Alex wrote:
I am looking into the mckenzie family and would be pleased if you could let me have any information you have as regards the prisoners of the rebellion with that name
Hiya Alex,
Chief of the Mackenzies, Seaforth, declared loyalty to the Hanoverians, he raised several hundred Mackenzies to garrison Inverness against the rebels.
George Mackenzie, Earl of Cromarty, was head of the second most powerful Mackenzie family, with his 18 year old son John as Lieut-Colonel he raised a Jacabite regiment. Both Seaforth and Cromarty used threats of burning, hanging, and eviction to recruit. (Seaforth's wife did some recruiting for the Jacobites)
Cromarty recruited mostly from his Wester Ross estate of Coigach and the wider Lochbroom, he also got some from Easter Ross.
The Regiment fought in several battles, then was tasked with occupying Sutherland and Caithness. Ordered south to Inverness they left Dunrobin Castle in some disarray, the men ahead of the officers. The Sutherland Militia ambushed and defeated them, the officers surrendering at the castle. That was the day before the Battle of Culloden, their absence there was a contributing factor to defeat of the Rebellion.
There were some MacKenzies with other regiments, notably MacKenzie of Lentron with MacDonell of Glengary, but most Jacobite MKs were with Cromarty.
A few files on my website;
A study of interrelationships, mostly MacKenzies; http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~coigach/trees.htm
A timeline of the Rebellion;http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~coigach/ardloch.htm
Donald.
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Alex wrote:
I am looking into the mckenzie family and would be pleased if you could let me have any information you have as regards the prisoners of the rebellion with that name
Hiya Alex,
Chief of the Mackenzies, Seaforth, declared loyalty to the Hanoverians, he raised several hundred Mackenzies to garrison Inverness against the rebels.
George Mackenzie, Earl of Cromarty, was head of the second most powerful Mackenzie family, with his 18 year old son John as Lieut-Colonel he raised a Jacabite regiment. Both Seaforth and Cromarty used threats of burning, hanging, and eviction to recruit. (Seaforth's wife did some recruiting for the Jacobites)
Cromarty recruited mostly from his Wester Ross estate of Coigach and the wider Lochbroom, he also got some from Easter Ross.
The Regiment fought in several battles, then was tasked with occupying Sutherland and Caithness. Ordered south to Inverness they left Dunrobin Castle in some disarray, the men ahead of the officers. The Sutherland Militia ambushed and defeated them, the officers surrendering at the castle. That was the day before the Battle of Culloden, their absence there was a contributing factor to defeat of the Rebellion.
There were some MacKenzies with other regiments, notably MacKenzie of Lentron with MacDonell of Glengary, but most Jacobite MKs were with Cromarty.
A few files on my website;
A study of interrelationships, mostly MacKenzies; http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~coigach/trees.htm
A timeline of the Rebellion;http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~coigach/ardloch.htm
Donald.
Hi Donald, thanks very much for this info and the links you provided much appreciated will check out your website.
Alex.
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Thank you old rowley,
I read this with interest because I have just found out my Ancestors (not in the list) fought at Culloden
The information I have is: "In 1745 Theophilus Hearsey (a Cumberland Squire) took up arms for Prince Charles Edward Stuart and led his family, tenants and servants into the field.
Theophilus and his son were both present at Culloden and consequently attainted and their estates confiscated. They fled the country and joined exiled court on the continent."
It appears that when proceedings against the Jacobites were relaxed they returned to England and became London Merchants and made their fortune (wish it had lasted :( ).
What I find really strange is they went on to become generations of high ranking military officers imauricen the British Army based in India ???
Crystal :D
Hullo Crystal I am a descendant from he Hearsey family, my mother who has passed on. my aunt is still alive. I have the family hhistory book which mother has passed on to me to which there is only two copies, also documents relatin to family memebers I was born in India my mother was born in India who fled Burma with the Hearsey family into India, also the Barnard family . yes they had big business as part of the India Company and were high ranking Officers some were Generals.....some where along the line are we cousins..? mothers maiden name was hearsey then O, Brien...
contact me via email....(*)
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Thank you old rowley,
I read this with interest because I have just found out my Ancestors (not in the list) fought at Culloden
The information I have is: "In 1745 Theophilus Hearsey (a Cumberland Squire) took up arms for Prince Charles Edward Stuart and led his family, tenants and servants into the field.
Theophilus and his son were both present at Culloden and consequently attainted and their estates confiscated. They fled the country and joined exiled court on the continent."
It appears that when proceedings against the Jacobites were relaxed they returned to England and became London Merchants and made their fortune (wish it had lasted :( ).
What I find really strange is they went on to become generations of high ranking military officers in the British Army based in India ???
Crystal :D
re- my answer most of the hearseys enlisted as ensigns and worked their way up into the ranks....there were many men of the hearsey s who served in the army both for the East India Company then the Indian Army some went to Burma where my Grandparents lived before fleeing Burma because of the Japonese invasion, they played a big part in the Indian mutinity where A general Hearsey and hisson Capt Andrew Hearsey disarmed the mutineers there is an Indin film "Mangel Pandy" the hearsey family was vast as most of them married met some of them on the reurn after the Partition of India. most were in the Indian Army and the Royal Signals....BAINS LEVISTON-ALLEN and a major who I met in training in Catterick camp in 1961 a Major late of the Indian Army my late mother nee HEARSEY her father was a senior burmese police officer in the burma police....my own Father an Englishman was an officer in the war time Indian army,,,another name is PURDY.....I have my Grandfathers features.....as my Aunt Elsie.....
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Sorry colonel m only just picked this up been rather busy of late - all sounds very interesting, I have sent a pm for now and will get back to this as soon as I am able.
Crystal :D
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I am curious on any news regarding the Jacobites of Cummings, Kerr, Keir and Reid families.
Thank you, Bret
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Hi, am interested in the one named as Tudde this is also a derivitive of Todd/Tod/Todde
Thanks
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Hi Neil, unfortunately all I have for Tudde is,
3300 William Tudde Not Known.
the 3300 was his prisoner number and the "not known" relates to what happened to him. Not much help I'm afraid.
OR
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Many thanks, at least it follows that it was a william at least 600 yrs of them now.
Regards ;D
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I am interested to know if anyone has any more inforation on John Coppock and also his brother Thomas Coppock better know as the Mock Bishop of Carlisle who was hung drawn and quartered at Carlisle Castle, John Coppock was Thomas brother and would be my 7th G Grandfather.
Thanks
Sharon.
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John Coppock was recommended to mercy by the jury at Carlisle.
I have no idea what happened to him.
Buzancy18
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Re Previous message "Hearsey"
I have been tracing the Hearsey's and was wondering if anyone knows the details about them being Orange Merchants in London. Have found a few details in the wills for example Christian Mary Hearsey Born in 1747 and Died in 1805. Also does anyone know if Theophilus Hearsey Born in 1754 married Sarah Garlick.
Great reading especially as I am directly related through the Marian Salmon nee Hearsey.
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Hello Sante,
I too have many listings of Theophilus Hearsey etc. being London Merchants and later listed as "Orange Merchants" all references between 1751 -1800, I would love to sort it out!
Unfortunately I have found four Theophilus Hearsey's so it is almost impossible to say which information fits each one!
the first I have knowledge of is the one who fought at the battle of Culloden in 1745 he was a Cumberland squire and Jacobite
the second is the son of Theophilus above of whom I have no birth date but his brother Andrew died in Middelburg Holland 1752, I have these notes about this Theophilus
"Theophilus and his father were both present at Culloden and consequently attainted and their estates confiscated. They fled the country joining exiled court on the continent where his father eventually died, he remained until proceedings against Jacobites were relaxed and then returned to England, settled down as a merchant in the city of London and became rich and prosperous."
The third, the son of brother Andrew above although I have only found one reference of this one.
I do also have notes from "The Social Condition of the British Community in Bengal" 1757 - 1800 - by Suresh Chandra Ghosh (1970 pub. BRILL)The Development of the British Official Families page 46
The Hearsey's are an example of a typical family all of whose adult male members looked upon the Bengal Army as their right opening. Andrew Hearsey the Captain of an East Indiaman and the brother of Theophilus, an influential London Merchant, died in 1778 leaving one daughter (another Chritian Mary born around 1730) and one son, Andrew Wilson Hearsey who had obtained a cadetship on the Bengal establishment in 1765.
The forth was the son of Andrew Hearsey ( son of the Andrew Hearsey above) and Jane Cole (whom it would appear had 15 children) Theophilus born abt. 1754
One of the Theophilus Hearseys (probably the one above) must have married Sarah Garlick
Pallots Marriage entry for Theophilus Hearsey Residence St.Botolph Billingsgate - Parish St. Mary Le Bow married by License 1783 to Sarah Garlick (minor)
I just wish they had been more imaginative about their names and chosen something different to Theophilus and Andrew!
If you have any other details I would love to her them, I do not have any references to the wills you mention.
I have also included The Salmon's in my research due to Marion Hearsey's marriage - this side is still ongoing for me.
Crystal :D
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The Hearsey's
Found the Following;
Theophilus (Cumberland Squire) (Went to Colloden)
a) Theophilus (2nd) (Went to Colluden)
b) Andrew
A) Theophilus (in commerce)
B) Andrew (captain) in the seven year war
a) Andrew Wilson (1752-1798)
Wills from the National Archives
Theophilus 9 sept 1824 Orange Merchant in Botolph lane
20 Apr 1822
11 Nov 1774 Orange Merchant London Lower Thames
Andrew 8 Jan 1825 Orange Merchant Botolph Lane
29 Aug 1804 Andrew Wilson Captain
The third Theophilus suceeded in commerce, while his uncle Andrew became captain of an East Indiaman that defeated a French Frigate in a vigorous action during the Seven Years War (1756-1763)........................ The third Andrew Hearsey arrived in India in the year when Robert Clive assumed his brief second governorship of Bengal...........................From family memoirs.
Thought that it was interesting but now you have to match this up with any BDM records, rather difficult.
does anyone have any dates?
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The wills look interesting but as you say difficult to match up dates!
I hope some one can help!
Although this all starts with the Battle of Culloden I have been unable to find more details about Theophilus and his sons after they fled to the continent (or how they fled) until they returned.
I wonder if we should start a new topic somewhere else for the returned merchants and the Captain of the Indiaman.
Crystal :D
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Hi Crystal
I found some reference to Hearsey's & Colluden etc in Hansard at the following link:
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1887/may/16/question-observations
Sante
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That's interesting - I have also found mention of Theophilus Hearsey
http://ksimmon.sasktelwebsite.net/PS03/PS03_198.HTM
Crystal
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Dear Old Rowley,
Sorry to keep pestering. but I am very curious about the Jacobites of the Cumming, Cummins, Reid and Kerr families.
Our family legend says our ancestor Eleanor Cummins, born in Dundee. Whose father “a staunch Jacobite, was killed for his rightful King.” Eleanor was sent to Ireland to be raised. It is said that Eleanor Cummings was the first commoner in the family.
Thank you.
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My apologies Bret I missed reading your posting when you first placed it on the board and since then it has been bypassed by all the other messages that have been added to this thread. I have had a look at the information that I have (not a lot I must admit) and have found referrence to Cumins and Kerr and a Ried rather than Reid but no Keir's.
Again the number before the name is the number given to the prisoner.
623 James Cumins. Died at Tilbury Fort Essex.
624 James Cumming. Pressed.
1455 Donald Kerr. Transported 20th March 1747.
2807 William Ried. Discharged.
OR
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Thank you. Hopefully some day it will all make sense.
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Hi
If and when you have the time please can l have more info on { M'Mudie } listed in the Jacobite prisoners from 1745
Regards
Moody
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Hi Moody,
The only information shown in relation to M'Mudie is as follows
2354 Lachlan M'Mudie Released.
As with the others the number given is the prisoners number that was given to him. Sorry that there is nothing else showing for this person but at least you will know that you do not have to search in the America's for any trace of him.
OR
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Thankyou for help
Moody
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hi
I would appreciate any information you have on MRorie and Strachan.
thank you
regards
Elinga
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Hi Elinga,
I have two Strachan's the first was prisoner 3201 John Strachan who died at Tilbury Fort Essex. I do not have a date for his death but by 11th August 1746 the prisoners (on the list that I have) were incarcerated at Tilbury and a month later it is noted that 45 of them had died, one of which may well have been John Strachan.
The second Strachan that I have is a James Strachan who was noted as being a 19 year old student attending Aberdeen University who was serving in the Duke of Perth's regiment when captured. He, unlike John Strachan, was held at the following place's, Stirling, Leith, Cannongate and Carlisle. The list that I have where James appears is in regards to Jacobites who were banished to the America's aboard the ship Gildart however it does not make it clear if James was on board nor is a date given, one can only assume that he was on this ship.
As for MRorie, there is no one listed by that surname but I do have a Donald M'Rory who is listed on the Tilbury Fort roll as being prisoner 2427. The rest of the information for what happened to him just states "not known".
OR
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thank you very much, I really dont kow if they are mine but will look at them agai later.
thank you again
regards
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Hi,
I would be interested in information on Chisholm, (who I know to have been in the army) M'Donald, Ross and stewart if you have time.
Thank you for the kind offer.
Regards,
Lynda
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Hi Lynda, Hope that this helps. Remember that the number that preceeds the name is the prisoners number when at Tilbury Fort.
489 Donald Chisholm Released 20th 6th 1747.
492 Donald Chisholm Transported 21st 3rd 1747.
There are 28 M'Donald's listed, these being;
1804 Alexander M'Donald Transported
1805 Alexander M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1806 Alexander M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1807 Alexander M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1808 Alexander M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1932 Archibald M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1833 Archibald M'Donald Transported 20th 3rd 1747
1853 Donald M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1860 Duncan M'Donald Discharged
1862 Duncan M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1863 Duncan M'Donald Not Known
1864 Ewwn M'Donald Transported
1880 James M'Donald Transported 20th 3rd 1747
1902 John M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1903 John M'Donald Died June 1746 at Tibury Fort
1904 John M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1905 John M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1906 John M'Donald Transported 20th 3rd 1747
1907 John M'Donald Transported 20th 3rd 1747
1910 John M'Donald Transported 20th 3rd 1747
1924 Owen M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1928 Ranald M'Donald Liberated 4th 7th 1747
1931 Ranald M'Donald Ordered to be transported
but still in Tilbury Fort in the
April of 1747 and may have been
Discharged
1932 Ranald M'Donald Released under General Pardon
1747
1941 Sween M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1943 William M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1944 William M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1945 William M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
Ross.
2900 Daniel Ross Died at Tilbury Fort
2901 Daniel Ross Died at Tilbury Fort
2904 Donald Ross Transported 31st 3rd 1747
2905 Donald Ross Transported 20th 3rd 1747
3175 John Stewart Transported 31st 3rd 1747
old rowley
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Thank you for the info, it is really good. I will check it out and let you know if any are mine.
Regards,
Lynda
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Anytime Lynda, I hope that it helps.
OR
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Hi Old Rowley:
Would be interested in the particulars WRT the one Innes prisoner on your list. Many thanks.
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Hi Innesaj, and welcome to rootschat.
The information that I have for Innes is as follows,
1356 William Innes Transported 31st March 1747.
The number preceeding his name is the number that he had as a prisoner.
I have also found a James Innes who was aboard the "Africa" bound for Barbados as a prisoner (the only one) on 15th July 1716. As a prisoner James would have been indentured as a servant for seven years as part of his punishment. James was one of the 637 who were captured at Preston Lancs on 14th November 1715 after General Thomas Forster surrended his force to the King's army.
OR
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hello sharonboon. am new to this but can inform you that John Coppock, brother to Thomas pretender bishop of carlisle, is in my family tree. Apparently John born 1726 was a drummer boy in the manchester regiment, in which Thomas was the Rev. Chaplain. John was pardoned, reccomended for mercy by jury in carlisle. John married Mary Towneley. He would be my 6th grandfather. Thomas and John had 2 younger sisters, Elizabeth and Hannah, baptised in Manchester cathedral. Their parents were married in Manchester cathedral.
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Hi Old Rowley,
I'm particularly interested in the following names on your list:
Cameron
Innes
M'Gillivray
M'Kie
MacKay
M'Kay
Taylor
Wishart
I would sincerely appreciate any help you can provide in my efforts to see if any of my Scottish ancestors were Jacobites.
Thank you!
Daniel
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Hi Daniel and welcome to Rootschat.
From the list that I have I have extracted the following.
321 Alexander Cameron. Transported on 31st March 1747.
327 Alexander Cameron. Died at Tilbury Fort Essex.
337 Donald Cameron. Transported on 31st March 1747.
341 Donald Cameron. Died at Tilbury Fort Essex.
350 Duncan Cameron. Transported on 31st March 1747.
1356 William Innes. Transported on 31st March 1747.
2005 Farquhar M'Gillivray. Died at Tilbiry Fort.
2090 Robert Mackay. Discharged.
2087 Peter M'Kay. Transported.
2089 Robert M'kay. Transported on 20th March 1747.
2094 Thomas M'kay. Transported on 20th March 1747.
2096 William M'kay. Died at Tilbury Fort Essex.
3251 James Taylor. Released on 13th Februry 1747.
3255 Kenneth Taylor. Not known.
3439 Alexander Wishart. Transported on 19th March 1747.
I have also found the following prisoners who were transported to the America's as indentured servants for seven years in 1716,
Donald Cameron. No date found, Transported to the Leeward Islands (St Christopher).
Donald Cameron. Transported aboard on the ship "Susannah" to South Carolina leaving Liverpool on 7th May 1716.
Finlow Cameron. Transported aboard on the ship "Friendship" for Maryland leaving Liverpool on 24th May 1716.
John Cameron. Transported aboard the ship "Godspeed" (may also have been called "Goodspeed"). No dates or other information found.
John Cameron. No date found. Transported to the Leeward Islands (St Christopher).
James Innes. Transported aboard the ship "Africa" to Barbadoes leaving Liverpool on 15th July 1716.
Further to the above lists I have also found two others, both Cameron's, who were transported aboard the ship "Gildart" in 1747, these being,
Dougall Cameron from Inverness captured at Carlisle. Held prisoner at Carlisle, York and Chester prior to being transported.
Malcolm Cameron from the Fort William area. Jacobite serving in Lochiels Regiment when taken. Held prisoner at Prestonpans, Edinburgh, Cannongate and Carlisle prior to being transported.
hope that the above maybe of help to you.
OR
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Also try the NEW List of Rebels database which is now completed from the Scottish History Society publication A List of persons concerned in the Rebellion transmitted to the Commissioners of Excise by the several supervisors in Scotland in obedience to a general letter of the 7th May 1746; and a supplementary list with evidences to prove the same.
http://books.google.com/books?id=MzKXJ4z5ntQC
With a preface by the Earl of Rosebery and annotations by Walter MacLeod (1890). This database is in the process of being augmented with data from Arnot and Seton's SHS publication Prisoners of the '45 published in 1928.
http://www.yourphotocard.com/Ascanius/Prisoners/Default.aspx
Dave Waddell
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I'm writing a novel based in 1746 Scotland, and my Jacobite prisoners are currently spending time in Tilbury Fort. I am wondering if you might be able to answer a question or two... or more ...
1) I read that it was suggested the men be stripped of their plaids and washed, and also to have their hair cut because of the filth and lice. Do you know if that actually happened? Would they have been supplied breeks & tunics to replace that, since tartan was outlawed?
2) Did they keep the prisoners doing anything during their stay, or were they forced to stay in that dark ammunitions room all the time?
3) The 17 who were lotted to go to trial - how many were executed, and where did this take place? At the fort? Would the others have been forced to watch? Were they hung?
4) I have noticed that some of the men escaped - was it ever said how they got out?
Thanks SO SO SO much!
- Genevieve Graham
(Nova Scotia)
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Also ... Tilbury Fort was surrounded by water - the Thames and a moat. How would they have escaped?
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Rolly, I posted this under the heading 'armed forces' before I saw your heading. I hope you don't mind me repeating it here.
I'm hoping to find Robert Campbell, born 1729 -30. He was at the battle of Quebec. He became a blacksmith and died at Brampton, Cumberland. The following passages are what I've collected to do with Brampton. My question is how can I find out who my Robert Campbell is? Might he be a son or cousin or such of David Campbell possibly a Keithock Campbell?
From the Carlisle Patriot 10 May 1878 of a lecture in Brampton by the Vicar about Bonnie Prince Charlie (1745).
"Another interesting link with that period was old Robert Campbell, the locksmith, still living in Brampton whose father, to use Robert's own words, ""came here with Charlie, and after various other adventures, such as serving under General Wolfe, at Quebec, returned to settle at Brampton, where he died in 1838, aged 109Yrs." (He is on the church records as being a 109yrs old).
The Militar Road in Cumberland, by T. H. Hodgson, these Transactions, n.s. ii, p. 274).
At the funeral of the Carlisle victims, it is reported in a letter written by Lieut. Colonel Howard, Governor of Carlisle Castle, that
Mr. Douglas,
Mr. Graham, the apothecary,
Mr. Lowry and
Mr. Campbell of Brampton assisted publicly , the latter as mourner, the other three as pall-bearers (Lord Albemarle's Fifty Years of my Life).
Whether Campbell of Brampton acted the part of mourner over the Capon Tree victims is not known. It is probable that Mr. Campbell himself had come to Brampton with the Prince, for we still have an old lady living here whose grandfather, Robert Campbell, came to Brampton in the "45 " and settled in the place. Why the Capon Tree was chosen or why the prisoners were brought to Brampton for execution cannot now accurately be discovered.
Selections from the family papers of the Mackays of Bighouse
John Campbell of Barcaldine married Margaret (a daughter of Keithock).
Letter Lord Glenorchy to John C of Barcaldine 9th Oct 1745
"I'm glad the person in whom you say you are nearly concerned resolves to be quiet"
Letter from Lord Glenorchy to John Campbell of Barcaldine 14th Oct 1746
"I've had a letter from Keithock, dated Brampton, complaining of the expense of his long confinement, from which he was discharged, there being nothing against him. I believe a letter which I mentioned to you in one of me letters, helped to hasten it.
Letter from Lord Glenorchy to John Campbell of Barcaldine 3 March 1747
I ask'd Colonel Howard (whom you saw with Gen. Bland at Taymouth) who is just come from Carlisle, the truth of what I wrote to you about Kiethock's Imprudence. He told me that he is not acquainted with him, but that he knows he attended every execution in deep mourning, and show'd many marks of his concern and his disapprobaton of their punishment, and that Brigidier (or Major Genl) J P Lemming, who commanded at that time at Carlisle, being informed of his appearing in solemn mourning at the first execution, sent him a private advice (purely out of good nature, being noways acquainted with him) not to do so again, and be more cautious in his expressions, but he still persisted, and behav'd in general very improperly. This is what Col. Howard told me and several particulars too tedious and not fit for a letter. I am really sorry for his folly.
Cumberland Quarter Sessions FILE - 1746 Easter petitions - ref. Q/11/1/234 - date: 1746
Petition of John Nicholson, High Constable of Eskdale Ward - payment of expenses for arrest and custody of David Campbell Esq. of Brampton, for treason. Nil.
Lyn from New Zealand
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M'Millan (1)
I'd love more details on this entry in the list if the offer's still open.
Thanks,
Regards,
Ann
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Morning Ann, and yes the offer is still open. Unfortunately the entry that I have for M'Millan reads,
Prisoner 2350 Archibald M'Millan. Not Known.
The "not known" relates to what became of him. Sorry that it is not much help to you.
OR.
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Sorry that it is not much help to you.
Morning! ;D
No problem, not come across any Archibald's so far anyway,
Thanks for taking the time to look,
Regards,
Ann
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hi:) my name is Kayleigh :) im from the bahamas :)
i think my name is actually a form of a Gaelic name.. not positive. if anyone know about that i would like to know :)
but recently my grandfather passed away and at the funeral i met family i didnt even know existed!
So that (and reading some good books about scotland.. cant wait to visit one of these days...) made me start thinking about my family.
i have always been interested in old things.. i collect old bottles and things like that.. and so..
i was looking up my grandmother's maiden name and it is MacDonald.
my grandfather's name is Sands and my other grandmother's name is Roberts which my mom found out recently is suposed to be a viking descendant or something. so i dont know but im really intersted.
and i saw the list of jacobite names and was wondering if you could tell me the names of the mac donald men :) and any others you might think im related to :P
i would really apreciate any feedback :) thank you!
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Hiya Kayleigh, and welcome to Rootschat, there are many knowledgable and helpful people here, I am sure you'll make progress!
Looking at the list of boards I do not see one specifically for introductions, though there is one for "beginners" and possibly there should be such a thread there,... you'd catch a wider number of viewers than those just interested in Jacobites.
"Ceilidh" is pronounced same as your name, it means a party, always with lots of singing and dancing.
Your interest in old things is great, collecting and looking at bottles and such from centuries past helps you to learn the context of your ancestors lifes, not just who they were, but what thay ate, what that worked at, what the general interests of the society your greats came from. A good start for your studies.
With genealogy most advise you do not start with an ancient supposed ancestor and try to prove your descent, but rather start with the details you know of yourself, then work backwards; try to find where your granny MacDonald was born, married, died, her parents, and back. If you do have a strong family story of being descended from Jacobites certainly do try to follow descen of the exiled MacDonalds, though keeping in mind your jacobite ancestor may have been a MacLeod or some else, and the story carried down through a granddaughter who married a MacDonald.
In general, MacDonalds were clustered in the south west highlands and islands, though over the centuries they were becoming scattered around the country.
Also in your searches remember that standardized spelling is relatively recent; your ancestors may show up as "MacDonald", "McDonald", Macdonnell, or dozens of variations.
Best of luck in your wee voyage of discovery!
Donald.
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Hi Kayleigh and welcome to Rootschat and the Scotland board.
There are some 28 M'Donald's listed and the number before their names relate to their prison numbers when they where in Tilbury Fort in Essex.
1804 Alexander M'Donald Transported
1805 Alexander M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1806 Alexander M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1807 Alexander M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1808 Alexander M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1932 Archibald M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1833 Archibald M'Donald Transported 20th 3rd 1747
1853 Donald M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1860 Duncan M'Donald Discharged
1862 Duncan M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1863 Duncan M'Donald Not Known
1864 Ewwn M'Donald Transported
1880 James M'Donald Transported 20th 3rd 1747
1902 John M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1903 John M'Donald Died June 1746 at Tibury Fort
1904 John M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1905 John M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1906 John M'Donald Transported 20th 3rd 1747
1907 John M'Donald Transported 20th 3rd 1747
1910 John M'Donald Transported 20th 3rd 1747
1924 Owen M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1928 Ranald M'Donald Liberated 4th 7th 1747
1931 Ranald M'Donald Ordered to be transported
but still in Tilbury Fort in the
April of 1747 and may have been
Discharged
1932 Ranald M'Donald Released under General Pardon
1747
1941 Sween M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1943 William M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1944 William M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
1945 William M'Donald Transported 31st 3rd 1747
Although the above are M'Donald's there is no saying that they will be related to your family. If you are just starting out on your research I would suggest that you place a posting on the beginers board here on Rootschat asking for pointers on how to go about starting. Myself I would start with your own immediate family and work backwards. From there I would then start on your parents and their siblings (if there are any) and also their own parents. You already have some information with the fact that you know that your grandmother was a MacDonald if you know where she was born that would be a bonus and by obtaining her birth certificate it will give you her parents names as well as her mothers maiden name and from there you could take another step back by searching out their marriage certificate. Before you do this try and collate as much information that you can from members of your family as you never know someone may have already started doing some research. Oh and one other thing make sure you note down your source matter as you may need it in future.
Best of luck in your research.
Old Rowley.
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This is my first posting! I am trying to trace a relative of mine, Neil MacLeod, who was imprisoned on the Pamela at Tilbury and then transported. I I notice that there are different dates attributed to the ship, 'Frere' when it sailed to Barbados carrying Jacobite prisoners. One date is 20 March and the other 31 March 1747. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
Thanks
Jan
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Hello - I would be very interested in more details, if you have them, of the Robert Reid who appears to have been executed.
I think this is the Rebel Officer Reid, a merchant and son of Sir Alexander (III)Reid of Barra. If so he is a relative.
There are many others on the lists that will connect to my family - the MacKenzies, MacIvers etc.
Interestingly one earlier poster mentioned an Evander MacIvor - I have a much later Evander MacIver - the factor to the Earl of Sutherland - I wonder if there might be a connection. His mother was a Mackenzie.
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Hi could I have information about the three Sutherlands in the list? Thanks in advance. :)
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Has anyone found a listing for a David Oliphant or Olyphant (surgeon)I can only find one with 7 other prisoners some from the Manchester regement(banished jan 1748), this David could be the one ? none in "no quarter given"
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Thank you in advance I have Nisbets, Simpsons and Wisharts in my tree so if it is 'nay bother' would you kindly tell me what happened to them and any other information you may have.
regards Martyn
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Thank you in advance I have Nisbets, Simpsons and Wisharts in my tree so if it is 'nay bother' would you kindly tell me what happened to them and any other information you may have.
regards Martyn
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Hi OR,when you have a moment could you let me know what it says on McLean,Fraser and Kerr,nay rush laddie,when ye can ;D.
George.
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Thank you in advance I have Nisbets, Simpsons and Wisharts in my tree so if it is 'nay bother' would you kindly tell me what happened to them and any other information you may have.
regards Martyn
John Nesbit with Ecossals Royale ,Turtor,in Falkirk age 21 taken prisoner and transported.Alexander Wishart of Montrose with the Ogilvy"s servant to Thomas webter Montrose age 24 taken prisoner and transported.James Wishart of Fochabers with Gorden of Glenbucket age18 labourer in Fochabers taken prisoner To Carlisle and pardoned for inlisting.John Wishart of Dundee with the Ogilvys merchant.Andrew Simpson of Dundee sailor with the Ogilvys taken prisoner and discharged.David Simpson orSampson of Aulbar age 56 linen weaver taken prisoner transported with Ogilvys.James Simpson of Arbroath age20 shoe maker with Ogilvys taken prisoner transported.John Simpson servant in Forfar with
ogilvys.Patrick Simpson Farmer in Forfar with
ogilvys taken prisoner Discharged.William Simpson of Forfar workman with Ogilvys.James Simpson of Edinburgh clerk with with Grante's artillery writer.
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Hi OR,when you have a moment could you let me know what it says on McLean,Fraser and Kerr,nay rush laddie,when ye can ;D.
George.
there are 69 Mcleans listed can you narrow the search?and 118 Frasers (with an S and two Frazers).Donald Kerr of achnahaird 35 years old farmer with the Earl of Cromartie taken prisoner and transported.Duncan Kerr age 40 of Ross with Cromartie taken prisoner may have died in captivity.Col Henry Kerr of Garden taken prisoner banished
Princes Staff.John Kerr with theIrish Piquets deserted taken prisoner discharged.Robert Kerr with the Ecossais Royales taken prisoner died in prison in 1746. Aeneas
kerr age 40 of Ross with Cromartie taken prisoner may have died in captivity.
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In the book "The Prisoners of the '45", Volume 2,(1929) by Sir Bruce Gordon Seton, I found a reference on pp.66-67 to
"_____ Butler, regiment of Lt. Fitzjames, Prison Career: 21.2.46 "Charite, Berwick, London, Pardoned conditionally on perpetual banishment 20-10-48.
Notes: "Taken at sea, 21.2.46, Scots Mag., Feb. '46. 96. This may have been the Thomas Butler who was pardoned 20-10-48, P.R.3623-28."
I would appreciate any additional information, including the references listed. I am looking for the Thomas Butler born 1720 in Wicklow, Ireland who was an ordinance officer in the British Army. He married Eleanor Parker in 1741. The family says he "got into some trouble" with the British Army, and immigrated in 1748 with his wife and 3 small children to Pennsylvania. He was the patriarch of the famous "Fighting Butlers" of the American Revolution who were 5 officers serving under Gen. George Washington. Could this be the same Thomas Butler?? The name, timeframe, "trouble with the Army" seem to fit. They are my DNA cousins.
Thanks for any assistance.
Mary Butler Arnold
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only a Pattrick in "no quarter given"
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Grant names for PGM.
1122 Alexander Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1123 Alexander Grant Acquitted 16th December 1746
1124 Alexander Grant Transported 20th March 1747
1125 Alexander Grant Transported 20th March 1747
1126 Alexander Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1132 Angus Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1133 Angus Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1134 Angus Grant Transported 30th March 1747
1137 Archibald Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1141 Daniel Grant Not Known
1143 Donald Grant Transported to Barbados 19th March 1747
1144 Donald Grant Transported 20th March 1747
1145 Donald Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1146 Donald Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1147 Donald Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1148 Donald Grant Transported
1149 Donald Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1151 Dugal Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1152 Duncan Grant Transported 20th March 1747
1153 Duncan Grant Discharged
1155 Farquhar Grant Transported 20th March 1747
1157 George Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1159 Hugh Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1160 Ewan Grant Not Known
1165 James Grant Transported
1166 James Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1170 John Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1171 John Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1172 John Grant Transported 20th March 1747
1173 John Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1174 John Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1175 John Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1176 John Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1177 John Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1178 John Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1179 John Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1180 John Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1181 John Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1182 John Grant Transported 31st March 1741
1189 Patrick Grant Died at Tilbury Fort
1190 Patrick Grant Transported
1191 Patrick Grant Transported 20th March 1747
1192 Peter Grant Transported 31st March 1747
1193 Peter Grant Transported 20th March 1747
OR.
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Hello Old Riley,
Many thanks for the Grant names.
Hoping now to find if any of them were amongst the 16men of Glenurquhart and 68 men of Glenmoriston who surrended to Cumberland and were shipped to London and then on to Barbados.
Cheer's for now.
PGM..
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Hi Old Rowley
I would be grateful for the information for the single entry for the surname 'Stephen' in the list of Jacobite prisoners.Many thanks
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PGM, there was a Peter Grant who had fought at Culloden, introduced to George IV on his visit to Edinburgh as "your Majesty's auldest enemy", from the north east though. Skoosh.
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Hi SG.C and welcome to Rootschat.
Unfortunately he entry for Stephen is none too helpful as all it states is,
(prisoner) "3129. James Stephen .....Transported."
no dates or any other information given. Sorry that it is not much help.
OR.
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Thanks very much for prompt reply.That helps as I am looking for an Alexander Stephen,Jacobite rebel transported or escaped from Leith,Edinburgh to America.
Thanks
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Looking for some info on a Captain Andrew Wood a family ancestor I think he was hung at traitors gate in the tower around 1747 or so our family legends say...as far as i know he was from around glasgow area......We have his birth on the family tree but thats all . Does anyone know of him...thank you Alexander James Wood and Robert Andrew Wood
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Welcome to rootschat LL, I haven't got an Andrew Wood on my list but have found the following on the net, a common name but it may be him.
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hdq.html
scroll to about half way down the page until the paragraph that starts with "The 1745 jacobite rebellion......" as there is an Andrew Wood mentioned.
OR
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To Old Rowley, I have been searching for my ggggranfather and his brothers origins forever!! Their names are John and James McKenzie and i saw there were 34 McKenzies on your list. They were Scottish Jacobites and ended up in Ireland in the Wicklow Mountains. They came to Australia in 1807(convicts) but all records of them previously were lost. Are there any records available? All i know is they were tried in Sligo. Hope you can help. Susan from Australia. ???
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Hi Susan,
Do not know if this will help but there is only one James Mckenzie (it is noted down as M'kenzie) on the list that I have and the entry for him is,
(prisoner number) 2151 James M'kenzie, transported (no place given) on 31st March 1747.
For the John Mckenzie entries there are seven given on my list, one of whom died at Tilbury Fort Essex. Like the above entry the prisoner number is given first followed by name then what happened to them with the date of the event last.
Prisoner's by the name of John M'Kenzie
2157/2158/2159/2160/2161 and 2162 all transported on 31st March 1747 (no place given for transportation).
2171 John M'Kenzie, died at Tilbury Fort. No date given.
Not much but it may help as a reference point in the future for you.
OR.
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Hi
I am a little late seeing this site but wonder if you can give me details of the McLeods on your list.
Wish thanks
houston
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Hi Houston, there are 13 Mcloud's (transcribed as M'loud) for the prisoners of the '45 from the list of just over 300 that were held in Tilbury Fort Essex prior to their transportation etc between 1746 & 1750. As before the number given to the "prisoner" is shown at the start of each entry.
2304 Alenander M'Loud Transported 20th March 1747
2305 Alexander M'Loud Transported 31st March 1747
2306 Alexander M'Loud Transported
2313 Donald M'Loud Transported 31st March 1747
2318 Duncan M'Loud Transported 31st March 1747
2323 John M'Loud Transported 31st March 1747
2324 John M'Loud Transported 20th March 1747
2325 John M'Loud Transported 31st March 1747
2326 John M'Loud Transported 31st March 1747
2333 Murdoch M'Loud Transported 31st March 1747
2324 Murdoch M'Loud Transported 31st March 1747
2337 Rory M'Loud Transported 31st March 1747
2338 Saunders M'Loud Transported 31st March 1747
There was also a Kenneth McLoud who was imprisioned at Edinburgh and Carlisle who was transported out on the Gildart bound for the America's in 1747.
No doubt there were more McLoud's that were captured and sent abroad after the '45 but as I have said before my list(s) are only a small fragment for all of those taken prisoner.
OR.
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I see that there are 45 GRANTs listed. I was told by a fellow researcher of GRANTs who settled in Glengarry, Ontario, Canada after the American Revolution that the GRANT family from which my husband descends were among those prisoners. I am confused by this assertion. Weren't the Jacobites fighting for the Roman Catholic cause? If that's correct, then it is unlikely that ours were Jacobite prisoners as the ones who settled in Glengarry, Ont. were Elders in the Kirk of Scotland. Can anyone clarify this? (I supposed conversion is possible, but aside from that?)
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Joy, the majority of Jacobite supporters were probably Episcopalians, then RC's and also Presbyterians. In the '45 the Grants of Glen Morrison joined the rebellion and some of the Laird of Grant's tenants in Glen Urquhart. A lot of these guys weren't actually named Grant. The bulk of the clan in Speyside were on the side of the government.
Skoosh.
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Thanks! I guess that takes away my main concern. Now if I could only identify which Grants mine were! Most of the Grants who settled in Charlottenburgh, Glengarry, Ontario were from Glen Morrison, but sorting them out is a major headache. (It would help if every generation in every line didn't use the same six given names! ???)
The line is believed to come down from Alexander Grant, b. 1689 Sheuglie, Urquart, Glen Morrison, who with his wife, Isabel Grant d. at Tilbury Fort. Their daughter, Marjory married another Alexander Grant, b. 1733 and had a son, Donald Alexander Grant (always referred to afterward as Alex), b. 1755 who is an 1802 Crown grantee [our Grant grantee, of course] settler in Charlottenburgh. After that, tracking them gets easy.
Any idea how I can learn which Alex Grant at Tilbury Fort was the right one? I'm not convinced the information I was given is correct.
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Joy, I'm looking at this list of Grants in MacDonell of Glengarry's Regiment, there weren't enough of them to form their own regiment. Grant of Sheuglie must have been one of the clans gentlemen, he has three sons listed amongst the officers,
Alexander Grant = escaped.
Patrick
Richard = killed at Falkirk.
I don't see Sheuglie himself and there are a further seven Alexanders listed in the "Other Ranks".
Skoosh.
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Thank you again, Skoosh.
Unfortunately, I have only the names of two daughters, so can't connect to the sons' names.
I've been trying to become better educated about the Jacobite prisoners and have found a listing online that seems to include about 300 apparently at Tilbury Fort. There are five Alexander Grants on the list, one of whom was acquitted 16 Dec. 1746 and the others transported (unknown where). Nothing I've found shows women and children, though all the sites I've looked at say they were imprisoned along with the men.
The birth dates for the family group I am researching make me wonder whether the story about imprisonment can possibly be true. I am pasting the tree below (spelling as given to me). If, as in the tree, both Alexander and Isabel died at Tilbury Fort, where was 11-year-old Marjory? Unless she stayed behind in Scotland, I can't see how she could have survived and made her way back to grow up and marry. Family lore doesn't mention transport and marriage in, for instance, Barbados.
The more I look at this, the less likely it seems to me to be accurate.
1 Alexander GRANT b: 1689 in Sheuglie, Urquhart, Glenmoriston, Scotland, d: Tilbury Fort, Essex, UK; Jacobite prisoner
... + Isabella GRANT m: 19 Oct 1713 in Inverness-shire, Scotland, d: Tilbury Fort, Essex, UK
.....2 Hannah GRANT b: 1717
........+ ? GRANT
.........3 John "Dundreggan" GRANT, Esq. b. abt 1737 Dundreggan, Glenmorrison, Inverness, Scotland, d. 2 Oct. 1802, Williamstown, Glengarry, ON, Can.
.....2 Marjory GRANT b: 1735 in Scotland, d: Sep 1812 [My husband's line]
+ Alexander GRANT b: 1733 in Scotland, d: 22 Oct 1791
........3 Donald Alexander GRANT b: 1755, d: Jun 1840 in Williamstown, Glengarry, ON, Can.
+ Anne (Nancy) CAMERON m: Bef. 1792, d: Bef. 1828 in Williamstown, Glengarry, ON, Can.
.
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There's quite a bit of stuff about Grant of Sheuglie, Glenurquhart, online. The laird in the 1760's was a James.
He seems a bit long in the tooth to be marching to Derby, what part did he play I wonder. Did he stay home and hang on to the estate?
Shocked that there were women & children in this fort. Who were the savages I wonder?
I'm half a Grant myself Joy, Mid Ross, back to a George Grant, Urray about 1790, stuck at that I'm afraid.
Have you tried the National Archives, http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Joy, been rummaging! Sheuglie did indeed keep out of the rebellion but was lifted anyhow. Post Culloden, the Laird of Grant with 800 Speyside men invaded Urquhart & Glen Morriston and arrested those who joined the rising, transportation was the result for most.
Skoosh.
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Skoosh, if you want to see how horrible Tilbury Fort was, take a look at this multi-page site I found: http://www.thurrock-community.org.uk/historysoc/jacobite.htm Note especially the passage about the attempt to provide sanitation. I will take a look at the archives. (I'm in the U.S. It didn't occur to me).
Joy
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It wasn't really a religious cause, more political
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/civil_war_revolution/scotland_jacobites_01.shtml
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Sancti, thank you for sending this!
It makes the history much clearer for me.
(The last paragraph reminds me of how people in the U.S. romanticize the losing cause of the South in our Civil War).
Joy
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does anyone have any names ie carmichael from the first jacobite rising
many thanks
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Greetings Everyone
With regard the Jacobite uprisings of 1715 and 1745 I am searching for anyone with the surname "Glennie" and particulary from the Aberdeen / Aberdeenshire region
Would appreciate any assistance.
Thanking you in anticipation.
Alex G
New Zealand :)
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Alex, found this in "No Quarter Given." The Forfarshire Regiment (Ogilvy's), Peter Glennny, weaver, Coupar Angus, submitted at home.
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Skoosh
Greetings to you. Much appreciated, thank you.
Alex G :)
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Hi Rowley;
I was hoping you'd be able to provide a reference for this Tilbury list you came upon back in 2008. I've been unable to find it noted anywhere within this thread. Is it a manuscript source, or something printed in later years in a compilation, perhaps? Archival or digital?
Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.
Kind regards,
Darren S. Layne
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Old Rowley, I am very much interested in your list of Scottish Jacobite prisoners transported to America. My family were Grants and the first ones we have a name for appear in South Carolina in 1751. I would love to have the info you mentioned on Grants listed in the manifest, and what happened to them. I hope to make the connection across the pond with my ancestor.
Thanks for any info.
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From the NAS website
Jacobites
The trials of Jacobites captured after the 1715 and 1745 rebellions took place in England and the records are held by The National Archives. However, the High Court of Justiciary records include material on Jacobite treason trials, 1748-9 (JC7). Useful printed works include:
• 'A list of persons concerned in the Rebellion' (Scottish History Society, 1890);
• David Dobson, 'Directory of Scots banished to the American plantations' (Genealogical Publishing Company, 1983);
• 'The prisoners of the '45', edited by B G Seton and J G Arnot (Scottish History Society, 1928-1929)
• T B Howell, 'A complete collection of state trials' (London, 1816) vols. XV and XVIII.
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Mauriel, the Grant's of Glenmorrison joined the '45 and fought in their neighbour MacDonnell' of Glengarry's regiment, Patrick Grant of Glenmorrison himself served as a major.
The laird of Grant and the bulk of the clan were on the Hanovarian side. After Culloden the Glenmorrison men surrendered to the laird of Grant, no doubt thinking he could pull a few strings, much good did it do them, transportation was the order of the day.
Skoosh.
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Thank you Santi and Skoosh. Good info, and I hope it can help me decipher whether my Grants fought for rebels or king. The naming pattern in our family has always been James, John, or Robert. So those are the first ones I look for when reading about the loyalties.
This is a great thread, I have learned so much about sources available in just a few hours!
Mauriel
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From the NAS website...
Not sure if your response was aimed at me Sancti, but I was specifically looking for the list that Rowley had been referencing throughout this thread. The NAS' suggestions for publications to start is solid, but of course the Treasury Board Papers and State Papers offer much more if some work is willing to be done. Would love to know the origin of the particular Tilbury list that Rowley has in his possession, if at all possible.
Cheers,
Darren
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Just a general response for anyone who is researching this period in their family history 8)
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Some names of those transported are listed here from page 37
http://www.yourphotocard.com/Ascanius/documents/Jacobite%20Gleanings%20from%20the%20State%20Manuscripts.pdf
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Thanks for that Sancti, just finished reading it, good stuff.
Mauriel, Grant DNA programme, a possible alternative to a missing paper trail?
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~grantdna/kit-backgrounds.html
Skoosh.
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I am looking for information about an ancestor who may have stood trial and was transported after the 1745 Jacobite uprising. His surname was Davidson, first name John or John Joseph. Can anyone who has access to lists check on this for me? Family information and other data has it that he came over on a ship in the mid to late 1740's landed in Maryland and then eventually ended up in NC and Georgia but background info is very sketchy. Any input would be welcomed; I am at a dead end.
Thank you!!
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Wowen
I have just sent you a PM. Reply by e mail if you would and I will send some information to you.
Cheers
Alex G
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Reply sent, thank you!!
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Wowen
Have sent you I think 5 e mails with information. The 1st e mail was split into 3 parts making 8 in total.
I see one has come back to me .. my anti virus tipped it out.
I will post the link here for you :- http://www.royalstuartsociety.com/links.html
Best of luck
Alex G
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Hi if the offer is still on could you possibly check firstly on Robert Anderson of Whitburgh . who was first imprisoned in Carlyle and then released. He was Quarter Master General in the Jacobite army. Also could advise on any other Anderson's in the rebel army that were imprisoned .
Many thanks in advance. bye Ellecat
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Hi Old Rowley
I may have strayed in to the wrong area here.
I am looking for my GGGGGGreat grandfathers cousin
John Duthie,
He was in Ld Ogilvys Regiment but where as his cousin was at Culloden and withdrew with the Regiment he was taken prisoner at Carlisle and it says"Died ?"
is there any mention of a trial or any other documents at all or where to go to find them?
Is there a burial ground?
Regards
Alistrair
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Hello Old Rowley,
I have just seen your post re Jacobite prisoners. Could you let me have a list of the Grant names please? Many thanks.
Susan 42
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HI, if you have any information on the one Scot you listed, I would very much appreciate it. Thank you, Susan
susan.brouillard@yahoo.com
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Hi there. Would it be possible to let me have information on the Grants, please? I would be grateful for anything you have. Thanks
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Thank you for your kind offer: anything on Stewarts, Gordons and MacIntoshes please. Misha.
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Very helpful old rowley.
Five Hoods fought at Culloden; I would be interested in the Hood in your list.
Alan Hood
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My name is McNair and we were with the MacLachlans and I have been told that we released after being taken prisoner. A woman called Henrietta MacLachlan was a kinswoman who was following her husband who was a Campbell and officer in the Independent Companies. She pleaded with him as the men were related to her and he let them go. Where can I verify this?
Many thanks
Bob McNair
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My name is McNair and we were with the MacLachlans and I have been told that we released after being taken prisoner. A woman called Henrietta MacLachlan was a kinswoman who was following her husband who was a Campbell and officer in the Independent Companies. She pleaded with him as the men were related to her and he let them go. Where can I verify this?
Many thanks
Bob McNair
Hi Bob, The Independent Companies were on the British side; I just googled 1745 The Independent Companies and this link came up: http://www.clan-macrae.org.uk/scotland/history.cfm?ID=3
That gives some clues.
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Thanks Alan... I knew that. I was trying to say that the Campbell officer spared my anscestor.
I just meed some more information about the incident.
Thanks for your help though
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Thanks Alan... I knew that. I was trying to say that the Campbell officer spared my anscestor.
I just meed some more information about the incident.
Thanks for your help though
Sorry, I didn't read it carefully enough. The book "No Quarter Given - The Muster Roll of Prince Charles Edward Stuart's Army 1745 - 6 Should have his name in it, if you know his regiment, or you can troll through the while book. This book gives a few extra clues. The book Fight for a throne - the Jacobite '45 reconsidered by Christopher Duffy contains an enormous amount of detail including various incidents at various locations, and this might add more clues
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Ill get a hold of the books Alan.
Thanks again for your advice.
Best Wishes
Bob
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I would like any information available on the McAlpin listed
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I have this book, there were 150 names in the MacLachlan muster-roll, but sadly only 20 odd listed here, mostly the officers & no MacNair .
Skoosh.
No index unfortunately but I've been through each regiment and don't see a MacNair, that means nothing as this book is far from comprehensive.
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could I ask you to check for the McAlpin? His name was Donald, I presume he died at Tilbury as there appear to be no court records of his trial.
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If he MacNair fella was released by this Campbell it must have been before he was formally made a prisoner so wouldn't appear listed amongst those who were!
Skoosh.
Air1mtm, do you know what regiment Donald MacAlpin was in?
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Duke of Perths Regiment
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This looks like him, Donald MacAlpine, 50, duke of Perth's Regiment, carrier for Sir R Clifton's Works, Perth, taken, died!
Ref' Seton Gordon, "Prisoners of the '45" Scottish History Society, Edinburgh 1928.
The only MacAlpine I can find. Welcome to RC.
Bests,
Skoosh.
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thank you for the welcome. I assume he died at Tilbury? He was taken there, and there were no court records.Many died of typhus while there
It is only recently that I found that he was taken from Inverness to Tilbury, I always thought he died on the field.
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Thank you for posting the list. I am looking for more information on the McLeod. Any information you can provide would be very helpful.
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I have been looking at the list of Jacobite prisoners posted here for James Neilson. He is not listed but his name does appear in the catalogue entries for three consecutive lists in the National Archives:
SP 36/79/1/28 'Prisoners take at Carlisle' 1745
SP 36/80/1/3 'Return of the Scotch Rebel garrison at Carlisle' 30 December 1745, and
SP 36/92/1/81 'List of rebel prisoners on whom the lot has not yet fallen...' November 1746.
Does anyone have any experience of these lists in the National Archives or know if they have been published? Can anyone suggest what might have happened to James Neilson?
Joe
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I have been researching Walter Mitchell Prisoner 21 who was a witness in the case of the King against Donald McDonald who was charged with High Treason. Mitchell was pardoned in 1747 after being sentenced to death on 15 November 1745. Wondered if anyone had any info as to what happened to him after that date. Thanks
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Lord Ogilvy, the Earl of Airlie’s Forfarshire Regiment, 2nd Battalion Flag
Read through thread and thought some of contributors would like these images..
Regards
Mark W
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Original, both housed in McManus Gallery's Dundee...
https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-sc-cu.html
When the battle ended, the defeated regiment retreated south to Glen Clova, where it was disbanded. Oral history legend has it that Captain John Kinloch, who carried the flag at Culloden, then hid the banner at Logie House, near Kirriemuir. Given that all the Jacobite flags captured by the Hanoverian troops at Culloden were taken to Edinburgh and burnt, it's amazing that this banner has managed to survive....
Hope you like...
Regards
Mark W
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Stewart of Appin's banner also survived Culloden, seventeen men died carrying it and it was carried from the field wrapped around the body of a Donald Livingstone. Now in the National Museum?
The list of prisoners "on whom the lot has not yet fallen" might refer to men drawing lots to be hanged?
Skoosh.
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Thank you for sharing the details about the flags. A flag and sword allegedly remained in the keep of one of the Mitchell family from Sunderland for many years.
Also it is correct that the prisoners drew lots and a Mitchell unluckily drew the lot. This is recorded in the National Archives.
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Hi All, including Joy. The 8th Chief of Glengarry Scotland, Donald McDonell, married daughter of 9th Chief of Clan Ranald [a MacDonald], and their sons headed the McDonell lines [that we in Glengarry Ontario Canada, still refer to as] Leek, Collachie, Aberchalder, Ardnabie, Scotus, Lundie, etc., McDonell lines. These were Catholic [many were Officers at Culloden], and emigrated enmass to NY, in 1773 on Ship "Pearl", later [after Rev War] resettled Glengarry Ontario. This Donald McDonell 8th Chief Glengarry, had daughter Catherine McDonell who married Duncan Grant 1630 1730, who was 1st GRANT to hold Wadset of Duldraeggan Glenmoriston [he was Protestant] and when this Duncan died in 1730, the Courts declared his great-grandson Aeneas/ Angus Grant 1702 1779 to be his Heir at Law. This Aeneas/ Angus Grant was married to Hannah Grant 1717 1801, mentioned in Joy's earlier Post. I believe Aeneas/ Angus' brother was John Roy Grant b. abt. 1704, was Transported to Caribbean and probably did not return, but fathered Joy's Alexander Grant [and Donald Grant Sr. Lot 13 SBR]. This makes these McDonell and Grant cousins who intermarried often. Cheers J.
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Hi, I’ve just started tracing my ancestors and I’ve found a few with surname Urquhart from Poolewe and Gairloch. I wondered if they might have been at the battle of Culloden, any info would be greatly appreciated.
Kind regards, k