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Research in Other Countries => Canada Lookup Request => Canada => Canada Lookup Requests Completed => Topic started by: perth tiger on Thursday 31 January 08 05:24 GMT (UK)
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hi
im looking for any info on this family.
we think they went to canada between 1891 and 1901. the nearest we have found is mention of them on the ship tusian from liverpool 19/7/1900 landing in ohio 28/7/1900. on that ship is daisy and rose muller 1891 and 1889 respectivly. their parents where dead and they could have travelled with a group of bernardo girls. also looking for alexander muller 1882. there is a marriage for a daisy muller to frank edward freeman in ontario. they where all born in middlesex.
any additional info would be great
thanks
perth
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Hi,
I have found Daisy in 1901 on the census as a Domestic in the home of Thomas and Mary Hutchinson in the District of Durham East and the subdistrict of Cavan. Daisy's birthday is listed as 2 Mar 1890 and she reports coming to Canada in 1900.
There are a number of Frank Freemans in Ontario in 1911 but none are married to a Daisy. I am unable to see Daisy in 1911 and have also been unable to find any trace of Rose or Alexander.
Beth
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thanks beth, is there any sign of lily muller b abt 1897
perth :)
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Daisy and Rose were indeed Barnardo's children, and you may be able to get info about them from the Aftercare department (presuming you are a relative):
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/what_we_do/work_with_former_barnardos_children.htm
Do you have a list of all of the children? So far we've mentioned:
Alex, 1882 (depending on when his parents died might have already have gone out to work and not have been in care)
Rose, 1889
Daisy, 1891
Lily, 1897 (would have been too young to send to Canada when her sisters went, may have gone later or have been kept in care in England or have been adopted out or have been taken in by family etc etc etc)
What were their parents' names? This is important as in some records (i.e. Ontario marriages) the parents names will be listed. If you give mother's maiden name it makes it easier to find them even if Muller is misspelled (as Miller, etc).
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This looks like the family on the 1891
Adam Muller, age 39
Emily Muller, age 30
Charles, age 12
Elizabeth, age 11
Alexander, age 9
Rose, age 2
living in Mile End Old Town, London
Karen
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Possible marriage
Adam Muller and
Emily Kemp
AMJ - 1877
Bethnal Green, London
Karen
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Okay, well, Adam appears to have died in 1892.
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/g/r/a/Valerie-Gray-Lincs/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0005.html
- this suggests that daughter Elizabeth was Elizabeth Emily Muller and gives full birthdates for the children. At least the eldest son, Charles, who remained in England, changed the surname to Miller.
In 1901 there is a Rosa Miller, b. 1888, listed as 'daughter' to the Beaulieu family in Quebec, although the couple are only 27 and 20 and obviously recently married.
(District: QU LAVAL (#163), Subdistrict: Sault-au-Récollet P-2, page 13)
Wondering if this might be Rose?
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possible marriage although out of district
BMD Marriage Sept. 1922
Lily Muller ( ___Fletcher not listed on page ) Hartlepool / vol. 10a p.360
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although if Adam died in 1892, I am not sure where Lily came from or is this a cousin?
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Daughter is shown as Emily here as well on the 1881
Adam Muller age 30 / Germany occ. Seal Skin Dryer (Furrier)
Emily Muller age 22 /St Lukes, Middlesex, England
Charles age 2 / St Lukes...& Emily age 8 months / St Lukes
Lots of Emily but there's this marriage Sept. Q 1918
Muller Emily E ( William G Gosney on page)
Newhaven vol. 2b p. 527
~~~~~~~~
I am not sure why all children are listed as Miller on the above site as all births appear to be as Muller...
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hi everybody thanks for your help my friend posted this for me , as I was not sure how to do it .
I do have the census records the reason for the name change is my grandfather Charles Muller did not want anybody to know he had a German Father, in fact nobody knew till I started this research.
I do have Daisy's Birth Cert and according to that she was born 22/3/1891 so that could be her.
I have now written to the Barnados Office in Ilford hope I'm lucky.
I have been in touch with a surviving Daughter of Charles Muller and she remembers quite clearly one of the sisters who remained here writing to the girls in Canada, she also says one married a Teacher of Languages and the other a Doctor .
Is there any way to find out any more thanks very much.
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forgot to mention parents were Adam Muller born Germany abt 1852 died 1892 Mile End
Emily Kemp born 1857 think she died in 1893 in Islington awaiting Death Cert.
Cannot find Alexander anywhere either after 1891
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Hi eeyores4me and welcome to RootsChat ! :)
This is just a little aside .... but if your relative was a doctor you may be able to get some information here .... they ask for a donation .... they were very helpful to me and a few other people on here !!
Tina Craig ( I just found out Tina retired but I'm sure her successor will be able to help you ! )
Deputy Head of Library and Information Services
Royal College of Surgeons of England
35-43, Lincoln's Inn Fields
London WC2A 3PE
Tel: 0207 869 6520
Fax: 0207 405 4438
http://www.rcseng.ac.uk/contact/index.html#library
Annie :)
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thanks very much nice to be here.
The Doctor in question married one of my girls not sure which Daisy or Rose.
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Hello Eeyores4me
Daizy is found on the 1911 census with her first husband William Read.
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=137422
1st Marriage to William Read
Bride: Daizy Lillian Pope, 19, spinster, English Church, usual residence Peterborough
(she doesn't know her parent's names, came out to this country through Barnardos Homes)
Groom: William Henry Read, 21, bachelor, farm hand, usual residence Peterborough, baptist, parents John H. Read (labourer) & Jane Read
Married March 17, 1910 at Peterborough by license
Witnesses: Katie Webb & Janet Londors (both of Peterborough)
Marriage solemnized by J.R. Webb
Linda
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Hello again
Her 1st husband died in WW1 April 25, 1917
Husband of Daisy L. Freeman (formerly Read), of 149, Centre St., Stratford, Ontario
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Detail&casualty=618337
Linda
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I was just of to bed when I saw this thanks so much Linda do you think thats her then??? shall copy and paste this and look further into it tomorrow thanks so much
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hi
im looking for any info on this family.
there is a marriage for a daisy muller to frank edward freeman in ontario. they where all born in middlesex.
any additional info would be great
thanks
perth
Going by your original information. The Ontario marriage record has a widow Daisy Lillian Read marrying Frank Edward Freeman April 30, 1919 at Stratford. She lists her birth place as Eastbourne, England and lists her parents as William & Alice Pope of Perth. The first marriage she goes by Pope, but doesn't know who her parents are and is a Barnardo's Home Child.
Where did you get the original saying Muller married Freeman?
Linda
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Wow Linda, Excellent Work!!!!
Karen
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Thanks Karen. It may not be right though. It's very confusing this one as Beth's find of Daisy on the 1901 census as a Domestic in the home of Thomas and Mary Hutchinson, in District Durham East, subdistrict Cavan has her name listed as Muller. Daisy was not living with the Hutchinson's on 1911 census. How can she not know her name in 1917. I think we need to know where Eeyore's Freeman-Muller marriage comes from.
Linda
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hi again and thanks , my info came from somebody on GR but the more I look at it the more I am sure shes wrong
My Daisy was definitely born in Mile End .
I do wonder if she went by the name Lilian , as my Aunt tells me that the two girls that were sent to Canada were called Rose and Lily , not Daisy
All I know is one of the Sisters ,who they called Doll, so I would think that is Elizabeth the eldest one, was living here and my Aunt used to visit her and she used to read out letters she got from the girls.
She also insists one married a Doctor and the other a Teacher of Languages.
Thanks so much for your help much appreciated.
Oh and by the way I got the Death Cert for the mother Emily Muller today and its the wrong one so still not sure where and when she died .
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There was a Daisy Pope arrived in 1901, aged 11, on the Home Children database. This might be the one who married Read/Freeman.
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hi and thanks for your reply according to the ship records she went in 1900 could that be a mistake ????
I wonder why would they change her surname if she was not adopted ??
I assume she was not adopted because if she was she would not have been sent to Canada .
I might go and see if any other Mullers were sent there.
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Hello eeyore
At least we can rule out the GR info as incorrect.
This may be Daisy's birth entry, especially as you say she went by Lillian:
Daisy Lilian Muller
Jul-Aug-Sep 1892 quarter, v. 1d, p. 815
County: London, Surrey, District: Camberwell
Linda
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HI eeyore,
It wasn't uncommon for a surname to be changed. Some had no memory of what their original surname was :(
The passenger list would be correct for that entry.
Karen
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The Mullers are on the home children index as well, in 1900 - so Daisy Muller and Daisy Pope are two different girls was the point I was getting at:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/archivianet/home-children/001015-100.01-e.php
Re: the Rosa Miller in the Laval area of Quebec in 1901, in 1911 the family she was living with in 1901 have moved to:
1911 / Quebec / Jacques Cartier / 53 St. Laurent / page 9
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I did see that birth for a Daisy Lilian Muller but discounted her as I have a Birth cert for a Daisy Muller which is the right one unless of course there was another ???
Maybe I'll send for that one too ???
I did notice there was another Daisy Muller on the census records so maybe they are related in some way ????
Thanks for all your very helpful replies
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I would think that you have the correct birth certificate and don't need to order that one for Daisy Lillian Muller :-\
Karen
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thanks Karen thats a few bob saved then
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If Lily was born in 1897, how could her father be Adam if he died in 1892?
Karen
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which Lily are we talking about Karen I meant Daisy Lilian born 1892 the same year her father died
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thanks beth, is there any sign of lily muller b abt 1897
perth :)
This one? Or was that just a wrong date added ???
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Ok, switching over to Alexander for the moment
This looks like him in the 1901 born 1877 in Poplar listed as a servant in London
He is listed as Alexander Miller
RG13/349/70
Karen
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oh sorry that was my friend who posted this for me he made a mistake
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once again Karen I thank you , I did see him but his birth is 5 years out so unless he lied which of course is possible I am not sure its him but will look into it
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Could be his birth, as on the 1891 says he's born in Poplar
Alexander Muller
1882
Oct/Nov/Dec
Poplar
Vol. 1C Page 62
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hi Karen I do have his birth cert thanks , I cannot find him after 1891
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Have you determined if the Daisy who was perhaps married first to a read, then 2nd husband died ww1 was your Daisy?
i see on another posting that you have received more information ? Can you post it here, on your query? Thanks! J.J.
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hi not yet as a kind lady at the other Barnados office I emailed has said she will check for their marriages .
I received a reply from Barndos about Daisy and Rose saying when they went and where they were living in 1907
it is definitely the right girls, am waiting now on photos from them.
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Hi, this is another posting with Rose found in Quebec 1911
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,293466.0.html
and another with the marriage cert
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,290380.0.html
so if Daisy was also in Quebec, then the one they searched for on this thread was not the correct one?
Please keep the sites for home children up to dfate, as if anyone else is searching they need to find correct information...
also I link to them in the Canada resources thread for home children, so please let us know if we have bogus information posted.
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I wish to thank everyone for their kind help, I now know where when and who Rose married, also about her daughter also Rose, and the fact her Husband was a Lumberman.
Thanks to the help on here..
I am still looking for what happened to Daisy after the 1911 census where she is living with the Hutchinson family in Durham East County Ontario.
Any help gratefully received
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I don't believe that we had her in 1911...just in 1901...
This is getting incredibly confusing, as it is a long thread, and we like to work on the BHC, but need to know the facts...would you be so kind as to make a little summary of what is known thus far, so that we, or those also searching, can also use the information
Myself, I threw my notes out on this some time ago as I am sure others did as well...I have enough trouble keeping up with my own :D J.J.
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I am sorry you are quite right you did find Daisy on the 1901 census not the 1911
I know ,thanks to kind people on here, that Rose Muller did arrive in Canada with her sister Daisy on The Tunisian in 1900.
Rose married a Daniel Bremner and had a daughter also Rose aged 8 months on the 1911 census records.
Daisy was found on the 1901 census living in the same Lansdowne Avenue as her sister a few doors away.
After that nothing.
I would dearly love to find out more about Rose , for instance did she have more children and when and where she died.
I of course would also love to find out what happened to Daisy.
I have since found Alexander still in the UK so not looking for him now thanks .
I also am not too sure about there being a Lily at the moment so am dismissing her for now,
Hope this clears up whats happened so far.
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I think you need to read all your notes through and also all the threads through, and then make a sheet of what you know for sure, as there is so much conflicting information it is hard to get to the grit of it...For instance, wasn't Daisy found in Ontario on the 1901? and then was found to be Quebec in 1907 ( not 1901) through your Barnados replies...as reported on your other thread?
:D
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Was hoping to establish a proper surname for Daniel.... but...
Bremner is what it said on the 19011 census, but on the marriage it said Brimmer...and husband Daniel was born Quebec of Scottish ancestry...( well it says Scotch, but isn't that a drink?) Even Daniel's own handwriting seems to have a dot & appears to be written as Brimner....
This must be the family in 1881, Banlieue, Que. as "Brimer"
1375847 / C-13211 / 79
John - Scottish age 23 b. Quebec Laborer CoE
Georgianna - French age 23 b. Quebec Catholic
( children all down as Catholic, born Quebec )
John - age 4
Daniel J. - c. 1879
Wm. Jos.- Born Mar.
Again as Bremner in 1901...with five more siblings...( set of twins!)
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=83237&highlight=25
and his family in 1911 as Bremmer...so no further ahead....but may have a maiden name for the mother ( Auger?)
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=116996
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oh thanks so much , I had read it wrong and thought that Daniel had been born in Scotland!!
I am not very good at reading the Canadian census records, where did you see the name Auger ???
I know its Daisy in 1901 not sure about what happened to her after ?? I do wonder if she migrated somewhere else.
I think your right shall have to sit down and sort something out thanks so much for your help much appreciated
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The name Auger is on the direct transcription ...if you go to the link I gave you in 1911. The image looks to be right, as other A's are made that way, and he has a distinct "y" He may have been thrown off by her using another surname....as he seems to change his hand there... Auger is an old Quebec name...
If you follow the images on the censuses... ( see the split screen above ) to the right of each name there is more information, religion, occupation, etc...
In the older census they put down the age next birthday, but the ones in the 20th century are the age last birthday...
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thanks very much shall have another look
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:-\ Hmph! I had a whole bunch of Montreal directory listings for you and they went south when I went to post...suffice it to say that although Daniel is written as Brennan in a few of them, for the most part...He is down as Bremner, same address as the 1911 minus the ½...also around the mid 1920's or so he moves to 58 Cadillac if memory serves me well...He is always down as occupation labourer... ;D
So I think Bremner may well be the correct name, then...
Can't find Daisy no matter what I do...even tried to find her using the age and just Daisy on A****try...but none panned out...
Hopefully you can find a marriage for her in Montreal somewhere from 1907 on
J.J.
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It just occurred to me, though, that wouldn't she have been down as a witness if she was still there in 1909? Oh, well...must try it anyway... J.J.
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jorose just recently found this site with a database for Mont Royal cemetery...
http://www.mountroyalcem.com/products_services/genealogy/index.aspx?lang=en-CA
There is a Daniel Bremner on it, died 1935 ( (10/09/1935))...and I did notice looking at the directories every fiive years, that the entries did stop around then...so this may well be his internment...but if the Rose on it is yours, she lived to be almost 100!
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thanks very much for the new info
I just checked but they wont let me buy outside Canada
If I paid somebody on here would you get the info for me please on both Rose and Daniel ???
I would not be surprised if she lived to a good age my nan lived to be 99, I did wonder if thats their daughter Rose ?? maybe unmarried .
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Actually Daniel Bremner disappears from the directories earlier than that...I was looking for someone else, and so peeked in again...but I will let you go look for yourself, as it is amusing...
around the same time that he disappears a Daniel Brennan ( that's what they called the other in a few earlier ones) appears...
so.... is this a son being mistranscribed, or your Daniel??....Hard to say, as they move from 58 Cadillac as well, so you need to take notes and look at every year if you feel so inclined...
I can't do the buy for you...sorry...hopefully someone can....I think it is weird that they charge but won't do international charge....a money order is a money order...If and when it clears they could do the lookup then...but not much can be done about it...
as I said before, though there is a lookups site I gave...have you gone there....
If you contact them they are really great ...well, I know my husband was really pleased with the information he got from them a few years ago....and all free....
J.J.
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thats interesting , I will look into that further I could not understand that site maybe I was tired or something will have another look thanks so much for all your help
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Janice gives instructions...
Then go through alphabetical listings for the name Bremner ..You'll know it is he by the Address from the 1911 - 165 St. Martin ( Later 58 Cadillac) The lower listings for Cadillac disappear later in the directories, so either they are demolished for a Mall, or renamed something else...I'll let you find something on that....
Then if you can't find him just cross reference with the Street listings for the same year...If he is listed there, you'll know he was misstrancribed....so go back and look under other "Br" listings for him at that address...write down the name as misstranscribed for your own records....I know I saw something like a Brenner or Bremmer at that Address....
Have fun! J.J.
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Hi and thanks , dont know about fun though ??? I'm starting to want to disown this family !!!
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well that was my Daniel and my Rose she lived to be 101 isnt that wonderful???
Some kind person got the burial details for me and my aunt who lives in the USA is going to go and see the graves hopefully .
I have also found somebody researching the Bremners so have got in touch with him too.
So a big thanks to everybody I have found out so much.
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Good job that you didn't disown them, then! ;D
I wonder if the John Daniel or Daniel Bremner might also be related...
Maybe one day a marriage for their daughter Rose Bremner may turn up...
Or someone may look into this thread who is a descendant....It has happened!
Glad that we could help...There are some fabulous sleuths on here and they dig in to find as much as they can for people...
all the best, J.J.
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Hello
Rose Eileen Bremner born October 15, 1910, baptised March 26, 1911
Parents: Daniel & Rose Bremner
Godparents: David Edward Bremner, Elizabeth Bremner
Church: St Laurent (Anglican Church Saint Cuthbert)
Daniel if of the City of Montreal and his occupation is lumberman, so could explain his missing from city directories, as he might be in the lumber camps.
Linda
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thanks JJ I would not disown them really what else would I do all day ???
and thanks Linda wow thats great so Eileen was her middle name so is mine !!!!
I cant thank you enough
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See what I mean?? ;D
and, of course Linda, (HI!!!) you are probably right, I was thinking more along the lines of working in a lumberyard....
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Hi JJ & Val
Bet there might be some other children born. If he was in the lumber camps, there might be births elsewhere besides Montreal city area.
Another daughter of your Rose:
Mildred Georgina Bremner born June 8, 1916, baptised November 5, 1916
Parents: Daniel Bremner of the City of Maisonneuve & Rose Muller
Sponsors: Kate London, Fred London
Church: St-Jude (Anglican), Montreal
To add to Janice's death date. Here are details for Daniel Bremner, 6090 Lafontaine St, Rougue Point died at the Montreal General Hospital September 10th, 1935. Funeral service held at the Parbours, A.R. Guindon, 1629 Main St., Maisonneuve on Septemer 12th to Hawthorndale Cemetery
Montreal, Quebec - Ste. Marguerite (Anglican), Maisonneuve
Linda
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Re reply # 55, a typo
Daniel if is of the City of Montreal and his occupation is lumberman, so could explain his missing from city directories, as he might be in the lumber camps
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oh Linda you are wonderful thanks again I could kiss you !!! at this rate I will be visiting their grandchildren soon !!
I cant thank you enough .
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,302528.0.html
as per link
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Hi eeyores4me
Would you like the cemetery Monument inscription for Daniel and Rose?
Polarbear
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have you really got that ?? WOW yes please thats so kind of you thanks
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Hi again,
I am going to send the inscription by PM b/c there are some comments that may relate to living people.
Polarbear
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Once again congrats to all who worked on this old home children thread
Photos of the children have been posted here:
http://magazine.familytreeforum.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=5:august-2010&id=84:barnardo-children-ancestors
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yes thanks everybody for all your help
I have all info on them now including their burials
Both girls were placed with families in the same street as domestics, Daisy at 551 Lansdowne Avenue, Montreal with Thomas Hutchinson, a farmer, and his family, and Rose at number 542 with William Campbell and family.
Rose married Daniel J Bremner, a lumberman, on 22nd November 1909 in Quebec. He had been born there on 4th March 1879. They had at least two children, both born in Quebec, Rose Eileen on 15th October 1910 and Mildred Georgina on 8th June 1916. Daniel died on 10th September 1935 in the Montreal General Hospital. Rose died at the grand old age of over 101 on 9th December 1989 at Manoir Trinité Centre D’Accueil, Longueuil, Quebec. Both Daniel and Rose are buried at The Hawthorn-Dale Cemetery in Montreal.
Daisy married Lewis Wilbrod Larin, a salesman, on 14th August 1926 in Montreal, Pointe-St-Charles (Presbyterian Saint Mathew), Quebec, and died 27th July 1956 at Putnam Memorial Hospital, Bennington, Vermont.
I understand from a surviving aunt that the children corresponded with their family in England for some time.
I am also lucky enough to have obtained these photos of the girls on admission to Doctor Barnado’s.
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I thought that you meant you had all info from what had been found up to and until their deaths...
Did you ever have contact with some descendants? Still a chance they might find your queries one day. Looked for them 1921 to see if there are more children with them
Dan & Rose lived at 55 Cadillac according to directories before during and after the 1921 census...
But they must be really badly transcribed or written as can't spot them
adding: found them transcribed as BRANANAR ( looks to be Bramnar) in Mercier and Maisonneuve Ward, used no surname, keyword Cadillac ...the census says he was at 58 Cadillac, (and for some reason also says he & his parents were born Ontario...so exact search for Que. didn't help :D) Dan 42 Rose 20 Aline 10 Meldred 5
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01agf/
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You hadn't mentioned this, so am posting:
Rose Eileen Bremner and Rolland Goulet Married in 1941 in Montréal, Quebec
She died Jan. 11 2007... descendants named but I won't list them as they are likely living
http://www.federationgenealogie.qc.ca/avisdeces/avis/pdf?id=268504
Goulet (nee Bremner), Eileen 1910-2007 At the Visitor Centre Marcelle Ferron Brossard, January 11, 2007, at the age of 96 years, Goulet Eileen (nee Bremner), wife of the late Roland Goulet. She is survived by her son R. Goulet (R. Duchesneau) grandchildren R. (E Seguin) and T., his great grandson R. Goulet , sister Mildred (the late Gaston Pillette) several nieces and nephews and other relatives and friends.
sister Mildred (the late Gaston Pillette) must mean the husband of Mildred, who has passed on...
Not sure if this might be his marker, Mount Royal Cemetery, no age or birth date given
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=109044819&ref=acom
1921 shows a Gaston Pilette in Mercier and Maisonneuve Ward
Adrien Pilette 37, Aline Pilette 32 childrenGerard 11, Gaston 9, Antonio 2, Thérèse 6
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A memorial written for Gaston's mother Aline shows wife as Mildred, names a son, his wife and their two children
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1946&dat=19800430&id=khQyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=aaQFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1136,5224172
And yes Gaston Raymond Pilette was the husband of Mildred, who now has three grandchildren in 1984
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1946&dat=19841108&id=EEUwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=paUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3602,4833457
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thanks so much JJ for all that extra info ,I did try and contact Rose Mullers Grandson but he did not want to know sadly, :'( maybe I will try one of the other relatives you have found now thanks again. :)