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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: ukdescendant on Monday 04 February 08 19:11 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I have access to ancestry but am struggling to find my relatives on the 1841 census in Wrexham (Abenbury to be exact) and I wondered if anyone knew whether there are pages missing ? They were there in 1838/9 according to an historical directory and my 3xGG was born in the Red Lion Inn at Kings Mills in 1844 but so far I haven't managed to find the family.
Thanks
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Hi there
Its missing unfortunately >:( >:(
Piece 1408 -Flintshire/Parish: Wrexham (part) Township:Abenbury Fechan
(part or all of the piece is missing)
Sarah :)
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Hi Sarah
Do you know if there are copies at the Denbighshire library or anywhere else ?
Thanks
Gill
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Hi Gill
They are missing from the world - not just Denbighshire archives and Ancestry. I think they were damaged or lost when the reponsibilty for censuses passed fron the Home Office to the GRO in the 1850s.
The two Wrexham town ones have been recovered but that's it - sorry. We are all very sad :'( :'( :'(
Gadget
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Gadget
You can't be as sad as me :'(.
My 4 and 5x GGrandfathers owned an iron works there and I was hoping to find more of the family. What a shame !
Thanks for the reply though.
Gill
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It might be worth going into the Denbighshire archive site and doing a search by name or Iron works. We have learnt to become quite imaginative in our quests.
Oh yes - I am probably even more sad than you because most of my ancestors were in the area by then.
Gadget
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Thanks again Gadget,
Barlow wouldn't be in your tree then would it ?
I'll have to make a trip there, I did go and see the Red Lion which is where my 3xGGrandfather was born in 1844 but the family moved to Liverpool very soon after and I'd like to find out why. They were listed in the Historical directories in 1828/9 and 1835 so had been there for a while but then suddenly seemed to up sticks.
Regards
Gill
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No Barlows!
It might be worth you becoming a member of the Clwyd FH Society :
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/
if you're not already.
They have a vast collection of parish record transcripts and knowledgeable people and a research centre.
Gadget
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Gadget
I'm not already a member but have just had a quick look and their parish registers look worthwhile buying for me at least so I think I'll take your advice and join.
Thanks again
Gill
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I'm not in a position to check at the moment, but I think Wrexham 1841 may be the one bit of census that never made it to the GRO in the first place, but actually managed to survive. I'd suggest you email the Family Records Centre and ask them about it.
frc@nationalarchives.gov.uk (http://frc@nationalarchives.gov.uk)
I think they hold a transcript, and the original (or a contemporary copy) is held locally.
Or I could be completely wrong, and am just having a senior moment, but I don't think I'm hallucinating.
Mean_genie
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Hi Genie
You are completely wrong - sorry :)
Clwyd FHS have been discussing this for years.
The two Wrexham town ones have been recovered but that's it - sorry. We are all very sad :'( :'( :'(
Gadget
Gadget
Added - I see that you're not a regular to our area. When we talk about the Wrexham census we mean a large number of Districts in Wrexham area (NE Denbighshire and bordering Flintshire districts). All these are missing. The two town ones, as I said, were missing but were found in a junk shop in Wrexham and digitised and put on CD by Clwyd FHS.
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Genie,I have been struggling with my Jones Families in the area for quite some time now,and its made all the more difficult,having to cope without the 1841 census for the Wrexham area.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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Hello Gill, If you give me some names and dates I'll see if I can find anything in the archives.
Paul :)
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We will have to wait for Gill to come back to us Paul,but I have found a James Barlow born in Chirk in c 1802,an Ironmaster living with his Wife Sarah given as born in Wrexham in c 1804.They were living at Bridge Street Wrexham in 1851,with the following children all born in Wrexham;
John born c 1827.
Sarah born c 1835.
Georgina born c 1838.
Benjamin H born c 1842.
Robert N born c 1844.
Trevor born c 1847.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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I'll have a look at the Chirk registers in a moment or two ;D
Gadget
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Nearest that I have is:
Chirk bpt. July 12 1799, b. 9th July. James Barlow, s/o Richard and Dorothy Barlow, The Forge
Note - the Forge at Pontyblew was where my Parrys who were forgemen/ironmasters where, so it looks promising.
There are lots of Barlows in the Chirk registers. I'll wait to hear from Gill but can give her lots of names and dates, etc. without poor Paul moving an inch :D
Gadget
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Nat Lib Marriage Bonds show:
Sarah Hughes of Wrexham and James Barlow. Nov 29th 1824 at Wrexham.
I think this might relate to Gill's other thread :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,283693.0.html
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Sorry, I'm on a roll here :o
Chirk marriage, Dec 26th 1780
Richard Barlow (made his mark) and Dorothy Price (signed), both of Chirk by Banns, witnesses John Jones and Richard Davies.
Gadget :)
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Although Richard Barlow show as being 'of this parish' at his wedding, he doesn't seem to have been born there. From a quick look at the IGI, Lancashire seems to be the most likely place of origin!
No sign of Dorothy's baptism either :(
That time was a period of quite significant movements into the area. Two of my lines arrived in Chirk around then - from Shropshire and Staffordshire.
Gadget
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No burials for them either :(
However, I've just found two female Barlow marriages a few years after Richard and Dorothy's:
Feb 7 1783 - Charles Griffiths of Llanbadarn Fawr to Margaret Barlow (Licence) - one of the witnesses was Dorothy Barlow
Oct 11 1783 John Jones to Arabella Barlow - Banns
All the other references appear to be children of Richard and Dorothy.
Gadget
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Hi and thank you all.
John Marshall Barlow was born in 1844 at the Red Lion ,Kings Mills, Wrexham.
His father Thomas married Sarah Marshall in 1837 but I do wonder if this was a second marriage as Sarah was much younger than him according to the 1851 census when they were in Liverpool.
Thomas married again whilst in Liverpool and after Sarah's death and on the marriage certificate his father was listed as James. I don't have any information on James at all.
A cousin several times removed (I'm not good at working out the numbers) believes that James was married in Chirk to Elizabeth.
She sent me this but to date I haven't been able to confirm, it would be great if either of you could help me . I think Richard may be related perhaps he was brother to James .
Thomas had many siblings all born in Wales Chirk
James married Elizabeth 13/6/1788
Mary 1789, John 1791, Catherine 1794, Sarah 1796, Elizabeth 1799, Richard 1801 Then they moved to Abenbury nr.Wrexham and Anne 1804 James 1805 and Thomas 1806.
Thanks
Gill
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The only Thomas baptised Chirk is:
9th June 1793 (born 1st June) - Thomas Barlow to Richard and Dorothy, as above.
I have located an Arabella Barlow (see also above), as an IGI patron submission - 28th December 1756, The Forge, Staveley, Derbyshire. Parents James and Elizabeth Barlow. This might well be where the family originated.
Gadget
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I've just found a James and Elizabeth Barlow having children at the same time :D
Here's the list -
13 Sept 1789 Mary (b. 17 August) - here it lists James as forgeman :)
Nov 20 1791 - John (b. 27 October)
Jan 19 1794 Catherine (b. 4 Jan) - residence down as Halton (close to Pontyblew Forge!)
July 3 1796 - Sarah (b. 15th June)
17 Feb 1799 - Elizabeth (b. 18 Dec 1798) - now listed as the Forge :D
1st march 1801 - Richard (b. 13 February) - Forge
Our families are most likely to have known each other and worked together ;D
Gadget
Added - James and Richard seem to have named their children similarly, so there must have been some relationship :)
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Here's a picture of the Forge as it is today: the water used to flow down from the Brynkinallt area and through the Forge to the Ceiriog. It's now part of a garden, as you can see.
Gadget
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and James and Elizabeth's marriage :D
June 13th 1789:
James Barlow (made his mark) to Elizabeth Harrisson, both of Chirk, By Banns, Witness was Richard Davies (probably a Church Warden as he witnessed many marriages) and unknown.
Gadget
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The Har(r)is(s)ons were at the Forge much earlier than the Barlows .
I have a possible bpt. date for Elizabeth:
31 March 1766 Elizth (b 14 March) to John (Forgeman) and Mary
:)
Gadget
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I've gleaned everything that I can from the Chirk Registers on the Barlows. Here is a summary - some of which is mentioned in previous messages. I would think that the four elder Barlows were siblings but we have no evidence.
Barlows in Chirk
Marriages
26 Dec 1780 Richard m. Dorothy Price
7 Feb 1783 Marbaret m. Charles Griffiths
11 Oct 1783 Arabella m. John Jones
13 June 1789 James m. Elizabeth Harrisson
Baptisms
Children of Richard and Dorothy
11 Nov 1781 unknown. b. 2 Oct
2 May 1784 Mary b. 23 April
26 Dec 1789 Robert b.22 Nov
30 April 1792 John b. 8 March
9 June 1793 Thomas b. 1 June
14 Aug 1794 Anne b. 13 July (as Barlo)
12 July 1799 James b. 9 July
Children of James and Elizabeth
13 Sept 1789 Mary b. 17 Aug
20 Nov 1791 John b. 27 Oct
19 Jan 1794 Catharine b. 4 Jan
3 July 1796 Sarah b. 15 June
17 Feb 1799 Elizabeth b. 18 Dec 1798
1 March 1801 Richard b. 13 Feb
Burials
19th May 1792 John Barlow. No age is given. It could be either of the Johns b. to Richard and James - 1791 or 1792.
Pontyblew Forge
During the time the Barlows were there, the lease was held by the Lloyd family of Plas Madog, Ruabon. In 1798 the lease was taken over by Francis Johnson.
I'll do a thorough search on the Harrissons/variations later today and put them up for you.
Regards
Gadget
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Hello Gill,
Born Sep 30, baptised Oct 27 1844 John Marsall S/O Thomas and Sarah Barlow. abode, Abenbury, Wrexham. Fathers occupation, Forgeman.
Baptism Feb 14 1838. Mary Elizabeth.
""""""" Oct 2 1840. Sarah.
John's siblings ;)
Ive got to nip out...be back soon.
Pau
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Hi Gill
Following on from the Barlows of Chirk, I've now investigated the Harrissons.
Harrisson/Harrison of Chirk
Elizabeth Harrisson m. James Barlow 1789 (see above posting)
Baptisms:
March 31 1766 Elizabeth (b. 14th March) d/o John (forgeman) and Mary
Aug 2 1767 John (b. 29 July) s/o John and Mary, Forge ( buried June 13 1769)
Nov 24 1769 John (b. 24 Nov) s/o John (forgeman) and Mary
July 21 1771 William (b. 19 July) s/o John (forgeman) and Mary
July 29 1783 Anne and Elinor (twins b. 18 June) d/o John and Mary
Burial
March 6th 1813 John Harrison , The Forge, aged 70 - therefore born circa 1743
The earlier records are a bit 'hit and miss'! What i have found is that there were Harrisons in the area much earlier:
St Asaph Notitiae of 1681
Penyclawdd (which was broadly the same area )
John Harrison and his wife
Also a record of some early baptisms (1668 - 1680) of children of John and Jane Harrison.
Hope this is of use to you.
Best regards
Gadget
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If you click on this link:
http://www.llgc.org.uk/Notitiae/nll_s327.htm
you should be able to scroll through the pages and find the Harrisons listed in the Chirk Notitae :)
Gadget
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We will have to wait for Gill to come back to us Paul,but I have found a James Barlow born in Chirk in c 1802,an Ironmaster living with his Wife Sarah given as born in Wrexham in c 1804.They were living at Bridge Street Wrexham in 1851,with the following children all born in Wrexham;
John born c 1827.
Sarah born c 1835.
Georgina born c 1838.
Benjamin H born c 1842.
Robert N born c 1844.
Trevor born c 1847.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
I found that family on the 1841 I think it could be Thomas's brother.
Paul.
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Paul
It's Thomas's cousin, I'm 95% sure - read all the stuff that I've put up. ::) ::) ::)
Gadget
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Born June 10 1805. baptised June 16, 1805. James.
Born Sep 4 1806. baptised Oct 5 1806. Thomas.
Both Sons of James and Elizabeth Barlow. Forgeman. Abenbury.
Pigot's directory 1828-9.
Barlow & Sons (Iron) Abenbury Forge.
I know your all cousins where you come from Gadget :P
but where I come from two boys with the same mum and dad makes you brothers 8)
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If you read the thread, James is down as being born in Chirk
We will have to wait for Gill to come back to us Paul,but I have found a James Barlow born in Chirk in c 1802,an Ironmaster living with his Wife Sarah given as born in Wrexham in c 1804.They were living at Bridge Street Wrexham in 1851,with the following children all born in Wrexham;
John born c 1827.
Sarah born c 1835.
Georgina born c 1838.
Benjamin H born c 1842.
Robert N born c 1844.
Trevor born c 1847.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
I found that family on the 1841 I think it could be Thomas's brother.
Paul.
Gadget ::)
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Hi and thank you all.
John Marshall Barlow was born in 1844 at the Red Lion ,Kings Mills, Wrexham.
His father Thomas married Sarah Marshall in 1837 but I do wonder if this was a second marriage as Sarah was much younger than him according to the 1851 census when they were in Liverpool.
Thomas married again whilst in Liverpool and after Sarah's death and on the marriage certificate his father was listed as James. I don't have any information on James at all.
A cousin several times removed (I'm not good at working out the numbers) believes that James was married in Chirk to Elizabeth.
She sent me this but to date I haven't been able to confirm, it would be great if either of you could help me . I think Richard may be related perhaps he was brother to James .
Thomas had many siblings all born in Wales Chirk
James married Elizabeth 13/6/1788
Mary 1789, John 1791, Catherine 1794, Sarah 1796, Elizabeth 1799, Richard 1801 Then they moved to Abenbury nr.Wrexham and Anne 1804 James 1805 and Thomas 1806.
Thanks
Gill
I must be seeing things I thought the last two lines read. Moved to Abenbury nr Wrexham and Anne 1804(born May 19 baptised June 12 )
James 1805 and Thomas 1806.
I accept your apology Gadget and we'll say no more about it 8)
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Paul
I have spent all today looking at Chirk registers for Gill's Barlows. I have found the marriage of James to Elizabeth and their children. I've also found Elizabeth's ancestors.
Read the thread through very carefully. The Barlows were in Chirk and then moved to Wrexham. Gill is trying to locate them in Chirk as well.
Gadget
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A simplified summary of the relationships:
Gill's ancestor was a Thomas, who was born Wrexham. His parents were James and Elizabeth who had moved from Chirk to Wrexham in the early 1800s. I found their marriage (1789, Chirk - James Barlow to Elizabeth Harrison) and the children that they had in Chirk.
Previously, William had found a James ( b..1802 in Chirk) m. to a Sarah (b. Wrexham c. 1804) on the 1851 census. Their marriage licence is recorded on the Nat Library site. - a James Barlow and Sarah Hughes. This James (born Chirk) is most likely the son of another Barlow (Richard and Dorothy) who was likely to be the brother of James, father of Thomas.
Ergo the Thomas was James's cousin.
The Barlows were brief residents of Chirk - say 1780 to 1802 but their early history is recorded in the Chirk registers.
The Harrisons have a history in Chirk since before the St Asaph Notitiae.
Gadget
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Hello everyone
This particular thread I find intriguing because I now know why I have spent some very frustrating times looking for my ancestors from Cefn Mawr in 1841. Their name was John and Amelia Brellisford and he was a butcher. Am I right in assuming that Cefn Mawr records are all part of the Wrexham one that have been lost?
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Unfortunately for me also mig,Cefn Mawr is among the Census records for 1841 that are missing.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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Hello,
I recently joined Rootschat and came across your message regarding your ggg Grandfather and the Red Lion Pub. My ggg Grandfather was was a Publican at the Red Lion and also a Forgeman. On the 1851 census it has him as Inn Keeper and Forgeman. His children were born there including my gg Grandfather. Because the 1841 census is missing, I don't know when he went there. My gg Aunt was born in 1844 at the Kings Mills and there was a son John born about 1840/41 but have not managed to get a certificate for him. My relatives were called Morgan, I wondered if you had come across them.
Regards,
Ruby1945
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I had the same issue with 1841 missing for Sontley in the parish of Marchwiel . I found by looking at the Tithe maps dated 1842 that the person I was looking for was listed as an occupier of a named property and his father was the landowner.
The maps are at A N Palmer centre.
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Thanks Wilcoxon, will try the Tithe Maps.
Ruby1945
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In the British Library Newspapers Online(subscription service)
Copyright - Gale Cengage Learning
There is a report of two weddings on the same day of the daughters of James Barlow,Ironmaster,Gwersyllt
I trust this limited generalised information does not offend copyright/policy but is sufficient for you to pursue your own enquiries should you wish to do so.
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Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), February 18, 1848; .
Wm Rowland of the Anchor Inn Satlney to Sarah Frances Elizabeth eldest daughter of JB
Mr Philip Young , British Iron Company , near Ruabon to Mary Parry second daughter of JB.
They married at St Giles, Wrexham on Feb 8th.
Hope this helps.
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For mig,in case you have not seen them-there are two records for Brellisford in the University of Wales Aberystwyth marriage bonds archive(www.llgc.org.uk),the first one obviously relevant,the second unknown
1.John Brellisford,Selatyn,Shropshire,1833 Mar 15,at Rhiwabon,Amelia Brown
2.William Brelllisford,widower,Llangolllen,1809 Mar 24 at Ll. Sarah Edwards
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Thanks Wilcoxon and Despair, I think they will be my John Marshall Barlow's cousins so will go and have a look.
Thanks again
;D
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Hi Gill,
JM Barlow (b1844) was my GGx2. I'd really like to know why they moved to L'pool as well as any other info you can share.
Not able to PM you for some reason.
Many thanks.
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Hi, you need 3 posts to be able to send a PM, so make another post and you should be OK.
Just reply to this :)
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Thanks! I checked again this morning and posted a couple of rambling posts, so I now have the power to PM! Thank you for your help.
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Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), February 18, 1848; .
Wm Rowland of the Anchor Inn Satlney to Sarah Frances Elizabeth eldest daughter of JB
Mr Philip Young , British Iron Company , near Ruabon to Mary Parry second daughter of JB.
They married at St Giles, Wrexham on Feb 8th.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Wilcoxon, this is of help to me too... Believe William Rowland to be my 2nd great grand uncle - did not have a maiden name for Elizabeth/marriage date - thanks.
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hi gill just started looking into the barlows for my sister in law .g,farther charles ellis barlow , g.g. john marshall barlow them thomas barlow . thanks for all the info you have gathered it`s been a great help . do you have anymore on the red lion inn . were they living there ? and do you know why they closed the iron works ? barbara
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hi unsearch , can`t send personnal message on this site if you send me your e.mail via pm. I`ll get in touch . sister in law is daughter of ronald , youngest son of charles ,but I will have to ask her if she wants me to give any personal info out . do you know any more about the red lion inn ,at kings mills ,wrexham were john marshall barlow was born , and were did ELLIS come from in charles name ? lemondog