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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: rthom on Wednesday 06 February 08 18:12 GMT (UK)
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I would greatly appreciate expert opinions on the surname of the father given in the following birth certificate from London in the 1860s:
(Frederick Steventon ---sall?)
I would also be interested in opinions on the place of birth and address of the mother Fanny Steventon:
(Henry Passage? Hampstead Heath? Hampstead?)
Thanks, rthom
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Could the name be Driscoll?
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Hi Mike:
That's a possibility. I was thinking the first letter was "D".
I'm afraid I have absolutely no information on Frederick who came to light only recently as the named father on Priscilla's out-of-wedlock birth (hence the deletions).
Regards, rthom
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Place of birth looks like Henry Passage, Hapstead Road, Pancras.
Checked on FreeBMD March Q 1860 Priscilla Steventon, Pancras, 1b, 29
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When and where born: 15 Feb 1860, 4 Hen...y passage
Name and Sex: Priscilla, Girl
Father Frederick Steventon (Steventon crossed out, ...sall inserted)
Mother Fanny Steventon, formerly ... (formerly is crossed out)
Occupation of father = squiggle, crossed out
Informant: Fanny Stevenson, Mother, residence 4 He...y passage, Hampstead Road, Pancras
Date reg. 27th March 1860
If you can post up the missing bits at a higher res., I'll have another go...
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The Squiggles next to the crossings out ( columns 4 & 5)are a 2 and 3 which will tie up with notes made I believe in the original register.
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I see the 2 & 3, it's the bit in father's profession that's a mystery - can't tell if they started to write something and crossed it out, or if it's another reference to a footnote...as we alredy have 2 and 3, maybe it's a 1?
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I've magnified it and it might even be a 4 ???
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Father Frederick Torsall?
need a higher res. scan of that bit...
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I've magnified it and it might even be a 4 ???
It's not like the 4 in the address, though - lower case "g" ?
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Hello Fisherman & Brambletye:
Many thanks for wading in on this one. I'm afraid I am already working from a scan of a reissued birth cert but will try to improve the resolution of the important parts and repost. I am intrigued by those footnotes.
Regards, rthom
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Here are the names:
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Torsall/Torsell or Dorsall/Dorsell, so far as I can see - how about the address, is it Henry Passage, or will we have a crack at that too?
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Here is the address:
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Here is the place of birth:
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Can't get anything out of this I'm afraid - but I have a Victorian Street Atlas, bear with me...
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There was a Henry Street, Hampstead Road, St.Pancras, so I guess Henry Passage might be somewhere on Henry Street ???
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Thanks, Mike.
There's a 4 Henry Passage mentioned here in what appears to be Pancras:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~bobmorris/3309.htm
rthom
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Wow, same address!
... just scanning the map, won't be long...
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...still trying to post the map, can't even get a file less than 150k to upload on the site at present, not sure why...
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This is Henry Place, just south of Henry Street, in 1888, marked in pink - might have been Henry Passage in 1860, or that might be the stub to the east or south of it.
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Hi Brambletye:
Thank you so much for running this down. Looks very likely.
Regards, rthom
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An address search in the 1861 Census on www.FindMyPast.com shows that 4 Henry Passage in Pancras (Christchurch) existed at this time.
rthom
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Henry Passage fell within Enumeration District 19 of Regents Park (a sub-district of St. Pancras).
Here is the description of the Enumeration District:
Little Charles St. Hampstead Road
Brook Place
Henry St. Hampstead Road 16 to 22 and 23 to 28
Stanhope St. West Side from 1 to 121 (double nos)
Mary St. Hampstead Road
Henry Passage
Jennifer
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Hi Jennifer:
Thanks very much for the info. It's reassuring to confirm that Henry Passage existed! The next challenge we have is to track down the Frederick named as Priscilla's father.
Regards, rthom
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The Reformatory on Henry Passage (see above) caught my eye. This may not be a coincidence as Fanny Steventon was, ahem, less than 17 when Priscilla was born. I'd be interested if this Reformatory rings a bell with anyone reading this thread. I have posted a request for information on the London site:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,284301.0.html
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who so kindly took the time to help with this puzzle.
rthom :)
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I just received the 1861 census record for the Henry Passage Reformatory and it appears to be for MALE inmates only. So I'm pleased to say that the thought that Fanny may have been at the reformatory is unfounded. ;) ;)
rthom
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In 1861, 4 Henry Passage accommodated 4 households (17 individuals) - the GILLS, MOSSES, CHAMPION and DAWSON families. So it doesn't look like an institution, but perhaps a rather crowded, sub-divided house.
Anna
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In 1861, 4 Henry Passage accommodated 4 households (17 individuals) - the GILLS, MOSSES, CHAMPION and DAWSON families. So it doesn't look like an institution, but perhaps a rather crowded, sub-divided house.
Anna
Possibly not even sub-divided - it might have been what used to be called a "rookery".
Several families, one or two rooms apiece, shared facilities if any...
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Hi Anna and Brambletye:
Thanks for this. :)
If we are right about that number "4" in the address, this doesn't provide any real clues as to why Fanny should have given birth there in 1860. Maybe one of the women was a friend of the family and a discreet midwife?
A year later, in the 1861 Census, Priscilla, 1, is recorded living with her Steventon grandparents at 57 East Street, Marylebone [RG09/73/26/50]; and Fanny, 17, is a servant at 28 Albion Grove West in Islington [RG09/128/3/12].
Regards, rthom
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Hi Anna and Brambletye:
Thanks for this. :)
If we are right about that number "4" in the address, this doesn't provide any real clues as to why Fanny should have given birth there in 1860. Maybe one of the women was a friend of the family and a discreet midwife?
A year later, in the 1861 Census, Priscilla, 1, is recorded living with her Steventon grandparents at 57 East Street, Marylebone [RG09/73/26/50]; and Fanny, 17, is a servant at 28 Albion Grove West in Islington [RG09/128/3/12].
Regards, rthom
Home births were the norm in them thar days, but Fanny might have been living elsewhere and just gone there for her confinement - and as she is a servant by 1861, she is having to earn enough to keep herself and the child, while her parents look after it.
Not too different from 1961, then...
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Yep! :)
There are family anecdotes that Fanny was taken advantage of by a gentleman of higher social standing -- possibly the master of the house where she was a servant before 1860. Hence the real interest in seeing Frederick (---) named on Priscilla's birth certificate. Evidently, this whole episode was a closely guarded family secret, which may account for Fanny's remote confinement.
rthom
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I think this (below) may be her original registration (before the corrections and re-issue). Obviously she would originally have been indexed under her father's surname, before it was deleted from the certificate.
Priscilla ENSALL Mar 1860 Pancras 1b 29 (note page number is the same as the STEVENTON registration)
Anna
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Looking for candidates: in 1851 a 35 yr old Frederick ENSOLL is a widowed linen draper at 22 High St, Marylebone: HO107/1487 folio 146 p37
Anna
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ah...ENSOLL/ENSALL... it didn't look like an "E", but the writing is so bad...
I think avm might be onto something here, I've had another look at the scan...
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Hi Anna:
Thank you so much. You are an absolute star!! :) :) :)
Now we have a name to chase up. The plot thickens. 8) 8) 8)
Regards, rthom
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I see that Frederick Ensall on Marylebone High Street was a mere stone's throw from where young Fanny was living with her family in Great Barlow Street, Marylebone in 1851. Great Barlow Street seems from Greenwood's map to be the road now called Cramer Street, running parallel to the High Street, just one block back.
HO107/1488 folio 90 p5 (for the Steventons in 1851)
Entirely possible that Fanny was sent to work either in the draper's shop or to help Frederick (a widower with 3 children at home in 1851) around the house.
Anna
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Marriage (IGI extracted):
Frederick ENSOLL
Mary Ann STANFORD
13 May 1835 St Martin in the Fields, Westminster
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Death:
Mary Ann ENSOLL Mar 1845 Pancras 1 257
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Phew! Fits.
Three more for the pot:
birth: Frederick Ensoll, Mar Qr 1843 Bloomsbury 1, 62
marr: Frederick Ensoll, Dec Qr 1860 St James 1a 593
death: Frederick Ensoll, Sep Qr 1862 Marylebone 1a 275
rthom
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The 1860 marriage is of a young Frederick - he and wife Caroline (IGI gives her surname at marriage as Nayler, marriage date 6 Nov 1860) are 19 and 17 respectively in 1861:
RG9/176 folio 48 p41 (as ENSELL)
They are living in Soho. His age doesn't rule him out as Fanny's paramour but there isn't the obvious geographical connection. He gives birthplace as Lambeth in 1861. (He is a draper, just like the Frederick in Marylebone - coincidence? or somehow related? IGI gives father of young Frederick, per marriage entry, as Richard Ensoll)
Anna
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Agreed. Seems to point more to the widowed draper. Haven't found him in 1861 yet.
rthom
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Fred the widowed draper (indexed on at least 2 versions as Fredrick EUSOLL) and daughter Eliza are still at 22 High Street, Marylebone in 1861:
RG9/71 folio 3 p 2
Anna
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Boy Anna !
You're on a roll .... good hunting !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Annie :)
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She certainly is on a roll!! Many thanks, Anna! :) :) :)
Frederick and five other ENSOLL linendrapers appear in the 1852 London Directory, including the Richard mentioned earlier (see below).
I noted that the Charles J. and William living with Frederick in 1851 are recorded as his nephews.
A Charles J. ENSOLL later appears in the 1884 London Directory as a Linen Draper at 27 Balls Pond Rd.
rthom
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Ah - I completely failed to notice that Charles J. and William were nephews in 1851.
IGI has Charles James Ensoll's (extracted) baptism as son of Richard and Mary:
Birth: 25 OCT 1840
Christening: 04 APR 1841 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London, England
and this looks like William's baptism - also IGI extracted:
WILLIAM THOMAS ENSOL
Birth: 14 FEB 1839
Christening: 20 MAR 1839 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London, England
Parents:
Father: WILLIAM ENSOL
Mother: ELIZABETH
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Louis Ensoll, linen draper, was bankrupt in 1850:
http://tinyurl.com/yqsl5q
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...and Richard Ensoll, draper, was in the bankruptcy court in 1846:
http://tinyurl.com/2h5ay8
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Many thanks yet again, Anna, for the inspired digging. :) :) :)
With the shared occupation, the Ensolls were probably a tight-knit family group, perhaps even more so with the bankruptcies. The snapshot in 1851 tells us that the cousins were close. It is therefore probably wise not to completely rule out the young cousin Frederick as Fanny's paramour eight years later. Fanny Steventon and Old Frederick's daughter Eliza were about the same age and may have been friends -- and one thing led to another if young Frederick was visiting in 1859...
Is it possible that bastardy order papers were filed for the case? If so where might these be located?
rthom
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Hi rthom
I know this post is a bit late and you've probably found out more info. already however, thought this may add a bit of story for you.
The Times newspaper, October 28th 1839 reports that a lady (Maria Lancaster) was charged for shoplifting. The man who reported the attempted theft, of some linen, was a Mr Ensall, Linen-Draper in Broadstreet, Bloomsbury.
Came across this whilst searching for my partners family (Ensall).
ensalookin
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Hi ensalookin:
Thanks for this. It definitely looks like one of the Ensall linen-draper clan in Bloomsbury -- 20 years before the "event."
Regards, rthom
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Hi rthom
Unfortunately I'm about 10 years behind but I'm very interested in these conversations.
I am researching the Ensolls, in particular Frederick Ensoll (born 1842), and wonder if you have established which Frederick Ensoll was Priscilla's father?
Frederick (born 1842) seems to have been 'a bit of a rogue' !
Also searched BDM/Census but couldn't find any further info on Priscilla Steventon/Ensoll.
Regards
Stu