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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: stoop on Monday 11 February 08 15:06 GMT (UK)
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Has anyone out there have any knowledge regarding the hamlet of Cleughbrae near Mouswald , regards stoop.
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Hi stoop,
Geographically this site tells you where it is:
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/towns/townfirst5269.html
Pam
:)
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Hi , Pam thanks for you response. I should have been more specific in my e-mail , on my way into Dumfries I have driven past Cleughbrae and have been curious as to where in the hamlet particular Kerrs lived in the 1841 census it does not pinpoint the address other than Cleughbrae , ,thanks again Pam , regards stoop .
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just looking at old posts cleuchbrae had at least 12 cottages and continued down the hill towards mouswal church a lot of the kerrs there were related particularly to mouwald banks kerrs where there were several families all related also to the kerrs birset dalton csc
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Hi csc, thank you for your reply. Your information adds to my knowledge regarding the the extent of Cleughbrae. Can you possibly tell me how many farms there are in Cleughbrae, the only one Ihave spotted is the one just off the main road above Mouswald. Regards stoop.
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i think there may have been more than one i think if a person even only had 1 field he was called a farmer i know that my ancestor george kerr was sometimes described as a farmer and sometimes as an agricultural labourer on his childrens certificates cleuchbrae was quite an assortment of industry and people helped each other out they did whatever came along and quite a few children died they moved from farm to farm sometimes twice in a year i dont have 2 of georges children born at the same place in my own family i am the eldest of 8 and none of us born the same place thanks csc
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Thanks for your rapid reply, my particular interest is relating to one James Kerr married to a Martha Moffat tenant in Cleughbrae he was born around 1718 and died in 1789, it looks as if he lived in Collin for a while as a couple of his children were born there . Jumping forward in time one of his daughters , Rachel remained in Cleughbrae ,unmarried she was joned by her sister in law Mary Kerr widow of Thomas Kerr a son of James. In the census of 1841 they were described as living in the farmhouse at Cleughbrae. Who was your George related to?, I suppose possibly my line. Regards stoop.
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my george and mary dickson were the parents of my francis buried mouswald my great gran mary agnes is in the same grave she was alive when i was small we have been trying to find out who georges father is i have got several possibilities i have lots of papers for mouswald and dalton births and some torthorwald i am working with my sister akc on this thanks csc
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I suppose Francis Kerr of Dumfries is alikely candidate for the parent of George Kerr who was born in 1784, trying to seperate the Kerr families is a real battle, particularly when they were living so close to each other and inter marrying. During our searches the same names keep appearing so we start thinking they must belong to us . Regards stoop.
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we were looking at the possibility of george kerr and margaret harkness son george born 1778 or george kerr and ann davidson but we cant find a george for them george and marys first child that we can find is robert hendeson kerr 1801 whitecroft george may not have been registered but we do know there is a connection with mouswald banks and our gran agnes kerr was born elizafield which also has big connections the last time i was at mouswald cemetery it was pouring down and i did not get a good look but i am going back shortly and i will take my notebook i was trying to put the kerrs in their families the ones i know of were extremely hard working people the women were all kindly including granny who looked after everybody i had ruled out the francis kerr ones from dumfries as i thought they went over near lockerbie thanks csc
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My lot lived and died around Mouswald Banks ,Elizafield , Birset, Racks, Mouswald, Topmuir, Whitecroft, Beyond The Burn, many are buried in Mouswald Kirkyard. I would not be surprised if we did share a common ancestry. regards stoop.
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yes i think we do if i get any more info i will let you know i saw you were looking for a robert on the cumberland side we also share something similar if you look at rootschat for cumberland you will see i am looking for margaret sparks my granny agnes kerr was married at brydekirk to joseph sparks charlton from near cockermouth he must have been here working he was at limekilns granny was at edge thanks csc
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Hi, I too will let you know when I find out more during my researching, totally absorbing isnt it?. regards stoop.
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yes once you get started you cant put it down i did not realise there were so many kerrs in one small area and they are only 1 part of the family another item i did not realise until i got into it kirkcudbrightshire started on this side of the nith lots of kerrs in troqueer one of them alexander kerr at moat cottage with his sister jane mcgowan probably your lot he must have had a shop some on the new abbey road as well probablyall cousins i do think kerrs bells and hetheringtons knew each other well csc
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It was a Bell who first started me off with my research, he I think was a 4th cousin. In Mouswald one of my Kerrs married into another Kerr line. This autimatically multiplied the number of people to research. Regards stoop. Yes I have family in Troqueer.
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the last one i looked at the other day was death 11th nov 1881 jane mcgowan widow of william mcgowan foreman on farm age 75 old age and debility whitecroft father james kerr weaver dec and janet neilson dec thomas tweedie son in law witness whitecroft big area for kerrs another thing when you mentioned topmuir there was an alexander kerr there this jane also had a brother alexander shop keeper also at topmuir born jean tweedie mother of janet davidson 1802 ruthwll who was benjamin bells wife who was bro of our mary francis wife he took her with him down to liverpool where she died another davidson relative was father of our marys first son edward davidson before she was with francis ann davidson wife of old george kerr is also connected to same family no wonder we are having trouble finding out who is who csc
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Hi crc I bet you could not repeat that without taking a breath, Iwill have to study your latest, it was packed full of information. Regards stoop.
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my sister says i have to give you time to catch your breath. do you know very much about george kerr 1720-1801 and tabitha moffat 1731-1805 i have david 1759-1788 jannet died in infancy john 1764-1805 mary1760-1840 died piehills robert1771-1847 died piehills i think there should be more children i am pretty sure they would have a george they lived at howthat and piehills just along the road our francis was born at piehills i think robert was a tailor they are buried at dalton just a fewyards from thomasdickson and margaret swan who we thought might be mary dicksons parents thanks csc
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Good morning csc, it is going to take me some time to digest and interpret all the information you have given me to date. In the meantime would you like to have a look at the following data relating to my line. The earliest individuals i have dates for are James Kerr born about 1718 he died in 1789 and is buried in Mouswald Kirkyard. He married Martha Moffat born 1728 died 1803 they lived at Cleughbrae but I think for some time lived in Collin where they had a couple of children, Thomas Kerr born 1773 and James born 1771. Their first child was Robert who was born in 1754 at Mouswald, it is him that I have been searching for. John Kerr was born in 1756 at Mouswald Banks he married Jean Tweedie and was a blacksmith. Joseph Kerr died in infancy. Rachel was born in 1762 and died in 1832 at Cleughbrae, she was sigle. I have gleaned a lot of information from her will such as relating to her brother John he lived at Under Butterwhat in the parish of Dalton and had a son James. Her brother James lived at Elizafield in the parish of Torthorwald. Next is her brother George born 1761 farmed at Mouswald Banks died in 1826 at Racks married to Mary Tweedie she died in 1850 at Elizafield. They had several children mentioned in the will including William born in 1787 at Mouswald died at Birset in 1854 . Agnes I think was born in 1785 as Aggy She died at Elizafield in 1858. She mentions a Mary Kerr, widow of John Foster of Annan, Ithink she was another daughter of George if so she was born in 1795 at Mouswald. She makes mention of a brother William who had a son George a tailor in Dumfries. I have not been able to trace the tailor to date or indeed establish a birth date for William. There is a lot more to follow should any of this be relevant to you. regards stoop.
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i am going to have a look at all this info i think my george is on the outskirts of t his family as they went back and forth between elizafield mouswald banks and wath the kerr names in my family are lots of johns georges francis robert archibald edward william the birth records are very sketchy and census records are a few years out according to the birth certificates young george who was described as an idiot in the census was probably a boy with learning difficulties and his mother would go back near the family so that they could help just as we would now a lot of my kerrs are now in gretna have got lots more to ask you about thanks csc
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Hi csc ask as many questions as you have to, regards stoop. Question, do you live in the Mouswald area?, how far back have you been able to go with your research?.
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i live near park farm on the new abbey road dumfries and george is as far back on kerr side and benjamin bell in ruthwell churchyard marys grandfateher on bell side margaret sparks as far back on my grandfathers side and on my mothers side drevers and cursiters about the same length dad was a prisoner of war and he was stationed in orkney when he came back only started this a few years back i have a sister who is as keen as i am akc thanks csc
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Hi Stoop and csc,
A little of topic and I apologise, but I refer to your post, csc, in respect to your George Kerr and Mary Dickson. Do you know who Mary's parents were? and the timeframe we are talking about as I have been for awhile been trying to piece together the various Dickson families in the Mouswald area just as you are with the Kerr's. My Dicksons were from the village and also occupied the smithy at Woodside for at least the 19th & early 20th Centuries, possibly earlier.
I also have another Kerr question, I have in my tree Thomas Kerr, Mary Hutchison and their daughter Margaret was born c1830 and died 1849, 6 months after being married to Charles Jardine, who in turn remarried to Jane Dickson in 1851, sister of my 2G Grandfather Jacob Dickson. Do you, in your research of the Kerr's, have any info on this Kerr family. I believe Margaret died at Elizafield. Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers
Mick Dickson
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hi mick i have been in touch with you before on a different e mail my grannys sister was jeannie hutchison kerr born at elizafield my great gran mary agnes had 4 children not a man in sight he must have fled but it doesnt matter now mr stoop appears to share the kerrs with me my 4xgrandad francis is right next to george kerr mouswald banks in the cemetery his father was george i am trying to find out his parents his mother mary dickson we thought she might be the daughter of thomasdickson and margaret swan as the name swan is in the family if she is that mary she had a twin brother and her parents are buried dalton not far from george kerr and tabitha moffat i intend visiting little dalton churchyard soon but will wait until some of my family can go in case it is creepy your name is associated with some of the little books in fhs thanks csc
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hi mick just an addition after i sent your reply margaret was the daughter of the joiner at elizafield her parents are buried in the family grave at mouswald this family are related to the kerrs mouswald banks and cleuchbrae and birset i thought the hutchison connection came from the swan family but on hindsight it has likely come from here i have always thought granny is connected to this family of kerrs other people are providing me with info i was looking for csc
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Good morning csc, I lived in Greenbrae Loaning until I was 14 and that has helped enormously regarding my knowledge of the surrounding area I try to visit Dumfries at least four times a year and usually stay near Dalton village. Iam hoping to come north from Liverpool to see the events in Dumfries on the 25th. of January. Regards stoop.
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Hi Mick, In response to your post I cannot as yet establish a link with George Kerr and Mary Dickson nor indeed do I recognise this particular Thomas Kerr but I can inform you of the following link . Martha Kerr was born at the stoop in 1820 to one Thomas Kerr she married a James Dickson born in Mouswald about 1799 she died in 1851 he died in 1854 in New york they had the following children, James who born at Mouswald in 1845, Mary born in 1849 likewise in Mouswald and Robert born in 1847 also in Mouswald . Ihope this is of use to you. Regards stoop.
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Hello again Mick I have just had a look at the census of 1851 relating to James Dickson. He was actually born in about 1813 Mouswald. In the same year of the census Martha died, there is a mention of a son Thomas who was 7 and no mention of James who it appears had died young. Iwonder therefore when did James senior go to America and did he take the children with him. Incidentally he was a mason. Regards stoop.
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Here I am again Mick this time I am referring to another Dickson Kerr link. William Kerr born ? died 1808 first married an Agnes Irving born in 1729 died 1769 his second wife was a Mary Dickson born in 1745 and died in 1825. I think William was born in Cleughbrae. William had a brother James born 1718 he was my 5th grandfather. regards stoop.
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Kerr folk - buried Lochmaben old cemetery. My George was a joiner.
"To the memory of Thomas Kerr in Esbie who died January 26th, 1764 aged 75
years. Also Jannet Sandert his spouse who died May 4th 1767 aged 75 years.
Also Thomas, Robert and Elizabeth, Thomas and James all children to George
Kerr joiner in Rosebank. Also George son of the above who died 20th
December, 1808 aged 72 years. Also Christina Burgess his spouse who died at
Lochmaben 19th December, 1819 aged 77 years. Also William Kerr son of John
Kerr who died --- 1817 aged 12 years, and Jean Kerr his daughter who died
10th March 1833 aged 16 years. Also Helen Bell spouse to the said John Kerr
who died 13 January, 1833 aged 50 or 56 years. Also Jean and Christina their
daughters - Jean died at Lockerby March 1837 aged 14 years and Christina
died at Ohio, America August 1835 aged 21 years. George Bell their son also
died in America aged 31 years."
Janice
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A useful resource for Kerr and others.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~leighann/index.html
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Hi Stoop and csc,
As to James D and Martha K, I have James b 3 Nov 1809, marrying in Jun 1842. Martha born c 1820 d 30 May 1851. I believe James died 21 Sep 1854 in New York. Their son James b. 27 May 1845, d. 4 Jan 1846. They also had as you've noted Thomas, Robert and Mary b 1849. James Sr was born to James Dickson (1769 or 1771 - 1843) and Mary Gracie (1772-1829), she was born in New Abbey and this where they married. They had 12 children, I have wondered about this family as the childrens names are so close to my own Dickson line. It is possible that James (1769 or 1771) was the first son of my 4G Grandfather Richard as I have a five year gap bet. his marriage to Elspet Dickson in 1768 and the birth of the first recorded child in 1773, its possible James (1769) was born elsewhere other than Mouswald as his poss. parents married in Caerlaverock.
As to William Kerr and Mary Dickson, I don't have anything on them at all sorry. May have to dig deeper.
Sorry csc, was not aware that we had corresponded before, my bad. Yes I am the culprit re the MI booklets. I haven't seen them so didn't know my name was emblazoned in them. Having now checked the soft copy I have of them MIs, I found the two were refer. I think as you said with hindsight that the Hutchison name is not connected to the Swan family but to Thomas Kerr and Mary Hutchison which keeps it all in the parish.
I have another Dickson/Kerr family...James D and Mary Kerr or Margaret Ker. Nine children between 1800-1821, all born in Mouswald:
Thomas 1800, Robert Grierson (1802), James (1805), Janet (1808), William (1810), John (1813), Jean (1816-1888, married John Boyes), Elizabeth (1816), Charles (1821).
I'll turn this into a Dickson discussion yet...lol
Mick
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Wrt James D the Builder who died in NY 1854, its possible he took the kids with him as he may have had family there. Working on the premise he is related to my line of Dicksons, his poss. cousin also James (b1812, Blacksmith) went to NY about 1851 or earlier, lost his wife Elizabeth Edgar there in 1852, also another poss. cousin Jane Dickson (1832 - 1899) who married Charles Jardine (1825-1874 Mason) whose first wife was Margaret Kerr (1830-1849) as previously mentioned went to NY in about 1851 as well. I can't find James kids in the 1861 census although by then they would have been spread to the winds possibly if they stayed.
More intriguing thoughts...
Mick
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Good evening Mick , its all fascinating stuff, prompting so many questions. Relating to William Kerr and Mary Dickson perhaps finding their resting place will provide some answers. I do not know how James Dikson and Mary Kerr sneaked under the radar, I simply have not spotted them before. It would appear that Mary or Margaret was born around the middle 1770s, and more than likely in Mouswald. In one way as we go further back there are fewer people to study and given that there are tangible documents around we might be able to further identify their roots. Thanks for the likely scenario that James had relations in America. Whatever became of the poor children losing both their parents over four years . Regards stoop.
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hi mick and stoop you have both prompted me to fish out my old paper work that i had when i was tring to find my george and mary 1 have as follows joseph son to james kerr and martha moffat in cleuchbrae born 7th may baptized 8th jannet richardson to adam richardso n and mary dickson in bottom 20th not sure which month 1771 janet daughter to john richardson and janet dicksonat looks like houthwaite oct 17th 1772 joseph son to robert dickson and elizabeth maxwell in dodbeck 28th jan 1772 john son to john richardson and janet dickson in robiewhat born sat the 7th march 1770 jacob to john dickson and jean johnstone in ironhirst looks like jan 6th baptized 10th 1773 elizabeth daughter to adam richardson and mary dickson in bottom jan 20th 1773 baptized 30th janet daughter to benjamin kerr and mary irving in banks 14th march 1773 baptized same day elizabeth daughter to revd jacob dickson and janet richardson born friday march 19th 1773 baptized 21st same month
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continued janet daughterto william dickson and mary dickson in rockhallborn june 17th baptized 18th margaret daughter to richard dickson and elizabeth dickson in mouswald town looks like dec 21st baptized 26th 1773 joseph son to william kerr and mary dickson in cleuchbrae born dec 26th 1773 baptized 27th james son to john dickson and janet edgar born feb 4th 1774 baptized 5th james son to joseph kerr and jean latimer in mouswald banks born looks like feb 16th 1774 baptized 17th mary daughter to benjamin kerr and mary irving in banks of mouswald born april 27th 1774 baptized may james son to robert dickson and jean irving in dodbeck june 13th 1774 baptized 19th mary daughter to david dickson and susannah johnstone in kirkfield born aug 29th baptized 30th 1774 william son to john dickson and jean johnstone in ironhirst born oct 16th 1774 baptized 23rd
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con tinued gilbert son to rev jacob dickson and janet richardson born dec 28th 1774 baptized 1st jan 1775 mary daughter to adam richardson and mary dickson in boddom born may12th1775 baptized 14th janet daughter to robert dickson and elizabeth maxwell in dodbeck born dec 30th 1775 baptized 31st john son to richard dickson and elspeth dickso in mouswald town born july31st baptized aug4th 1776 janet daughter to rev mr jacob dickson and janet richardson born oct 26th 1776baptized 27th william son to gavin dickson and isobel kent in boddom born jan 12th 1777 baptized the 14th at a dont know what this is at ironhirst william son to benjamin kerr and mary irving in banks of mouswald born feb 4th baptized 5th1777 ann daughter to adam richardson and mary dickson in boddom born april 28th 1777baptized may 11th robert and william twin sons to robert dickson and jean irving in dodbeck born 4th sep baptized the same day childen being thought weakly robert died1790 of a fever more to come csc
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continued susannah daughter to david dickson and susannah johnstone in kirkfield born sep18th baptized 21st agnes daughter of john dickson and janet edgar in mouswald mains born oct 30th 1777 baptized 1st nov samuel son to john carruthers and isobel kerr in brocklehurst borh july12th baptized 13th 1778 abraham son to adam richardson and mary dickson in boddom born march 16th 1779 baptized the 21st in small writing underneath it says he died 10th marchcant make out which year charlote daughter to richard dickson and elspeth dickson in mouswald town born apr 15th 1779 baptized 16thjanet daughter to gavin dickson and isobel kent in boddom born june 13th baptized 15th william son to william kerr and mary dickson in cleuchbrae born july 22 baptized 23rd william son to oswald kerr and mary young born aug 19th baptized 22nd 1779 james and looks like bryce twin sons to rev jacob dickson and janet richardson born june 29th 1780 baptized same day by looks like mr macmillan minister of torthorwald jean daughter to richard dickson and elspeth dickson in cant read it born dec19th 1781 baptized 23rd more to follow csc
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csc,
From your last posts, the following are in my Dickson lines, Richard and Elspet Dickson being my 4G Grandparents:
"margaret daughter to richard dickson and elizabeth dickson in mouswald town looks like dec 21st baptized 26th 1773"
"john son to richard dickson and elspeth dickso in mouswald town born july31st baptized aug4th 1776."
No more info has been found on Margaret, she is the first recorded child and John was a Blacksmith in the Mouswald village and died in 1856. He married Isabella Gibson and they had one son, Robert born in 1800 who married Janet Irving about 1823 (no record found). Janet was the dau. of Thomas Irving and Janet Rogerson.
I have not been able to go beyond Richard and Elspeth as we have not found descendants in Scotland or any that have done any research on them. There is no record of Richard & Elspeths burial anywhere. Our link with Mouswald died with my grandfather in 1935. So I've been pushing the proverbial up hill since I started 4 years ago from scratch.
I have most if not all the Dicksons you mention in research spreadsheet as I try to piece them together.
Mick
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Charlote and Jean are mine as well. Richard and Elspeth had at least 7 recorded kids plus possibly the James we have mentioned before. Thomas Dickson b 1790 was my 3G Grandfather, the last child I have recorded.
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i know there are 2 richard dicksons with children in mouswald richard dickson and jean latimer betty born 07 07 1806 and jacob 23 10 1808 which tells me they are probably related to the rev i will look at what i have on marriages csc
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Hi Stoop,
No I don't think that Richard is not the son of Rev. Jacob. His Richard went to the US and died in Indiana in 1835, He was Richard Lothian Dickson born 14 May 1767 in Mouswald.
However I haven't parents for the Richard you mentioned yet though so it may come to pass that it is the same one.
Mick
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oops I meant 'Hi csc'
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thats ok all 3 of us probably have connection i am taking some of my papers to work with me if we are not busy i will go over them again i have found some of mine when i have been looking for other peoples my family just tell me i am plain nosy my grand daughter and i play detectives i am miss marple she is going to be nosy as well she is only 4 and knows everything i have written a lot of my ancestors out for her if she wants them when she is a big girl csc
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Csc,
I have found on the RootsWeb World Connect Project that Richard L. Dickson married a Rachel Lowry in 1825 in the US, he would have been 57 or so, therefore he could bethe same one that was married to Jean Latimer, and moved the family to the US where Jean dies or even after she died in Scotland :-\ and he remarries and has another family. All supposition of course.
Mike
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:)hi mick in the ruthwell mis there are lots of dicksons no 346 in memory of david dickson esq late of nether locharwoods who died upon the ninth day of december 1806 aged 79 years alsohis son major richard lowthian dickson who died on the 20th march 1841 at bordeaux in france 347 isabella dicksondaughter of david dickson esq late of nether locharwoods died at clarencefield 15th may 1855 348 mary richardson spouseto david dickson esq who died august the 7th 1808 aged 74 years she was the eldest daughter of gilbert richardson and ann alison late in brow she was a most affectionate wife and loving mother and a sincere friend her death was much lamented by her friends and acquaintances 349 george dickson son to david dickson esq who died 7th january 1803 much regretted by his friends and acquaintances age 25 also george ross grandson of david dickson esq monument erected by isabella dickson csc
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Evening all, can I relate the following details to you in particular csc and to you Mick if it is useful. Starting with
James Kerr b.circa 1718 described as tenant of Cleughbrae d. 3/12/1789 m. Martha Moffat b. 10/6/1788 d. 11/1/1803 had at least the following children, Robert b.15/9/1754 he had a daughter named Rachel, but I do not know who his wife was or when Rachel was born he apparently lived in England. John b.1756 d.? m. Jean Tweedie in 1781 she was b. in 1760 and died in 1841 , he was a blacksmith in Mouswald Banks. Their children were , John 2/1/1786 in Mouswald Banks d. 28/7/1843. Martha b.29/4/1788 d. young, David b.22/7/1801 d. 4/3/1821, Martha b. 23/10/1791 Mouswald Banks d.?, James b. 27/6/1794 Mouswald Banks, he married Jannet Johnstone, Joseph b. 25/6/1799 at Shawhead, Mouswald d. 16/11/1874 he married Isabella Johnstone b. 10/11/1805 d. 5/3/1886 she was from Lochmaben. Jannet b. 8/9/1782 d. 1821 The next child of James and Martha was Joseph b. 17/5/1768 d. in infancy, Rachel b. 16/6/1762 d. 1832 Cleughbrae, George b. 1761 farmer, Racks, Mouswald d. 20/2/1826 at Racks he married Mary Tweedie b. 1755 d. 18/5/1856 at Elizafield. Their children were Aggy b. 8/12/1785 d. 28/4/1858 at Elizafield, Janet b. 12/3/1790 Mouswald d. ?, Jean b. 19/11/1798 Mouswald, Margaret b. 26/6/1792 Mouswald, Martha b. 14/2/1785 Mouswald, Mary b. 4/10/1795 Mouswald, William b. 20/7/1787 d. 26/12/1834 at Birsett was married to Agnes Henry b. 1786 d. 14/8/1853 at Birsett, The next child of J and M was Jannet born 1753 d. March 1811, James b. 1771 d. 24/11/1850 at Elizafield, he I think was married to Janet Tweedie, their children were Thomas b. ?, Mary b.?, John b. ?, Martha b.?, Joseph b.?, Janet b.?, Finally there was Thomas b. 19/12/1773 Collin, d. 25/3/1829 at the stoop he married Mary Slater b. 13/1/1783 d. 1874 or 78 at Troqueer. Their children were Mary b. 18/11/1806 d. 11/8/1892 at Gateside Holywood her husband was David Kerr b. 1810 in Holywood d. 16/9/1898 at Holywood. , Jean Millar b. 27/7/1807 at Milnfield Annan d. single 1826, James B. 6/7/1811 At Annan d. 8/11/1874 Newbridge Terregles, his wife was Sarah Phillips Pattie b. 6/5/1812 at Mouswald d . 29/4/1877 at Newbridge., George b. 14/9/1817 at Annan d. 11/9/1866 at Doweel farm Troqeer., Martha b. 26/8/1820 at Stoop d . 30/5/1851 she was married to James Dickson b. 1813 d .21/9/1854 in New York. They had children, likewise George and James lots of them , these can follow with another e mail. regards stoop.
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Thanks csc re the Nether Locharwood Dicksons, I have been in contact with the descendants of the Clark-Dicksons of this area and we have theorised the connection between the dicksons of mouswald and these due to the proximity of the two locations. I don't have the Ruthwell MIs so thanks for that. I really should get the Mouswald, Ruthwell, Torthorwald and Dalton ones as they and the Caerlaverock one are where my families are buried. I have most of the Mouswald ones plus even some the DGFHS didn't...ie. most of my family but it would be nice to have the publications.
Stoop, thanks I'll pull that apart and take what I need, my thoughts are to put James D and Martha into the tree and hopefully one day connect them to my Dicksons. Where are the 'Banks' in relation to the village and Woodside, anyone?
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hi mick in one of my replies last week i was asked how certain i was that mary dickson holemains was my ancestor we have never been certain but looking at last weeks replies we are now looking at mary dickson daughter of david dickson and susan johnstone she is also the right age do you know much about them i see a lot of their children have biblical names so might be related to the reverand george and mary had a daughter susan have not found her birth cert but have got her death cert also been trying to find this david kerr with only a george kerr listed as father the girls names of david and susan nearly match george andmarys csc
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Hi csc,
I haven't got the connection between David D and Rev. Jacob as yet . However looking at my spreadsheet, I believe David's middle name was Jacob and he was born about 1732 dying at Glebe Park, Mouswald in 14 Nov 1815 and Rev. Jacob was born about 1736 and dying in 1824. Susannah/Susan born about 1733 died 9 Jul 1809. Jacob's father was Abraham and both David and Jacob have sons 5th & 4th respectively named Abraham. Both also have a Janet and a James. Rev. Jacob's mother was Janet Smith and she married Abraham in Torthorwald in Oct 1733.
I don't have any other info on David's Mary b 29 Aug 1774, sorry. I do have some ideas on some of her brother's marriages though. Jacob married a Jean Bell, Abraham to Sarah Boys (Boyes or Boyce), Oswald possibly married Jean Grahame and also Mary Dinwoodie. Her sister Janet possibly to James Richardson but again not confirmed, its possible that Jacob's Janet married him instead.
Mick
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thanks mick i dont know why we did not think of her before we have skirted around this family a few times one of george and marys children was born at glebe park i thought it might have been marys aunts house susan died 1856 at moffat i havent got her birth but it says she was 51 on her death i wonder if she was the one reg as anna i think my day off tomorrow will be spent looking at this lot csc
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Hi everyone,
I don't know how I have managed to miss this thread so I apologise for coming in late. I don't want to complicate things but I also have a connection with Cleughbrae and surrounding areas, although I haven't seen my principal family's name mentioned in your posts.
I have John Nicholson married to Mary Ann Smith and all their children were born at Cleughbrae. Benjamin b. 1777, Edward b. 1779, Christopher b. 1781, Agnes b. 1785, Janet b. 1787, Mary Ann b. 1791 and Jonah b. 1795. I think the parents of John Nicholson were Benjamin Nicholson b. abt. 1722 and Janet Irving - they had 4 sons who married and settled in the Mouswald area. Two of the brothers married into the Carruthers family.
I am descended from Christopher Nicholson b. 1781 at Cleughbrae (mentioned above). He married Helen Jardine and he eventually became tennant farmer and miller of Tinwald Mill, Tinwald.
Please forgive me for barging in, but I wonder if perhaps a Nicholson has appeared at all in your searchings.
Maggie
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hi maggie yes i have seen lots of stuff about this family but it will take me a little time to get it together will get back to you csc
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That's great csc. There is no rush at all - I know I am interrupting.
We had a quick visit to the area at the end of October last and I have pictures of Cleughbrae, Mouswald church, where I know a lot of my Nicholsons are buried and Tinwald churchyard where we found the headstone of Christopher Nicholson and Helen Jardine.
I have quite a bit of information on the family but the use of the same Christian name is confusing the picture a bit to say the least, for example I know there were 2 Jonah Nicholsons born around the same time, one married to Ann Carruthers and the other married to Janet Dickson.
Many thanks,
Maggie
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hi mick do you know anything about jacob dickson and janet blackstock they also had son named francis henderson blackstock nearly the same age as my francis henderson kerr have you seen the name henderson on any other dicksons i cant find it on the kerrs thanks csc
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hi mick i see jacob dickson had 2 wifes both with the surname blackstock might be cousins also his francis died as a baby what do you think of the possibility of a sister calling her baby the same name also there is a jean kerr with a husband patrick blackstock who lived at woodside patrick was a tailor in dumfries she was the daughter of john kerr in dalton on her marriage certificate mary and georges other son robert also had middle name henderson csc
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Hi csc,
Just a note about Henderson/Kerr. my tree has Catherine Henderson of Torthorwald marrying John Kerr(c1815-1879) in Mouswald with children Joseph 1850, Thomas 1853, Elizabeth 1854, Mary 1855, Janet 1857, Isabella 1864 & Joseph 1867. They lived in Mouswald and family headstone is in the churchyard there. Just wondered if this was the connection you were looking for!
John was farmer at Brocklehurst & Grennan.
Kama
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thats odd i looked at that grave when i was at mouswald it is approx 3 yards from my francis it says john kerr farmer in grennan dalry formerly of brocklehurst 1879 i think a lot of these kerrs who are lying together are related thanks csc
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Hi csc,
As to Jacob D and the Blackstocks, maybe sisters? I only have their marriage dates and a son Joseph for Jacob and Janet. Haven't gone into them yet as I haven't a father for Jacob. Was the sons name Francis Henderson Blackstock Dickson? I haven't seen many with two middle names in here or was it not a Dickson.
The only Dickson Henderson marriage I've seen was a William D and Agnes H in 1855, Torthorwald, they had a Jane, William and a Robert as far as I know all born in Torthorwald. Agnes was, I believe, the dau. of Robert Henderson farm servant of Torthorwald Village. Willam D may be a Land Measurer from Mouswald Village as there is only one William D in both parishes in 1851, however he was 38 in 1851 while Agnes was 15 in 1851. So I may have the wrong William altogether.
Mick
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Hi Maggie,
As to your Jonah confusion, I have Jonah b 1787 marrying Janet Dickson, son of Jonah N and Ann Carruthers. Jonah born 1795 married Margaret Dickson. Jonah 1795 was son of John N and Mary Ann Smith. Both Jonah (1787 & 1795) were grandsons pf Benjamin N and Janet Friend. I have these Nicholsons in my tree due to some distant connection and as I tend to add whole families in of spousal lines I went over board plus the two Dicksons sparked my interest. One connection is Ann N dau of Jonah & Janet married James Grierson son of William G and Jean Charteris whose other son Richard married Janet Dickson elder sister of my 2G Grandfather Jacob Dickson. See how far I go.
I hadn't a spouse for Christopher 1781, so now I have, thanks, any other info on that line would be good as I have connections to the Jardines as well, pm me if you like
Cheers
Mick
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Hi All,
csc - I see you made mention to a property called Holmains (your spelling Holemains). Is it in Dalton Parish per chance?
If it is, I know where it stands and I have lots of photos. My finacee and I visited south west scotland last year and as it was my old stomping ground, we walked over the hills and Holmains was one of a few ruinous/abandoned properties found in the dumfriesshire countryside.
If it is the same Holmains, which isnt far from the birset incidentally, I can provide you with some pictures if you would like.
Kojak
;)
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Hi Maggie,
As to your Jonah confusion, I have Jonah b 1787 marrying Janet Dickson, son of Jonah N and Ann Carruthers. Jonah born 1795 married Margaret Dickson. Jonah 1795 was son of John N and Mary Ann Smith. Both Jonah (1787 & 1795) were grandsons pf Benjamin N and Janet Friend. I have these Nicholsons in my tree due to some distant connection and as I tend to add whole families in of spousal lines I went over board plus the two Dicksons sparked my interest. One connection is Ann N dau of Jonah & Janet married James Grierson son of William G and Jean Charteris whose other son Richard married Janet Dickson elder sister of my 2G Grandfather Jacob Dickson. See how far I go.
I hadn't a spouse for Christopher 1781, so now I have, thanks, any other info on that line would be good as I have connections to the Jardines as well, pm me if you like
Cheers
Mick
Hi Mike,
Thank you for getting back to me on this. The details I have correspond with yours in every respect except that I have Benjamin N. married to Janet Irving (not Friend) but to be honest I don't know where I have got that information from as it is research done many years ago. I also have the will of Jonah N., wife of Janet in which mention is made of James Grierson and Ann Nicholson.
I will PM you then it doesn't get confusing on here.
Maggie
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hi stoop and mick doyou have any idea if the mary dickson married to william kerr could be the sister of david dickson married to sussanah johnstone we have been looking at david and sussanahs daughter mary and i think we have been looking at the wrong mary this pairs daughter fits the bill mary had her daughter janet at glebe park where janet dickson lived we thought that might be her aunt but it is likely her older sister our mary also had a daughter susan not found her birth but have her death our lot also had children at pyehills where george kerr and tabithas family were we might be nearer to solving the puzzle i see o lot of dicksons related in ruthwell cemetery csc
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Good evening csc, I wish I could be of more use, I feel I am on a seperate loop at the moment. My William was brother to James and his wife Martha Moffat. I have William dying on 26/7/1800, his first wife was Agnes Irving b. 1729 d. 28/3/1769, his second wife was Mary Dickson b. 8/8/1825. They had at least two children William b. 1784 d. 30/4/1824, then there was Joseph b. 1774 d.16/7/1847 he was married to a Janet Kerr b.1772 d.11/5/1842. There is another William Kerr described as miller at Cleughbrae Mill he was born in 1789 and d. Dec. 1845, I do not know who he was related to . U nfortunately I cannot shed any light on the Dickson questions. There was a George born in Mouswald around the time of James and William looks as if he could be another brother, Ihave details about him somewhere that I will dig out and e mail , hopefully the pieces might begin to fit. Regards stoop.
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that might be my george a lot of this family both kerrs and dicksons are related i thought the 2 marys might be related aunt and neice if the daughter of david and susan is my relative it means francis is lying not far away from his granny another thing i noticed the relatives of janet kerr laneside were called blackstock jacob dicksons 2 wifes were both blacksocks and ihave a paper among my pile relating to a marriage mary kerr banks and a blackstock also jean kerr daughter of john deceased dalton was married to patrick blackstock we will be like the royal family all married to each others relations another thing i see you are in liverpool that is where benjamin bell brother of francis wife went with his mother in law jean tweedie born topmuir and his wife janet davidson you never know who is going to pop up next csc
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did you find robert kerr yet i see at one time you were looking at crosscanonby i have a post on the cumberland site looking for my cumberland grandfathers relations charlton and sparks family his relations were at crosscanonby my grandads brother jacob charlton worked there my grandad was working at limekilns near brydekirk when he married granny agnes kerr what is also strange is that they both had hetherington relations csc
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I selected Cumberland because it is just across the Solway and thought that it was possible that Robert and his daughter Rachel were still in touch with their family. Roberts sister Rachel unfortunately in her will does not name his wife, I find that curious as she does name other spouses. I am also thinking of Roberts choice of name for his daughter, perhaps there is a dark answer. To date I have not been able to trace his wife. Regards stoop.
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hi cleuchbrae people one of you asked me how sure i was about which mary dickson was my relative and i was not sure so i fished out all my piecec of paper and you look to be right i have been looking at the wrong one its a case of several heads better than one i have been looking at mary dickson daughter of david and sussana johnstone and have found a connection marys neice susan dickson daughter of her brother adam is working in the same house in moffat in 1861 as jessie harkness daughter of adam harkness and our susan kerr is that likely to be a coincidence and another jacob dickson cant be marys brother as he is too young with his wife janet blackstock have a son with thr name francis henderson same as my francis so this mary has a large family of siblings lots of boys with biblical names and lots of sussanas we wondered where susans name came fron as we have only known about her for a short time so now what does anybody know about david and sussana csc
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does anyone know where the mill was at mouswald i know about the one at mouswald grange but were there any others some of the kerrs occupations seem to be millers csc
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to all mouswald people i am now looking for the family of sussanah johnstone and david dickson john 1754 jacob 1756 james 1758 janet 1762 oswald 1765 abraham 1767 adam1772 who was married to janet maxwell and had children born at kirkbean mary 1774 born kirkfield ans sussanah 1777 i have found definite links to them and although i have been to my francis grave several timea i did not pay attention to the stone at his left side sussanah and david so he is nly a few inches from his grandmother have not found george kerr yet might have a look at torthorwald next csc
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Hi csc,
Glad you have been able to narrow things down to David and Susannah, sorry I haven't been answering your other questions as I have not had time really. Mmmm kirkbean? one of my Dickson lines lived there as well but in the late 19th C at Gillhead. Some of their names are on the Kirkbean War Memorials for dying and surviving WWI.
As to Mouswald Mill, no idea but have had Griersons living there in the 19th C... Richard Grierson and Janet Dickson and family.
I also have connections to Torthorwald as well, maybe one day we will discover that our Dicksons are connected as well.
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does anyone know if there is a connection between kerrs righead and kerrs cleuchbrae i had a look at the weekend and noticed righead is only a short distance from elizafield and not far from mouswald csc
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Hi csc, I too would like to make a connection. I was given a list of Kerrs who are buried at Torthorwald by Kama including James Kerr late of Rigghead d. 24/9/1813 aged 42 presumably born in 1771. Another James of Rigghead was the father of Mary Kerr d. 5/1/1825 aged 76 birth year 1749. It would seem probable that the two Jatedames are related, likely grandson and grandfather and that Mary was an aunt of James the younger. This does not answer your question, whether Rigghead and Cleughbrae Kerrs are related but it is important to establish how the Kerrs in Torthorwald graveyard relate to the rest. Ihave the names and details of about twenty people buried in Torthorwald should you want them. Regards stoop.
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yes thanks that might be helpful the reason i am wondering about righead is because of william kerr the miller who married martha mccall i could not find him on the mouswald census 1841 but he could not have been far away he got married 1842 there is a william at righead correct age describes as ag lab i was out there on sunday and you could walk it quite easy the graves in the churchyard are looking ok one of them is getting hidden by bushes i dont know how i did not notice francis granny sussanah beside him but i was only thinking kerrs and another thing while i have been searching for my charltons and sparks in the cumberland site what o lot of kerrs born scotland around longtown might be where your ancestor went
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Hi csc Iwill give them to you in no particular order.
Elsbeth Kerr spouse to William Houston d. 22/10/1837 aged 59
George Kerr d. 18/3/1808 aged 76,Mary Kerrd.March 1776 aged 6months ,Mary aged 5 d.March 1781, Joseph d .aged 4 and Mary Houston his grandchild.
Samuel Kerr of Carthwood d. 2/2/1766 aged 47 and son d . in infancy
Robert Kerr of Carthwood d. 20/3/1789 aged 74
Janet Kerr d. 19/4/1823 aged 78
William Kerr of Mid Dargavel d. 8/10/1841 aged 47, William Kerr his son d. 21/7/1845 aged 15, Thomas his son d. 25/2/1839 aged 5, Mary 23/7/1850 aged 30
Janet Kerr wife of Walter Hogg d. 28/5/1809 aged 30, George Kerr d. 29/12/1831 aged 43, Isabella Kerr his daughter d. 8/9/1832 aged 17 months
Mary Kerr relict of John Burnet farmer d. at Woodlands 4/2/1820
Jean Kerr daughter of John Kerr an Agnes Johnstone d. 25/5/1838 aged 1 year 3 months
Joanna Kerr daughter of George Kerr d. at Rockhall Lodge 17/2/1849 aged 7 and his daughter Jane d. 11/3/1851 aged 5 weeks above George d. 15/12/1855 aged 40
George Kerr son of James Kerr d. Lochmaben 27/7/1851 aged 17
Mary Kerr d. 27/11/1857
Ann Kerr d. 1/12/1848 aged69
Edward Kerr d. 8/7/1855 aged 5 Janet and Elizabeth died in infancy, children of Andrew Kerr joiner in Dumfries
James Kerr, feuer in Rosedale d. 20/9/1847 aged 73, James his son d. 26/12/1829 aged 27, Sarah his daughter d. 21/11/1840 aged 24, Andrew d. 20/5/1851 aged 40, Janet Kerr his wife d. 11/3/1854 aged 72
Gavin Kerr d. 21/12/1827 aged 28, Janet his daughter d. in 1832 aged 6
Margaret Kerr d. 14/2/1869 aged 70
Ann Kerr d. 27/9/1862 aged 80
Jessie Kerr d. 4/8/1845 daughter of William she was 19 William d. 12/6/1848 aged 51
Margaret Kerr d. 8/8/1843 aged 69
George Kerr farmer d. 8/5/1812 aged 64
Hope this helps regards stoop.
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i know that the rockhall lodge george is related to cleuchbrae i have loked at a lot of his paticulars i will fish them out when i come from work and george kerr farmer 1812 is one of the dalton ones i have his marriage 1797 somewhere csc
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george kerr death gamekeeper 40 years about 2 years in mouswald 20 years torthorwad father william kerr farmer dec. mother margaret kerr m/s armstrong dec wife jane fisher children catrine15 joanna died 1849 william 12 robert 10 margaret 8 jane 5weeks died 1850 joseph 4 james 2 time of death 1hr 45minsam at rockhall lodge parish of torthorwald dec.15th tuberculosis of the chest william kerr son witness thomas rome registrar mouswald csc
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kerr marriage annan 1805 thomas kerr in milnfield servant to william nelson esq of newbie and mary slater in the parish of urr were lawfully married csc
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Hi csc, regarding Kerr who was married at Milnfield Annan in 1805 he was my g.g.g. grandfather Thomas Ker( with one r). After the owner of the estate went bankrupt Thomas acquired a farm at the Stoop he died in 1829, curiously his will was dated 1838. His wife Mary Slater had the following children Mary born in Annan 1806, Jean Millar born in Annan1807, James born 1811 in Annan, George born 1817 and Martha born at the Stoop in 1820. I have accumulated lots of information about this family group. regards stoop.
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Hi csc ref. Rockhall Lodge George I am interested in the particulars of him in relationship to Cleughbrae thanks stoop.
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i have found 3 children for william and margaret in mouswald mary 1814 in saturnhirst william 1813 robert 1820 not foung george birth only 1 r in kerr in these also in dumfries same parent names catherine 1834 jean 1826 john lorimer 1825 margaret1822 thomas 1830 william again 1828 i think the robert might be mid dargavel 1851 he has a sister ann born mouswald in 1851 also margaret kerr servant 22 born torthorwald there seems to be 2 john lorimers the other ones parents thomas kerr and janet johnstone in kirkcudbrightshire thomas and william are probably brothers their mothers name could be lorimer do you know where saturnhirst was csc
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george kerr 1812 is butterthwaite i have a marriage for him 1797 torthorwald his wife was from kirkmichael he was quite old to be getting married i wonder if she was his second wife csc
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Hi csc , I know I am going off at a tangent but trying to establish links with your mentioned Kerrs. Incidentally I do not think it matters wh I ether Kerr is with one r or two as they frequently added the second r. Can I mention yet another George this on was born in 1761 to James Kerr and Martha Moffat he married Mary Tweedie who was born in 1755. George died in Feb. 1826 and Mary in 1838. He had farmed at Mouswald Banks and died at Racks, she died in Elizafield. One of their sons was William who was born about 1787 and died at Birset in December 1834 he was married to Agnes Henry whowas born around 1786 she died at Birset in August 1853 William and Agnes also had a daughter named Agnes.They also had a son George who was classified in the terms of the day as a pauper idiot, I looked for details of his death and initially could not trace his death in 1862 but found it recorded in 1864 he died at the age of 54 in a Dumfries asylum. George had been born in Irongray and Agnes in Johnston. Next to Agnes at Birset on the 1851 census is James Kerr and his wife Grace also addressed as Birset, Butterthwat is very near so everyone must have been related , nearly forgot James was married in 1849 to Grace but who was his first wife?. regards stoop.
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james at birsets first wife was janet in the 1841 census i have got their son josephs death cert agnes is mother of george and james so they are brothers i also have some stuff for agnes henry i will get it out tomorrow i dont know why all the kerrs named their children the same names when you find something different you get a surprise it must have been awful for georges mum the descriptions of ill children and illegitimate are awful we would not give it a second thought now csc
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my mary dickson is born 1774 kirkfield so george is slightly older or younger i think he died before her and i dont think he was too far away csc
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2more kerrs husband and wife parish of holywood 1898 david kerr labourer widower of mary kerr sept 16th age 88 years father james kerr farmer dec. mother margaret kerr m/s wallace old age and debility witness david kerr nephew newbridge farm terregles
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1892 parish of holywood mary kerr married to david kerr ploughman august 11th gateside fatherthomas kerr farmer dec. mother mary kerr m/s slater dec.cerebal------ 12 days david kerr husband present aug 13th wm wilson registrar
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parish of torthorwald1896 joseph kerr farmer married to mary anderson sept 22nd 1896 rosedale aged 73 years father james kerr farmer dec.janet kerr m/s johnstone gangrene of the foot i month witness david kerr son csc
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Hi csc Mary married David quite late in life and both worked on the farm of Mary Ker( frusSlater). They never had children. Doweel was a farm on the Goldilea estate near Cargenbridge, it is a lovely spot. I have as yet not been able to find any records for Davids father and mother, frustrating as it a Kerr marrying a Kerr. An interesting coincidence for me concerns the name Margaret Wallace first as the mother of David Kerr, she Ithink was born about 1790 and the second Margaret Wallace was my great grandmother, husband of John Kerr, she was born in 1856. regars stoop.
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Hi again csc, you probably know that James Kerr was a son of John Kerr and Jean Tweedie. regards stoop.
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yes i have seen that so is joseph the blacksmith and georges dad william 1873 james kerr former farmer grain roucan torthorwald married to grace graham 84 years john kerr farmer dec. jane kerr m/s tweedie dec.bronchitis witness jon bell son in law looks like birset june 10th joseph kerr blacksmith married to isabella johnstone 1874 dec.18th at mouswald village 75 years john kerr blacksmith dec. jane kerr m/s tweedie dec old age and debility john kerr son present jas stafford registrar in the mouswald mis 139 in memory of janet johnstone wife of james kerr farmer birset died 20th may 1845 aged 45 years also mathew kerr his son died at lochmaben 25th august 1850 aged 23 years also james kerr died at drummuire grain 11th may aged 84 years 141 on the back in memory of william kerr died at dumfries 26th march 1808 aged 46 years erected by james kerr his son so who is this william csc
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john kerr and jane or jean tweedie had a lot of children we have accounted for 3 of them another one martha in james kerr her uncles grave also jennet died 1821 aged 39 david 4th march 1821 aged 20 years also john died 28th july 1843 that is 7 so far do you know if there is any more csc
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hi csc ,the following names of John and Jean Kerrs children that I have are John b.2/1/1786 d. 28/7/1843, Martha b. 29/4/1789 d. young, Jannet b. 8/9/1782 d. 1/1/1821 then another Martha b. 23/10/1791 at Mouswald Banks d. ? James b. 27/6/1794 at Mouswald Banks d.? Joseph b. 25/6/1799 at Shawhead Mouswald d. 16/11/1874. regards stoop.
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Hello again csc, gripping but I have a couple of questions for you . Are you saying that there was a William, son to John and jean Kerr and that George was a son to William, have you details for these two people?. Can you clarify re James Kerr first wife was Jannet Johnston and second spouse was Grace Graham?. The references to James related to the same person in your posting. thanks stoop.
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yes i think you are right young george is old george grandson these 2 wives are correct for james i am trying to put everybody in their families have you any idea who the william is died dumfries 1808 aged 46 hadto be born around 1762 csc
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john and james are brothers what other brothers and sisters do they have who was their father csc
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Hi csc William Kerr who died in Dumfries on the 26/7/1808 was the brother of James Kerr who married Martha Moffat , he first married Agnes Irving who was born in 1729 she died 28/3/1769, his second wife was Mary Dickson born 1745 and died 8/8/1825, William and Mary had William born 1784 died 30/4/1824. regards stoop.
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have you any idea what relationship william kerr the mller was to them he is not far off the age of their own sons he has to be a close relative i know he had a son joseph i found his birth csc
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could he be william son to benjamin kerr and mary irving in banks of mouswald born 4th feby 1777 csc
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last nights william is too old i think i might have him this morning on the 1779 birtths 2 williams william son to william kerr and mary dickson in cleuchbrae born july 22nd baptized the 23rd the very next birth william son to oswald kerr and may young born august 19th baptized 22nd no address is oswald a brother of william have not seen much about him csc
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Evening csc just completed a bit of research centred around Cleughbrae census 1841. William Kerr son of William Kerr born 1789 d. 30/4/1824 not the miller. Now I turn to Joseph Kerr linen weaver aged 67 in 1841 married to Janet Kerr( her maiden name could be Kerr) she was 68 he d. 16/7/1847 and she d. 11/5/1842 William Kerr the miller was born in 1789 and died in Dec.1845 aged 56 he was married to Martha Mcall as you know they had Joseph who was born 1843 curious that he named his son Joseph maybe the birth year of Joseph senior is wrong. Incidentally Martha Mcall in the census of 1841 is living in the outhouse of Mary Kerrs (m.s. Slater) farm she is 15. After Mary Kerrs husband Thomas Ker died at the Stoop she moved to Cleughbrae. There is a Margaret Kerr of independent means living in Cleughbrae she is aged 68 born around 1773. I think it is entirely possible that we do not have all the names of children born to James Kerr and Martha Moffat, his brother William and his second wife Mary Dickson and that Joseph born around 1774 married to Janet Kerr could be a son to either or there could be a missing brother who fathered Benjamin and Joseph. regards stoop.
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ive got martha mccalls details there is another little georgina with a boyd mother living there named george kerr as being childs father probably the one at the farmhouse she moved to cummertrees with her mother next census matha mccall moved to langholm for a while with her next husband i have her death cert she had a few more children am trying to find jean born around 1846 i think i may have found young joseph in cockermouth with a wife jane 2 children john and sarah worked as a corn miller and provision merchant died aged 49 yes i think we do not have details of all the kerrs born cleuchbrae including my george there is a mary dickson in the oprs died there 1939 fits in with francis and ann being there ann also has a little boy with her cant find his birth but now that we are finding more i am wondering if that childs father could be robert wright who is working away in norfolk as a drover with her brother robert again found in the census these kerrs are a puzzle ive got a few of the birset ones in order so now i am trying to untangle cleuchbrae also do you think mid dargavel kerrs and dalry kerrs\are related ther both have a john lorimer kerr the ones in dary were originally at brocklehurst and mid dargavel were at satinhurst i have not found where that is yet but i have seen it on other births csc
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Morning csc , just a quick response to latest George Kerr son of Mary Kerr in the farm house certainly got around first with little Georgina in 1840 and with George and James in 1844 and 1846 later when he married he had five more children. regards stoop.
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georgina kerr natural daughter of -----boyd was born 11th april 1840 baptized 25th june mother being ----g kerr who was accuse by her ------- in 1851 sheis at cummertrees with her mother agnes and a sister named mary ann dunbar aged 1 address is hen - nest //???? CSC
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Hi csc ref. George Kerr he had two sons to Margaret Irving in Mouswald, James born 25/2/1846 and George born 10/4/1844 James was brought up with his mother and her parents while George lived with his grandmother Mary Kerr( Slater) at Doweel farm. George was employed as a brewery traveller living initially in Annan where he married Ann Pool a farmers daughter by 1861 they were resident at 1 Dacre st. Carlisle they already had the following children William born 24/3/1856, Mary Jane born 1858 both at Bridgend Annan, then Janet in 1859 and Martha in1861 both in Carlisle finally there was Francis .G. in1866 by then George senior had died and in the census of 1881 they are living quite comfortably I think at 49 Chiswick st. Rickergate Carlisle Ann was described as an annuitant taking in boarders who were themselves of independent means. The girls lived at home still and were school mistress/ governesses. Ithink that Francis was a girl and G was Georgina, she never knew her father it certainly would be interesting to read his will if he left one . George senior died when he visited his mother at Doweel cause of death aporplexy( a stroke). regards stoop.
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yes george was maybe a good looking man with plenty of chat up lines csc
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does anyone know anything about agnes irving died 1769 aged 40 first wife of william kerr who died 1800 his second wife mary dickson did william and agnes have any children csc
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marriage april 1850 dumfries david kerr farm servant of thid parish and mary kerr troqueer csc
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Hi csc just to identify Mary Kerr is the daughter of Mary Kerr(Slater) and David is the son of James Kerr farmer in Holywood regards stoop.
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hi stoop do you have any background for mary slaters husband i see they were married annan there is a big family of kerrs and pools at howes annan csc
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Evening csc , the husband of Mary Slater was Thomas Kerr born 19/12/1773 in Collin. They married in January 1805 in Annan, they lived in Milnfield, information gleaned was that Mary lived with her mother and father in Milnfield. Thomas was a servant in the service of William Neilson Esq. of Newbie an estate down on the Solway. I do not know how he secured employment there but he remained there having a number of children. When Neilson went bankrupt Thomas was able to move to the Stoop and rent a farm in 1841 it was described as a settlement(fermtoun). I would dearly lovto locate as I was born and brought up in Greenbrae Loaning, Stoop. Iam writing a letter to Annan library to ask them if they have any records of the estate around the time that Thomas was working there. They might reveal what his duties were . Thomas died in 1829 at the age of 56, he is buried in Mouswald kirkyard. Why do you think his will was not read until 1838?.
His children were Mary b. 19/1/1806 in Annan, Jean Millar b. 27/7/1807 Annan, James b. 6/7/1811 in Annan, followed by George on the 14/9/1817 in Annan finally Martha who was b. on the26/8/1820 at the Stoop. Mary Kerr(Slater) lived until 12/10/1878 she died at Doweel.
Regarding the Pattie family Ihave been trying to connect William Pattie and Agnes Dickie tothe other Pattie people at Mouswald. Regards stoop.
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it says on the birth for thomas mary and rachel born in collin no mothers name i think they must have been born in the village as on the other births on the records it names the place no occupation listed for the father do you know if there were any other children the father has to be born 1720ish i wonder if he originated from collin might be dumfries the town might have not been very pleasant in those days csc
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do you know if mary slater and her husbands children had any middle names you might get their grandmothers surname from there csc
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Evening csc, can I address the two previous postings of yours. I do think that it was James Kerr and Martha Moffat that lived at Rigghead Collin. According to their birth records the children were born in Collin. James was born around 1718 and died 3/12/1789 at Cleughbrae, Martha Moffat his wife was born 10/6/1728 and died 11/1/1803 at Mouswald Banks. They had the following children, Mary 1749, Robert 15/9/1754, John 1756, Joseph 17/5/1768 he died in infancy, Rachel 1 George 17616/6/1762 died 1832 at Cleughbrae, died 20/2/1826 at Racks, Jannet born 1753 died March 1811, James was born in 1771 died 24/11/1850 at Elizafield, Thoma was born 19/12/1773 and died 25/3/1829 at the stoop. There were two children born previously in Collin Rachel in 1753 and Thomas in 1753 I think that these two children died perhaps in infancy and then they were renamed later. Last but not least relating to the children of Thomas Kerr and Mary Slater, somewhere I have the parents of Mary and just to finish the father of Thomas was James Kerr and Martha Moffat.
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a lot of the farmers in mouswald andarea are described as tenant farmers so i suppose there would be a big landowner around who would maybe reside in london half the year and have a factor to see to the lettings i wonder if it would be brocklehurst or comlongan csc
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Morning csc , how do we go about finding out who their landlords were?. I will contact Erica Johnson , archivist at the library. Did Bucleugh have estates there as well as Lag?. regards stoop.
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i wonder whether the archives in burns street or the library would have any info i have a couple of days off at the end of the month i will go and ask christeen
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Hi csc, Would you happen to know when the first janet Kerr(Tweedie) died?. Just supposing that Janet Tweedie was the first wife of James Kerr with their 4 known children and she died in about 1753 then he married Martha Moffat. Suppose further that the first Rachel died in infancy and when James remarried they named another baby girl Rachel, born only 10 years later. Rachel as a name as far Iam aware is not used until Robert Kerr names his daughter Rachel. It is difficult to consider that back in the very early 18th. century there were two James Kerr born around 1720 in or near Collin , it would mean that there were two Kerr families. I would appreciate your thoughts regarding this scenario. regards stoop.
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rachel is fairly unusual and i would think they would be related there are a few tweedies related to the kerrs and i have wondered if some of them are related it would not be unusual to name 2 chidren the same name after 1 died i have several in my charlton side where this has happened christeen
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rachel is obviously an important and special name to james kerr would not surprise me if it was his mothers name a very pretty feminine name different from the usual janets and marys csc
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I do agree it symbolises something special, if only we can establish the link between both Rachels. One other research method will be to trawl through memorial inscriptions around the early and middle 18th. century. Regards stoop.
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kerr marriage 10 12 1833 james kerr and sarah pattie were proclaimed on the 8th and married on the 10th december 1833 children agnes 03 02 1837 troqueer george 15 09 1849 terregles james 11 06 1847 troqueer jane 07 11 1843 mouswald john 03 09 1854 terregles martha 05 01 1852 terregles mary 09 01 1839 troqueer sarah 28 12 1842 troqueer thomas 28 04 1845 troqueer william 29 12 1840 troqueer death james kerr farmer married to sarah phillips pattie november 18th 1874 63 yeards father thomas kerr farmer dec. mother mary kerr m/s slater cancer of the face william kerr son present nov20th 1874 terregles schoolhouse john a carse registrar 1877 june 6th sarah phillips kerr widow of james kerr farmer 65 years father william pattie farmer dec. mother agnes pattie m/s dickie congestion of the liver one month general debility james kerr son st helens lancashire csc
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ontario canada marriages george kerr 24 father james kerr mothers name sarah pattie kerr spouse name jessie mcburnie spouse mother jane ferguson mcburnie marriage 22aug 1873 york occupation carpenter jessie mcburnie 23 dumfries scotland james and jane ferguson mcburnie canada death george kerr dec.17th 1917 66 years cancer of the tongue 1 year occupation farmer married father thomas kerr witness looks like mm kerr monk road mount pleasant cemetery south crosby csc
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john kerr age 16 1871 grocers app 1891 grocer cargenbridge wife margaret 35 john 36 james 6 jane 4 hugh 2 sarah 5 months 1901 grocer shopman cargenbridge john 46 margaret 45 james 16 jane 14 hugh wallace kerr 12 sarah 10 david john 8 margaret 5 the name wallace with kerrs again csc
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Hi csc, John Kerr and Mrgaret Wallace were my great grandparents, parents of my grandfather Hugh Wallace Kerr who married my grandmother Ada Smith who was born in Keighley, Yorkshire. Referring to your posting before about the children of my g.g. grandparents James Kerr and Sarah Pattie in particular George who was born in 1849, I cannot think why I ldo not have a record of him, I have concerning all the others. Therefore I will add all the details you have given me. Do you have information regarding all the other children if not I will inform you with what I have. Regards stoop.
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i dont have much about them but if you send what you have i might pick up something i was looking at that family as i know some of the places mentioned and i think some kerrs are in terregles churchyard right behind the old school which is now ajoiners place i am at terregles quite often is newbridge farmhouse on the hardthorn road i got georges birth from scotlands people and the canada one from ancestry csc
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Good morning csc, the following relates to the children of James Kerr and Sarah Pattie who were married on the 10/12/1833 at Mouswald.
Jane was b. 7/11/1834 at Pearmont farm Troqueer on the Goldielea estate. She married John Mckinnell on 1/1/1855 at Newbridge farm Newbridge Terregles.
Agnes wasb. 3/2/1837 at Pearmont. She married James Kerr 27/3/1860 at Newbridge farm.
Martha was b. 5/1/1852 at Newbridge farm. she married James Riddick 8/12/1885 at Shambellie Grange New Abbey.
Sarah was born 28/12/1842 atPearmont farm. She married John Mcfaden 16/7/1877 at Newbridge farm.
William was born 29/12/1840 at Pearmont . He married Jane Hannah 1/12/1863 at Troqueer.
David was b. 1/6/1852 at Newbridge . He married Janet Hill 24/2/1881 at Beyond the Burn Mouswald.
John was b. 3/9/1854 at Newbridge .He married Margaret Wallace 6/3/1884 at Sutherland Terrace Maxwelltown.
Thomas was b. 28/4/1843 at Pearmont He died single 15/2/1867 suddenly.
James was b. 11/6/1849 at Pearmont Who did he marry?.
George was born 15/9/181849 atNewbridge. Who did he marry?.
More information to follow regards stoop.
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was having a look at he cemetery in ontario where george was buried was unable to access names on graves site currently unavailable hundreds of kerrs and mcburnies in ontario no wonder we cant find them here am still looking csc
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Sorry for butting in but Newbridge Farm is on the Glasgow Road nearly opposite the road into Lochside. The farmer there is a Roddy Dickson, he has stables there as well. As far as I know the Dickson family have been there for a very long time. In fact if you go into the Ewart Library there is a photograph on the wall of his father in his charabanc bus.
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Kathgill, any ideas on Roddy Dickson's ancestry? his parents or grandparents names?
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Hi Kathgill, perhaps you can resolve my confusion, firstly looking at o.s. map Newbridge farm is on the a76 to Sanquhar road and Newbridge hamlet is beyond the farm. Secondly I know that the Kerr family tenanted Newbridge farm from 1851 to the 1960s. I have attempted to make contact with a Kerr relative who lives in Newbridge village his house is built in the grounds occupied by a cottage that housed a farm worker of Newbridge farm. I also know that there was Hardthorn farm tenanted by another Kerr family member that is near Lochside on the map. I do not think the farm exists any more but was likely to have been along Hardthorn Road. It was last tenanted by the Kerrs in the 1950s. I do hope you can help regards stoop.
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Hi Stoop. The Dickson family have farmed at Newbridge farm for a long time. I had an Aunt and Uncle who farmed at Knowhead which was a neighboring farm and they were friends with the Dicksons. I really don't know anything about the Kerr's but they certainly were not tenants in the 1940s to 1960. I can't think of any Kerr's who farmed in that area around the 1960s I was a member of the local Young Farmers Club around the mid 1960s and knew a lot of the local farmers but can't recall the name of Kerr. Hardthorn Farm is no longer a farm a lot of the land was sold off for housing a long time ago. The house is still there though. If I can find any more information I will get back in touch
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Good evening Kathgill, I can shed more light on the Kerr tenancy of Newbridge farm. Taken from the valuation rolls in 1859 James Kerr was paying 168 pounds a year in rent, later his son David was paying 147 pounds a year in 1895. The owner was Constable Maxwell of Terregles then a Herbert Constable m. Stuart. I cannot say for certain when the Kerr family gave up Newbridge. Perhaps this will help to fit the pieces together . The kerrs left Hardthorn in the 1950s. Regards stoop.
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there seems to be quite a few kerrs married to kerrs i see agnes who is probably named after agnes dickie her grandma married to joseph kerr the blacksmiths son who is likely a distant relative csc
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Hi .Christeen I have tried to find details of Agnes and Joseph without success , have you got them?. Thanks Roger.
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yes on the 27th day of march 1860 at newbridge farmhouse marriage after banns according to the forms of the united presbyterian church james kerr 24 parish of penpont agnes kerr 23 newbridge parish of terregles he is a joiner journeyman she is a spinster parents joseph kerr smith master isabella kerr m/s johnstone james kerr farmer sarah kerr m/s pattie registered at terregles schoolon the 9th march reg.john carse signed john torrance u p church dumfries james nicol witness mary kerr witness csc
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did william kerrs wife jane hannah die in manitoba canada 1919 csc
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Thanks for that Christeen, and yes Jane died at Wharfdale Maitoba. I have gathered quite a lot of information about Jane and the children who followed her to Canada , I will tell you what I know. I still have to give you the details regarding the children born to the children of James Kerr and Sarah Pattie. Regards stoop.
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hi stoop do you know anything about this family thomas kerr farmer born 1776 torthorwald wife isabella born lochrutton children james 1807 jane 1809 daughter 1811 rachel 1813 isabella 1815 adam 1819 thomas 1821 was at drumjohn kirkgunzeon 1851 drumjohn is only about 3 miles fron doweel it is the rachel i was looking at as far as i can see she married james richardson mcneillie in johnstonebridge 1843 and died in ontario a lot of patties have gone to canada as well you probably have lots of canadian cousins csc
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interesting birth mouswald 01/07/1754 sarah philip prents william philip and janet mundal also in kirkpatrick fleming william 30/07 1780 ann 13/07/1788 parents thomas pattie/sarah philip csc
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Hi csc, I have probably followed your research path. In 1841 the census states that Thomas and Isabella and children were in New Abbey at a farm called I think, Cullendish. In 1851 Isabella and Thomas are at Drumjohn with the remaining children Isabella and Jane. Isabella died in 1862 at the age of 76 her father was Adam Corrie and her mother was Isabella Black. Unfortunately Thomas died before 1855 so the only hope of finding out who his parents were is through locating his burial place. Regards stoop.
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found another surprisig birth feb.7th 1753 james ker and tabitha moffat cleuchbrae had a daughter baptized named janet either george in howthat had 2 names or she had 2 husbands or their are 2 tabitha moffats married to ker does anyone know csc
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looking back at my notes for george and tabitha i do see a jannet who died in infancy i also have a david john mary and robert mary and robert were at piehills where my francis was born i did not know they were ever at cleuchbrae this is the pair i first looked at for my george they are buried dalton ive been to look at their grave i think they might have other children i have not got yet csc
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there has to have been several thatched roofed cottages at woodside elizafield banks cleuchbrae in mouswald old parish records i cant find any kerrs getting into mischief but the dicksons appear to be outdoing everybody everybody is getting into trouble with the church for drunkeness and gathering nuts on sunday i wonder if that meant firewood they would not have been able to afford coal it was available but expensive do you think they would have candles and lamps csc
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I have just discovered a Thomas Ker , married to Mary Slater who had a son called James Ker ( born 1811 in Annan). Does anyone have any details on Thomas Ker as the marriage certificate holds no clues to his parents.
Thanks
Jon Kerr
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Hi Jon Thomas was my g.g.g.g. grandfather his father was James and his mother was Martha Moffat Thomas belonged to a large family I will be pleased to share what information I have regards stoop.
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Brill ! :) could you email me?
(*)
Do you also have a link to James Ker in Tewkesbury?
Thanks mate
Jon
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p.s thanks CSC for the message - it would not let me send you an email back from some reason!
Jon
Please see above note- you need to have at least 3 posts before using Personal Message (PM) system and then you'll be able to exchange details like email addresses.
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does anyone know if mary slater was born troqueer 1783 were her parents daniel/marrion milligan csc
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Hi csc yes she was born in 1783 at Troqueer I have quite a bit on the Slater family I will send you tomorrow regards stoop.
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Hi csc, here is what I have regarding the Slater connection. The Slater family were living in the parish of Urr but Mary Slater was baptised in the parish of Troqueer. She had the following siblings George baptised 20/10/1780 at Bridgend Maxwelltown he must of died in infancy, George and Mary twins baptised13/1/1783 in Bridgend, Margaret baptised 7/11/1784 at Bridgend, Thomas Gordon baptised 16/1/1786 in Cuil, parish of Buittle. The family then moved to the parish of Urr and are buried in Urr cemetery. I have forgotten to mention that the children were thse of Daniel Slater and Marion Milligan. Daniel died in 1802 at the age of 50 years, Marion died in the year 1828 aged 81, their son Thomas died in the year 1832 at the age of 45, John who was also a son of Daniel and Marion died at lower Hardgate on the 2/6/1849 aged 72. There will be more to come that relates more personal details. Regards stoop.
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Hi csc, to continue James Slater son of John Slater died in South America in 1833 aged 19, also his son Andrew died 7/7/1845 aged 3 also Margaret his daughter who died 19/8/1865 aged15, Mary Milligan Johns wife died 3/7/1868 aged 51, also John Slater who died at Hardgate on the 17/10/1899 aged 82, his daughter Mary died at Kirkland, Colvend on the 3/2/1928 aged 75
Just a few words about Thomas Kerr and Mary Slater they were both living at Milnfield ,Annan in the census of 1811 , presumably that is where they first met.
The Slater family are mentioned in the book The Parish of Urr-a history by the rev. David Drew, published 1909
.page 89 in the early days of the century(1800s) there were a number of small crofts in the Hardgate locality, with houses and offices upon them while two were situated further down the village, and were held respectively by James Rae and John Slater. With the exception of a few fields now in the occupation of Robert Slater, the lands of these crofts were combined in later years to form the small farm of Hardgate, of which Alexander McKie is the present tenant. The Slaters, it may be noted, are a very old Hardgate family, the great grandfather was Alexander Slater, and he is said to have lived at Sowerhill, the house that still stands between the present school and schoolhouse.
Andrew Slater in Sowerhill married Mary Johnston daughter of James Johnston in Newlands in the parish of Urr on the 10/7/1819. He was probably a son of Daniel Slater and Marrion Milligan.
There is an entry in the Dumfries Weekly Journal 16/3/1779 page 4 column A the article is notice of the sale of the lands of Peartree and Knockjeeg, in the parish of Irongray, being sold by public roup. The sale was to take place on the 1/4/1779 within the house of Daniel Slater, inn keeper at Milton of Urr. I wish to thank Erica Johnson at the Ewart library for all this information , regards stoop.
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does anyone have any info on the children of george kerr and ann davidson buried mouswald csc
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I hope people (especially csc and Stoop) are still monitoring this thread occasionally. I just stumbled onto it while Googling myself silly looking for missing links in my Kerr ancestry. This thread has been a goldmine for me! Here is my Kerr ancestry, as I can best reconstruct it:
James Kerr (1718-1789) b. UNK; d. Mouswald, Dumfriesshire
+Martha Moffat (1728-1803) b. UNK; d. UNK
- John Kerr (1756-?) b. Mouswald Banks, Dumfriesshire; d. Mouswald Banks, Dumfriesshire
+Jean Tweedie (1768-1841) b. Mouswald, Dumfriesshire; d. UNK
-- John Kerr (1786-1843) b. Mouswald Banks, Dumfriesshire; d. Mouswald, Dumfriesshire
+Agness Johnstone (1806-?) b. UNK; d. UNK
---David Kerr (1828-?) b. Dalton, Dumfriesshire; d. UNK
+Mary Bell (1826-?) b. UNK; d. UNK
---- (Rev.) John Kerr (1852-1920) b. Trohoughton, Dumfriesshire; d. Haddington, East Lothian
+Maria Groves (c. 1864-1943) b. London, England; d. Sydenham, England
----- Winnifred Violet Kerr (1894-1957) b. Dirleton, North Berwick; d. Bromley, Kent, England
+Leonard John Willis (1884-1942) b. Blackheath, England; d. Sydenham, England
------ Violet Joyce Willis (me Mum!)
I would be most interested -- and grateful -- for any information that will fill in some of the missing information (the "?" and "UNK"). None of our Kerr surnamed family are still alive (the Rev. John Kerr's only grandson died without heirs), so I would also be keen to meet some of my Kerr cousins! Also, of course, any thoughts on how to determine James Kerr's parents would be most welcome, as well.
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Hi
I've put info on the other thread that you've started ( http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,420702.0.html ) - relating to this:
john kerr married agnes johnstone march 1823 lochmaben
children
janet: 28/8/1824 lochmaben
william: 1/3/1826 lochmaben
david: 1828 lochmaben
John: 1831 lochmaben
isabel: 1834 lochmaben
thomas: 1835 lochmaben
jean: 17/2/1839 torthorwald
agnes: 1840 lochmaben
agnes: 23/4/1843 torthorwald
mary: 1847 torthorwald
1841 census- raemoor, tortorwald
john-45-farmer
agnes-35
david-13
john-11
thomas-6
isabella-3
jean-2
agnes-1 month
Gadget
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hi great to have another kerr 1828 birth david son to john kerr and agnes johnstone upper butterthwaite male birth 23rd february baptized 3rd march marriage 5th november 1847 david son of john kerr raemuir and mary bell daughter of james bell branetrig marys brother is also a preacher csc
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1768 jean tweedie daughter tojames tweedie and janet bell his spouse in banks was born on the 23rd february baptized 28th csc
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the other kerr family at barlouth thomas kerr/janet johnstone janet was the daughter of robert johnstone farmer dalton no wonder there is confusion thomas was obviously a bit older than janet csc
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janet johnstone/kerr parents were robert/isobel roddick roberts address on marriage is kirk---- isobels was brae dalton 4 children listed george jane janet and another un named birth 2 days before janets maybe twins 1 not surviving csc
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kerr marriage 21st march 1852 torthorwald john kerr farmer barlouth and catherine henderson redhills the barlouth kerrs were previously at mouswald banks csc
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Hello there
Not sure if this is still an active post .... my ggg grandfather was Thomas Kerr b c 1800 son of James Kerr and Janet Tweedie. His son Joseph left Scotland for Australia in 1857. I have been going through the thread to see if there is any information I don't have although all the different Kerrs makes it very confusing! I have found Thomas in the 1841, 51 census also have John Kerr in 1861. Thomas was a joiner and bacon curer/dealer at Elizafield and John inherited the business on his death in 1859. Quite a few of the family died in a typhus epidemic in 1849/50. What I can't seem to find is Thomas's birth (not recorded?) or any sign of siblings. It seems odd that there was only one child. also would like to know when he was born as 1800 is a bit of a guess. I can't find either Thomas or his father in the OPR for births/marriages. Anyone had any luck with that?
Happy new year from the Australian Kerrs!
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welcome to the kerr page have got info on lots of kerrs will have a look for you one of my family george kerr was in the australian army he was born torthorwald csc
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How lovely to get such a quick reply. If you need any Australian info I can probably help. Although I don't have a George in a direct line I'm sure I can find info if you need it! Joseph (Thomas's son) seems to have been the only one of that family that came out as his elder brother inherited and I'm pretty sure I just found a monumental inscription showing that his younger brother Robert died at 10 yrs old. I think only two of the girls survived and they stayed in Scotland. Isn't the internet wonderful!
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i have a marriage 1824 torthorwald james kerr joiner and mary hutchison mary is a relative of the hutchisons on another thread last month if you look at the henderson/vivers/hutchison items csc
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if james kerrs grave inscription is correct death 1850 age 86 years hid dob is 1764/65 i wonder if he is the son of john ker dalton there are james born torthorwald but they are too young janet tweedies dob should be 1771/72 death 1843 age 72 her name could also be jean/jane csc
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i have just had another look at marriage cert it definatly says james 24/3 1824 on his second 15/01/54 it says thomas/agnes forsyth mary hutchison was the daughter of robert h /margaret swan born 17/03 1807 margaret swan died 1851 csc
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That's confusing. I have Mary Hutchison married to Thomas Kerr not James. That same headstone that gives James Kerr (Thomas's father) on it dying age 86 also has Mary Hutchison wife of Thomas Kerr. She is also in the 1841 census with him (well at least a wife named Mary). I looked up the marriage you mentioned thinking it may have been bad handwriting but no - 2 x Mary Hutchison's in Torthorwald? Just saw your recent message, yes Agnes Forsyth is listed as Thomas's second wife and after his death in the 1861 census it has her living at Elizafield with two step children who are the youngest of Thomas and Mary's.
I have got information that James is possibly the son of James and Martha Moffat but can't find evidence.
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yes i had to look twice thought i had it wrong i wonder if it was just a mistake on the registrars part i also looked to see if thomas/agnes had any children not found any i am very interested in this family as my gran agnes kerr her sisters mary and jeannie hutchison kerr are all born elizafield their brother archibald was born mouswald banks cott we have no grandfather listed our great gran mary agnes kerr was single as was her mother mary dickson kerr my lot were not born till 1890s i wonder about these tweedie ladies married to kerrs are related csc
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Just attempting to attach the census with Agnes Kerr and her marriage to Thomas
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yes the other one is oprs very confusing ages might be about correct on grave if you look back at kerr usa you will see 3 kerr brothers married to 3 johnsone sisters no wonder we are confused csc
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While trying to tidy my study I found an old letter on Kerr research my aunt did which might help you.
I don't know where all her info came from but I know she was writing to cousins in the UK.
James Ker b. c1718 at Cleughbrae, d. 3 Dec 1789 age 71 buried Cleughbrae.
He married
Martha Moffat b. c1727 died 4 April 1802 buried Cleughbrae
they had 7 children and three of their sons James George and John married three Tweedie girls.
John Ker M. Jean Tweedie b. c1757
George Ker m. Mary Tweedie b. c1755
James Ker m Janet Tweedie b c1771
she thought that Mary and Jean were sisters and that Janet may have been a sister or niece.
James Ker and Janet Tweedie appear to only have had the one child who is my ggg grandfather
Thomas Kerr. His first wife was Mary Hutchison who died before him and was the mother of his 8 children and Agnes Forsyth who survived him and died in 1895.
I thought I might get an extremely large piece of paper, print out all the pages of this post and see if I can map the Kerrs from the information. Should keep me amused for a week or two :)
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Hi Kerr Aust. and c.s.c . a happy new year to you both. Well we are now into the 12th. page of this topic and the information regarding our particular family roots continues to increase. Like you Kerr I am trying to collate it and make sense of the family groupings. Perhaps we could through p.m.s detail what we have relating to our own particular branches. Might be a little long winded but each of us might obtain information that fills in some gaps. Looking forward to your responses, regards stoop.
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i downloaded robert kerr the tailors will a while ago am having difficulty reading it it definitely mentions james kerr joiner elizafield it also says something about cousins robert kerr was the son of george kerr/tabitha moffat at least one of his siblings janet was born cleuchbrae and george/tabitha are buried dalton csc
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james kerr and rober kerr are cousins so therefore old george buried dalton and james father are brothers old george is born abt 1720 csc
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I just returned from spending Christmas thru New Year with Mum (now age 90) in San Diego, where I related to her most of the recent information I've gleaned from this and other discussions on RootsChat. Probably due to her grandfather's divorce and resulting family disgrace, she had previously known little more of her Kerr ancestry than her mother (Winnifred Violet Kerr), grandfather (the Rev. John Kerr), aunts, and uncles. She was thrilled beyond words to learn of her great-, great-great-, great-great-great-, and great-great-great-great-grandparents!
So I wanted to start my first posting for the new year with a HUGE "Thank you!" to all of you who have provided this information -- particularly csc and Stoop in this particular discussion. I might have learned it someday, but probably not in Mum's lifetime, so I am extremely grateful to all of you! I know that you have graciously shared with me information that has taken you enormous time, and possibly considerable expense, to acquire.
It does seem that we've reached a barrier of sorts, however. I've noticed with the Kerrs, as well as other surnames, that little seems to be known of them prior to 1700. In this discussion, we've traced the Kerrs back to James (b. 1718) and his brother William, but no further. The same appears true of the Bells, Tweedies, Moffats, Dicksons, Johnstones, and others ... nothing prior to 1700. Does anyone know the reason for this? Are there no records prior to this time? Or do they exist, but not yet online? Any suggestions -- short of me flying to Scotland -- how we take these lines further back?
I have found considerable information online about the Kersland Kerrs, Ferniehirst Kerrs, Cessford Kerrs, etc. from Norman times to about 1600 or 1650, so it would seem that we are only two or three generations from being able to link our Dumfrieshire Kerrs to their origins ...
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how about tabitha and martha as sisters why did i not think it before johnstone sisters tweedies now the moffats i am so slow at figuring things out csc
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As I'm stuck at home with the flu I thought I'd sit down with that large sheet of paper I mentioned and map all the Kerrs and associated families on this post. I was hopelessly mixed up by page 5! I like the idea of Tabitha and Martha Moffat as sisters. Then given the way things seem to work in the area, George Kerr (Tabitha's husband) may be another brother for James and William. I did a quick search through the OPR on Scotlands People but no luck. Will keep trying.
While I was going through this post I noticed mention of the Hutchison Kerrs. I have an old Kerr photo album given by my g grandfather to his mother Annie wife of Joseph Kerr b Elizafield 1835 who came out to Australia. Among the very few photos that are labelled are two of Robert Hutchison Kerr taken by R. Wilson 121 High Street, Dumfries. One of them has written on the back of it "ever your affectionate brother R. Hutchison Kerr. There is also an in memoriam notice Robert Hutchison Kerr who departed this life October 8 1890 aged 45 years. Happy to scan the photos if anyone wants them. Would love to know where he fits in. Not bad looking with wonderful mutton chops and full kilt.
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would love to see the pictures am also off work chest infection -13 on my computer just now i think half of these kerrs are not registered i have spent a fortune looking for my francis dad george i believe he is the son of one of these brothers there appears to be george /tabitha james /marta william/agnes/mary joseph my francis was born pyehills same place as robert who left the will his brother robert was born whitecroft dalton not found any more boys although we think there should be there are several girls janet anna mary whom we have not found except for births and annie who died at elizafied and susan kerr/harkness who died at moffat i believe my elizafield kerrs and yours will be related csc
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Bound to be related! A couple of other photos taken by Birtles in Warrington one of Mary Anne Smith Truda Kerr age 14 with Robert Hutchison Smith Kerr age 9 years. He's in full regalia. Where do the Hutchison Kerr's come in? I don't suppose that Robert Hutchison is the son of Thomas Kerr and Mary Hutchison? He would be the right age and that would mean he had sent the photo to his brother Joseph in Australia. I also have a photo of Joseph. The family definitely seemed to be into photographs. I just wish they had been into labelling them as well!
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I have just viewed these images on Scotlands People . John son to George Ker and Tabitha Moffat born 16th. June 1763 at Howthwat in the parish of Ruthwell. Jannet daughter to George and Tabitha born 8th July 1768 at Howthwat in Ruthwell. William son to William Ker and Mary Dickson born 22nd. July 1779 in Cleughbrae. Joseph son to William and Mary born December 26th. 1773 in Cleughbrae. James son to Joseph Ker and Jean Latimer born 16th.JULY 1774 at Mouswald Banks. Mary daughter to Benjamin Ker and Mary Irving born 27th. April 1774 at Mouswald Banks.
Can we say that James, George, William, Joseph, and Benjamin were likely to have been brothers?.regards stoop.
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yes i think so probably a john in there somewhere as well csc
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also benjamins wifes name was irving as was williams first wife am i looking too far csc
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This sounds great. If we can find a birth for one of them to get parents names we may have our founding Kerr family for the area. That would start making Kerr USA's idea of moving beyond the 1700s more feasible. On names, you'll probably not be surprised to find that once Joseph came to Australia he followed the family tradition and had Martha, Mary, Thomas, John, Joseph also Annie but that was his wife's name. The only name we don't seem to have continued here is James.
I've just been completely sidetracked by Robert Hutchison Kerr. If I can prove he is the youngest son of Thomas Kerr and Mary Hutchison then these photos and in memoriam notes I have are him sending the family news and photos to his brother Joseph in Australia, which I love the idea of! I've just ordered his death cert to see. Also he moved to Cheshire and seems to have done well from himself as his wife's in memoriam note says wife of R.H. Kerr of Spark Hall, Stretton, Near Warrington.
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have you seen any birth certs for thomas/marys children csc
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I got the info from my aunt and she concentrated on the direct line so I must admit I haven't actually seen any of the original birth details. They were apparently all born at Elizafield and the date info I have is
John b 1825 - ?
Martha 1828 - 1850 Typhus
Margaret 1830 - 1849 Typhus
Joseph 1830 - 1897 Died Australia
Janet 1838 - ?
Annie 1842 - 1849 Typhus
Robert 1846 - ? (if this is Robert Hutchison Kerr he died in 1890)
Mary 1848 - ?
Martha, Margaret, Annie and their mother Mary all died of typhus either the last couple of weeks of Dec 1849 or the first couple of weeks of Jan 1850. They are all on the same page in the OPR. Their grandfather James died on 24 Jan so it must have been a truly horrifying time for everyone.
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Does anyone know who owned Elizafield and the other land that our ancestors farmed? I've been trying to get a feel for the period as I thought it would help us in finding other records that might connect some of the missing dots. Was there a laird?
There seems to have been a major famine in 1690s although the book I read said Dumfriesshire wasn't as badly off, then there were the Jacobites cropping up every couple of years......
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griersons appear to be the big landowners we might be able to find out about elizafield every time i pass the sign post i wonder where granny was born there would probably be an assortment of old cottages there are a lot of new bungalows around there now further along the road at wath where my francis died there used to be old cottages when i was a child in the 50s wish i had paid attention was not interested then csc
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Good afternoon all following the Kerrs of the Mouswald area. Relating first to the children of George Kerr and Mary Tweedie that is Aggie born in 1785 , Janet born 1790,Jean born 1798, Margaret b. 1792, Martha born in 1785, Mary born 1795 I know that William married Agnes Henry but is anyone knowledgable of whom the girls married or when they died. Thanking you stoop.
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i think aggy will be the agnes who died at elizafield 1950 aged 65 have you any idea what the post 1855 inscriptions say csc
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Hi csc I think you are right, I am trawling through the post 1855 mis. regarding the other sisters, covering Dalton and Torthorwald as well as Mouswald. Regards stoop.
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I realise this is an old post ,but I have just received information from a relative ,copies of gravestone inscriptions. I wondered if the following were buried in Mousewald churchyard.
John Porteous d 1805 and wife Jean Thorburn died 1816 at Cleughbrae
John Porteous d1839 and wife Janet Mcall d1817 at Cleughbrae
Janet Porteous d 1885
William Porteous d 1899 Cleughbrae cottage
Any information would be great
Thanks
EP
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Hi ep, I have looked through the memorial inscriptions relating to the Porteous people you have referred to. They are not mentioned at Mouswald , Torthorwald or Dalton, I will continue looking. Regards stoop.
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Could this be Cleuchbrae in the parish of Johnstone. There is a William Porteous on the 1841 census residing at that adress aged 14 living with Jennet Porteous aged 35 a dressmaker.
Kathleen
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i think it is johnstone there is a william illegitimate son of janet who dies there at that time dykehead cottage csc
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Hi ,
I think you are all right with the Cleuchbrae, Johnstone. The spelling I have is Cleughbrae, but it was written down a hundred years ago ! You have actually solved a puzzle I have ,I did wonder with the rest of the Porteous family who are all buried in Wamphray churchyard, why these ones were buried in Mousewald. Now I can look for them in Wamphray Cemetery.
Can`t thank you all enough, brilliant !
EP
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I have come to this conversation late after doing a search for Christopher Richardson, father of Robert Richardson 1807 and Jacob Richardson 1804, his wife is recorded as Diana Tod but I haven't been able to find a marriage.
In 1851 Christopher was living in Annan with his daughter Mary Irving (I haven't found her baptism either), she was a widow born Cummertrees.
I found Christopher Richardson baptised Mouswald 7 June 1768 son of John Richardson and Janet Dickson
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Please disregard my last post, I am posting it as a new topic instead.
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Hi Maggie,
As to your Jonah confusion, I have Jonah b 1787 marrying Janet Dickson, son of Jonah N and Ann Carruthers. Jonah born 1795 married Margaret Dickson. Jonah 1795 was son of John N and Mary Ann Smith. Both Jonah (1787 & 1795) were grandsons pf Benjamin N and Janet Friend. I have these Nicholsons in my tree due to some distant connection and as I tend to add whole families in of spousal lines I went over board plus the two Dicksons sparked my interest. One connection is Ann N dau of Jonah & Janet married James Grierson son of William G and Jean Charteris whose other son Richard married Janet Dickson elder sister of my 2G Grandfather Jacob Dickson. See how far I go.
I hadn't a spouse for Christopher 1781, so now I have, thanks, any other info on that line would be good as I have connections to the Jardines as well, pm me if you like
Cheers
Mick
Hi Mike,
Thank you for getting back to me on this. The details I have correspond with yours in every respect except that I have Benjamin N. married to Janet Irving (not Friend) but to be honest I don't know where I have got that information from as it is research done many years ago. I also have the will of Jonah N., wife of Janet in which mention is made of James Grierson and Ann Nicholson.
I will PM you then it doesn't get confusing on here.
Maggie
Hello, I realize this is an old post so hopefully someone is still on here -- did you ever find out if Benjamin Nicholson (1722) was married to Janet FRIEND or Janet IRVING? I can't seem to find any records for this so wondering where either names are coming from. Thanks so much! You can reply here or email at nicholson.hlee@gmail.com
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Hi. Just to let you know I’ve picked up on your message - I’m not on RC much these days and it’s ages since I have delved into my Scottish Nicholson’s. I’m not confident I can add anything new but I’ll have a look what I have once back home as I’m on a holiday at the moment.
I note I wrote “...the will of Jonah N. wife of Janet”. I think I meant “husband” ::)
Maggie
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I come to this topic late. I have only just discovered it. I do not know if Stoop or csc are still active on this thread, but thank you for all your interesting posts.
My interest in Cleuchbrae Kerrs is that Robert Kerr (1754-1834) is my gt gt gt grandfather and James Ker/Kerr (c1718-1789) is my gr gt gt gr grandfather.
I am sure that Robert moved to Cross Canonby in Cumberland and married a Nancy Porteous there in 1796. From then onwards he was Robert CARR (phonetically the same?) They had children; James (1797-1874), Martha (1798-), Jane (1800-) Sarah (1803-), John (1804-) William (1806-) Eleanor (1809-) and Rachel (1813-)
He died on 11 October 1834, aged 80.
I am sure that he is the Robert born Mouswald because of (a) DNA connections to me via his mother Martha Moffatt (b) the reference in his sister Rachel's will to him being in England (c) the names of his first two children are his parent's names - also a daughter Rachel and (d) the age is right.
His wife, Nancy Porteous (not so common south of the border) may be Ann Porteous born in nearby Ruthwell on 16 MAY 1769. Nancy is a diminutive of Ann.
I have two questions:
(i) apart from the Old Parish Registers and the Memorial Inscriptions, what records have you consulted successfully for 18th century Cleuchbrae/Mouswald Kerrs; and
(ii) on another tree, I have seen a date of birth or christening for James Kerr as 12 April 1718. I have been unable to find any source for that. Can any of you help?
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Hi Nic,
Welcome to RootsChat, yes stoop was online a few days ago he will be notified of your reply by email.
Regards
Sarah :)
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Hi Nic I will reply to you when I have digested what you and I both know to date and where we can go from here thanks stoop.
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Many thanks, Stoop. I look forward to hearing your thoughts in due course. I have done a reasonably thorough analysis of (i) directly relevant births on Scotland's people; (ii) the memorial inscriptions as published by DGFHS; (iii) Rachel's (1762–1832) will; and (iv) Robert (1754-1834) and descendants once he crossed the border. I don't know about any other sources. Best wishes, Nic
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Will be back in touch as soon as I can. Stoop.
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Hi Nic , To tell you my sources, I use ancestry.uk, Scotlands People, family search uk, rootschat uk, sometimes Gene's reunited. Over the past seven years I have accumulated a fair amount of information regarding my Kerr roots. The following begins with my grandfather Hugh Wallace Kerr, g.g grandfather John Kerr, ggg grandfather James Kerr gggg Thomas Kerr, then gggggg James Kerr 1718 to 1789, gggggg James Kerr 1692 to 1718 ggggggg another James Kerr.I will try to present any information in a more organised manner, incidentally what is your ancestry. Stoop.
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Many thanks, Stoop.
1. Do you have evidence of the baptism of James (1718 to 1789)? I have seen a date of birth or christening for James Kerr as 12 April 1718 in another tree, but it seems that may be based on a Liverpool baptism which is unlikely to be correct.
2. Do you have evidence of his father James 1692 to 1718? I understood that there are no Mouswald old parish registers that far back?
My Kerr connection is almost entirely matrilineal. Robert 1754-1834 was my 3x gt gf. His son James Carr 1797-1874 was my 2x gt gf, his daughter Jane Carr was my gt gm, her daughter Lucy Jane Lowe was my gm and my mother was Lucy Mildred.
Do I gather that you still live in the area of Mouswald?
Best wishes, Nic
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Hi Nic ,Regarding James who was born in 1692 he married Florentina Wilson and directly from the records of Scotlands People they had the following children John 7 of April 1687 then Samuel on the 5th of April 1685,Jean on the7th April 1690 last of all there was James born on the 25th May 1692. James and Florance married in Cramond Midlothian on the 20th of April 1684. I don't know where James Ker was born only that he died on the 3rd of December 1789 aged 71 he is buried in Mouswald churchyard, his wife Martha Moffat died on the 4th of April 1802 aged 75. It does appear from records on ancestry that James was baptised in 1722 at Norfolk although he was born in 1718.Like you I need to know by evidence that my research results can be verified. Your posts have prompted me to retrace what I have found to date not surprisingly I have a number of questions. Is James Ker who died in around 1718 buried in Mouswald churchyard with his wife Martha, As yet there not a monumental inscription for them in the M.I. Mouswald book. Will get back to you soon regards stoop.
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Many, many thanks, Stoop.
I have messaged several managers of FTs which include the April 12th date in their trees asking for their source, so far without success. I have just emailed Dumfries Archives and DGFHS to see if they are aware of any old parish registers which have not been digitalised. I will let you know if/when I make progress. The dates seem likely to be too far back to come from a family Bible.
With regards the earlier generations, do you have evidence that the Midlothian James is from the same immediate family as the Mouswald James? I looked at the 1722 Norwich baptism and was far from convinced of the connection. The father was described as a linen merchant. James Kerr and Martha are both common names.
I see that Mouswald Church is in the process of being sold for c£90,000.
Best wishes,
Nic
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Hi again Nic I agree with your concerns mentioned ,curiously regarding Kerrs who have left Scotland have primarily become linen merchants even into the early 20th century. I will explore some more ancestry that is relevant to both of us, regards stoop.
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Stoop, here is another concern. A number of on-line trees show William and Sarah Kerr baptised in Dumfries in 1765 and 1767 as children of James Ker and Martha Moffatt in Mouswald. That cannot be correct. Their father James was described as a shoe maker. An entry in the Mouswald Kirk Accounts for 7 August 1766 refers to “Jas. Ker Cleughbrae”. I think that is inconsistent with him also being a shoemaker in Dumfries. Also, the June 1767 baptism of Sarah in Dumfries is probably also too close to the 8 May 1768 Mouswald baptism of Joseph Kerr, son of JK and MM.
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I have also received a very helpful email from Erica Johnson, Genealogy and Local History Researcher at the Ewart Library in Dumfries who says that she is unaware of any reliable sources for the following three baptisms which appear in some on-line family trees:
James Ker 12 APR 1718, Dumfries. [It appears from his burial in Mouswald in 1789 that he was born c1718.]
John Kerr 2 JAN 1756, Mouswald Banks, son of James Ker and Martha Moffatt
Rachael Kerr 16 JUN 1762, Collin, Mouswald, daughter of James Ker and Martha Moffatt
She says that "The Mouswald Old Parish Registers have a note on the front which says that there were no regular records kept at the Kirk until the minister took office there in 1765, the entries in the register before 1765 are copied in by his hand from “all that is left” of the records he could find when he took office." Best wishes, Nic
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And a question. How would you pronounce Ker/Kerr? Cur? or Care? or Carr?
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Hi ,nicmadge definitely pronounced Kerr with a long eeeeeeeee will reply to you soon as I can comment on your latest posts regards Roger.
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Roger, when I try to say it out loud with a long eeeee it sounds like "Kier", as in Hardie or Starmer. Is that right?
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Good afternoon Nicmadge, think of berry without the y and I think we have it,write to you soon. I was born and brought up in the stoop area of Dumfries.regards Roger.
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Roger, I've been going through the Mouswald Kirk Accounts and found the following entry relating to John Ker (b c1756) which you may find interesting
“John Ker & Jean Tweedy’s fine for Ante-nuptial Fornication 6s 8d
Returned of Do’s Fine on Acct of Yr Circumstances 3s 0d "
Nic
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Well I never what times they lived in,very interesting. I am in the middle of house project then in a couple of days I can return your research regards Roger.
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Never read through this thread before...interesting.
CSC...
My evil h-sister is the great granddaughter William/Jane Hanna and yes Jane Hanna died in Manitoba 13 Mar 1919 and is buried in Miniota where her son Thomas first settled. It is also on the family stone in Terregles.
Thomas Kerr was an apprentice up in Dysart, Fife and his was mother came with him. His employer was David Raitt Robertson who owned a machining business. His daughter Isabella and Thomas held hands. Thomas and his mother left for Manitoba, Isabella followed and they married 01 Jun 1911 in Winnipeg. Thomas/Isabella died in Spear's SK where he had a hardware business.
Isabella died in 1930 and Thomas in 1944.
They had three children; David Raitt Kerr 1912-1945 (2 weeks before my sister arrived he is buried in Hamilton, ON). Margaret 1913-2011 (Shellbrook, SK) and Katherine Isabella 1915-1991 (South Concordia Union, SK). Family still reside in Saskatchewan and Alberta although only five or six still standing.
So yes, Stoop and my sister are 2nd or 3rd cousins.
Don
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Hi Don I always enjoy reading new information about our families it is constantly expanding our knowledge of our mutual ancestry, it is like a giant jigsaw where we are trying to fit together the right pieces.Regards stoop.
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Roger, I aim to be in the Mouswald/Dumfries area on Saturday June 26th. Will you be around? Would it be possible to meet you? Nic
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Hi Nic that would be good, I have just spoken to my son who is also interested even my wife would like to visit Dumfries again. We live in Liverpool although I was born and raised in Dumfries in the Stoop area to be precise. I will try to put a plan together and agree with you how we go about it regards stoop.
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Excellent!