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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: gazania on Saturday 23 February 08 02:15 GMT (UK)
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I have recently made a mini breakthrough thanks to Google and GoogleBooks which have digitised a lot of Irish references/publications in the 1840s - highly recommended.
My (Irish born) g grandfather wrote in his bible that after he completed his apprenticeship as a nurseryman in Clifton, Bristol, he then worked for "Hutchinson Pale?mo Bray Co Dublin". After years of searching, but thanks to GoogleBooks, I found mention of the villa of Palermo, belonging to the family of Synge Hutchinson, bart.
The estate has now been turned into a modern housing settlement, apart from some parkland which is listed on The National Inventory of Architectual Heritage at
http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/cgi-bin/viewsite.cgi?siteid=2570
The above site gives the following location for Palermo:
Barony/ Municipal Borough: Rathdown
Parish: Old Connaught
County: Dublin
Townland: Old Connaught
So I would like some help in locating a parish record that would cover this area, if possible.
I am looking for the baptism of Gertrude Annie LANE b about 1859 in the CofI or CofE religion. Thank you, Gazania
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any idea who her parents were.
regards mary.
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Hi Mary,
Thanks for your interest. Parents were James & Caroline LANE (nee Hall).
Regards, Gazania
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Records for Bray Parish Church (Co Wicklow) have survived and are available for Baptisms between the years 1670-1903. Marriage and Burial records have also survived.
Cheers
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Hi LH,
Thank you so much for the Bray Parish Records information. I now know never to give up on my Irish born relatives. Best regards, Gazania
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My mother lived in Palermo, Bray from the early 1920s for about 30 years. Did your grandfather still work in Palermo during that time? If so I would love to know his name and ask my mother (who is almost 90) if she remembers him.
My grandfather bought Palermo from the Synge Hutchinsons.
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Dear Daisy77,
Thank you for your interest. My g grandparents were James and Caroline (nee Hall) LANE. I would think they were at Palermo in the years 1852-1854 and possibly 1857-1861 - more than likely a bit before your family's time.
But I would appreciate anything you can tell me about Palermo. When did your grand father buy the house? What were the gardens like, where did the staff live. Where was the closest church. Regards to your mother and yourself. Gazania
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Hi Gazania
Palermo was a Georgian House set on almost 100 acres. There were several smaller houses (mainly for staff) on the grounds.
As far as I know there were no formal gardens, but there were many beautiful trees, lawns and flower beds etc.
The house itself was a typical Georgian House with a large hallway and elegant reception rooms. There was a ballroom too, with a minstrals' gallery. There were also the usual stables, outhouses, farm buildings, dairy etc.
My mother was brought to school in a pony and trap, while my aunt was taught at home by a governess!!
The closest Church of Ireland church would probably have been Christ Church, Bray, although there is another Church of Ireland in Crinken, Shankill which was also close by. In Bray there was also a Methodist and Presbyterian Church. My mother's family were Methodists.
The nearest Roman Catholic church would be St. Paul's on the main street in Bray.
I am not sure exactly when my grandfather bought Palermo, but I think it was either 1922 or 1923. If this is important I can certainly ask my mother.
In return, I would be interested to know where your own grandparents moved on to after leaving Palermo. Did they move to the UK or somewhere else in Ireland.
Regards, Daisy77
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Hi Daisy77,
Your personalised description of Palermo brought tears to my eyes. Thank you so much. For many years we have tried to make sense of the hard to read bible notes with the mention of Palermo.
In the 1851 census, Caroline Hall was a servant in Dorset House, Litfield Place, Clifton, Bristol, where the head was Sophia Hely-Hutchinson. Sophia was the daughter of Samuel Synge Hutchinson, bart.
John Lane (b ?1833 Cork) completed his apprenticeship as a nurseryman & probably worked on the gardens of the above house. I can only assume that Sophia, as she was widowed with children, returned to her family home in Palermo taking Caroline & James with her - 1852-1854.
In 1854, James and Caroline married in Clifton (no address given) and they had two children baptised in Uley GLS, 1855-1857. Their next child was born in Ireland in 1859 and they do not appear on the 1861 census in the UK.
Then from 1861- 1876 they lived at Manilla Cottage ( probably attached to Manilla Hall), Clifton. James with Caroline's business acumen, established a thriving landscape/ nursery business employing staff. They had five more sons in this time. William b 1861 went to Bristol Grammar school and showed prococious writing ability. He was also born with a club foot. Two other sons won Merchant Venturers scholarships to the Colston school.
Sadly Caroline died aged 49 and James fell apart; he drank heavily and the business declined. The family then moved to St Leonards, Sussex. James married again. In the mid 1880s the whole family migrated to Brisbane where James worked as a grocer as gardening was so poorly paid - no big mansions like there were in Clifton. Three of the sons hold prominent places in Australian history; two were journalists with William becoming the editor of The New Zealand Herald.
Thank you so much for your interest. Please let me know if I can give you any more information. Best wishes, Gazania
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Hello Everyone,
Can anyone help me with the date of her christening of Gertrude Annie Lane and what may have happened to her during her life. Her mother, Caroline is my great-grand aunt.
I understand that she lived at Palermo.
Thank You.
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Hi,
We could be related as Caroline nee Hall is my great grand mother. Gertrude Annie Lane was born 2 April 1859 in Ireland according to family folklore and the UK census. I can't find her baptism. Gertrude was pupil teacher and went to New Zealand as a governess then joined the rest of the family when they migrated to Brisbane in the 1880s. She joined the Queensland Education Dept but because she lacked formal qualifications she spent most of her teaching career in provisional schools in various small settlements in Queensland. She never married. She died in Brisbane 20 Dec 1933. She is buried in Toowong Cemetery, Brisbane. How else can I help? Gazania
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There are some 1850/60 baptisms for the Lane surname on Co. Wicklow section of the pay-website of the Irish Family History Foundation (www.rootsireland.ie) - including :
Gartrude Anne Lane 1859
Thomas Lane, 1864
Albertha Adelaide Lane, 1868
Juliana Lane, 1869
Thomas Robert Lane, 1855
These all seem to be in the Church of Ireland parish of Bray.
RootsIreland only have baptisms for the parish at the moment.
Some more details on the area
Old Connacht (http://www.libraryireland.com/topog/C/Connaught-Rathdown-Dublin.php) (Samuel Lewis - 1837)
OSI Map showing Palermo (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,725443,719268,6)
(see the 25" option for a c1890s map, and the 6" options for earlier 1820s/40s maps)
Shane
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Hi Shane,
Thank you so much for the information. I'll now get busy checking out your sites. Regards, Gazania
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In the 1851 census, Caroline Hall was a servant in Dorset House, Litfield Place, Clifton, Bristol, where the head was Sophia Hely-Hutchinson. Sophia was the daughter of Samuel Synge Hutchinson, bart.
Just to add that there was/is a prominent north county Dublin family of Hely-Hutchinsons with English connections. There's a large archive of their family papers in the Fingal County Archive in Swords. I don't know if it would be of any help here but thought it was worth mentioning.
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Gazania
had to go through this website and join up.
Found an old photo album in a job lot at auction some years ago. sorting out attic found it again
no names but a newspaper cutting stuck in it. Googled edward allport and it turned you up.
"on the 6th inst, at Bunyan Chapel, Bedford, by the Rev John Brown, the Rev Edward Allport Wareham, of Belgaum, India, to Susannah Rick, daughter of Mr Thomas Carling, Bedford, no cards!"
from the syle of clothing could be 1860 ish, but no names attached to any photo, I attached scanned news cutting
JT aka Lionhouse UK
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Hi,
Your information is amazing. EA Wareham & Susannah Rock Carling were married 6 Jul 1864 in the Bunyan Meeting House, Bedford. They are my ggrandparents. Now I am curious about the origins of the album. Before I can send you a private message for you to read, you will have to post two more messages here - thems the rules.
I am brimming over with questions, like any other place names? Are there many other photos?
As you can imagine I do look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for taking the trouble to track me down. Bye for now, Gazania
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does it have to be three postings like this?
there are 50 photos, including one of Queen Victoria, there may be names on the back of them, but I am fearful of damaging the album
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off to Sunday lunch, back for the Ireland France game
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thats three posts, so I will check later today. I will take a pic of the album that is metal bound with two clips. size 12x 16cm
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Hi,
Now I can leave a PM. Regards, Gazania
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Hi Gazania & Daisy
I was delighted to see this tread as I always wanted to know the history of Palermo prior to my grandparents (Fitzpatrick's) purchasing the estate in the late 50's.
I spent much of my childhood on the estate where the families of all seven children used to gather most Sunday's until its sale and subsequent demise in the early 80's.
Daisy, I would be interested to know your families name, as my family most likely purchased Palermo from your family.
I have plenty of photos of the old place if you would like to see some and it would be great if either of you have any also.
Best regards to you both
David
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My grandfather, Joseph Fitzpatrick was a bootmaker in Whitefriar Place. His father was John Fitzpatrick, born in Monaghan in around 1827. He joined the RIC at 20 and was posted to Mullingar. He married his first wife and then went to Blackstone in the USA. He returned to Mullingar at the start of the Civil War in the States and set up a leather goods business there. Their first son John, born in Ireland before they went to the states, was involved in the business. He married Catherine Bennett in 1880, but he died in 1888. His youngest son Thomas. born 1887, moved to England. He returned later and married Mary Kathleen Kennedy and I am told the lived in Palermo House in Bray.
Could this be the same Thomas Fitzpatrick as the one in my family tree?
Finbarr
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Hi Finbar
Seems you have found some extended family, my grandfather is the same Thomas Fitzpatrick from Mullingar ( I have attached a pic from the 70's at Palermo). He passed away in 1981 at the grand old age of 94. He had 7 children. The extensive lands and house were sold in 1982 to a developer and there is a housing estate called Old Conna Wood built there now. My granny Kathleen died a few years back and her sister Eithne only passed last year. Thomas had many business interests including a coach works at Palermo from where he started the first Wicklow to Enniskerry bus route. Later on he developed a leather goods business at Palermo from where he mainly produced gloves. He also owned lands at Enniskerry, a site on Ormonde Quay and several houses on the Sundrive Road in Crumlin.
The funny thing is that I am actually writing this from my in-laws in Mullingar, as I married a girl from here and I was always interested to know where in Mullingar Thomas lived.
I look forward to your reply and would be really interested to know about your side of the family
all the best
David
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Hi David
Thanks for your reply. I am a bit blown away by all this? When we were growing up my mother only vaguely mentioned her father had another brother, but there was never a name. So when her last brother died (1996), a woman appeared at his funeral trying to make contact with the Fitzpatrick family. But my mother would not talk to her. So I retired three years ago and stated to the family tree. As we have a very large gang on my father’s side it took me a while to get to the Fitzpatrick side. In looking at the Census I noticed my mother’s father had put in Mullingar as his place of birth and then crossed it out to put in Westmeath. This was my first introduction that my mother’s side came from Mullingar. In talking to my mother’s brothers wife (she was much younger than him and is still alive) she informed me the lady at the funeral was Thomas daughter and that they are still in touch. Using other websites I have gather a lot of information and copies of records.
It is funny that you should be back in Mullingar as there are still some living relations there (I think)? As you may know John Fitzpatrick (senior) married a second time to Marie Reilly and there had nine children, one of which was called William (1885). He married Margaret McEnroe (there are both buried in the local cemetery) and they have a living son, who have a living daughter, who has a living son. The address in the records for Mullingar are: Mount Street and 30 Greville Street (now called Pearse St – the one with the Greville Hotel in it).
Was the bus called the St. Kevin’s Bus. Photograph shows Joseph Fitzpatrick, Wife Margaret Nelson and five children including twins (taken 1907/08). My mother was not born till 1910.
Regards
Finbarr
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Hi David and Finbarr,
I am so glad this thread brought you both together. If each of you post one more post, no matter how brief, you can than send private messages to each other. See:
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Best wishes, Gazania
I received a lot of help from this thread, including the baptism of Gertrude Lane and a now found photo album. Thank you all.
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Hi Finbar
Gazania's suggestion is a good one, please respond to this post briefly and we can make further communication private. There is a lot I would like to clarify and chat about.
All the best
David
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Hi David
I agree. I am looking forward to sharing my information with you.
I was recently informed about a book called " A Pictorial History of Bray Co. Wicklow. Volume five The Town and Its people Part Four". It contains two pages of photographs of the Fitzpatrick family and Palermo House.
Regards
Finbarr
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My father Tom Fitzpatrick, bought Palermo estate in 1946 from two ladies who then moved to a house by the back gate. The Bray council took all but 29 acres from him in the late 50s to build a housing estate. We had a farm and then a glove factory. The property was bought by a development company in 1982 and is now a housing estate. It was a wonderful property with a 32 room main house and outbuildings? Here is a map of the total property http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/cgi-bin/displayimage.cgi?id=2570&size=f&type=m1
I have photos of the interior
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I found out today from my sister that Thomas Fitzpatrick bought Palermo from the hanstock sisters in 1941 after he sold the Wicklow bus company to cie in 1936
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Hi Finbar
I'm margaret your uncle val's granddaughter. I've really enjoyed reading the bits of history that you have found out about our family, and it was great to see the photo of joseph margaret and their family again i've not seen it since granda died. My dad (Gerard) is currently researching the family tree and has just returned from mullingar.
It would be so nice to see a completed family tree.
Margaret
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http://wicklow.rootsireland.ie/quis.php?page=1&confirmPageView=Y
As far as I can find out this is James marriage cert (no guarantees, as they wont let you look at them without paying) but the date ties in roughly with the age of Gertrude.
If you register, and then go county by county genealogy centre, it will give you a list of the parishes. However, if for any reason she was christened in Carlow or Dublin City, these are not listed on the site yet.
Im from Dun Laoghaire, so Im familiar with Bray and there is a Church known as St pauls in Little Bray, and then the big church of the Holy Redeemer on main street.
These are both RC. Any others listed will have the CI after them, and there is a large CI church on the road from Shankill going into Little Bray.
Goingt on my own experience, Ive discovered that everyone was born, but no-one seems to have been married (not yet anyway ;D ;D)
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re the RootsIreland link - you need to be a member and signed in for that search link to work correctly.
Shane
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Hello, I recently found this post whilst researching Palermo. My GG Grandfather worked there as a Footman in the mid 1890's - George King. He lived at Bryan's Cottages at the time. I am interested in the area around Palermo as my father grew up in a house called 'Richmond Hill' in the 1940's - 1950's which was in the same area as Palermo. The house and land was also bought by a developer and is now a land estate (Fasseroe). The Mount Pleasant Villas which are a row of houses that were adjacent to 'Richmond Hill ' are still there. I would love to find out the history of this property but so far have not been able to find a thing. I have attached a photo of the house. My Grandfather George Peet and his wife Hilda inherited the house from Jack Gorham in the 1960's. Prior to that they lived with Jack and my father and his twin brother grew up in the house. Any information is appreciated. Regards
Karen Peet
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Hi trying to fill in some gaps on my dad's family tree looking for any info on a Bernard or Brendan Fitzpatrick living in Palermo bray in 1970,s? Any info would be great ;)
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For Karen Peet
If you enter Richmond Hill here in search the archives you will get several hits but you will probably have to go through them all to distinguish the Dublin ones.
If you enter George Peet in a seperate search you will see him mentioned in the will of Martha Campion.
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/genealogy1/genealogy-records/wills-testamentary-records/
Martha died aged 82 approx
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPNF-L29
1911
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Clondalkin/Ronanstown/41650/
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John Hanstock,Land Agent Dec 1939 Will,Palermo Bray.
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/search-the-archives/
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Samuel Harte,Gardiner in Palermo 1893
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-45-3-35-024