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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: wood_gnome on Monday 25 February 08 11:03 GMT (UK)

Title: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Monday 25 February 08 11:03 GMT (UK)
Hi, I've traced my family tree on my mother's side back to 1777 and on all the census returns say they were either Cutlers, Tinplate workers, Tinners, Hawkers or Pedlars. On my grandfather and grandmother's death certificates it says they were licensed hawkers my grandfather was called Harry Hunter and my grandmother was called Esther Ann Banks. Does this mean they were gypsies?
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Pollynation on Friday 29 February 08 11:11 GMT (UK)
Hi Wood_gnome

the answer is not neccasarily. A hawker was someone who went around, most likely with a cart, selling things. What we would call today a travelling salesman.

have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peddler

for tinplaters see http://www.tinplateworkers.co.uk/history.html

A tinner is someone who makes or repairs tin ware. He also might have gone round knocking at doors to ask if anything needed mending.

A list of occupations can be found here http://www.genproxy.co.uk/old_trades_occupations.htm

Your ancestors probably didnt earn alot, so therefore couldn't afford to open a "proper" shop.

Best wishes
Pauline
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Friday 29 February 08 12:09 GMT (UK)
Hi, Pollynation, My mother who is 80 said when she went to school everybody used to call them dirty gypos and spit on them. By that time they had stopped living in caravans and were living in a house she said her older brothers and sisters said they were gypsies and they used to travel around Yorkshire and Lancashire and Durham. I'm related to the Hull Cunninghams and the Leeds Crowther's. When my uncle Harry Hunter died in 1965 in Leeds loads of gypsies came to his funeral. So when my grandmother Esther Ann Hunter died in 1986 my aunty dare not put it in the Yorkshire Evening Post as she didn't want lots of gypsies turning up for her funeral as they did for my uncle Harry. She's a bit of a snob is my aunty.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Pollynation on Friday 29 February 08 12:30 GMT (UK)
Unfortunately gypsies have a bad reputation and always have had. I can understand your Aunt, especially if no one in her area knew about her past. She might have lost some friends.

You have done well to trace your family if they were gypsies. Most avoid getting their names on any paperwork as much as possible.

Apart from your Aunt, is there anyone else in the family who you could talk to? She obviously doesn't like her families past. Also do you know if there was a list of peoples names who attended your Uncle Harry's funeral? Maybe you could contact someone that way?

Best wishes
Pauline
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Friday 29 February 08 14:31 GMT (UK)
Hi, Pollynation, Like you say they don't like paperwork, I found out they were gypsies when I was 15. I started talking to a old man where I was working in Leeds this was in 1962 and he said I didn't know you were Esther Ann's grandson he said I used to live opposite her in Manchester I said she was born in Yorkshire he said her name is Esther Ann Banks her mother was called Ellen (Minnie) Banks on account of her size and they were all gypsies said they aren't he said take it from me lad there all gypsies. So when I got home from work I went to my grandma's house and said this bloke at work said your a gypsy and you were born in Manchester she said whats his name I said Harold Taylor she said tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about silly old fool. So I did he said take it from me lad there all gypsies even your mother. So when I started searching a couple of years ago the first thing I did was look up Esther Ann Banks and found everything the old lad had told me was true so I got my grandma's birth, marriage and death certificate and her death certificate was signed by my aunty.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: ankerdine on Friday 29 February 08 14:59 GMT (UK)
Hello
The word gypsy stood out at me. Some of my ancestors were "tinsmiths" so I was interested and very amused by your stories.

You should read Jessie Smith's Trilogy of stories of the travelling people in Scotland. Even though they are set in the 1900s some of the stories are great fun and an insight into the world of itinerants.

My great-aunt was snubbed by some relatives in the 1960s when she started hawking flowers from her back garden. I think she had started with a bit of dementia and thought she was back as a child. It was very sad 'cause she was a sweet old lady.

I know a Crowther in Leeds. Well, just you wait till we meet up with him again!

Have fun on this site, it's really great and everyone tries to help as much as they can.

Bye for now,

Judy
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: behindthefrogs on Friday 29 February 08 15:09 GMT (UK)
Hi Wood_gnome

the answer is not neccasarily. A hawker was someone who went around, most likely with a cart, selling things. What we would call today a travelling salesman.

Best wishes
Pauline

A travelling salesman is someone who represents a particular company and goes round shops and other companies taking bulk orders.  More usually called a representative in recent years.

A hawker is usually a door knocker selling individual items to householders.  Although in the past he would also have been allowed to sell in the streets possibly from a cart.

David
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Friday 29 February 08 15:14 GMT (UK)
Hi Judy, My Uncle Thomas Hunter married Ellen Crowther in Leeds in 1938 he died in 1955 but my cousin Tommy Hunter has a outside stall in Leeds market selling lino as far as i know it's still there according to one of my sister's. 
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Friday 29 February 08 15:34 GMT (UK)
Hi, When I was 8 or 9 years old I was staying at my grandma's house in Leeds I lived in Gloucester then. I was sat in my grandma's my mother was there and my great aunty Bella and a truck pulling a caravan pulled up outside and this woman came into my grandma's she had had gold half sovereigns hanging from her ears hanging round her neck and wrist there was kisses and hugs alround and it turned out she was my grandad's sister she was my great aunt Sarah Ann Hunter and they were on their way to Doncaster. When she had gone I said to my mother is she a gypsy and she said don't be silly. A bit later on I was earwiging and they were saying "I thought they would have parked at the back of the house so people wouldn't notice.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Pollynation on Friday 29 February 08 16:14 GMT (UK)
It is very strange how some people dont like being reminded of who and what they are. Gypsy or not, i think a person should be proud of their ancestors and where they came from. Mine were mostly coal miners and cotton labourers.

I believe there is a little Gypsy blood in my line too, although i have never been able to prove this, but i have a great photo of a family member. I also know a gypsy from the same area, with the same surname that mine came from ( South Yorkshire) but there is no link.

Good luck with your research
Best wishes
Pauline

 

 
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Friday 29 February 08 16:47 GMT (UK)
Hi Pollynation, I know lots of gypsies in Leeds. I know the Smiths, Cunninghams, James, Lees, Buxtons, Lowthers, Dohertys and Dorans.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Thursday 13 March 08 15:44 GMT (UK)
Update. On my Grandfather's and Grandmother's marriage certificate it says they were living at 11 Winker Green. I've since been in contact with someone who's mother lived at Winker Green at the same time and his mother said she remembers the Hunter family she said they lived in a caravan on Brick Field behind the houses at Winker Green she said they moved in to number 11 after their caravan caught fire and their child died in the fire. 
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: welsh lady on Thursday 13 March 08 16:28 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone my Great Aunt visited today a very young 94,and was interested in what was said on this thread,And wanted me to put in a little note of what she remembers when she was a child.Her Father was a Romani although her Mother was not.She was brought up in a caravan until she was 12.They travelled around looking for work.
It is not only Gaje(Non Romani People) who looked down on other" Gypsy "Familes.Her Father would never ever call himself a Gypsy he was a Roma from Romani descent and there for in his eyes not the same as the Irish Travellers or Travellers from anywhere else.However Tinker was also used as a deragatory word  back then to.Also Romani have their own language .She recalls her Father was a very proud man you never took charity ,you were always smartly turned out,Her hair and her sisters braided at all times, and the caravan was spotless and very ornate lots of brass and ornaments and  he would not Trust anyone outside the Romani people as they were not treated very nicely outside the camps that they use to stay at.However once her Father died and her Mother remarried she was never allowed to speak Romani or mention her roots to anyone.Hopefully times have changed.



Welsh Lady
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Friday 14 March 08 10:53 GMT (UK)
Hi Welsh Lady, in the sixties I was sat in my Grandmother's house and she was watching the local news and Tommy Doherty came on claiming to be King of the Gypsies, my Grandmother jumped out of her chair and started shouting at the TV saying your nothing but a bunch of Hedgehoppers and some other words that I couldn't understand it was like a foreign language to me, I said he can't hear you, she was in her seventies then. She died when she was 94.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Tuesday 18 March 08 20:37 GMT (UK)
darling you definately sound like one of us.i hope youll be proud of the fact.i dont know much about the traveeler up north but i know a man who deoes.he may even have details of some of your family.youd be surprised at the amount of paperwork i have managed to find on my gypsy family including wills and the cencus people usually caught up with them aswell.they also have birth marriage and death certs.so tracing them is not so difficult.try romanygenes blank page.leave a message on there.youd be surprised what turns up from that alone.in the meantime i will contact my friend and see if he has any info.i will get back to you.love cathayb
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Tuesday 18 March 08 20:39 GMT (UK)
p.s.i live on a romany site in somerset and we have dorans living here.they are lovely people.regards cathayb
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: An65 on Wednesday 19 March 08 21:04 GMT (UK)
My family were Romany Gypsies - altho they wouldnt use the latter word. My great Grandad settled in a brick house in 1906, he was a horse dealer,and as the horse trade died off he turned his hand to scrap merchanting but still kept a hold of the horse business. My late uncle used to help out in the stables. But today all that is left is what would be called a gorgio family. But in our veins run black blood, we look like Gray gypsies, and I am extremely proud of my heritage, and I dnt care what others say about that.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 19 March 08 21:21 GMT (UK)
my family wont use the g word either.personally i dont mind.but to the rest of the family we are romanies or travellers.i still live on a romany site.we are birches/taylors/hughes and probably alot more besides.there is class distinction even among the gypsies!!!i dont know.i wish everyone would get along.its nice to meet people proud of their ethnicity anyway.regards cathayb
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: honey-roma88 on Wednesday 19 March 08 21:49 GMT (UK)
My family were the same about using the word gypsy. I think as long as it isn't meant badly it is ok for people to use it. It certainly doesn't offend me (unless it is used to offend) and I use it every now and again if it makes more sense than to use rom or traveller but I use it sparingly.
I just remind myself of the etymology of the word and it's a sweet story, pretending to be Egyptian royalty so people would accept them.  :)
My family settled a long while ago but most carried on marrying other romanies who had settled in the same area. 
I hope I don't offend anyone when I use it but sometimes it is just easier. :-[

Oh and wood-gnome your family definitely sound like they are romani.  :)
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 19 March 08 22:16 GMT (UK)
i see you have orchards in your line.i wonder if any are related to us.were they from somerset/devon?
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: honey-roma88 on Wednesday 19 March 08 22:22 GMT (UK)
i see you have orchards in your line.i wonder if any are related to us.were they from somerset/devon?

My Orchard (Mary) came from Heytesbury, Wiltshire (I only know of one Orchard sadly). Heytesbury is right on the border with Somerset.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 19 March 08 22:30 GMT (UK)
i will have a look and see if shes in my tree.i have 719 names in the tree so it make take me awhile.i will get back on this link tomorrow.who are your travellers in somerset?
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 19 March 08 22:38 GMT (UK)
well i have a mary orchard from wiltshire in my tree.can you give me any dates or marriage or oerants and we will see if its the same one.regards cathayb
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: honey-roma88 on Thursday 20 March 08 14:24 GMT (UK)
well i have a mary orchard from wiltshire in my tree.can you give me any dates or marriage or oerants and we will see if its the same one.regards cathayb

She is quite far back...I will go check. She was born c.1700 in Heytesbury although I think she married in Fisherton Anger (can't find her husband for some reason ???). Her father might have been called John (soooo helpful I know ::)).
Thank you for looking. :)
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Friday 28 March 08 16:16 GMT (UK)
Hi, The child who died in the caravan fire was called Colin Waite Hunter I think he was named after my Grandfather Harry Hunter's Uncle Colin and his Grandmother's maiden name, but the only Dinah Waite I can find the same age comes from York and on the 1871 census it says she was born in Driffield or Sheffield then the 1881 census says Leeds can't find any marriage certificate "if there is one". On my my Grandmother's marriage certificate it says Harry Hunter was a widower, don't know who he was married to before but my Grandmother had her first child to him in 1912 and went on to have 7 more before they got married in 1933 and then 1 more after they were married. My GGrandmother was born in a tent she was called Isabella Stewart she was born in Ripon and her father was called George he was born in Preston in a tent and died in a tent in Addingham. He was married to a Constance Grey she was born in Otley. Can't find any info on her.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Friday 28 March 08 17:22 GMT (UK)
Hi Cathyayb, I took your advice and posted a message on Romanygenes just waiting to see if I get any replies. Thanks for the tip. Paul.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Saturday 29 March 08 14:29 GMT (UK)
okay i got a message from my friend robert dawson a recogniesed authority on gypsies and yes both your hunts and banks and hunters are gypsies.welcome to the family.he suggested you look for the hunts around gloucester aswell as there are two distinct clans of them.remeber gypsies travel so you could find them anywhere.i suggest you arrange a scavenger hunt on here with tephra.the people that partake in them are excellant researchers on gypsies and also that you join the rtfhs.its only 8 pounds a year and they will also all help.if i can do anymore let me know.cathayb.grays are travellers aswell.stewart proably shows a connection to scottish travellers.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Saturday 29 March 08 14:32 GMT (UK)
p.s.i forgot to say there is a strong line of gypsy hunts/hunters around derby and yorks.let me know how you get on.what is your surname now?
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Saturday 29 March 08 14:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Cathayb, I was born in North Yorkshire but lived in Leeds for about 30 years. When I was working in Leeds about 1985 I got talking to a lad who used to do a bit totting around where I worked and he used call in once week to see if I had any scrap for him, any way we got talking and it turned out his father knew my Mother and all her family. The week after he came into the shop and he said he'd been talking to his Grandfather and he said he wanted to know if my Father was a gypsy as my Father was born in Holbeck in Leeds and his Grandfather lived in Holbeck he said when he was a lad there was a big family of gypsies in Holbeck with the same surname as mine. I said as far as I know he's not a gypsy, but said if you stood my Mother and Father side by side and said to the man in the street which ones a gypsy they'd pick my Father straight away.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Thursday 03 April 08 14:06 BST (UK)
Hi, Update just found out my Father was a gypsy, emailed one of my sister's yesterday and she said that she'd told me 10 years ago that he was. She used to do child minding and thought she'd give fostering ago, so a social worker called round to see her. When she arrived she introduced herself as ***** Vickers and my sister said that's my maiden name so she said do they call your brothers and sisters and reeled off all our names and my Father's and Mother's and she said to my sister do you know your half gypsy, so my sister thought hey up she's going to have a dig at my Mother here, she then proceeds to tell my sister that my Father's family are all gypsies. My Father was the eldest of six and he was that ashamed of being a gypsy he joined the RAF soon as he was old enough. I remember when I was about 5 I asked him where his Mother and Father lived he said they were both dead and he didn't have any brothers or sisters we lived in Gloucester then on Innsworth RAF camp. The social worker turned out to be our cousin now we've got loads of Uncles, Aunts and cousins we never knew existed.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Thursday 03 April 08 14:56 BST (UK)
replying to you here here paul.yes i told you you sounded like gypsies.if your dad was a rom then we roms regard you as 100%gypsy and one of the family.glad you were in gloucester too.that will help me find a connection as our lot travelled around there alot.albeit now you live in a house we would call you a posh rat!!!but dont worry we love the posh rats the same as us van dwellers!!i hope you will be proud of your heritage.gypsies have had a very hard time of it for 100 hundred of years but they still survive and have fought in wars and held positions of authority.i think we can be proud of that!!may i suggest you look on romanygenes blank page?or have i already sais that?my and my husband have a few pages on there aswell.birch 1 and 2.and also joe and cathay romany exhibition is ours if you want to know what we and the older family look like.i will be in touch again soon by our own emails.love cathab
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Thursday 03 April 08 15:09 BST (UK)
Hi Cathayb, I had message from someone today his GGGGrandfather was my GGGGrandfather's brother and he was called John Taylor Vickers and his Daughter was called Mary Ann Taylor Vickers, Her mother was called Matilda  Bilton she was born in York and John Taylor Vickers was born in Holbeck, Leeds. I said to my wife last night I'm gutted, I've just found out my Father's a gypsy, she said why you always knew you were half gypsy I said that it was because my Father who is dead now kept it hidden for all those years and I never new  a thing I said I'm 60 years old and I've just found out when my Mother whose 81 now knew all the time and never said a word. My Brothers and Sisters are all proud to be Gypsies my Mother said my Father's family were that poverty stricken she thinks that he thought if people didn't know he was a gypsy he'd be better off. Paul.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: CatOne on Thursday 03 April 08 15:14 BST (UK)
Hi,

You say you don't have anything on Constance Grey?

is this them in 1871? Enumerated as "Steward"  Not sure :-\ -

1871 RG10/4275 Folio 58 Page 25
Allhallowgate, Ripon, Yorks

George Steward 35 Broom Maker Cumberland Penrith
Constance 26 Cambridge NK
Emily 6 Scholar Lancs Colne
John 3 Scholar Lancs Clitheroe
Charles 2 Yorks Otley
Isabella 2 mo Ripon

Marriage -
George Stewart March 1864 Skipton Vol 9a Page 58
Brides - Constance Grey or Mary Ann Moorhouse

The marriage cert should hopefully give her fathers name and occupation?

Regards
Cat  :)
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Thursday 03 April 08 15:28 BST (UK)
Hi CatOne, yes I got the info off someone who contacted me on Genes Reunited she was looking for Albert George Vickers born the same year as my Grandad but my Grandad was called George Albert Vickers and mine was born in Holbeck, Leeds but on her family tree she had George Stewart's Brother and she gave me the info on the Marriage Certificate so I could get a copy. But thank you for your time. Paul.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tiggi on Friday 04 April 08 23:05 BST (UK)
Can i just say a little about your topic
Romani or Gypsy who are we really ? There isn;t a country called Gypsyland or Romaniland ?
The name gypsy wasn;t our choosing but called to us by the gaji Why ? Because they didn;t know how else to describe the unusual sight of people so dark and mysterious and that lived originally in tents not caravans as most believe, that came much later, they wore bright vivid colors and spoke a strange tongue imagine how you would think if you saw them for the very first time how would you describe them ?
 The first were so dark almost black in color.
 People had never seen the like of before, as the centuries went by they married into many families and now we have blonde blue eyed etc but the true ones were dark and dark eyed exotic in looks.
 They were always thought to be un- christian having no belief in God Why ? again because if they didn;t comply with the people of the land they lived in that was seen as very wrong how could these people believe in any religion after the way they were treated  and what they saw done to people in the name of religion,that subject has caused more wars than anything else.

Way Way back before we can imagine there was in every country a tribe of people who chose to ROAM rather than be like everyone else and live in a house. this is where the word Romani derives .
From these tribes come all our families from across the world  they were unwelcomed where ever they went because they didn;t comply to the norm
Amazingly we will find more about them than your average person why because people were fascinated by them, they could live without all the comforts of a brick dwelling and survive so much is wrote of them more so than ordinary people it just means you have to look, not just census records try newspapers there is a huge amount written about gypises or romani through the years.
Unfortnately like any people there is good and bad amongst them and mostly you will only hear or be told the bad , but hey the gaji did far worst than the romani people ever did.

I will say this people even today consider us all the same but it is very annoying to be classed as one we are not , many have gone under the pretence of being a gypsy and they have no right to claim that, thats why lots of the old ones get annoyed or won;t speak about it.
In the old days the tribe was ruled by each family usually the elder member.
 Some families joined especially through marriage which again they believed strongly that they should keep the line true by only marrying into the families of the true blood.
They had their own rules and laws which they did use, as for Kings & Queens noo  that was done for the gaji benefit, it  helped to give them status not just among themselves as a sign of respect but the gaji liked the idea of royalty if it meant they could camp without being bothered great.
 They had a council of the higher ranking men etc and these ruled the tribes, but there was a leader who's word was always obeyed by all.
The women were the workers not the men although they did do work the woman did much more than just keep the family clean and fed,  it wasn;t for men to bring up children or do the chores never that wasn;t allowed.
 It was a great delight for a gypsy man to have a daughter it ment he would gain wealth when she married, a son would mean he had to pay not so good.
The one thing I admire about all the true Romani is the fact they could change their trade and make money where no other man could,  the sad part is that they lived by natures rules so much has been lost through the years about living off the land how many today would know if they walked along a real country lane what wood was good for things or which plants they could eat or use as medicines this is what we are losing as a hertiage.
I am very proud to admit my family were of these people and only wish I could have know them better sadly most have gone now like the true families it has all died.

Why did they move so much over the years  it wasn;t just they followed the seasons for work on the farms in the early days they were a cheap labour force with no outlay for living expenses and most families were welcomed by the farmers year a upon year, until machinery came, then it all changed they had to find other ways to make money which they did very well, but many caused trouble many were when brought to court called vagabonds and rogues this law goes back to before 1700s which gave the judge powers to imprison and even have them killed or transported, so what choice did they have but to move on quickly
Another thing I have found too I always thought they called children after their parents as a sign of respect , how wrong it was done for a much more crafty reason, many  had the same name so as to confuse the law if they were caught for what ever hard to prove if you have 6 called same name which one is guilty and as most gaji couldn;t tell them apart it made it even easier to decive
Anyway this is only my opinons hope it helps to clear up some things
 My favourite quote is from my own Great- Great Grandfather he said :
We are children of Nature it seems hard we cannot live on forever among the grasses and woods changing our tents from season to season to follow the summer sun.
.


Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Saturday 05 April 08 14:35 BST (UK)
Hi tiggi, I agree wholeheartedly with everthing you have said. Paul.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tiggi on Saturday 05 April 08 15:14 BST (UK)
Hi paul
thank you for your comment, I know it was a long post lol but I feel so strong about it.
I like you knew nothing of my rich hertiage until I was grown my family kept it hidden as best as they could, which when I questioned it, was told mostly for reasons that Gypsies were thought of as bad people, even today that is still very much the problem, but now there is more mixed tribes and like I said the true ones are really gone, so many stories were wrote about them being bad, unclean, uneducated, true most couldn;t read or write , but they survived on their wits,
I would say much better than your average gaji.
My Family went to usa looking for a better life some stayed some returned believe me it wasn;t any better over there for them in early years.
I do have some wonderful stories I have found about many tribes going over  to USA I would say this anyone looking for an ancestor in Uk if you can;t find them look in USa Canada or even prison records as much as you may not want to think it they did often get arrested for lots of things .
 I also know that in the early years many gypsies were actually used like the Slaves to work on plantations, so another area to check, also many were sent to Austrilia via transportion gain another area to search.
The most enjoyable thing I find is if you are lucky enough to find any Photos or drawings of your family that is a magic find, as they didn;t really keep detailed family albums as we may today
Anyway thnk you for listening to me
sandy
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: honey-roma88 on Saturday 05 April 08 15:40 BST (UK)
Hi paul
thank you for your comment, I know it was a long post lol but I feel so strong about it.
I like you knew nothing of my rich hertiage until I was grown my family kept it hidden as best as they could, which when I questioned it, was told mostly for reasons that Gypsies were thought of as bad people, even today that is still very much the problem, but now there is more mixed tribes and like I said the true ones are really gone, so many stories were wrote about them being bad, unclean, uneducated, true most couldn;t read or write , but they survived on their wits,
I would say much better than your average gaji.
My Family went to usa looking for a better life some stayed some returned believe me it wasn;t any better over there for them in early years.
I do have some wonderful stories I have found about many tribes going over  to USA I would say this anyone looking for an ancestor in Uk if you can;t find them look in USa Canada or even prison records as much as you may not want to think it they did often get arrested for lots of things .
 I also know that in the early years many gypsies were actually used like the Slaves to work on plantations, so another area to check, also many were sent to Austrilia via transportion gain another area to search.
The most enjoyable thing I find is if you are lucky enough to find any Photos or drawings of your family that is a magic find, as they didn;t really keep detailed family albums as we may today
Anyway thnk you for listening to me
sandy


I agree.

As for photos I was once contacted by someone who was related to me via my Munday Romani line and said his aunt had had photos of the family in their caravan on her wall when he was small but sadly he had no idea what had happened to them.  :( I would have loved to have seen those photos, I only have photos of my Romani family once they settled. Even once they had settled they carried on marrying within the blood as much as possible (although not always of course).
My family were the same about keeping the fact they were Romani quiet. In one of my half-breed g grandmothers she was always told that her mother's dark looks were the result of an affair with the Italian lodger. Both her parents were about half-Romani/traveller (her father was 1/2 Romani, 1/2 Jewish - my avatar - and her mother was 1/2 Romani, 1/2 English/Romani).
They kept a wheel in the garden but her father who was previously a rag & bone man was made by his wife (who was more Romani than him) to stop and become a labourer (I only found this out the other day) which she considered more respectable but as soon as she died he got his barrow out.
My family are proud of their roots now, I would hate for my ancestors to think I was ever ashamed of who they were.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tiggi on Saturday 05 April 08 17:57 BST (UK)
Hi
I know of many families including my own relations, that when eventually the old ones have died all their photos anything to do with them ever being  a Romani was destroyed. So sad and only excuse is because they married into gaji money.
I asked once, why to a family would they did this and was told, Its cos we don;t want people to know about us, they look down on us if they think we are gypsies,  we live in a house now like the gaji and if they knew they would treat us different , this was from a person who had married into a gypsy family, being a gaji they wanted to hide any knowledge of their ancestors roots, so sad , destroyed wonderful photos of wagons, true blood family imagines and all because they felt ashamed to admit their roots .
 This to me is such a waste, the photos especially cannot be replaced, they arent's just a imagine of people that were in your family but a historical memory of how they lived .
 I have  some wonderful collections of my own family now, it was the most magical moment to see members of my family long gone but wow the strong  looks were so easy to see in the generations today even my own children.
 I have told  my own children if they don't wish to know ( never happen lol) I have said to give it to a museum, let be found for someone who does want to know and that would be my advice to anyone don't destroy them give it away you don;t even have to say who you are, but please don;t destroy  those memories.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: honey-roma88 on Saturday 05 April 08 18:10 BST (UK)
tiggi - I'm just the same, I have scanned every photo I own of my family just in case anything happens to the original. Once my grandmother dies the ancestor's photos are all I wish to inherit.
I only have one photo I think when they are still travelling, it used to be my avatar. It was of my ggg grandmother just before her marriage when she was just 14/15.  :)
I hope my family never destroyed photos of themselves out of shame but of course I will never know. :(
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: nashua on Sunday 06 April 08 10:22 BST (UK)
Hi Tiggi & Honey-Roma. I see you both have Bucklands in your tree. I have an Elizabeth Emily Buckland born around 1877 who is a mystery to me and wondered if you had any knowledge of this family.
She married Philip Albert Jones in 1896 in Bristol, naming her father as John, a hawker. I have been unable to trace a birth registration for her. She is in the 1901 census in Bristol living with her 2 children, but no husband. Later that year both her and her husband were charged with neglect & the children put in a  workhouse
In 1901 there was a John age 68 & Fanny Buckland age 63 living next to Elizabeth, with adult children Henry, Joshua & Rose all saying born Bristol, I have traced this family back to 1871 and they had other children Percy, Joseph, Jenty, Minnie, Adolphus,Sarah, Cinderella, Circender, Emmily, Motte, Walter, William. The birth place of John is given most years as Oxford, Berkshire. Some years they were in caravans and some in houses but always in Bristol.

Their is no mention of Elizabeth Emily, the nearest in age would be Sarah, which has confused me.

I would really appreciate your advices if you have any knowledge of this family

Nashua
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Sunday 06 April 08 11:36 BST (UK)
have you tried lokking in dorset and hampshire.i have bucklands in bristol that travelled these two areas aswell.cathayb
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tiggi on Sunday 06 April 08 12:56 BST (UK)
Hi Nashua
Like most families there are lots of Branches,I have taken note of what you have posted,  and will have alook for them My own Bucklands came from  Oxfordshire, but also at times mentioned Bristol, if you know Bristol Gloucester Road was well known for Gypsies, I know my familty did go to USA and settled there some did return to UK , but then settled in Devon cornwall area.
Some names do pop out at me like Jenty ( this was Gentilla orginally the church would not recgonise it as a name for obvious reasons so it got changed can be spelt Jenty Genty or even Jennie)
Adolphus was another, I have had somesome contact me about a Nelson Buckland who came from Bristol think family still there today, it maybe relations to  your family, i know that someone again has mentioned 2 brothers Adolphus & John ( sounds like your names) that went into Fair rides.  Motte was also used by Williams family as name .
Its also possible your family came from a Plato Buckland known to travel and marry into Williams & Fletchers some of children's names you mentioned sound like them,  he was from Buckinghamshire area lots of Bucklands related to him.
Point of interest :
The families didn;t always live in Caravans usually only when they traveled most were senisble and bought property
which would be their winter homes and also an investment
also did you know that families often used alias some used parents grandparents surnames.

Stangely I do have a Census when my own family are traveling with a family : I would guess that Mary Howard was married to a Jones for her daughter to use the name:

1881 Census Tavistock Cornwall Caravans Petericks Ground

Mary Howard born 1824 aged 57 Head Tavistock ( fruit seller & coster)

Jane Jones/Dann born 1846 aged 35 daughter Tavistock

Emily Dann born 1868 aged 13 grand-daughter Tavistock

William Thomas Dann born 1871 aged 10 grand-son Tavistock

Jane Jones/Dann husband is actually in 1st foot Reg Devonshire at this time


I will look for you see what I can find I would also suggest 2 things try doing a Scavenger hunt on here ask about it to Tephra its a really good way of finding info
alos go look at romanygenes site its has lots of info there about many families and again you could post a message might bring you some luck
happy hunting Nashua and what a lovely name
sandy
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: nashua on Sunday 06 April 08 13:33 BST (UK)
Hi Cathayb & Sandy

Thank you both for your messagesand suggestions. I haven't yet looked around Dorset or Hampshire. This family from Oxford, seem to have a link as they were living next door to my Elizabeth, so I have been concentrating on them.

Sandy - I will email you as requested.

Thanks again

Nashua
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tiggi on Sunday 06 April 08 13:42 BST (UK)
Hi Nashua
Bristol came under the county of Gloucestershire before being known as in county of Somerset
I think area you need to look at is St Philip & St Jacob Bristol
 and don;t be put off if their trade is down other than traveler they did do manual work as well and I am sure your family contects to Williams family along the way which would ten bring you back to Plato Buckland who married into that family.

found a few families :all in this area above
1891 Census RG12 1986-67-p32 Bristol Gloucestershire
5 Pintagon Place
Adolphus Buckland b 1866 Bristol  B-In-Law labour
Rosinia Buckland    b 1882 Bristol sister -in -law
George Williams     b 1863 Filkins Oxfordshire  Labour
Jentinia Williams    b 1864 Bristol  ( would say sister of Adolphus
Joshua Williams    b 1889 Bristol

1891 Census  Alderman Stevens an alms house for the poor Bristol Gloucestershire RG12-1960-p3
C Buckland b 1817 Bristol Single almswoman
widowed ( could be called cinderella ?)

1891 Bristol Gloucestershire Trinity almshouse Rg12-1960-7-p8
Emma Buckland b 1827 Bristol Inmate Single aged 64
Anna Jones       b 1827 Alcester Warwickshire
hannah Jones   b 1845 Spaxton somerset
Henry jones      b 1849 Bristol ( husband)
Louise Jones    b 1882 Bristol

If this helps let me know or if you want me to look further I have John & Fanny too in same area as above so has to be a connection with them somewhere don;t you think ? sandy
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Sunday 06 April 08 15:13 BST (UK)
Hi tiggi, One of my sisters has got lots of photographs that use to belong to my Grandmother Esther Ann, my Mother took them all from my Grandmother's house when she went to live in a old peoples home just before she died. Then my Mother was moving so she gave them to my sister for safe keeping. My sister asked me to have a look at them as I am the eldest to see if I recognized anyone but I didn't recognize anyone, I said all of these photos must go back years. Paul.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tiggi on Sunday 06 April 08 15:25 BST (UK)
Hi
well that sounds wonderful  Paul if you want too you could post them on romanygenes, it might jog someone's memory and help you find out who they are if you wish too, Sue is very lovely lady and I can assure too they will not be able to reprint from her site they would always belong to you, but that has to be your choice, if you do decide to put them on internet please be careful lots of sites you can copy them off and then they become public property it depends how you feel about sharing them  only wish i could say its my family but lol not to be I am thrilled for you its makes all the difference to see the faces
Best wishes sandy
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Sunday 06 April 08 15:34 BST (UK)
Hi tiggi, If I put them on the web my Aunty would sue me for ever penny  have. I wouldn't dream of putting them on the net until my Mother, Aunts and Uncle have died because they know who they all are, but won't tell any of us, that is why my sister won't give them back to my Mother. As far as my sister's concerned they've kept us in the dark long enough. Paul.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tiggi on Sunday 06 April 08 15:53 BST (UK)
Hi Paul Oh that is so sad I really feel for you, I do understand completely about not wanting to upset your family members , but then you and your sister don;t sound like you both have not been treated fairly either.
well you know what they say hun you can chose your friends but not your family.
I only hope you can get names sorted before its too late to know maybe you will find a way hope so
best regards sandy
 
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Trinny on Monday 21 April 08 12:37 BST (UK)
Hi Cathayb.
So how to define "one of us"?
The only side of my family I've really ever known (or known about) & am right proud of, is the travelling side (my mum's). Ok, Grandma became a house dweller & set the new standard, but thankfully circumstances have forced me into the process of 'selling up', so I've put a deposit down on a tad nice trailer & look forward to moving in ASAP.
Grandma would get right upperty if anyone called her a Gypsy, although was proud of her roots & we remained a close knit family. She came from circus & showman stock, so why not Gypsy?
I wonder if it was simply because the term was used to be derisory. Any ideas on the matter please? ???
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Monday 21 April 08 12:57 BST (UK)
the romanys would call you a posh rat meaning you are of mixed perantage.both gaujo and gypsy.nothing of course to be ashamed of.and you will be loved by the roms of course.another word is didikai but thats not considered so polite.alot of roms deny their heritage because i think of the derogortory remarks they get and bad press.enjoy your romany life in your new chalet.all the very best to you.love cathayb.i myself am jewish/rom but my husband is 100% rom.i wonder what they call me?
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Trinny on Monday 21 April 08 14:02 BST (UK)
Thanks.
But which side is the Gypsy side? The showmen seem to be such a big melting pot. Whilst my forefathers had rides they were also hawkers. I have wondered if it was the formation of the Showmans Guild or its forerunner (name forgotten), which generally had them distancing themselves. Can see the link with the circus (I think) re horses.
As for being a mongrel, tell me something new, I'm English through & through whatever that might be ;). My sisters and I all have Jewish names, Ruth, Rachel & Rebecca, AKA the three R's! Mum was an infant teacher, but the link was most likely accidental.   
Thanks too for your well wishes. Sad isn't it though (no pleasing some folks), I haven't moved into my trailer yet & already thinking if I might be able to build me something akin to the dwellings used by the Tinkers Bubble Project...... a choice of homes.... utter luxury!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Monday 21 April 08 14:35 BST (UK)
thing is there are many types of gypsies.all with their own distinct cultures.romany gypsies and irish gypsies(tinkers)are an ethnic group in this country.circus gypsies,barge gypsies and new age gypsies are not an ethnic group.obviously there has been intermarriage between the groups and with gaujos.all one big melting pot really.to live on a romany site as we do my husband had to prove by ancestry that he was rom but then they put gaujos and irish on here anyway.we dont mind,we love the human race in all its complexities.my husband and i love the freedom that our gypsy life gives us and would not be house dwellers for the world but each to his own.love cathayb
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Trinny on Monday 21 April 08 17:57 BST (UK)
Thank you. Guess that's what I'd concluded, so good to hear someone else express it. I quite understand about not wanting to be house dwellers and am so looking forward to being freed from bricks & mortar. Have hankered it for eons. As you say each to his own. Big hug.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: BagpussBee on Thursday 24 April 08 13:28 BST (UK)
Hi Cathayb - or any anyone else who can help!!!

I have Stevens in my family tree. Would love to know if there are any connections in the present romani community?? One branch of the family (mine) were very often described as 'gypsy tinkers' 'gyspy tinker's daughter' and had occupations such as knife grinder, hawker etc and travelled all over the south but the other side of the family were very much settled in Chedworth, Gloucestershire as agricultural labourers. But this is going back to the mid 1800s.

I know that in 1901 some of my ggg aunts (Evans) and uncles were living in tents in Wedmore, Somerset.

Thanks!
Bee


Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Monday 28 April 08 20:05 BST (UK)
yers,there were quite a few gypsies in wedmore somerset.a few of my family stopped there.there are a lot of stevans in the gypsy fraternity so you may well have gypsy connections.let us have a few more details.names and dates if poss and i will have a look in my records for you.love cathayb
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tmm1975 on Tuesday 17 June 08 10:04 BST (UK)
Hi Hony Roma
I noticed that in your preferences you have mentioned the mundays.  I do not know whether my mundays were romany gypsy or not, but I have a feeling that this may have been the case due to the fact that along with many romany they came to australia in 1842 on the Simon Taylor.  My Munday line starts with Geoffrey Munday and Anne Nichael in about 1700 in Aston Rowan Oxforshire.  But the Couple to come to OZ were William Munday and Anne Mason.  Are we on the same page?
Tanya
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Tuesday 17 June 08 12:04 BST (UK)
ah found you tanya!!!i will look into that for you re the mundays.i am trying to get back to research and forget the other business if you know what i mean.good to see you on passing through aswell.try  romanygenes blank page aswell.sue day is brilliant at helping.cathayb
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tmm1975 on Tuesday 17 June 08 12:18 BST (UK)
Hi Cathay,  Glad to see that you found me.  Thank you and will also go on the Romany Genes Page.  Have been sussing out all the sites you have told me about this avo and yes have forgotten about that nasty woman.  Love Tanya
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Tuesday 17 June 08 18:13 BST (UK)
just noticed what you said about the mundays.i had not notced them before.i have nt any of them in my tree but i will have a look and see if i can find anything about them for you but honey roma will properly be your best help as they are in her family.love cathayb
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Wednesday 18 June 08 12:09 BST (UK)
Hi, Heres some interesting names KEZEN HAPPUCH HUNTER, SHEBANIAH HUNTER, ZADEK HUNTER and Epaphroditus Hunter. All born in the 1760s in a place called Aberford about 10 miles outside Leeds.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 18 June 08 12:30 BST (UK)
what lovely names.zadok is a biblical name and biblical names are popular amonst roms but i have never heard of the others.how interesting.your really going back in time with  your family now arent you.well done and so quick,it took me ages to get to grips with the 1700s!!!keep posting,very interesting.regards cathayb
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Wednesday 18 June 08 12:35 BST (UK)
Hi Cathayb, here's another one just found same family,  MAHERSHALALHASHBAZ Hunter. There Father was called William and there Mother was called KERENHAPUCH HUNTER. Paul.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 18 June 08 12:43 BST (UK)
my word.what a mouthful!are they english born and bred do you think?are they members of your family?i wonder what happened when their mother called them for lunch!do you think she shortened it to baz and puch?we call one of our daughters puchy,but her real name is jennina.regards cathayb
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: wood_gnome on Wednesday 18 June 08 12:57 BST (UK)
Hi Cathayb, I don't know if there members of our family, it's just that there all born in the same area as my lot. My Mother always say's were all part of the Hunter Clan. My Aunty Helen Hunter she got married in 1946 on the marriage register it says Helen Ford Hunter my Grandad was a widower when he married my Grandma, and on one of my cousin's birth in the registry it say's her Mother's maiden name is Helen Ford Hunter. I was wondering if my Aunty was to Harry Hunter's first wife. Paul.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Toni Hassett on Monday 06 July 09 10:38 BST (UK)
My Name is Toni Hassett and I have an interest in Mary Howard.
I suspect a gypsy connection in my our genetic heretige, I had an uncle Jim Howard.
What do you Know of Mary's ancestors/family?
How do i find out more?
 :) :)

Hi Nashua
Like most families there are lots of Branches,I have taken note of what you have posted,  and will have alook for them My own Bucklands came from  Oxfordshire, but also at times mentioned Bristol, if you know Bristol Gloucester Road was well known for Gypsies, I know my familty did go to USA and settled there some did return to UK , but then settled in Devon cornwall area.
Some names do pop out at me like Jenty ( this was Gentilla orginally the church would not recgonise it as a name for obvious reasons so it got changed can be spelt Jenty Genty or even Jennie)
Adolphus was another, I have had somesome contact me about a Nelson Buckland who came from Bristol think family still there today, it maybe relations to  your family, i know that someone again has mentioned 2 brothers Adolphus & John ( sounds like your names) that went into Fair rides.  Motte was also used by Williams family as name .
Its also possible your family came from a Plato Buckland known to travel and marry into Williams & Fletchers some of children's names you mentioned sound like them,  he was from Buckinghamshire area lots of Bucklands related to him.
Point of interest :
The families didn;t always live in Caravans usually only when they traveled most were senisble and bought property
which would be their winter homes and also an investment
also did you know that families often used alias some used parents grandparents surnames.

Stangely I do have a Census when my own family are traveling with a family : I would guess that Mary Howard was married to a Jones for her daughter to use the name:

1881 Census Tavistock Cornwall Caravans Petericks Ground

Mary Howard born 1824 aged 57 Head Tavistock ( fruit seller & coster)

Jane Jones/Dann born 1846 aged 35 daughter Tavistock

Emily Dann born 1868 aged 13 grand-daughter Tavistock

William Thomas Dann born 1871 aged 10 grand-son Tavistock

Jane Jones/Dann husband is actually in 1st foot Reg Devonshire at this time


I will look for you see what I can find I would also suggest 2 things try doing a Scavenger hunt on here ask about it to Tephra its a really good way of finding info
alos go look at romanygenes site its has lots of info there about many families and again you could post a message might bring you some luck
happy hunting Nashua and what a lovely name
sandy
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tiggi on Monday 06 July 09 23:23 BST (UK)
Hi
 Got your post, I don't really know more than I have already  said regarding that Census and they were camped with members of my family, I do not know if they were kin ,maybe just camped together for safety ?

I will when I have time try and look up some-more about family, but if you want to do that your self you can try looking in later Census for family, i will try and do it soon ,but not this week as I have visitors
Hope I can find out something for you
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Family Therese on Sunday 02 August 09 10:21 BST (UK)
I see several of you are interested in the name MUNDAY/MONDAY/MUNDY.

I have been looking for a while for the origins of Charlotte MUNDAY/MONDAY c1798, apparently "born in Avoncliff" (between Bradford on Avon, Wilts and Bath, Somerset) according to the 1851-71 censuses, but I haven't been able to find any record of her anywhere prior to her marriage in 1826 to Isaac GRAY c1805, stone miner, born Avoncliff, Wilts.

I know there were Munday/Mondays living in Westwood and Limpley Stoke, Wilts in the 1700s and in Freshford and elsewhere just over the Somerset border in the late 1700s and 1800s.

Have any of you ever come across Munday Romany families being in that area at that time - or any Charlotte (or Chalotte) Munday c1798, born somewhere that makes sense in this context?

If her family were moving around, that might be one explanation of why I can't find her!

(There is also some reference to West Lavington, Wilts in one record about her on LDS/IGI but I am almost certain that's one of LDS/IGI's mistakes.)

I'd be very grateful for any help - even if the answer's "no".   :)

Thanks!

Therese.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Debulah on Sunday 09 August 09 19:13 BST (UK)
Hi all,
just catching up with the Romany side of my family, buried for the last 3 generations, though my great grandfather is listed as a 'horse dealer assisting his father' on the 1911 census. I have recently discovered an identity and culture I never knew I belonged to, and am immensely proud of my fathers roots. I am a 'Gray' by decent, related to both Smiths and Elliotts. I believe in a world where culture, difference and identity are being erradicated, sucked up or just plain PC'd out of existence, we should hang on desparately to those things that make us different, and celebrate them. I hope one day my children will be as proud of their history as I am.
Debulah
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: nosreap on Saturday 15 August 09 16:28 BST (UK)
Does anyone know of Gypsies being at Durham Miners Big Meeting during 1880s.
My Great Grandfather met My Great Grandmother here and they were married Gypsy fashion by Jumping the Broom? I have no official marriage cert, so dont have her maiden name.  My Great Grandad was John Pearson and Great Grandmas name was Annie and she was born in Newcastle.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: mikizz on Tuesday 30 November 10 22:05 GMT (UK)
Hi Pollynation, I know lots of gypsies in Leeds. I know the Smiths, Cunninghams, James, Lees, Buxtons, Lowthers, Dohertys and Dorans.
[/quotehi i am cunningham from leeds also know Hunters. would like to get in touch]
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: mikizz on Tuesday 30 November 10 22:07 GMT (UK)
hi i am Cunningham from Leeds but have family in Hull.Also know Hunters would like to get in touch .
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Redroger on Wednesday 01 December 10 12:59 GMT (UK)
My tree contains a Nahuabaduyyale Ayres from Cambridgeshire in the 19th century.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Kaypck on Tuesday 12 June 12 12:35 BST (UK)
My nan referred to herself as Romany.  She referred to everyone else who called themselves gypsies as didicoys.  Woe betide those who turned up on her doorstep to sell pegs, heather etc. and try and tell her fortune.  She told me she was a Lee, and proud of it, although when I came to do the family tree i found Daisy, Cox, Cooper and Hierons before I got back to the Lees.
My father used to speak of staying on the Romany site and making wax flowers.  My nan also picked hops in Kent.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Redroger on Thursday 14 June 12 20:29 BST (UK)
My understanding subject to more learned correction is that a diddicoi is a person of half Romany blood.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Kaypck on Wednesday 20 June 12 11:11 BST (UK)
You could be right although that presents another puzzle.  My nan's father was Frederick Callaghan, from Irish descent.  I had thought that the Irish are travellers and not Romany.  If that is the case it would make her half Romany, but she was adamant that she was Romany through and through.  Can anybody shed any light on this.  Do Irish people consider themselves Romany or is it only the female side that counts?
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Mike in Cumbria on Wednesday 20 June 12 11:43 BST (UK)
It's not at all simple!

This is an interesting article.

http://www.historytoday.com/becky-taylor/britains-gypsy-travellers-people-outside
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cornishharbour on Sunday 15 July 12 14:29 BST (UK)
I've just read this thread as I wonder whether my Browning ancestors from Kent were travellers. He was a Higgler, which I think is an itinerate hawker.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Redroger on Sunday 15 July 12 15:43 BST (UK)
I have a relative in Lincolnshire who was described as a higgler. In that county a higgler was a travelling hired ploughman.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: behindthefrogs on Sunday 15 July 12 15:49 BST (UK)
A higgler had various meanings:

[1]A person who haggles or bargains. An itinerant peddler or dealer, similar to a cadger.
[2] A contract farm worker who owned his own horses and plough etc. and went from farm to farm  (South Lincolnshire)
[3] A wholesale purchaser of eggs poultry and dairy produce
[4] It was also used to mean a hangman or a breaker of stones
[5] In Covent Garden market: A dealer who buys his supplies of fruit with a view to selling what he buys at a profit to any buyer, either on that market or on any other; to wholesalers or to retailers.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cornishharbour on Sunday 15 July 12 15:51 BST (UK)
Thank you both so much for your responses - interesting and more to think about!
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: lynew on Friday 24 August 12 08:08 BST (UK)
Hi, it's been very interesting reading your stories here.  I am apparently from a Romani background, my great grandmother was known as Maude of the caravan tribe, her maiden name was Woods, and she lived in the West Country, finally coming to rest in Gwent when she married a Tanswell.  My Grandmother, her elder sister and brothers all had high cheek bones, olive complexions and dark hair.   I have been looking into the family history a little but haven't got very far.  I would be very interested to hear from anyone who knew of the Woods family (Maude Woods).  I believe she was born in Wiltshire or Somerset.  I'll have to check on that.

The female line of the family have all got a 'gift' apparently, my Grandmother & Aunt were quite involved in various methods of fortune telling & healing, my grandmother was always telling me some natural herb or thing to use as a cure, and my aunt looked the part, being olive complexioned, high cheek boned and loved wearing her gold jewellery and brightly coloured clothing.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: rhspeedway on Sunday 18 November 12 21:10 GMT (UK)
hi nashua i am new on here so have just seen your old post, my name is richard hughes, and cinderella buckland was my great grand mother, she had 15 children 13 lived, thomas rose was one of her sons and he was my grandfather he lived in chippenham wiltshire, and they were gypsies.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: 1944grandad on Sunday 20 January 13 23:31 GMT (UK)
Hi there, i was wondering if anyone could help me on this, it has always been told that we have romany gypsy in our family on my great nans side, her name was elizabeth tooth and was said she was born in a gypsy caravan in warwickshire 1909, she has olive toned skin dark black hair and light blue eyes and wore alot of gold jewlery, she and her husband william edward banford my great grandad worked as the rag and bone and she also done basket weaving and selling toffee apples and her children my grandad and his brothers and sisters used to sell fire wood (kindle) in the streets, her father was william tooth who was a bricklayers labourer i think and her mother was elizabeth REA from worcestershire bromsgrove, they were a family of nail makers the Reas and the Banners on that side are also kimberley, Randle, Hughes, Brighton,, Wheeler, Troth, Crump, burford, and on her fathers side which is william tooths is the Nicholls family, Guest, Doughty, Newey, Blackham, Payne, Bailey, Broughton, Price, Ward, Etchells all these are people who are married in the family but my great nan being a tooth is said there is gypsy on that side of the family, i met only new years eve a family member of the tooth side who also carries the name tooth, he was telling us how he used to sleep under the caravan with his grandad when he was young, elizabeth rea mother was anne kimberley and her father was Thomas rea both from worcester and worked as nail makers up until 1911 he was a lodging house keeper and she was a boarding house keeper, not sure what these are, they lived in mill fields in worcestershire bromsgrove also sidemoor, cuckolds corner, the pleck, sidemoor allotments etc, any help would be appreciated thank you, im also a new member :-)
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: 1944grandad on Sunday 20 January 13 23:39 GMT (UK)
it was said when my great nan was young her and her family members went to live in a proper house and her mom and nan took in washing for money, and something that has never been looked up or how true it is i dont know but there was a fight in the street between the local men and my great nans mom elizabeth rea got in to brake it up and it was said she got injured with a bottle i think during the break up and was said it was the cause of her death thats whats always been told dont know how true it is.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Mike in Cumbria on Monday 21 January 13 08:56 GMT (UK)
Hello

I can't help with your request but I can say welcome to Rootschat and I'm sure you will gets lots of useful help with your very interesting-sounding family.

regards

Mike
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Redroger on Monday 21 January 13 10:47 GMT (UK)
If you are within range of the Worcestershire Record Office then I would expect them to have local newspapers with a report on the fight and her death. There may also have been charges for assault, or even murder brought as a result of the fight, these will also be reported in the local newspapers. I suggest that if you are within travelling distance go to the record office and see.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tiggi on Monday 21 January 13 13:36 GMT (UK)
it was said when my great nan was young her and her family members went to live in a proper house and her mom and nan took in washing for money, and something that has never been looked up or how true it is i dont know but there was a fight in the street between the local men and my great nans mom elizabeth rea got in to brake it up and it was said she got injured with a bottle i think during the break up and was said it was the cause of her death thats whats always been told dont know how true it is.





 Try to get her death certificate that should give you a clue to cause of death.. it usually is written on it cause of death
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tiggi on Monday 21 January 13 14:12 GMT (UK)
Hi there, i was wondering if anyone could help me on this, it has always been told that we have romany gypsy in our family on my great nans side, her name was elizabeth tooth and was said she was born in a gypsy caravan in warwickshire 1909, she has olive toned skin dark black hair and light blue eyes and wore alot of gold jewlery, she and her husband william edward banford my great grandad worked as the rag and bone and she also done basket weaving and selling toffee apples and her children my grandad and his brothers and sisters used to sell fire wood (kindle) in the streets, her father was william tooth who was a bricklayers labourer i think and her mother was elizabeth REA from worcestershire bromsgrove, they were a family of nail makers the Reas and the Banners on that side are also kimberley, Randle, Hughes, Brighton,, Wheeler, Troth, Crump, burford, and on her fathers side which is william tooths is the Nicholls family, Guest, Doughty, Newey, Blackham, Payne, Bailey, Broughton, Price, Ward, Etchells all these are people who are married in the family but my great nan being a tooth is said there is gypsy on that side of the family, i met only new years eve a family member of the tooth side who also carries the name tooth, he was telling us how he used to sleep under the caravan with his grandad when he was young, elizabeth rea mother was anne kimberley and her father was Thomas rea both from worcester and worked as nail makers up until 1911 he was a lodging house keeper and she was a boarding house keeper, not sure what these are, they lived in mill fields in worcestershire bromsgrove also sidemoor, cuckolds corner, the pleck, sidemoor allotments etc, any help would be appreciated thank you, im also a new member :-)

My suggestion would be to get vital certificates to establish your family connections

Elizabeth Tooth birth 1909 Jan/Feb/Mar Birmingham Warwickshire Jan/Feb/Mar 6d 71

Elizabeth Tooth married 1938 Birmingham Warwickshire Edward  E Banford Jan/Feb/Mar 6d 649

1911 family living at 1 House Bk 35 Wilton St Birmingham ( Tooth)

There seems to be conflict with her death as she is alive in 1911 listed in above household ?
Yet a death is registered for b 1873  -died 1907 Birmingham Warwickshire ?
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Murrell on Tuesday 10 December 13 15:58 GMT (UK)
Wow fantastic thread. Just as a matter of interest wood-gnome and excuse me if you already know, in the 50's and 60's there were two camp sites in Holbeck. One on Domestic Street where the folk lived they paid for their pitch,  there  were lots of people living there. There was a man who lived with his mother his name was Humorist Smith he collect scrap metal each day, his mum had an amusement arcade at Whitby and each summer she would go to live there for the season. Another family who lived there were called Scargel but they got the chance to live in a rented house and moved.
The other caravan site was over the road from the Holbeck washhouse, families there was Smith there son Paul was not allowed to talk to us openly his father didnt trust us. Dempsey Pickels was lovely and the story went that his mum found him and brought him up as her own, He too was heavily protected from us kids his mother would walk him too and from school. Maybe Leeds archives maybe able to give you further info. Good Luck with your searches  :) Ps other family name that have come to mind are Kingdoms, Paynes, Ellam.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: espanol on Thursday 13 February 14 21:36 GMT (UK)
Hi, it's been very interesting reading your stories here.  I am apparently from a Romani background, my great grandmother was known as Maude of the caravan tribe, her maiden name was Woods, and she lived in the West Country, finally coming to rest in Gwent when she married a Tanswell.  My Grandmother, her elder sister and brothers all had high cheek bones, olive complexions and dark hair.   I have been looking into the family history a little but haven't got very far.  I would be very interested to hear from anyone who knew of the Woods family (Maude Woods).  I believe she was born in Wiltshire or Somerset.  I'll have to check on that.

The female line of the family have all got a 'gift' apparently, my Grandmother & Aunt were quite involved in various methods of fortune telling & healing, my grandmother was always telling me some natural herb or thing to use as a cure, and my aunt looked the part, being olive complexioned, high cheek boned and loved wearing her gold jewellery and brightly coloured clothing.
hi there is a good book called the gipsy scholar and its all about the woods family
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: ssprules on Wednesday 11 June 14 22:18 BST (UK)
Hi Tiggi & Honey-Roma. I see you both have Bucklands in your tree. I have an Elizabeth Emily Buckland born around 1877 who is a mystery to me and wondered if you had any knowledge of this family.
She married Philip Albert Jones in 1896 in Bristol, naming her father as John, a hawker. I have been unable to trace a birth registration for her. She is in the 1901 census in Bristol living with her 2 children, but no husband. Later that year both her and her husband were charged with neglect & the children put in a  workhouse
In 1901 there was a John age 68 & Fanny Buckland age 63 living next to Elizabeth, with adult children Henry, Joshua & Rose all saying born Bristol, I have traced this family back to 1871 and they had other children Percy, Joseph, Jenty, Minnie, Adolphus,Sarah, Cinderella, Circender, Emmily, Motte, Walter, William. The birth place of John is given most years as Oxford, Berkshire. Some years they were in caravans and some in houses but always in Bristol.

Their is no mention of Elizabeth Emily, the nearest in age would be Sarah, which has confused me.

I would really appreciate your advices if you have any knowledge of this family

Nashua
Hi Nashua, Elizabeth Emily Buckland is related to me through my grandmothers family. I only found out the other day that they were gypsys. I know this link is old but if it gets to you I would really appreciate anything light you could shine on this family. Sue
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: rhspeedway on Saturday 05 September 15 15:20 BST (UK)
Hi all i have not been on here as often as i mabe should but if anyone has any intrest in the buckland/rose family i would find it very interesting to talk about this as i am very proud of my family, my link is thomas and cinderella rose/ rea buckland was my great grand parants, one of there sons also named thomas rose who married elizabeth merchant was my grand parants, they had four children the youngest was doreen my mother, she is what is known as second generation gypsy as my grandfather was the last to do any traveling and lived most of his life in a house in chippenham wiltshire he died in the eary 80s my mother is still with us although her brother and two sisters are sadly not but they were all fantastic people and a very loving family, all the best richard.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Richardxii on Friday 08 July 16 18:30 BST (UK)
My Name is Toni Hassett and I have an interest in Mary Howard.
I suspect a gypsy connection in my our genetic heretige, I had an uncle Jim Howard.
What do you Know of Mary's ancestors/family?
How do i find out more?
 :) :)

Hi Nashua
Like most families there are lots of Branches,I have taken note of what you have posted,  and will have alook for them My own Bucklands came from  Oxfordshire, but also at times mentioned Bristol, if you know Bristol Gloucester Road was well known for Gypsies, I know my familty did go to USA and settled there some did return to UK , but then settled in Devon cornwall area.
Some names do pop out at me like Jenty ( this was Gentilla orginally the church would not recgonise it as a name for obvious reasons so it got changed can be spelt Jenty Genty or even Jennie)
Adolphus was another, I have had somesome contact me about a Nelson Buckland who came from Bristol think family still there today, it maybe relations to  your family, i know that someone again has mentioned 2 brothers Adolphus & John ( sounds like your names) that went into Fair rides.  Motte was also used by Williams family as name .
Its also possible your family came from a Plato Buckland known to travel and marry into Williams & Fletchers some of children's names you mentioned sound like them,  he was from Buckinghamshire area lots of Bucklands related to him.
Point of interest :
The families didn;t always live in Caravans usually only when they traveled most were senisble and bought property
which would be their winter homes and also an investment
also did you know that families often used alias some used parents grandparents surnames.

Stangely I do have a Census when my own family are traveling with a family : I would guess that Mary Howard was married to a Jones for her daughter to use the name:

1881 Census Tavistock Cornwall Caravans Petericks Ground

Mary Howard born 1824 aged 57 Head Tavistock ( fruit seller & coster)

Jane Jones/Dann born 1846 aged 35 daughter Tavistock

Emily Dann born 1868 aged 13 grand-daughter Tavistock

William Thomas Dann born 1871 aged 10 grand-son Tavistock

Jane Jones/Dann husband is actually in 1st foot Reg Devonshire at this time


I will look for you see what I can find I would also suggest 2 things try doing a Scavenger hunt on here ask about it to Tephra its a really good way of finding info
alos go look at romanygenes site its has lots of info there about many families and again you could post a message might bring you some luck
happy hunting Nashua and what a lovely name
sandy
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Richardxii on Friday 08 July 16 18:34 BST (UK)
My name is Veronica and I know of a Mary Howard, if my research is on the right track she is the step grandmother of my grandfather Thomas Jones!  My great grandmother would be Jane her daughter who married a John Jones and moved from Tavistock Devon to Cardiff Wales approx 1881 to 1891
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Paul Mayo on Monday 26 September 16 14:14 BST (UK)
Hi wood_gnome.
My ancestors were Romani & gypsy hawkers etc, at one stage based in vans at the White Hart Yard in Godalming, Surrey. My great-grandfather's family had gravitated to the huge common at Mitcham, Surrey, where he eventually settled down in a house.

The trouble was that although Romanis and gypsies had been seen as romantic during the 19th century, their image began to change later in the century, until they were commonly associated with thieves and vagabonds. This made my own (and many other) ancestors ashamed of their heritage and they tried to disappear into the gaujo population. From my grandfather on, all trace of our ancestry was expunged, even though he was a full-bred Romani.

However, they gave it away somewhat by their regular use of Romani words in ordinary conversation; in my childhood these words were not always known or recognised by non-family.

Although my heritage was completely hidden from me and only discovered by chance when I was middle-aged, my childhood and youth was peppered with clues. For example my ability to see and interact with gnomes and fairies, my restless wandering and outdoors nature, my love of smoky campfires, my total inability to settle into an orthodox career or job, and my eventual settling on dukkering, astrology and card reading to earn a living - all without my having the slightest clue of my Romani heritage!  Blood will out, as they say.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Redroger on Monday 26 September 16 15:24 BST (UK)
It would be most helpful to myself, and I am sure to many others if you would be kind enough to post some of the Romani words. I have my own suspicions. Thanks
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Paul Mayo on Monday 26 September 16 17:00 BST (UK)
Is that a reply to me, Redroger? You don't say.

Assuming so: for example, my father and uncles called each other 'mush' all the time. How is this helpful? What suspicions do you have?
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Monday 26 September 16 17:44 BST (UK)
I think if you gave us your grandfathers name and approx. date of birth we maybe able to follow.not all romanies are fortune tellers and we surely do not interact with fairies and gnomes!!!most of us are proud of what we are and never seek to hide it.it is our blood that makes us who we are.there are romanies that are doctors,mayors,teachers as well as landscapers and tarmacers and into plastics.its mainly the woman that go in for dukkering not the men.theres a lot more to our lives then most folk know.gaujo and mush are well known words.tell us some of the more unusual ones you know??
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Paul Mayo on Monday 26 September 16 20:10 BST (UK)
cathayb, I did not mean to infer that all Romanis are fortune tellers nor anything of the sort. Could you perhaps be a little over-sensitive about that?

In fact I think that side of me came not through my male-line Romani ancestors so much; more through my mother's side of the family, who were descended from French Hugenots according to my late maternal grandmother Connie, bless her soul. Certainly there were Hugenots in Mitcham and had been for centuries. She lived in Lavender Grove, built on the site of the former lavender farm there.

By the way, I am not a fortune-teller. I merely help people to understand themselves better, with a few guidelines and dates for the future and insights into past events. To save the obvious response, this is not an advert for my services, as I have always had more clients than I can cope with and am determinedly winding down after a long career.

My mother was very psychic but deeply scared of that ability and repressed it as best she could. I was not scared and developed it, which has enabled me to help thousands of people to understand themselves better. I also was a schoolteacher for a few years as a younger man, teaching physics. I am autistic, but not stupid. I see things most others apparently don't. Generally I have to keep very quiet about that in polite company; maybe it applies to this site too?

You ask about my paternal grandfather, the full-blood gypsy (Romani as far as the family can tell). My grandfather (George Henry Mayo) was the first on the male side of the family to be born in a house, in Mitcham. His father in turn had been born 'by the side of the road' to quote his birth certificate, as were all his forebears. I think the direct ancestor who lived in the White Hart Yard was called James Mayo, but I'd have to check that with my brother or sister, who are the natural archivists of the family.

I am the eldest son of the eldest son of the eldest son, going back and back.

I can see what Redroger meant by his suspicions now, as it is also radiating from your reply too cathayb, and I can understand. Please do not think that I meant any disrespect to the Romani community; I did not. I'm a third generation outsider now, looking into your private forum where you have rightly earned considerable ascendancy and respect. So I can just bugger off, and I will, with full apology.

Please appreciate that my posts on the site today were merely in the hope of drawing out more information about my ancestry than my family already knows.

My wife and I have been surrounded by a circle of Romanis occasionally visiting us from the etheric realms for several years now, helping us to stay safe from the many threats that people like us face - and healing us when we fall victim to the negativity of certain ignorant people's over-powerful Ego-driven minds. These kind and protective 'visitors' did tell us their family name, but I have forgotten it. It might have been Lee; I'll check to see if my wife remembers.

This 'camp-fire group' is the private reason I posted up. Perhaps my curiosity was idle; some things are not to be mentioned - yet here am I laying it out for anyone to see. In my opinion, the world is in such a parlous state that we human people are past the point where keeping secrets is the answer. 'Lay it out and let people choose for themselves' is my simple philosophy now. If that results in me being disrespected, wounded or shot out of the skies, too bad. I'm old and ready to join the ancestors any time. Meanwhile our circle of helpers is keeping us going.

I'll leave you in peace now. May you and your family be much loved and respected.
My regards and good wishes to all who read this,
Paul Mayo
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Monday 26 September 16 20:20 BST (UK)
in all honesty.Mayo is not a recognised romany surname.you fail to give us the name of your ancestor born on the side of the road which would give us the opportunity of researching your family for you.this is a research site for ancestors.nothing you have told me bodes with you being romany.as for your circle of romanies..I find that rubbish.let our ancestors rest in peace.your life here is what you make it not anything from the spirit world.eldest son of eldest son means nothing to us.i think you know nothing about the full blood romany and the things you are getting up to have nothing to do with us.we are workers.we kept this countries farms running for hundreds of years and fought and died in two world wars.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Paul Mayo on Monday 26 September 16 21:06 BST (UK)
Yes, I get your drift cathayb - you don't have to send it with torpedoes and depth charges.

I'll take you up on your offer to research when I can find the name of my great-grandfather and his dates, which my family tree will show. I'm waiting for my brother to send all the details.

My grandfather, by the way, was a marine and fought in WWI. My father was a medical electronics engineer and helped design the iron lung and body-scanner. I was a throwback, mostly working on farms as a young man. Please don't be disrespectful, regardless of your opinion. You don't know everything about life and nor do I. Frankly, coming up against you has been like facing the thought-police. Some full-blood Romanis have said to me that Mayo is a recognised gypsy name; others say not. But at least they put it politely in each case.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Paul Mayo on Tuesday 27 September 16 09:45 BST (UK)
Redroger and cathayb, the reason I did not respond to your request to report some of the Romani words used by my family, as a test to see if my family had Romani roots, is that the whole of the Romani language has been in the public domain for 200 years, at least since George Borrow began to report his conversations with the Petulengros and other Roms.

As I have read all his books (such as 'Romany Rye') and also other Romani autobiographies that had many phrases and words in them, how am I supposed to remember what was genuinely from my hearing them in childhood and what I've merely read in these books?

In addition, many Rom words can be found on the internet, so I don't think that asking someone to say these words would be a very useful test of ancestry. So I'm sticking to plain English.

I'm three-quarters gaujo and one quarter gypsy of some kind - whether from genuinely Romani stock or just hawkers of some other kind remains to be seen - once cathayb has got my names and dates info and is able to do her research as she kindly offered.

I came onto this site in response to an out-of-the-blue private message from a Romani gentleman who hoped I could help him trace the links between his family and the Mayo's. However, he already knew more about that than I did. It seems the Mayo ancestors intermarried with a number of attested Romani families including his, also at least one fairground family.

I came onto the 'Are they gypsies?' blog to find out the facts, if possible. I have some full-blood Romani friends, so it would be interesting if it turned out we are distantly related, however far back.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: sarah on Tuesday 27 September 16 11:38 BST (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat Paul, everyone is welcome :)

You have found our section on Travelling folk and indeed have posted on a thread which many folk have wondered about  "are they gypsies".

Wishing you all the best with your research.

Regards

Sarah
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Paul Mayo on Tuesday 27 September 16 17:06 BST (UK)
Thanks for your welcome Sarah, which is most appreciated by me.

Also I need to let cathayb know that I have had another offer on this site to help track down my ancestors, which I decided to accept, which means I shall not need to trouble catheyb any further, much to her relief I'm sure.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: sallyyorks on Friday 30 September 16 15:26 BST (UK)
From an older rootschat topic (Topic: Romany Names in The Midlands)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=491526.0
(this info was posted in the topic by rootschat member nelwild)

1871 census
George Mayo born 1835 Sussex hawker
Elizabeth born 1839 Surrey
William born 1860
Ellen born 1862
Henry born 1863
Frederick born 1866 all Brixton,Surrey.
Emily born 1871 Godalming
living in a caravan in Godalming,Surrey.

RG10 piece 815 folio17 page 28
with them James Deacon and family.

1881 census
George Mayo born 1831 general dealer
Emily born 1840 N/K
Ellen born 1862 N/K
Emily born 1870 N/K
Jane born 1873 Godalming
John born 1877 Godalming
James born 1878 Godalming
Alfred born 1881 Godalming
William born 1860 N/K  general dealer
Henry born 1863 N/K  general dealer
Frederick born 1865 N/K  general dealer
in caravans White Hay Yard,Godalming.

others there are Hammond and Hopkins.
class RG11 piece 780 folio 27 page 49
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Paul Mayo on Friday 30 September 16 20:31 BST (UK)
Wow! That's amazing sallyyorks, that this info was there on this site all along. George is a common name in my more immediate ancestry too, as my father and grandfather both bore this as their first name.

I've also heard that James Deacon married Elizabeth Mayo. I wonder what nelwild's interest was? Does her family link into the Mayo's as well, do you know?
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Friday 30 September 16 21:20 BST (UK)
apologies for not knowing that Mayo was indeed a romany name.i hope you find the info you are looking for.i am sorry if I came over a bit short I just don't understand the spiritual side you were referring too.but if I can help trave a ancestor for you I am happy to help.hope you accept my apologies.cathayb
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: sallyyorks on Saturday 01 October 16 00:50 BST (UK)
... I wonder what nelwild's interest was? Does her family link into the Mayo's as well, do you know?

I think nelwild was probably just helping out.

Some more census info (from https://familysearch.org/ )below that I think are the same family.

I couldn't find a place called "Hayfield" in Sussex or an "Arfold". Maybe he meant that he was literally born in a hay field

1861 census
Lyam Road, Lambeth, Surrey
George Mayo   Head   M   25   Hayfield, Sussex - labourer
Elizabeth Mayo   Wife   F   22   Lambeth, Surrey
William G Mayo   Son   M   1   Lambeth, Surrey


Marriage
March 1859-Wandsworth
George Mayo - Elizabeth Damaris Messenger
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/


1901 census
Ockford Road, Godalming, Surrey, England
George Mayho   Head   M   64   Arfold, Sussex- Carpenter Journeyman
Damaris E Mayho   Wife   F   60   Norwood, Surrey
Jane E Mayho   Daughter   F   28   Farnham, Surrey
William A Howard   Boarder   M   33   Aldershot, Hampshire
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Paul Mayo on Saturday 01 October 16 12:38 BST (UK)
Thank you Cathy, I accept your apology. However, it still remains to be seen if Mayo is a Romany name. It seems likely to be, but more research is needed. This is currently beginning to happen.
Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Paul Mayo on Saturday 01 October 16 13:54 BST (UK)
Thanks Sally. All that information is very interesting. These names are still common in the family, including my own children and right down to my nephew's children, without knowing they were ancestral names.

My father had tight black curly hair and a very swarthy appearance, so I'm wondering if my ancestors might have been from the low-caste 'black-faced' gypsies. When my wife first knew me, she imagined for the first year of our relationship that I was from India, or at the very least from the southern Mediterranean, as I had long wavy dark hair and a very brown skin. However, probably the latter was simply because I was always very brown from the Sun, as I worked casually outside on farms a lot.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Paul Mayo on Saturday 01 October 16 20:52 BST (UK)
Ok, Sally, these people you list are definitely my direct ancestors.

George Mayo the wheelwright = Elizabeth Damaris Messenger were my great great grandparents.

George's father was called James Mayo, my 3x grandfather.

James' parents were John Mayho = Sarah Whitehorne. Sarah remarried Job Light after James' death. James was described as a 'chair bottomer'. They were my 4xg grandparents.

This is where my family have been unable to progress any further back. They were all illiterate and lived on the road, using carts for transport.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: cathayb on Sunday 02 October 16 16:01 BST (UK)
where was job Light born please and approx. date??I have Lights in my tree.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Paul Mayo on Sunday 02 October 16 19:40 BST (UK)
All I know is Chichester, but that may be just Job's place of residence. If I find out more I'll let you know.
Paul
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: sue q on Friday 07 October 16 09:11 BST (UK)
There is a Hartfield inEast Sussex, it's near Winnie the Pooh's home, Ashdown Forest. Sue
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: davem43624 on Saturday 05 November 16 18:21 GMT (UK)
Job Light was born in Iping (Sussex) in 1806.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: davem43624 on Saturday 05 November 16 18:25 GMT (UK)
Arfold in Sussex is Alfold, just a few miles from Godalming where most of the Mayo/Mayho family eventually settled.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Leza Bennett on Thursday 02 February 17 12:46 GMT (UK)
I have been researching my ancestry and my mother was born a Mayo.Her father was Fredrick William Thomas Mayo .His father was William George Mayo .His father was George Mayo who married Elizabeth Damaris Messenger .So I think we are distantly related .Very interesting that they were tinker /peddlars .I love the old photo that is on your post is it "the Mayos " ?
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: davem43624 on Thursday 02 February 17 14:30 GMT (UK)
In response to many earlier posts in this thread, Mayo is not a gypsy name, at least from the Romany websites I've visited. It also has no association with Ireland: the name was around for several centuries before the county! CathayB is right! I should also point out that although my grandfather was indeed a marine, he saw no action in WW1. His ship was a "river monitor", which was sent around Africa and through the Suez Canal to fight the Turks. The ship was in dock for some months after a collision in the Suez Canal, and WW1 ended before it was repaired!
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: JenRob on Saturday 04 March 17 19:01 GMT (UK)
I came across this site today after researching me Mum's family tree & where she was born when her Mother was evacuated during WW2.
We also have the name Mayo / Deacon (Deakins) in our family tree.
My Nan told me from a young age that she was a Romani Gypsie & that there was a Mayo who married a Deacon, neither wanted to change their surname, so it became Mayo-Deacon / Deakin.
As a child I didn't pursue the history behind it, sadly me Nan passed away in 2007.

I have done some research & also found the same information supplied by
Some more census info (from https://familysearch.org/ )below that I think are the same family.

I couldn't find a place called "Hayfield" in Sussex or an "Arfold". Maybe he meant that he was literally born in a hay field

1861 census
Lyam Road, Lambeth, Surrey
George Mayo   Head   M   25   Hayfield, Sussex - labourer
Elizabeth Mayo   Wife   F   22   Lambeth, Surrey
William G Mayo   Son   M   1   Lambeth, Surrey


Marriage
March 1859-Wandsworth
George Mayo - Elizabeth Damaris Messenger
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/


1901 census
Ockford Road, Godalming, Surrey, England
George Mayho   Head   M   64   Arfold, Sussex- Carpenter Journeyman
Damaris E Mayho   Wife   F   60   Norwood, Surrey
Jane E Mayho   Daughter   F   28   Farnham, Surrey
William A Howard   Boarder   M   33   Aldershot, Hampshire

So it seems that I may have a connection with others on this site.







Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Redroger on Tuesday 07 March 17 20:19 GMT (UK)
   If Ireland follows the same rules on locative surnames as England then someone called (say) Charlie Mayo would simply be Charlie from Mayo according to his ancestry. It would therefore be possible for a family of Irish Travellers to be surnamed Mayo I would think?
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: Lamps1 on Tuesday 30 October 18 17:01 GMT (UK)
Hi

Very interested in this post as my 3 x grandparents are the James Deacon and Elizabeth Mayo mentioned within these posts. I have carried out a lot of research on my families and am interested to hear from anybody who have the same names within their lines. My Deacon family travelled mostly the Southern Counties and settled from Portsmouth to Surrey. My Deacon line settled in Worthing Sussex and the Women were the Flower Sellers and the men were General Dealer/Horse Dealers. Names I have on my tree are Harris, Beeney, Johnson, Dighton, Smith, Rhoades, Bacon, Barber, Ripley, Eastwood to name a few. I have also had my AncestryDNA done and have DNA matches to Bowers, Stanley, Lovell and Boswell families (how they fit into my paper trail yet I do not know)

Paul
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: whiteout7 on Tuesday 30 October 18 20:38 GMT (UK)

I couldn't find a place called "Hayfield" in Sussex or an "Arfold". Maybe he meant that he was literally born in a hay field

1901 census
Ockford Road, Godalming, Surrey, England
George Mayho   Head   M   64   Arfold, Sussex- Carpenter Journeyman
Damaris E Mayho   Wife   F   60   Norwood, Surrey
Jane E Mayho   Daughter   F   28   Farnham, Surrey
William A Howard   Boarder   M   33   Aldershot, Hampshire

Arfold, sounds alot like Arford, West Sussex to me with a bad accent, lol? Lots of hayfields there!
George May(h)o looks to be born pre civil registration, make him harder to find, maybe baptism somewhere only?

Carpenter Journeyman - means George Mayo served an apprenticeship in carpentry and had a master.
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: whiteout7 on Tuesday 30 October 18 20:48 GMT (UK)
I think this is George Mayo in the Newspapers

"BOARD OF GUARDIANS
... elderly intra named George Mayo, employed a carpenter by Mr. Pitt at some new buildings at Ebley, fell from scaffold a distance of about 18 feet. He was attended Dr. Power, who found that no bones were but that the man had suffered ..."
Saturday 22 October 1898, Gloucester Citizen

Ebley is near Goldaming and the description of George Mayo fits

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

Builders, so scary!



 
Title: Re: Are they gypsies?
Post by: tmm1975 on Tuesday 26 March 19 06:52 GMT (UK)
Hi All,

Cathayb, did you ever manage to find out anymore information on George and Ann Munday nee Mason?

Long time, i know.  Lost interest for quite a while, obviously renewed now!

Cheers
Tanya