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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Roscommon => Topic started by: Brie on Friday 29 February 08 14:19 GMT (UK)
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I wonder if anyone can help me. We have a letter written by my ggg grandfather in which he states that his father was a William Phibbs Irwin. He also mentions his cousin General Irwin who had just died c1890 aged about 80 so I was able to trace him and through him the parents. That generation all seem to have been born at Camlin.
I cannot find Camlin as a place but I have recently found ahouse called Camlin in which some Irwins lived. So could somebody enlighten me as to whether or not there is a Camlin village/hamlet etc or does Camlin definately mean the house.
Also does anyone have any idea whether or not there is anything written about the Irwins anywhere.
Thanks
Brie
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Some facts from Camlin Civil Parish circa 1837
Parish of Camlin or Crumlin.
It is a parish in the Upper Massereene, county of Antrim and province of Ulster. (Ireland)
Apparantly situated on Lough Neagh.
Does this tie in at all with what you have?
Su
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Thanks for the prompt reply.
Unfortunately it doesn't really fit as we know the family came from Southern Ireland.
Best wishes
Brie
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Also there is a mention of some tithe payments to a John Irwin esq. of Camlin (landlord) by an Easky at Ballymeeny Sligo County. (1824)
To start you off if you just do a search on a web site - put in William Phibbs Irwin Camlin Ireland and you will be quite surprised what may come up!
Have Fun
Su
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Also mention of a Richard Phibbs Irwin to do with County Sligo races and a Captain Irwin. circa 1814.
Is it possible these are related to you in some way?
Su
A few more details would be quite helpful as to which part of Ireland you think your Camlin may be located in and a few other names for people to chase for you :D
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Hello again,
Yes, I think these people are all relations but I can't quite work out how they connect and I am beginning to think I'm going to have to start saving and make a visit to Ireland. My father has always believed the family to be from the Roscommon/Sligo area. Also these Irwins hang around with Phibbses.
I have quite a bit more information from the letter but I haven't got that with me at the moment. I just didn't want to overload people. I will dig the letter out and the other bits of information - I may get a chance to do that this evening but if not I will tackle it on Monday as I'm working all weekend.
Thanks again
Brie
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Have been trying to trace a family named Phibbs as we have a very old Bible in my husband's house and found it to be very much a Sligo name. That Phibbs family seem to be connected to Armstrongs and Hamiltons and just yesterday I got some more leads to follow up in 1911 census. Get in touch if any of the names sound familar.
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Hello
I'll try to keep it brief. As Suzy says if you search the names on the internet rather a lot comes up so I have bits of circumstantial evidence from that.
GG Grandpa William Irwin's (b 1821) cousin was General Irwin of the 88th Connaught Rangers. The General's father was called John and is referred to by William (b1821) as John of Camlin, Ct. Roscommon. William's (1821) father was called William Phibbs Irwin and was the younger brother of John.
On IGI members of the Church of LDS has submitted the following. John Irwin b.1816 and Rebecca Phibbs and a list of children including a John b. 1762 and a younger son William b. 1768. This looks right especially as Rebecca's father is called Harloe Phibbs and Harlow is a tradional name in my family. But I don't have any proper verifycation and don't know from where this information was obtained.
There is a Wlliam Phibe Irwin on IGI who marries an Ann Kelly 1795 (but in Scotland) Again I haven't any independant verifycation.
In 1827 a newspaper report refers to an Ann Honoria Kelly relict of William Phibbs Irwin marrying D'Arcy Mahon.
1837 Ann and D'Arcy are appealing in the House of Lords on behalf of Ann's son William (a minor) by William Phibbs Irwin. It doesn't say what the case was about but I do know that William (1821) inherited land from his mother which he lost under the Encumbered Estates Act. I have no proof that Ann Honoria and this William Phibbs Irwin are William's (1821) parents but the circumstantial evidence is stacking up.
I suppose I need William's (1821) birth certificate. He was born in Ireland but I don't know where. Any ideas how I obtain this if it is possible? And also exactly what Camlin was/is as I could then possibly find where the relevant records would be kept.
And finally, sorry to be so long William (1821) writes he has "been at the house of his father's cousin, one Col. Irwin of the Sligo Militia and seen the original grant of Lands in Roscommon and Sligo from Henry Cromwell, the Protector's son, to a Colonel of the same name, who was a founder of the Irish branch of the family.... " This person I can't pin down at all.
In answer to an earlier post I'm sorry but I haven't found any Armstrongs or Hamiltons.
Thanks
Brie
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Hi Brie
What a fascinating ancestry you will have!
Now I think it is a case of joining the two up.
To revert back to your original query, it does sound as though the majority of your ancestors came from the more 'northerly ' Camlin. Perhaps they moved south and started naming their houses Camlin and even areas/roads/estates as Camlin (depending on their influence within the community!) I am of course guessing at this :D - the documentation you eventually find will tell you the facts.
Personally I have always found it easier to work from present day back - I do not know if they had birth certificates in 1821 (any experts please help here! ???) I think you may be back into the parish registers.
It may be worth liaising with aghadowey to see if you have any 'phibbs' in common.
Also on the Irish General page there are a couple of articles from Ticker who is the moderator here and they will give you some great sites to search on.
I couldn't see any other Camlins, but calling all Roscommon experts out there - please let Brie know if any different. ???
Sorry to generalise on lots of points, I wish I was a little more knowledable on Irish geography but not as yet!
Good Luck Brie and stick at it. ;D
Su
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Civil registration of births, deaths and Catholic marriages started in 1864 (non-catholic marriages from 1845)- for earlier dates you need to search for church records (if they still exist).
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Hello there!
I was delighted to see your post - I've been searching for you (or anyone in your lineage) for about five years! Camlin House, located just south of Boyle, Co. Roscommon, was one of the Irwin estates and the house still stands. If you go to Google Earth and go to the following coordinates, you can see it for yourself: 53 degrees, 54' 29.24"W and 8 degrees, 18' 27.66"W. If you type Boyle, Co. Roscommon, Ireland into the Google Earth search box and hit "enter", you will find yourself starting out north of Camlin. Look south and you will see two lakes close together just a little east of the direct line south from Boyle. Now look south-southwest and you will see a small lake that looks like the hull of a boat. Look west of that lake (Treanamarly Lough), and you will see a small river that heads west from the narrow tip of the boat shape. Simply follow that river west and you will see a house that casts a north-facing shadow. That is Camlin House! There is a village named Camlin as well, just a little southeast of the estate. The townland is also called Camlin, the civil parish is Estersnow, in the Barony of Boyle. Any reference to the Irwin estate would probably call it Camlin House, not merely Camlin.
My interest in Camlin House stems from a family mystery I've been trying to unravel for many years. It seems that my gggGrandfather, John McWilliam, may have been an employee of John Irwin from around 1840 to 1863, when all of the family except my ggGrandfather immigrated to New Zealand. John and his wife Rebecca apparently lived at the gatehouse at Camlin, although there is no sign of a gatehouse any more.
You may email me off the board if you'd like. I have a few more details about Camlin House, but not much. I would be most interested in collaborating on research into your Irwins in case anything turns up about the estate and its employees. My email address is darwinsmomATrogersDOTcom. I hope this at least helps you to see where your people came from.
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Thanks for all your help. As I am back to the end of the 1700s I think as Darwinsmom has suggested I need to approach the local library and see if they know of any archives, records etc.
And Aghadowey, if I find any Armstrongs or Hamiltons I will let you know.
Brie
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Hi Brie
Thanks for PM.
Back to the 1700's! Can't be bad, I am only just getting to the late 1700 :(
It gets so much harder as you become reliant on documents and bits mentioned here and there!
Hope the Library visit is a success :D
Su
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Hi Brie
My gt gt gdmother (my ancestors were late "marry-ers") was Mary Irwin b1801 at Camlin co Roscomon as described by Darwinsmom. She married Caleb Robertson of Boyle. The C of I clergy for Estersnow parish must have been very thorough as it was easy on the IGI to trace Mary's ancestry back:-
Mary's brother John Irwin III of Camlin 1800-1842, married Emily Bolton
Mary's father John Irwin II of Camlin 1762-1842, md Elizabeth O'Malley
John II's parents John Irwin I of Camin 1716-91 and Rebecca Phibbs married at Camlin 1757
John Irwin I's parents - Thoms Irwin II b 1763 Camlin & Ann Walker m 1700 t Granny (which seems to be a big house near Camlin)
Thomas Irwin II's parents - Thomas Irwin I b 1631 Camlin & Mary Jane Knott b c 1635 Camlin - this is mostly on IGI but it seems clearly the same family
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Welcome to Rootschat abeyview but are you sure all the Iriwn records you mention did come from the church records? All the IGI entries I saw were submitted not extracted records and while the details could have from from the Parish records (of they still exist) you would need to check as there is no guarantee that submitted records are accurate.
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Hello Abbeyview,
It does look as if it is the same family and I will e-mail you personally with the information I have. It won't be immediately as I am at work and will have to dig out all the stuff and my filing system leaves a lot to be desired. From what I can see your Mary was my gggg grandfather's cousin so our ggggg grandfathers were one and the same.
However, as Aghadowey says the IGI entries are submitted ones and there are some that I looked at in relation to the Irwins that seemed a bit odd - an 80 year old father for instance - possible but unlikely. But on the other hand there are surnames of women who apparently married into the family that continued in later generations of my branch of the family. I do know that my family came from Camlin as I have a letter written by my ggg grandfather which clearly states that. However, how to proceed from there is difficult. I have contacted the local library as to where records would be kept but haven't received a reply. So at the moment at an impasse.
Brie
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there's a town callend 'Camolin' near Gorey in Co. Wexford - they way its spoken locally it very nearly sounds like Camlin - the 'O' is almost skipped over.
Shane.
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Hi Brie (and others)
If Mary Irwin is a cousin then the common ancestors seem to be John Irwin 1716-91 and his 2nd wife Rebecca Phibbs (unless you descend from his first wife whom IGI gives as Ann Knott. Which of their childen do you descend from?
I agree that the fathers give do seem to be old when their children were born but in their 40's (I didn't see one in his 80's !).
The Irwins do appear as quite substantial landowners in Griffith's valuation
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Hi Abbeyview,
The furthest I have got back to with definite documentation is William Irwin b Ireland 1821.
He names his father as William Phibbs Irwin of Camlin. Because of this I think William Phibbs Irwin is likely to be William Irwin b c1768, son of the John Irwin you mention and Rebecca Phibbs as on the IGI. This is further enforced as there is an older brother called Harloe which is a family forename for boys. However, these are only submitted records and I have yet to find where the originals are held or from where this information originated.
My next move is to check out a marriage on the IGI of William Philbe Irwin to an Ann Kelly. I have a lot of circumstantial evidence that this may be my man but have yet to find where or how to view the original document. I live in hope (perhaps rather optimistically) that this may give me some clues.
I wil let you know if I find anything new.
Happy hunting
Brie
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Abbeyview,
I forgot to add that the 80 year old new father wasn't on the IGI but on someone's tree on Ancestry. Sorry I was unclear. I think it is likely that William's father, William Phibbs did have him in is 40s. I also have reason to believe his wife was a bit younger and re-married after his death. However, that is still 'work in progress'.
Cheers
Brie
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I am a descendant of John Irwin of Camlin and have information on the house Camlin and i have various detailed family trees which i would be happy to share.
wj
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Camlin House is currently for sale!!
http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/camlin-house-ballinameen-co-roscommon/333369
Introduction to house states that it was built for the Irwin family in 1610 so someone local may have a history of the family
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Looks like there were two Irwin houses: From: Lewis Topographical- always a good place to llok, free on library.ie
EASTERSNOW, a parish, in the barony of BOYLE, county of ROSCOMMON, and province of CONNAUGHT, 3 1/2 miles (S. S. E.) from Boyle, on the new line of road from Tulsk, through Shankill; containing 1951 inhabitants. It comprises 3199 statute acres, of which the greater part is under tillage, and there are several large grazing farms; about one-tenth is bog, and there are some quarries of good limestone. To the west of the church are the Cavetown loughs, bounded by hills and plantations. At the head of the largest is Croghan House, the seat of the late R. Mahon, Esq., now the property of Guy Lloyd, Esq., and on a hill beyond it is an obelisk, forming a conspicuous landmark. On the opposite shore is Clogher, the seat of J. Dick, Esq. The other seats are Camlin, that of J. Irwin, Esq., and Granny, of T. Irwin, Esq.; and on the road to Elphin are several neat residences, on the property of Viscount Lorton.
The living is a vicarage, in the diocese of Elphin, episcopally united, in 1813, to the vicarage of Kilcola, and in the patronage of the Bishop; the rectory is impropriate in Lord Crofton. The tithes amount to £60. 16., one-half payable to the impropriator, and the other to the vicar; and the tithes of the benefice amount to £62. 14. 2., to which is added £39 per ann. from the Augmentation fund. The glebe-house was erected by aid of a gift of £337, and a loan of £70. from the late Board of First Fruits, in 1821.
The church, a very plain edifice, is situated in a deep hollow near the southern extremity of the "Plains of Boyle," of which this parish is considered to be the limit. In the R. C. divisions the parish forms part of the union or district of Croghan and Ballinameen. The parochial school, and a school under the patronage of Mrs. Irwin, of Camlin, afford instruction to about 80 children; and there is also a private school, in which are about 30 children. In Cavetown are some caves partially filled up; they are said to extend to a very great length. There are also some scarcely perceptible vestiges of an old castle, called Moylerg, which is said to have belonged to the Mac Dermotts
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Hello Camlin,
A big welcome to rootschat. I am keeping everything crossed that you might be the person to help me make my breakthrough.
I am descended from William Kelly Irwin b 1821 in Ireland. In a letter we have written by him he states that his father was William Phibbs Irwin of Camlin. Phibbs is used as a middle name quite often in my family tree, Harlow is used regularly as a forename. However, I do not have the evidence to show how my Williams connect to the Camlin tree although it seems pretty certain that they do somewhere. There are more details about what I do know earlier in this thread.
I would love to share information with you. At present you won't be able to contact me through the personal message (PM) system. You need to make three posts (so just send a couple of replies to this thread) and then you will be able to send personal messages that aren't open to the world wide web.
Myluck,
I saw the house was for sale - unfortunately beyond my budget ;D
Brie
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Before you get the wrong idea I wasn't trying to sell it!!!
There is a possibilty that who ever is may have further information about or from the house.
A branch of my own family is from near the area
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Myluck,
Don't worry, I didn't think you were.
Another member of my family has tried the agent route but I think the only information he got was that John Irwin lived there in the nineteenth century which is a bit late for me. My ancestor will have been born in the 18th century. Thanks anyway.
Brie
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Hello Brie -- good to hear from you.
John Irwin of Camlin 1716-1791 (m 1st Ann Knott) m 2nd Rebecca Phibbs 172?-1809. John & Rebecca were my great-great-great-great grand-parents.
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Hello Brie.
My family tree starts with Thomas Irwin b 1631 m Mary Jane Knott & runs down to my generation. Originally it was compiled by '??Albert??' Irwin Indian Civil service October 1902 & has been added to.
camlin
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The website 'landedestates.nuigalway.ie' may be of interest as it gives information on Camlin plus other 'Irwin' properties eg. Ballymore, Eastersnow, Granny East, etc.
camlin
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I spoke to the estate agent who is trying to sell Camlin. He sent me various bits of info : a brochure with photos & land map, a copy of the 'Irwin silhouette' & a photo of a portrait of John Irwin (he thought??!)
camlin
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Hi Camlin,
Thanks for replying. I think John and Rebecca are my William Phibbs Irwin's parents but as yet don't have any proof. William Phibbs Irwin was my gggg grandfather. I'll PM you.
Thanks again
Brie
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Hi Brie / Camlin,
William Phibbs Irwin actually resided at Carrowroe Lodge at Dunsandle (modern Kilconierin parish) in Galway at the time of the 1821 census. The house had been held by the Kelly family who apparently produced no fewer than five officers in the Army. After 'WPI', the house was held next by John Dennis (an accomplished Huntsman who once competed in the Grand National).
I am currently completing a history of the parish and would appreciate any nuggets of information on 'WPI' that either of you may have, or if you have any questions for me I would be happy to answer same. My personal e-mail address is (*).
Continued good luck in your research.
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to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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There is a Camlin house, which has been restored and is is the market right now.There is no village of Camlin as stated above it is in fact Ballinameen.The Irwins originally built this house but lost it through debt and later rented it from Guy Lloyd of Croghan house who eventually evicted them.They rented land nearby in the townland of Corroy, Kilcolagh parish which can be seen on Griffiths evaluation 1858.There was a book written about the Irwins of this Camlin house unfortunately I cant remember the title.
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This is a photo of Camlin
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HI Brie,
My daughter just sent me the link to this site and she is correct when she said she thought it was about our family.
My mother's maiden name was Irwin, my older brother's 2nd name is Irwin and my other brother's 2nd name is Camiln after the family house in Ireland. I have named my house Camlin Rose.
Mum's father came over here to NZ at the tender age of 17/18? He married and began farming on River Road just North of Ngatea on the Hauraki Plains. They were affectionately known as Pady and Kitty, real names were John and Katherine. They had two daughters, the elder was my Auntie Moi (real name also Katherine) and my Mother, Heather. When Mum was about 2yrs old they returned to Ireland for about a year when his father (my great-grandfather) became ill. When they returned they settled on another farm on the Hauraki Plains on Kaihere Rd on the other side of Ngatea. That is where I was born. My mother has a family tree of the Irwin side that dates back to 1536. It make fascinating reading. If you are still looking for information I would be happy to give you any info I can.
Helen.
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Hello Camlinrose,
Welcome to rootschat. I am very interested in any information that you have. I do now have a tree that goes back if I remember correctly to the late 1600s and it would be very interesting to compare them. I also have other bits that may be of interest to you depending on where our trees link.
It is probably best to send information through the Personal Message (PM) system. In order to do this you will need to make a couple more posts here and then an icon will appear on your screen that will allow us to communicate privately through this site.
So if you reply to this...
Looking forward to corresponding
Brie
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Hi Brie
I am looking forward to chatting with you too. I will have to get a copy of the family tree so I can correctly quote stuff to you. One of the interesting things is that I remember off the top of my head is that a few generations back there was a Henry Irwin and a Henrietta Irwin (1st cousins) They married and had (I think) 9 children, (I will confirm when I get the copy done) but they named their children all with the initial H! There was Henry, Harloe, Harold, Helen, Heather, Hanora, Harry, ....you get the picture! Goodness knows how the postie coped!! :)
Any way, as you say if we keep chatting like this then we can get on PM system and possibly communicate directly.
Looking forward to hearing from you again,
Helen
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By the way, I forgot to tell you, the daughter that sent me this link is named from the family tree. She is Ann Rebecca. The Ann comes from the wife of the first John Irwin who was actually a Scottish boarderer. There were two brothers who joined Cromwell and fought with him in Ireland thus earning their land in Ireland and beginning the Irwin Irish dynasty.
I will be more specific when I have the document in front of me.
Helen
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Hello Brie and Camlinrose. I came across your conversation quite by accident while researching Harlow Irwin. His name I picked up from the book " Her Story in Four Centuries " by Sylvia Webber. I am an Irwin myself but can only trace my family back to 18th century Cumberland. Some tome ago I took a y-DNA test and joined the Clan Irwin DNA study. Eventually it was confirmed that I was descended from the house of Bonshaw in Dumfriesshire.
It is very likely that my family spent a couple of generations in Ireland on the from Scotland to England. I have been researching Roscommon and Sligo area Irwins for the above study. We are trying to separate the various strands of the Irwin clan there. It is possible that the Rosscommon and Sligo families derive from two different sources.
I would be very pleased to have sight of any family tree information you have and to know whether any of your male relatives has had his y-DNA tested.
One of my direct relatives in Cumberland migrated to New Zealand in the late 19th century and I am still in contact with a 'cousin' near CHCH.
I hope you spot this note and get back to me.
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The Irwins and the Phibbs were kinsmen...
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To Hallmark.
I hope you can see this. I'm not yet up to speed with the system. Thank you for your swift reply. It will take me a little while to decypher the documents and compare them with what we have put together here. One project I'm engaged on is to confirm whether James I (1600) Tanragoe and brother? John (1580) Ardkeelmore descend from a branch of the Bonshaw line (as I do) or whether they are a separate family named Irwin/Irving. Is there anyone that you know of in either of those lines who has had a y-DNA test?
It's my bedtime so I'll stop there and look at this again tomorrow.
Thank you again 73
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Nothing on Pedigree
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to Hallmark : thank you for your contributions. I have some difficulty deciphering the actual link between the Irwin and Phibbs families. Obviously the link is in the Enniskillen / Castle Irvine branch. That line is, as shown in the tree you supplied descended from the Bonshaw Tower root - which I now know is also the source of my own ancestors. (note : the family name was probably Irving at the time of leaving for Ireland but someone had the idea of changing it to Irvine thus mirroring the name used by the Drum,Aberdeenshire branch which, ironically, James Irvine the coordinator of the Clan Irwin DNA study appears to have proved has no genetic connection with the Bonshaw family;
In trying to establish whether one of the Enniskillen people or a relative returned to Britain and was responsible for the birth of my gggGrandfather at Cleator, I have been trying to eliminate several other families using the Irwin name. There are several in Western Ireland. An important element in that search was a document about the Irwin family of Rathmoyle discovered in the National Library of Ireland. A seemingly related group are the Irwin of Tanragoe - there are others. However, James Irvine's latest analyses suggest that, based on DNA evidence, several, if not all, of these westerners may not in fact be Irwin. This is where your mention of the Phibbs family connection is of interest in the off-chance that some Phibbs may have become Irwin.
Looking at what you sent me I think that's unlikely as the connection from what I can see would have been too recent. However, I had a scan of a couple of books that I own and I did come up with a couple of items which may be of interest to you. I will explain the sources at some other occasion . I do not wish to broadcast items which are probably subject to copyright. However, I have an image in colour of one John Phibbs of Lisconny, born 1717.
I will attach a copy here of some armorial of Phibbs and Irwin engraved alongside . Please let mr know if you receive this and whether it is possible to send messages between us.
Posted on behalf of Rihir who sent the message to me in error
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Hi, the Camlin gate house does still exist, I'm living in it. It's just up from the Ballinameen GAA.
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
Hi, the Camlin gate house does still exist, I'm living in it. It's just up from the Ballinameen GAA.
Here's Camlin (House) in Camlin townland, Estersnow civil parish. Follow the drive north from the house to see the gatelodge at the junction of the local road.
https://arcg.is/ruq0S (select MapGenie 25 Inch in Basemap Gallery)
Camlin
https://landedestates.ie/property/1189
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4644624#map=14/53.9023/-8.3072
Google Maps
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01s0w/
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Welcome to Rootschat Cathy
and thank you and Kiltaglassan for the information. A visit to Camlin is on my bucket list. Maybe one day.....