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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Staffordshire => Topic started by: viddavid on Saturday 08 March 08 15:17 GMT (UK)
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A scribbled address in an old prayer book led to me finding brothers Arthur & Ernest ROBINS aged 6 & 4 lodging at Gothic Cottage White Lion Street Castle Church Stafford in 1871. I have managed to trace their lives through many trials and tribulations until death. However I have found no trace of their birth.
Arthurs marriage certificate has a penciled note " Fathers christian name not known , William ? ". Ernests first marriage certificate has father " Thomas ROBINS" occupation grocer. His second marriage has father named Arthur William.Back to the 1871 census and Arthur is given, born 1865 Richmond Surrey.Ernest born 1867 Birmingham. Other names in the house are DEACON,SHARGOOL ?,SHELLY and THOMPSON. Considering the age of Arthur and Ernest I suspect one of these names knew the boys history and put it on the census. Any demolition experts want a crack at this wall ?
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Further to the above Ernest was admitted to Stafford Workhouse April 3rd 1880. He left six days later but was readmitted Feb.18th. 1881. On June 11th.1881 he was apprenticed to Henry SPRAGGINS of Stafford as a shoe finisher.
Arthur ROBINS by this time was lodging in Wigan Lancashire where he spent the rest of his life.
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Hi viddavid
Have you tried looking for Arthur being a couple of year older he might have remember more about his father and put his name down on his marriage
Donna
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sorry i can see now you have his marriage
Donna
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Hi Viddavid,
Welcome to Rootschat.
There is a picture on this site which may be your Gothic House. If you type Gothic into the search engine on the site it will bring the picture up.
www.staffspasttrack.org.uk -
Cathy ;D
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Hello Cathy,
Thank you very much for that link. Yes that is Gothic Cottage. It is still standing today and being used by a printing company. It was built between 1840-1842 on the site of Castle Church workhouse. Later Ernest ROBINS became a pauper inmate of the new Stafford Union Workhouse. I don't know if the cottage was privately owned when it was built.
The prayer book ,owned by Arthur ROBINS has the date 1877 printed followed by -8-9-10-1-2-3-4 added in pencil.This may just be a childs doodle while sitting in church as by 1881 Arthur was in Wigan Lancashire.
There is another address : 46 Newport Road Stafford. I don't know who lived there.....yet.
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Hi Viddavid,
What a sad going on for these two little boys - Ernest in the workhouse and the other one in Wigan Lancashire.
There is an Ernest Robbins born in Aston Warwickshire, Oct/Nov/Dec 1869. For someone filling in the census information on the children they might put Birmingham down, but it is a bit of long shot.
Edit. Sorry this is not the one, he is the son of James and Caroline Robbins on the 1881 census.
Cathy ;D
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Hi Cathy,
Thanks for trying. This is quite a challenge which I've been working on for some time. It's great to have others looking, it has spurred me on.
Yes it was a hard beginning for the two boys. It got a lot worse for Ernest. As I traced his life he married and had six children but was living in a rough area of London. His wife died as did his children. His eldest son died next to him in the trenches during WW1 having returned from Canada to fight. I thought that was the end of the line until I was contacted by someone last year who told me Ernest remarried and had six more children. He died peacefully aged 62 in Wiltshire.
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Hi Viddavid,
What a tragic life poor Arthur had.
On looking at the workhouse website I notice that all the records are held at the County Records Office in Stafford. I am not sure what is recorded on these records but I could have a look for Ernest's entries. My visit might not be for a couple of months yet and if you feel this would help I would be happy to see what there is.
Cathy ;D
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Hello Cathy,
That is a very kind offer. I have had some help from Malinda Law an archivist at the Staffordshire Record Office. She was able to find by searching admissions and discharge register ( Volume D659/1/4/12 ) quite a lot of information. She also searched the Guardians' Minutes ( DD659/1/1/15) to find Ernest left the workhouse to be apprenticed to Henry SPRAGGINS of Stafford as a shoe finisher. This was one piece of good fortune as after his second marriage Ernest was able to open his own shoe shop in Salisbury Wiltshire thanks to learning a trade.
There may be other scraps of information in the volumes of Guardians' Minutes waiting to be discovered as they are not indexed and vary in content depending on the clerk who wrote them. I'm sure you will have a fascinating time but take a box of tissues so your tears don't damage the records. As you can imagine I will be overjoyed if you find something new.
David :)
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There is another address : 46 Newport Road Stafford. I don't know who lived there.....yet.
Still haven't tracked this down as early census doesn't have house numbers. Any ideas ?
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I have just found your message about the inhabitants of Gothic Cottage, White Lion Street, Stafford. My Shargool family lived in Stafford. Edwin Shargool was organist st St Mary's for several years. Do you have a first name for the Shargool person? What date was the census?
It is some time since I researched this branch of the family but there was a baby Shargool which gave me problems. It appeared and then disappeared.
SamaraDan
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Hello SamaraDan,
From the 1871 England census for Staffordshire-Castle Church-District 7-Page9
Pheobe M Shargool
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Stafford, Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Castle Church
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Stafford
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Stafford
Sub-registration district: Castle Church
The latest info I have on Ernest and Arthur ROBINS is that the mother was probably an Elizabeth TIMMIS
Regards
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Thank you, viddavid, for that quick reply!
Phebe(no "o" for some reason in the document I saw) Mary Shargool, Born 29 March 1854, in Stafford, was the daughter of Edwin Shargool, the Organist and "Professor of Music" at St Mary's Stafford and his wife, Mary Hart, whose date of death coincides with Phebe's birth. Phebe was later a music teacher who married a widower, Thomas Kent in Nov 1898 in Seighford `parish Church. He had a son, Reuben Kent from his first marriage. I don't think Phebe had any children. She had two sisters, Mary Louisa and Amy Frances who both died young.
The puzzling Shargool I mentioned was a baby, Emily Mary Shargool, who died in 1882 in the Foregate Street area. Her parents were said to be Hezekiah Shargool and Eliza Chivas. Hezekiah "made his mark" which for a Shargool was surprising as they all seemed to be well educated. I have so far not found this couple in the 1881 census or anywhere else!
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Hello SamaraDan,
Still plodding away with this. I came across a Hezekiah Shall in the 1891 census. A boarder aged 54 , a chain maker, born Walsall Staffordshire. RG12/ 2253/ 66 p 43.
Regards
David
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Interesting,viddavid, so he might not have been a Shargool after all, although the father of the baby was called Hezekiah Shargool. Not a very usual name. Thank you for giving me food for thought. Hezekiah couldn't write his name so that might have been someone's guess about his name. I haven't been looking at genealogy for some time but these problems do stay around until they're solved. All the best to your own research.
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My thoughts on Ernest's parentage due to the list of people who shared accommodation is that one of the Irish men was Ernest's father due to the DNA showing 29.1% Irish Scottish, and Welsh DNA the rest is English 50% and Scandinavian the remainder. If there is Irish DNA in it to that extent then somewhere he had strong Irish origins and seeing the races involved in the people in that house I would go for one of them as the father. But what of the claim she was married to Austin before my grandfather Ernest or the youngest Ann or Arthur were born.
To surmise, the situation looks very dubious, she seems to be drifting between men, and I imagine a sort of um an unstable person, who had children accidentally, or based on trust of one of these men. It would be different if she had one but three!!!! she must have thought that man was going to hang around unless she was truly fickle. Then hiding behind this man Austin after she had three children, after all who put her name down in that census saying the father was Austin, was he in fact always the father, but wouldn't commit. I don't think so, I think more likely its one of the Irish men, who let her down. Then, Austin didn't want to take them on Ernest, Arthur and Anne, and they ended up boarding in Birmingham and then in the workhouse.
Has anyone ever considered they might be the by product of an Itinerant Irishman?? has anyone looked up the records if there are any on that basis.
Based on the DNA we think that Wilson is the father, because the amount of Irish DNA in my match would have to be accounted for by Ernest's father most likely being Irish and as they said in the records Scottish also, which is stated. All the Scandinavian names have son on the end
The DNA was 18% Scandinavian so Wilson for the Irish Scottish reference and the son on the end of his name, it fits. Maybe a search about him would come up with something.
The other thing which puzzles me is Anne what happened to her, did she die, did she marry have children if so her predecessors must be out there somewhere. ( my husband as you will gather from the name Mahoney is Irish and put together these proposals incidentally). There has to be a lot of Irish Scottish Welsh blood in Ernest and Arthur for the percentage to come out so high.