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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wicklow => Topic started by: RoryT on Sunday 09 March 08 19:10 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone have the above on their Tree. I have both families married to Peppard/Pepper ancestors.
RoryT
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Hi RoryT,
I'm descended from the Jones of Woodside, Hacketstown and being based in England, I'm struggling to get further back than Great-Grands, so your post is really intriguing and I hope you might be able to help me. Here's what I know so far - does it link to any of your finds?
My great-grandfather was William Empson Jones of Woodside, Hacketstown who married Agnes Eva Allan in Greenock in 1883 (I've got much further back on her line.)
William's father was Robert P Jones, farmer (deceased at the time of the wedding) - "P" possibly Patton or Patten, sadly doesn't look like Peppard on the marriage entry. William's mother was an Empson.
Robert P Jones is listed as the landowner of Woodside in 1876.
Griffiths Valuations 1848-1864 lists a Sheppard Jones as the landowner of Woodside - Robert's father / uncle / older brother perhaps?
IGI has a record of a Shepherd Jones born (abt. 1780) marrying a Dorothea Smith born (abt. 1784) in 1805, all in Kildare, but I can't corroborate this anywhere else.
Do you recognise any of these names?
Thanks
RufyGH
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Hello RufyGH
I have been researching William Empson Jones and Agnes Eva Allan from whom my wife descends. I understand his (WEJ) parents were Robert Patton Jones and Eliza Empson. His (WEJ) daughter, Eva Janes Jones (6 Nov 1884-27 Mar 1923) married Richard Fitzgerald Jones (same surname but no other known relationship) of Dublin who was a son of Dublin City Councillor, Richard Jones, and Illinois-born Margaret Fitzgerald. Eva Jane Jones had 10 siblings and I have some information on each. At least 4 of her siblings had children but only 3 were survived by children. I look forward to correspondence. WEJ (Popop) and his wife (Grangran) were buried at the church cemetery at Clonmore. I would love to correspond. I live near Toronto Canada.
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Hi cumminswr,
How interesting to hear from someone new after posting this message nearly 3 years ago!
I have done quite a bit more research since then and if your wife is a grand-daughter of Eva Jane Jones, I have at least 5 candidates for whom she could be courtesy of a hand written family tree from the 1950's probably via my grandmother Dorothy Grant Jones, Eva's sister! My Aunt Millicent is still alive and remembers so much - perhaps your wife knows her or met her?
Thank you for the information regarding the burial place of (the original) PopPop and GranGran, I did not know this. Did your wife know that Agnes Eva Allen was Scottish? I have traced her line back to the end of the 18th century in Scotland. The Jones line in Ireland is proving much more difficult of course. Do you know anything more about the Jones' of Woodside? Did Robert Patton Jones have siblings and I wonder where his middle name comes from? The Empsons were from Kilkenny.
Would love to correspond further, but unfortunately we cannot use the personal message facility yet (sorry RoryT!)
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Dear RufyGH I believe I have identified you on the family tree. I believe your father was known as Billy. I do not know the names of your siblings. I was told that your family holds the family bible of the Woodside Jones. We have indeed visited your most hospitable aunt and uncle when they lived in Belfast.
Yes the 1901 and 1911 census data for Agnes Eva Allan-Jones show that she had been born in Scotland.
I know little about Robert Patton Jones. I have a list of his 9 children: 1 William Empson Jones; 2 Richard Jones; 3 Henry Jones; 4 Frederick Jones; 5 Joseph Jones; 6 Thomas Jones; 7 John Jones; 8 Dorothy Jones; 9 Elizabeth Jones. I have no data for any of these except WEJ. I cannot send personal messages but I can receive them.
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The PM systems becomes fully available to you when you have three posts, which you have now. RufyGH needs one more...
Shane
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Ok - hopefully this counts as my 3rd post and I can now send messages!
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Rory,
A real shot in the dark here. I've recently been putting our family tree together of Joneses from Baltinglass and have become stuck in or about 1838. It appears that it is about this time that a John Jones shows up. While I have yet to find the evidence to support my contention, I believe that this John is a brother of your Shepherd from wood side. My John had a son born in 1814 and called him Shepherd. This Shepherd I believe also shows up on Griffith valuation of 1852 .
The reason I believe these Shepherds to be different is that your shepherd shows up in tithe record of 1823. Too young for my shepherd.
I have my shepherd married to a dorethea with a daughter and son.
Hope this raises your interest.
Glen
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Hi Glen,
As you can see from my earlier posts I am also interested in Sheppard Jones of Woodside, Co. Carlow and I've done a bit more research & would be interested to see this fits in with your research.
According to my ancestor Robert Patton Jones' 1852 wedding record his father was Sheppard Jones of Woodside. Robert's death record in 1878 has him born about 1819 but I have not found a baptism yet. Therefore I concluded that the Sheppard Jones listed in the 1823/26 tithe records for 3 Hacketstown townlands and the S. Jones, Esq. of Woodside listed in Samuel Lewis's 1837 Topographical Index was his father. As stated in my earlier post there used to be an uncorroborated record on the old IGI for a Sheppard Jones marrying a Dorothea Smith in 1805 but this has since been removed in the new version of the site.
However, I did find a death announcement in the Freeman's Journal in 1873 for a Dora Jones, widow of a Sheppard Jones of Newtown-Saunders, Baltinglass aged 95 so ba1778? This also suggests husband Sheppard died sometime before 1873. I think he is still listed in Griffiths' Valuation for both Woodside and Newtown-Saunders townlands in 1852 and then his son Robert is listed as the principal farmer at Woodside in 1876 landowwners records, so I think this all fits but I would have to find a death record for Sheppard to be sure. Who is the Sheppard Jones you find born to John in 1814 that you have as a candidate for the Griffiths records?
Mind you it's not as uncommon a name as you might have thought - I also found a Shephard Jones married to a Dorothea Anne whose daughter Mary Ellen birth is registered in Baltinglass in January 1865 and a Shepherd Jones, widower, marrying a Matilda Nicholson in Monkstown, Dublin in August 1865? Same man?! No death record for a Dorothea Jones but this is just at the start of civil registration so might not have been recorded? These Sheppard Jones's would have to have been born sometime in the 1840's or before?
I too also found a record of a John Jones of Woodside for Hacketstown Graveyard that seemed to suggest he died in his 99th(!) year in 1830 making him born about 1731? Sheppard's grandfather perhaps?
Can you tell me a bit more about your Sheppard Jones=Dorothea marriage and their children please to see if it fits with any of my research ideas?
Thanks
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Hi RufyGH,
My details work backwards somewhat in respect of Shepherd Jones Newtown Saunders. He was a great great great uncle of mine. He died in 1900 and left the property to his son Thomas. The records in family search suggest he was 86 and suggest a birth year of 1814.
The date of death for this Shepherd appears correct from the title deeds I have inspected and my great grandfather bought the property from Thomas who was unable to service the loan or unable to pay the inheritance taxes.
Correctly or incorrectly I assumed that the Shepherd on the Griffith Valuations of 1852 was one and the same. It also appears from my research that these Jones were Methodist.
The methodist church in Baltinglass was leased in 1833 and one of the two trustees was a John Jones of Newtown Saunders. It is stated in the Baltinglass Chronicles (Author Paul Gorry) that by 1848, John Jones assigned the premsis to Shepherd Jones of Newtown Saunders. From this I have surmised that Shepherd is a son of John's. This is not as yet supported by any facts.
Finally, just to confuse matters, I have family anicdotal stories suggesting that my Shepherd also had a boot and army supply business. Not sure if this is of any relevance or confuses matters.
Good of you to respond and i look forward to your thoughts on the above.
Glen
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Hi all. Along with GSJ, I have been doing some research on the woodside Joneses.
Today I was at the cemetery in Hacketstown, but I need to go back to see if I can get more info off the headstones. They are quite weathered but in parts readable.
One stone has the inscription saying
Erected by Robert Patton Jones to the memory of his father Shepard Jones Esq Woodside Hacketstown who departed this life on 27/2/1864 (The 6 is not clear)aged 77 years.
Shepard F Jones died 26/2/1876 aged 17
Robert P Jones died 12/6/1878 age 59
? A Jones ?0/8/1881 age 16
Headstone 2 says
Sacred to the memory of Sarah Jones ?-? Daughter to John Jones of Newtown Saunders, Co Wicklow who was born on the ?? 1825 (Not sure of the 2) and departed this life on the ?
The 3rd headstone is very hard to read but mentions John Jones and his wife Mary Disney Jones. I do have reference to their marriage in 1810. There are other names but for the moment unreadable.
There is a 4th stone in a different part of the cemetery to a Francis Jones. He has never cropped up in my research before so don't know if he is related. There is also a son Francis mentioned.
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This is the grave of William Empson Jones in Clonmore, Co Carlow
(http://imageshack.us/a/img824/2707/wejonesclonmore.jpg)
This is the Grave of Shepard Jones and Robert Patton Jones in Hacketstown, Co Carlow
(http://imageshack.us/a/img7/333/shepardjoneshacketstown.jpg)
I am trying to find out more about a Dora Jones Born about 1842. She shows up as a relative of Mary Ellen Whyte nee Jones Daughter of Shepard Jones (D1900) of Baltinglass in the 1901 Census) This Shepard Jones wife who was Dorothea (D4/11/1900) From a death notice in the Kildare Observer. She died at the address of her Daughter and is buried in the family plot in Hacketstown. I couldn't find this plot. It would be nice to find if this Dora has appeared on any one elses radar.
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Hi Charlie,
I posted the following reply to your post on the 3rd but it never got through, so posting it again...
Thank you very much for sharing the fruits of your labours in the long grass! Here's what I can add to the inscriptions;
Robert Patton Jones married Eliza Empson in 1852 so the Shepard F Jones sharing the grave with Robert's father could be their son (ba1859?) This would fit a gap between children I know of from a handwritten family tree I inherited from my father but this Shepard doesn't appear on it? Not always completely accurate I know (there are other discrepancies on it.) Only ordering the death certificate would solve the mystery I suppose, as his death is registered in Shillelagh in 1876.
The other occupant of the grave is Ellen Anne Jones - both her Aug 1881 burial record and that of Robert P Jones are online via http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie Her estimated birth year of 1864/5 could make her a daughter of Robert & Eliza but again she doesn't appear on the family tree but there is a baptism for a daughter named Martha in May 1865? (see FamilySearch.org for named parents.) I couldn't find a reliable entry in the death indexes for her though that matched with an August burial?
I can't add anything to what you found on the other 2 headstones, but the name Disney did crop up in a message to me from GSJ and he definitely has land records linked to Newtown Saunders - so he may see this and reply too.
The Francis Jones may have been a contemporary/relation of Shepard Jones senior as that name appears above his in a list of Carlow voters in 1837 (see http:://www.igp-web/Carlow) and I found someone named Francis Jones listed as a cloth dealer there in Pigot's 1824 directory.
The only online parish records I could find for Hacketstown only go back as far as 1878 it appears - any ideas if earlier ones exist in Carlow archives?
I'm sure that there are definite links between all these Jones's but as ever with such a common surname it's so difficult to be sure unless you reconstruct all the families!
Do let me know if you find any more!
RE: Headstone pictures - thank you very much, these are all ancestors of mine, so lovely to see them.
I'll need to have a bit more of a think about the Dora Jones you found as the one I found was for 1873 (see earlier posts)
Thanks
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The only online parish records I could find for Hacketstown only go back as far as 1878 it appears - any ideas if earlier ones exist in Carlow archives?
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The RCB Index of records only shows details of baptisms and burials for this parish back to 1877 and 1878 respectively. Marriages go back earlier to 1845 due to being included in civil records.
Shane
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Hi Rufygh
Firstly gsj is a brother of mine. We are working together on the tree. We have quite a bit on John and Mary Jones and at the moment think this John Jones and Shepard Jones are possibly brothers. This is unconfirmed at this point. Dates we have make them the same generation and I can confirm they have the same address.
The Joneses of Hacketstown do seem to have some link with Kilkenny as John and Mary were Married in Kilkenny city. Marys family moved from Bagenalstown to Kilkenny sometime before 1810.
If you like pictures then here is one of the 3 grave stones in Hacketstown.
From left to right its John & Mary Jones/ Sarah Jones/ Robert Patton Jones
(http://imageshack.us/a/img202/1386/3jonesgraves.jpg)
Francis Jones grave can be seen in the top left corner of the photo. It is the same type of stone slab as the 3 in the foreground.
I do have 2 more pictures of Jones graves in Clonmore. They are more recent though.
I may have access to more information in the near future and I will keep you updated if I do.
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Hi Charlie,
Thanks very much for the new photo - as the graves are all side by side with the same name, can we confidently assume a family connection do you think?
The Kilkenny link you found is very interesting as Robert Patton Jones's wife, Eliza(beth) Empson was the daughter of a Joseph Empson of Kilkenny and they married in what I assume is her parish church, St. Mary's, Kilkenny in 1852. Joseph appears to have been a very significant landlord in Kilkenny according to Griffiths Valuations of the time and assuming there are not mutiple Joseph Empson's - it does appear to be a relatively uncommon name.
I've got some estate sale papers that I downloaded from FindMyPast Ireland that mention several generations of Jones's in this part of Carlow which I'll have a go at transcribing and interpreting or do you have this information already - your brother GSJ mentioned land papers he had in an earlier post.
Thanks
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The John Jones married to Mary was also a Land Agent primarily linked with Sir Ralph Howard of Middlesex but the difficulty here is that John Jones is such a popular name. We can confirm some of the land he had in 1850s but not all.
Interesting you mention St Marys church in Kilkenny as that is where John and Mary were married.
The papers we have are original lease agreements for land in Baltinglass.
I have also found Francis Jones in the Griffins Valuation on town land which borders Woodside in Hacketstown.
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A small update on the Joneses from Woodside. Early on in our research we found a reference to a John Jones who died on the 20/4/1830, his age was given as 99 years and was buried in Hacketstown cemetery. This came from a book, John Ryan's "The History And Antiquities Of The County Of Carlow" and was published in 1833.
It was only a short but tantalising possibility to an earlier generation of Joneses in the area. Now I have found confirmation in another publication that places this man as being from Woodside. I found in a Wesleyan Methodist magazine from 1830 that he passed away at the home of his son in Newtown Saunders while on a short visit. This son is also John Jones, my G X3 grandfather. It also stated that he had been a follower of the Methodist faith for 46 years.
While this still doesn't confirm 100% a link between the Baltinglass Joneses and the Woodside Joneses it does bring the possibility very close. I would like to see this latest John Jones B1731 with a son Sheppard Jones.
I have also just finished reading Robert Leech's "The Jones Family in Ireland" written in 1886. It's an interesting read but I haven't found any link to Woodside. By the way it's available as free download.
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Hello. I am ver new to this site but reading below there appears some links my side. John Jones is my 3 x grandfather. This is the Johns Jones that died in 1836 and married Mary. My 2 x grandfather was William son of John and Mary. I have struggled beyond Thus John to find anything else. I have some detail on the land John owned as there was a dispute over a will of a subsequent ancestor of John which I am happy to provide but may be known. Does anyone have information easy to share on Mary and John please?
Thanks
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Hi MBarryB
Nice to hear from you. Do you mind me asking the address or even just the nearest town for your John & Mary as there were a number of John and Marys around that time. If memory serves me right they were in Rathvilly and Tullow among others and so far we don't have a link. We have a John(1) who died in 1830 and his son John(2) who died in the late 1850s. Neither we are aware had a son William but of coarse that isn't conclusive. We do have a John(3) born about 1812 but we have no records beyond his inclusion in a deed for 1822 which mentions his age as 10. It would be very interesting if this John(3) is your 3Xgrandfather.
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Thanks Charlie J
OK, so looks like we may be different John and Mary Jones possibly? My information is more on death dates I am afraid but here goes. My John Jones would have lived in Holdenstown Upper / Lower. As well as having land here he had land in in Man O'War (I think near Dunlavin), Clough and Baltinglass East (I think in the town). He had two sons John and William and two daughters Elizabeth and Mary. John Senior died in 1836 and his wife Mary died in 1860. Mary (daughter) appears to have died in 145 August 1837. Does any of this make sense?
Thanks
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I have also the date of death of John Jones (Junior) as 26th July 1837.
Thanks
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Hi MBarryB
I'm not sure if this helps but I viewed a Grave at Kiltegan cemetery which might be some use.
It says
"Of Holdenstown
Erected by Robert Jones in memory of his son (Esall?) Jones who departed this life 15/2/1839 aged 11 years. Also a child who died young and also his son William Jones who departed this life 4/9/1847 aged 23 years and to the memory of the said Robert Jones. He departed this life March 22 1849 and also of William Carpender of Holdenstown 14/8/1855."
There is another line on the headstone but is under the soil so I didn't disturb it.
They may not be in your direct line but they may be cousins. Interestingly there are still Carpenders in that townland.
I should have reference to this line of Jones though I'm not aware of a link at the moment.
There is another grave stone for an Edward Jones here too.
I know it's no help to your initial question, I will look through my notes to see if there is anything of use.
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Thanks Charlie J. Will do some separate digging. So I guess you and I have different John Jones and Mary jones by the look of it. Hard to get to the next level from here.
Have often seen Shep Jones separately and wondered about a link but nothing there I can find.
Take care
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You are probably looking at heading to the Registry of Deeds at Henrietta Street in Dublin for more information on your John and Mary.
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Thought this may be of interest?
Boston Times 1845
OF ROBERT JONES, from Holinstown, Baltinglas, (County Wicklow).
Landed New York 6 years last February, he was at Oak Mill 4 years since.
Information will be thankfully received by Hannah Jones of Rockville, Ct.
Hope it may help someone. I came across it while looking for my Wicklow Hawkins families.
Jill
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Hi
I am starting to research the Jones side of my family tree from Baltinglass. I was provided with this information .. My great great great grandfather was John Jones who married Eliza Susan from Blessington. They had four children: John Jones born 1837, Harriet Sophia Jones 1843, Dorcas 1843, Edward 1844 all born in Holdenstown in Baltinglass. Also, Johns father was James Jones and his mother Alice Smith.
Charlie you mentioned you were looking for a Dora Jones around 1842 and wondered if it could be the Dorcas above?
If anyone can throw some light on the above it would be strongly appreciated.
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Hi Carhoglucan
Sorry about not getting back to you sooner.
We haven't been able to discover a link between our Hacketstown/Baltinglass Jones and your Holdenstown Jones though I do have some information on more recent generations.
It's interesting how some names are repeated from our line. Alice Smith interests me. Do you know where she is from. We have a Dorothea Smith married to Sheppard Jones.
I was also told recently that my grandfather used to go drinking with an Alfie Jones from Holdenstown. The house is still there and lived in.
There is also a Robert Jones buried in Kiltegan cemetery. He died in 1849 aged 49. + children and other.
There is also an Edward Jones and wife 1861.
The Dora I'm looking for is Methodist, does this still fit with your Dorcas?
There are a number of Jones families in the area which will confuse your research so you will need to check all links carefully.
I will need to check my notes for more information.
Regards Charlie
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Charlie
I have since discovered that my Dorcas married Henry Fennell. Children William, Annie, Robert, Elizabeth, Sarah, Joseph...Her sister, my gt gt grandmother converted to Catholicism in 1863 so may have been methodist. I don't know if this has any relevance to you.
Regarding Alice Smith. .I'm sorry I have no other information as yet.
Caroline
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I just came across this post. Alfie Jones was my grandfather. I am also researching my Jones ancestry. I have a John Jones married to MaryAnn Caroline Somers she was always known as Caroline. Wondering if there are any links here?
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Hi rufygh, Charliej and shane147 etc
I am new to this website and by chance googled Robert p Jones and came up trumps! I am a descendent of Constance Jones her father was Henry Jones .. His father was Robert p Jones ... His father Sheppard Jones and his father was I think John Jones ... I am very excited to find others with similar lineage and am keen to find out more... I have some documents that you will be interested in... Hope this message finds the right people
Regards
Sally
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Not sure if I'm doing this correctly but would like to make contact with Jones family connected with Robert p Jones .. Can I private message?
Regards
Sally
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Hi Sally,
I've responded to your private message this morning, so do get in touch as I think we have more information for you.
Regards
Ruth
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Hi Ruth
I sent you an email... did you get it?
Regards
Sally
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Richard Empson,Apothecary,Parliament St Kilkenny died 1876 had a sister Eliza married to Robert Jones of Woodside
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/wr/007604239_00096.pdf
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG6X-4D4
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Thanks daithi will follow that up
Regards
Sally
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LorWri
Just looking through posts and noticed your message. I'm trying to find my John Jones family from Holdenstown, Baltinglass. My great grandmother was Harriet Sophia Jones who married John Pepper in 1863. She converted to Catholicism to marry him (there is a suspicion of her being Methodist). Her father is names John Jones labourer from Holdenstown on the marriage record. I've no idea who this John Jones is married to but wondering does Harriet Sophia Jones ring any bells with your family tree?
Caroline
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Are any of the long ago posters to this thread (RufyGH, cumminswr, Gsj, Charlie J, Sally mcfarlane) still paying attention? If so, hello, probable cousins! I would love to connect with you! I am descended from Jane Jones Condell, born 1780-81, daughter of John Jones of Hacketstown. She named one of her sons John Shepherd Condell.
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Hi CDN
I haven't been on in a while. I hope you see this.
Your Jane is curious to me as it doesn't fit with what we know but I look forward to resolving your Jane in our version of our tree.
Hope to hear from you.
regards
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Hi there haven’t done any research for a while now… will get my notes out and see if I can make connection.. my jones family left hacketstown around 1895 and bought a farm in gorey
Regards sally
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Further to my posts above..as I have further information now. Harriet Sophia Jones was Church of Ireland. I found a record on her conversion to Catholicism which states her parents were John Jones and Susan Jones of Holdenstown. I was also told by genealogist Fiona Fitzsimons that John and Susan Jones are buried in the Church of Ireland graveyard in Rathvilly. Susan Jones died 25/11/1847 and John died 22/12/1865.
Having looked through Harriet's children's baptism records the following names cropped up:
Edward Keogh, Margaret Abbey, Thomas Killian, Elizabeth White, Margaret Flinter, John Byrne, Rose Darcy, Richard Ovington. I am particularly interested if anyone has an Ovington and Jones connection.
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Charlie J,
What a delightful surprise to hear from you! I am eager to collaborate and will consider collaboration valuable even if it disproves what I thought I knew. My understanding of Irish records, place names, etc. is far from expert, so please don't be over-polite about disagreeing/correcting. That said, here is more about Jane and evidence by which I'm connecting my ancestor to yours.
In addition to the son named John Shepherd (as spelled on his grave marker), she had another named William J. with strong indication the "J." stood for Jones. Indexed marriage records list Jane Jones and Thomas Condell, married in 1801. A newspaper marriage announcement from May 1801 says Miss Jones, the daughter of John Jones, Esq. of Hacketstown, married Thomas Condell from Carnew. I'm interpreting Hacketstown and Carnew as parish names here. A tithe applotment record for Eagle Hill, Hacketstown, Carlow dated November 1823 shows Jane Condell occupying land right next to that occupied by John Jones and Shepard Jones. July 1824, Jane and 10 of her children emigrated to the USA, where her branch has remained, as far as I'm aware. I haven't found records for Thomas or one additional daughter, but they did end up here, too, and it seems reasonable to believe that Thomas was already gone in November 1823. Deed memorial 490515, Book 717, page 379, having to do with Aunt Rachel Barker Marks bequeathing land to John Jones the younger, lists Thomas Condell as a witness.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
Have you figured out exactly how the older Shepard (the one on the 1823 tithe applotment) fits in? He seems like a brother to Jane and the younger John, but I have found nothing to confirm that.
There is another witness to the deed mentioned above whose name I can't make out. Possibly another brother-in-law? Do you know anything about that?
An 1838 newspaper death announcement says, "February 21, at her son's residence, Newtown, Baltinglass, in the 99th year of her age, Mrs. John Jones, relict of the late John Jones, Esq., of Woodside, Hacketstown." Do you have anything to corroborate or contradict that being our grandmother?
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Occurred to me that I may have been unclear. I think that Jane was the daughter of the *oldest* John Jones discussed here. She died July 9, 1839 "in the 59th year of her age," so was born 1780-81.
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Sally,
Looking back at your posts, I see, "I am a descendent of Constance Jones her father was Henry Jones .. His father was Robert p Jones ... His father Sheppard Jones and his father was I think John Jones." I believe that your John and my Jane were brother and sister. Considering how far along the rest of you were before I even knew enough to find this thread, I assumed you had already seen the deed I referenced above, but if not, do take a look. It's a good one! I hope this link will take you there directly:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-3QS7-H?i=173&cat=185720
(beginning at the bottom of the right hand page)
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carhoglucan,
I don't quite understand how/if you connect, but in my collection of puzzle pieces that don't (yet?!) fit, I have a deed between Thomas Condell and John Jones. Turned out to be right names, but wrong people for me. That John Jones was from Holdenstown, though, so perhaps you want it for your collection, if it isn't there already. It has a lot more information about Condells than Joneses, but may hold a clue for you, too. If I understand, John Jones won a judgment against Thomas Condell, so possibly there are court records, too? It is memorial #286 in Book 16 1835.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-LK32?i=191&cat=185720
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CDN Many thanks for that. Every little bit helps. I will have a read through it and see does it throw anymore light on things. There were so many John Jones's in the area. I'm very slowly getting there i.e. I now have the Holdenstown and Rathvilly connection. Thanks again. Caroline
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Hi cdn
Sorry for taking so long to answer. I haven't looked into our tree in so long I wanted to refresh my memory before assigning what we know to a reply. I have added my answers into your post in brackets.
Charlie J,
What a delightful surprise to hear from you! I am eager to collaborate and will consider collaboration valuable even if it disproves what I thought I knew. My understanding of Irish records, place names, etc. is far from expert, so please don't be over-polite about disagreeing/correcting. That said, here is more about Jane and evidence by which I'm connecting my ancestor to yours.
(We also have a Jane Jones B1793 who married a George Browne 1811 and died 1874 who I have as a possible daughter to John Jones B1731. She had many links to Shepherd Jones B1814 son of John Jones B1781. Unfortunately a few years ago I lost most of my research, so not sure if I had concrete evidence how she is related. Fortunately most records were recovered plus many new records found. I think we can take it your Jane is the correct daughter of John Jones B1731 and I will have to try to resolve how my Jane is related and that's OK, it's all part of the journey.)
In addition to the son named John Shepherd (as spelled on his grave marker), she had another named William J. with strong indication the "J." stood for Jones. Indexed marriage records list Jane Jones and Thomas Condell, married in 1801. A newspaper marriage announcement from May 1801 says Miss Jones, the daughter of John Jones, Esq. of Hacketstown, married Thomas Condell from Carnew. I'm interpreting Hacketstown and Carnew as parish names here. A tithe applotment record for Eagle Hill, Hacketstown, Carlow dated November 1823 shows Jane Condell occupying land right next to that occupied by John Jones and Shepard Jones. July 1824, Jane and 10 of her children emigrated to the USA, where her branch has remained, as far as I'm aware. I haven't found records for Thomas or one additional daughter, but they did end up here, too, and it seems reasonable to believe that Thomas was already gone in November 1823. Deed memorial 490515, Book 717, page 379, having to do with Aunt Rachel Barker Marks bequeathing land to John Jones the younger, lists Thomas Condell as a witness.
(The name Shepherd(and all it's spelling variations) would most likely come from the previous owner of Woodside. A man called Anthony Shepherd. Aunt Rachel Barker Marks is believed to be a sister to Janes Jones nee Barker. There is another sister too but her name escapes me. Also I do believe Rachel and Thomas do appear in some documents as witness to a number of dealings.)
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
Have you figured out exactly how the older Shepard (the one on the 1823 tithe applotment) fits in? He seems like a brother to Jane and the younger John, but I have found nothing to confirm that.
(This Shephard Jones B1779 is a brother of John Jones B1781. His grave is shown in a photo earlier in this thread.)
There is another witness to the deed mentioned above whose name I can't make out. Possibly another brother-in-law? Do you know anything about that?
An 1838 newspaper death announcement says, "February 21, at her son's residence, Newtown, Baltinglass, in the 99th year of her age, Mrs. John Jones, relict of the late John Jones, Esq., of Woodside, Hacketstown." Do you have anything to corroborate or contradict that being our grandmother?
(This is Jane Jones nee Barker (Father Joseph Barker D1788) married to John Jones B1731. This makes her DOB circa 1740. Her Son was John Jones B1781 of Newtown Saunders and this is where I grew up. Also a photo of the grave can be seen earlier in this thread)
I have not, so far, found a concrete link to the Holdenstown/Rathvilly Jones before the mid to late 1800s but suspect there is one. It just needs the right document to be found. I hope this useful in some way. For me further research needs to be done in records offices which do not have material online. I just haven't had the time to do so.
Are you living in the US?
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Yes, Charlie, I am indeed in the US, so sadly will be no help at all getting to those documents not available online. I fear I'll likely be a bit of a disappointment as far as contributing to what you already know. You were far ahead of me when I first came across this thread and still are. I found the magazine obit for John Jones B1731 and the book describing his grave marker, so thanks for those in addition to my thanks for your answers to my questions. Your grave marker pictures were already unavailable, so I was glad you had transcribed the information from them.
I have not come across Jane Jones Browne B1793. For me, being another Jane and the age of Jane Barker Jones at her birth argue against her being a sister to my Jane, but not to the point I'd say it's impossible. I wonder if she may be in the next generation. Do you think the John Jones and Jane Barker who married in 1769 are "ours"? If so, that leaves a lot of room for yet-to-be-discovered (by me, anyway) aunts and uncles, perhaps even a previous marriage. Maybe she's the daughter of an older son of John Jones B1731?
I had wondered if Shepherd might turn up as a surname farther back. Interesting that you found a connected Shepherd! Not, as yet genealogically connected, though? Is the place where Joneses are living called "Eagle Hill" in the tithe records and in some deeds, I think, the same place called "Woodside" elsewhere? If not, can you explain the distinction better than what I've been able to figure out on my own? Rachel Barker Marks being a sister to Jane Barker Jones and Joseph their father was my interpretation, too. I don't think I've seen documents to which Rachel was a witness, and the only one I saw witnessed by Thomas Condell was the one I referenced that connected him to the Joneses and Barkers. I do recall seeing Thomas Barker's name, but I don't think I'd worked out how he was connected when I had to make myself stop because I was acting too obsessed to do anything else.
I grew up near where Jane's grandson lived and his property is still in our family. I love that I have pictures of people separated by five generations in what is recognizably the same front yard, but your Newtown Saunders roots are more impressive!
If you are adding Jane to your tree, you would probably like to have some of the source documentation I have for her. I'll try to PM you a bit more, but a marriage record is available online here:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WG49-G13Z
and the ship's passenger list when she and her children emigrated here:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K8C9-ZWB
As I mentioned, she had an additional daughter who also emigrated: Elizabeth B1805. The older girls' ages are a bit off on the passenger list. (I wonder if something was easier if they were all under 21?) Other documents indicate daughter Jane was born 1802 and Sarah in 1803. I have traced all the children to their deaths in the US, so they were out of the mix in Ireland after 1824. The only one for whom I have nothing explicitly stating a relationship is Joseph, but dates, places, business connections, etc. make me fairly confident he was Joseph Dodd Condell, so I would be alert to any Dodds who seemed connected. If that ever turns up, it could be on the Condell side, though.
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Hi CDN
I will email you those pictures.
Jane Jones nee Brown B1793, as I do not have any record of her parents I will have to do some research to locate her, correctly, on our Tree.
The only other sibling to your Jane Jones B1780/81 and my John Jones B1781 is Shephard Jones B1779 and married in 1805 so is unlikely to be the father of Jane B1793.
The years between John Jones and Jane Barker marriage to the birth of their first child has always been a puzzle. Possibly child mortality is the most likely consideration.
Eagle hill and Woodside are townlands next to each other and just south of a town called Hacketstown, Co. Carlow and still exist as does the family home at Woodside, though we are reasonably sure the original house was destroyed in the 1798 rebellion in Ireland. I think there is some documentation regarding this, including compensation claims. I will send you some links to the townlands.
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Eagle hill and Woodside are townlands next to each other and just south of a town called Hacketstown, Co. Carlow and still exist as does the family home at Woodside....
Woodside townland in the in civil parish of Hacketstown.
https://www.townlands.ie/carlow/rathvilly/hacketstown/hacketstown/woodside/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2202875#map=13/52.8579/-6.5571
Two Eaglehill townlands, one in the civil parish of Hacketstown, the other in the civil parish of Clonmore.
https://www.townlands.ie/carlow/rathvilly/hacketstown/hacketstown/eaglehill/
https://www.townlands.ie/carlow/rathvilly/clonmore/clonmore/eaglehill/
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Hi
It's been awhile. I decided to go down the DNA route and I now have a kit on My Heritage, Ancestry and GedMatch. Have any of you done the same? The Gedmatch has provided me with DNA matches to more families in The Glen, Knockanarrigan and also in Donard, Wicklow. Caroline