RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: AshkeJ on Wednesday 12 March 08 13:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi There,
I am looking into the family of a friend of my mother's who lives in France and is not very computer literate!
Her family name is Boswell, of the Gypsy/Romany Boswells. Her father was Algar Boswell, born 1915 in Ilkeston. She had always assumed a link back to Trafalgar Boswell, son of Sylvester Boswell. I did a bit of research on the Boswells and have sketched out a tree of the descendants of Shadrach Boswell.
This morning Algar's birth certificate arrived showing his parents were Edward MacKenzie Boswell and Emily Edith Moore formerly Yeomans, which is great. However, I can't seem to find much more on Edward MacKenzie!
I found a marriage for him in 1906 in the Basford District, but neither of the women on the page listed are Emily Edith!
Can anybody help with placing Edward MacKenzie Boswell into the grand scheme of the many branches of the Boswell family, please???
Many thanks!!
Dominic
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There are the following birth reg's
Edward MacKenzie Boswell
Jun qtr 1873
Derby
7b 472
and
Emily Edith yeomans
Mar qtr 1885
Derby
7b 620
Suz
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Hi Suz,
I am such an idiot. Thanks for those!! I'll have a look to see if they appear in any of the census returns!
I think I may have them in 1881 at 77 Napier St, Burton Upon Trent, Stafford, England
Josaiah BOSWELL Lodger (Head) M M 35 Derby, Derby, England Cutler & Grinder
Eldry BOSWELL Wife M F 30 Longton, Stafford, England Dressmaker
Edward BOSWELL Son M 8 Derby, Derby, England Scholar
Deonah BOSWELL Daur F 3 Derby, Derby, England Scholar
I think that it might be the correct family as Algar had a sister called Diona and a brother called Isaiah.
Can't seem to find anything else on the family though, although I do have a birth reg entry in the March Qtr of 1846 in the Chesterfield District in Derbyshire for Josiah Boswell.
Dominic
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I thought that may be the family (lodging with the Sheriff family)-especially with the Dionah as
There are these birth reg's
all mother's maiden name Yeomans
Mar qtr 1921
Derby
Isiah Boswell
7b 1175
Diona Boswell
Jun qtr 1924
Derby
7b 1037
William M Boswell
Mar qtr 1926
Derby
7b 954
maybe Edward and Edith Emily didn't marry until later - if Edward attended the reg he could have his name on birth certs
I have found 2 more Alga Boswells-one died age 1 yr -will give details in a mo - there may be some kind of connection -maye a family name?
Did a little digging on Emily Edith
she and another sibling were b Derby and then they moved to Sheffield with family
There is a marriage FreeBMD
Emily Edith yeomans
Jun qtr 1907 Sheffield
9c 868
there are 3 females and 2 males on page-neither of the males are Moores
but
Marriage
Jun qtr 1907
Sheffield Arthur Moore
9c 858
then there is a death
Arthur moore
age 20
Dec qr 1908
Sheffield
9c 630
of course this is all speculation -but could it be that Emily married and was widowed in a very short time -came back to Derby and that's how Algar came to be??
Suz
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Hi Dominic
It looks like your friend's "Algar Boswell" belongs to a different branch of the Boswell tree than the one you thought (Shadrack Line) – ie, he isn't the Trafalgar Boswell of Essex and Blackpool who was the ancestor of Gordon Boswell of the museum at Spalding.
According to a reference in Bob Dawson's "The Genealogy of the Romany Boswells" (published by the RTFHS but now out of print), Edward Mackenzie is the son of Isaiah Boswell and Eldorai Sheriff - which seems to tally with your census find, if you accept Isaiah as a close match with Josaiah. This Boswell line was associated mainly with Derbyshire, Staffs, Warwickshire, Cheshire, Lancs etc.
Sharon
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On the 1881 image (very difficult t read) I read (what is transcribed as Josaiah as "Asuiah" and what is transcribed as Eldry as "Elsin" or "Eldin"
So with Sharon's information it looks like the 1881 family is the correct one
Suz
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:D Well you know what they say about assume ........
Thank you both very much, Suz and Sharon! It is nice to actually get things right, isn't it?
Sharon, would you know how far back the Trafalgar line and the Isaiah line bifurcates? And is there any further information on the Isaiah line?
Many thanks once again!
Dominic
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1901
9 Bleach yard
Derby
Isiah boswell Head m 63 Gen lab mickleover Derbys
Elderi wife 50 Hobbis? Staffs
Phoebe Debwell?(Deverwell?) no relationshi given 5 Chilwell Notts
RG13 322 135 22
Suz
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maybe Edward and Edith Emily didn't marry until later - if Edward attended the reg he could have his name on birth certs
Actually, on Algar's birth certificate under Description of Informant it does give Edward M Boswell Father and E E Moore Mother. So, no, they weren't married at that point, and they obviously did go both together to register the birth.
Didn't twig on to that until just a moment ago! ::)
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1871
Hill Cliff lane
Ashborne
Derbys
Caravan 1
nelson Boswell Head 38 Travelling Grinder Swinnington Staffs
Jane wife 40 Selby Yorks
Luesa? daughter U 23 Repton Staffs
Sarah daughter U 21 Barton Notts
Elias son 16 Mickleover Debys
Emilie daughter 14Heol Derbys
Horace son 13 Mickleover Derbys
Charley son 8 Tutbury Staffs
(all family dittoed as being travelling Grinders)
Caravan 2
Sampson boswell Head m 44 travelling grinder Solsbury oxfordshire
Caroline wife 30 Mickleover Derbys
Vasta daughter 10 Mira leicestershire
Walter son 4 Takenal Derbys ( poss should be Ticknal)
Mary aunt W 65 Dunningham Lincs
Isaiah nephew mar 36 Micklover Derbys
RG10 3596 77 18
(I know this isaiah's age differs -but it seems his age differs census to census - 35 in 1881 and 63 in 1901 -there is a possible death for him which puts him b. 1839)
Suz
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1861
Beggarlee
greasley parish
Notts
(just down the road from where I am-still occasionally have travellers there today)
address given as "Gypsies"
Rhoda Boswell head W 50 Household manager Norfolk
Samson son U 30 Cutler Lincs
Lucretia daughter U 27 Staffs
Dillinda daughter U 24 Warwicks
Susanna Granddaughter 6 Derbys
Mary Visitor U 55 Lincs
Isaiah neice? (male) U 26 Brazier and Cutler Mickleover Derbys
Emma widow 24 Belper Derbys
Eliza neice 23 Repton Derby
Samintury? neice 4 Newall Derby
RG9 2433 7 8
wondering if mary b. Lincs was maybe Isaiah's mother
Suz
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Aha!
On the IGI earlier I found the baptism for Sampson Boswell in Warwickshire, son of Nathaniel Boswell and Rodey. Could Rhoda be the same Rodey?
Hmmm whilst the mother of your nephew isn't your aunt, I wonder if it's the same Mary in both the 1861 and the 1871 cesus returns?
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I wondered if it was the same mary -looks a possibility - maybe the nephew relationship referred to Isiah being Sampsons mother (who wasn't with them on that census)'s nephew Sounds complicated hope you know what I mean
Found an 1841 census entry -very vague -but may be some connection
1841
Blagrove Lane
Littleover
mickloeover
Derbys
Moses Boswell 55 Gypsy
James 50
Female 40
Female 30
Female 25
Female 20 male 6
Female 4
Female 3
all written as Not known Boswell
HO107 189 3 3
Don't suppose it will help much -but as i found it thought I'd post!
Suz
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Hi
Again in Bob's book: he gives the father and mother of Isaiah Boswell as Moses Boswell (? died Dec qtr 1855) and Mary aka Trinity or Pehanet (? died March qtr 1858, Rotherham, as 'Pysannet'). So Suz's last ref of Moses is very pertinent.
There's also another Yeomans link here: according to Bob, Moses had a first wife named Esther and by her a son called Henry (bp 1826, Sutton on the Hill, Derbyshire). Henry's wife/partner was a Mary Ann Yeomans.
The narrative on this branch of the Boswells (the Black Jack Line) goes over many pages. Dates aren't always included because some of the content comes from sources like the Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society, where articles were often based on oral history.
Bob doesn't attempt to link the different Boswell lines into one huge tree so there's no indication if or how the Shadrack Line and the Black Jack Line connect further back.
Sharon
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Thanks for the 1841 census info, Suz!
Sharon, that's wonderful, thank you! I don't know if this is technically illegal, but I wonder would it be possible to obtain a photocopy of the relevant pages of Bob Dawson's book concerning the Black Jack Line, please? Or is there an online resource that gives the same information as contained in The Genealogy of the Romany Boswells?
If not, could you give me the ISBN or ISSN number for the book, please? That way I can see if the library system can track it down! So much easier for them if there is an ISBN number!!
I am now a little confused regarding Sampson and Isaiah and the exact relationship between them. If you look at the dates then it would make more sense is Sampson's father and Moses were brothers, rather than Moses and Sampson himself.
Dominic
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by the way the 1841 census gives occupation as Gypsy and there is no "yes or no" for whether any were b.in county or not
at least it found moses!
Can't locate him in 51 though
Suz
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Not suprising you cant find them really, in the 1841 and 1851 census (maybe 1861 as well cant remember offhand) it was not required for an enumerator to record people not living in houses. Generally, you are lucky if you find anyone.
Now Bob Dawson Ive always found to be an extremely helpful and amicable fellow, and I would suggest you contact him direct with regard to info on this family, and/or info on his book.
Here is how you can contact him directly
http://www.robertdawson.co.uk/contact.html
With regard to Moses Boswell, I found a few bits myself which might prove useful. Most of this came directly from the IGI online
http://www.familysearch.org
Moses Boswell b.cir 1815 d.1855 Etwall Derbys
married Trinity/Trenit/Traynet/Traynette (think it might also be Fraynet!!) Hasring or Herring or Hearn or Heron m.06.11.1826 Duffield, Derbys
Now I found they had at least two children:
Clara c.08.03.1835 Alfreton Derbys
Merner c.16.06.1844 Maxstoke Wrks
Then A* Moses Boswell *ie I dont know if its the same guy
had three children by a Mary which may or not be Trinity or Esther or someone else entirely.
Emma c.24.12.1838 Breadsall Dby
Gentilia c.25.12.1841 Breadsall Dby
John c.01.03.1846 Bradby Dby
Then Moses Boswell and Esther had:
Solena c.03.05.1822 Edibngale Stf
Henry c.20.08.1826 Sutton On The Hill Dby
Aaron c.18.04.1830 Rand Lincs
Elijahnesus c.31.12.1831 Horkstow Lincs
Eliza c.24.05.1841 Malpas Cheshire
Letitia c.06.05.1844 Leigh Stf.
There may be more hidden on the IGI I havent seen/found.
Trinity Traynet etc Hearn/Herring etc is Trenit d/o Miller Heron (aka Young) and his wife Winnifruita Boswell, daughter of Shadrack Boswell. According to the Heron Pedigree deposited with the JGLS by the Revd George Hall.
Miller Young appears on the 1851 census and reputedly was born circa 1791 in Yorkshire. He was a widower.
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Now I have some stuff on Shadrack Boswells family (and suposed family) but I cant remember for the life of me where it all came from because I had an enormous computer crash and lost absolutely everything some months ago. By Luck I had been wise enough to write on these and other messageboards and was able to pick up the threads pretty quickly. Well that and having sent the entire family history to my cousin abt a year before the crash. So some things I have but are a year out of date and Im playing catch up and others Im going on what Ive written online for others. Heaven help us all!!!
ok without further ado:
Shadrach/Shadrack Boswell and Elizabeth Buckley or Smith
Salvino born circa 1772
Margaret born circa 1774
James born circa 1777
Tyso/Taiso/Tisso etc c.30.08.1778 Epping Forest Essex, married Sophia Hearn/Herring by whom he had Sylvester who had Trafalgar etc.
He married Hannah Williams/Smith (a wid) 29.09.1823 Hull Yorks. He died on 5.08.1831 at Tetford, Lincs, after being struck by lightening with his friend/cousin Edward 'No Name" Hearn/Heron who also died that night. They went into a barn to find straw to keep their tents dry, and the barn was hit, killing them both outright. They are buried together at Tetford and their gravestone still stands.
By Cinderella Buckley/Smith poss a sister of Elizabeth, poss Elizabeth herself,
Lewis b.cir 1781
Lewis b.cir 1792 both of whom were either baptised under Smith or Buckley.
By a third wife, little known about it would appear frm the JGLS - Mesila,
he had:
Winifruita (often called Winifred) b.cir 1772 Asheldam Ex
Caravania c.1784 Layer De La Haye Ex
Matilda c.1785 Hackney, Mx.
There was also suposed to be:
Manful, married Rebecca Williams who went to the USA
Seni (probably listed as Sarah in any official docs)
Clark who married Deleta Boswell the daughter of Tisso/Tyso/Taiso
Sophia who married Guilderoy Scamp
Abel who married Lucy Scamp
and Shadrack/h Jnr who was transported.
A Clark Boswell and Delevy/Lepha/Aleaf had:
Mineretta/Miseretta c.16.01.1825 Tibberton Worc who reputedly married Plato Boswell s/o Abel and Lucy
Daniel Leavy c.25.12.1832 Gedney Hill, Lincs
Riley c.1830 Whittlesey Cambs
Theres also a Clark and Elizabeth who had Plato (presumably the same Plato as above who is generally listed in the JGLS and gypsy genealogies as being s/o Abel and Lucy Scamp)
Plato: c.09.11.1817 Rouse Lench Worcs. Which makes things entertainingly confusing, espically since Riley was also generally listed as being a son of Abel and Lucy! Its all good fun.
I dont have Bob Dawsons book (maybe a future birthday pressie!) so have no idea on his take on things. Soz.
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Hi An,
That's fabulous, thank you! A bit confusing in places ??? but fabulous nonetheless!!! I will certainly try contacting Bob Dawson to see what he can provide!
I thank all of you for all your acres of help today! It really does mean a lot to me, and will to my friend also. Thank you!
Dominic
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Believe me, I get confused too.
A couple of points worth remembering:
In the earlier centuries, polygamy was perfectly acceptable amongst the Romanies.
It was also the norm to marry within the family, so cousins would marry cousins etc to keep the bloodlines pure.
In the latter half of the 19th century and early part of the 20th, several members of the Journals Of The Gypsy Lore Society (JGLS) deposited in their archives family trees of families such as Boswells Herons/Hearns which they had drawn up talking to members of those families. They are a very important aid to anyone researching those families.
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He died on 5.08.1831 at Tetford, Lincs, after being struck by lightening with his friend/cousin Edward 'No Name" Hearn/Heron who also died that night. They went into a barn to find straw to keep their tents dry, and the barn was hit, killing them both outright. They are buried together at Tetford and their gravestone still stands.
An
which Edward was this (who was he married to)
im getting confused between them all ???
Matilda
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Edward Heron/Hearn. Also known as "No Name." They share a grave at Tetford In Lincs. (Ive seen it).He was another one with several wives. He was supposed to have married Seni Smith, her sister Sibbella Smith, and Sophia Hearn/Heron (The very same as was married to Tyso Boswell), but his "main" or permanent wife was Rose or Rosa Lovell.
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thanks Ann
think ive got it now
do you know how if at all he fits in with Edward who was married to Sibensis Buckland and Sinfai Buckland father of Edmund who "married" jemina Smith
sorry to high jack the post
thanks Matilda ;)
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Yes, he was your Edwards uncle. Well, reputedly. No one has a baptism for Edward No Name because he wasnt baptised until he was an adult.
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thanks agian Ann ;D
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A Clark Boswell and Delevy/Lepha/Aleaf had:
Mineretta/Miseretta c.16.01.1825 Tibberton Worc who reputedly married Plato Boswell s/o Abel and Lucy
Daniel Leavy c.25.12.1832 Gedney Hill, Lincs
Riley c.1830 Whittlesey Cambs
Theres also a Clark and Elizabeth who had Plato (presumably the same Plato as above who is generally listed in the JGLS and gypsy genealogies as being s/o Abel and Lucy Scamp)
Just picked up an extra one:
Clark and Leaf had:
Zachariah c.11.02.1827 Pebworth Glos
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:D LOL And they just keep coming ...... ;D
Thanks Ann!
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Sorry I cant help it ;D
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i can confirm that emily edith yeomans and boswell did not marry, she was my great grandmother and left her first husband arthur moore with the children. my grandfather used to go and visit her in derby and that is where he met my grandmother,
Janet
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More meat on the bones :
* T.W. Thompson, 'II. - Samuel Fox and the Derbyshire Boswells', Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society, 3rd series, III, part 4 (1924), 171-172.
Isaiah Boswell, Nelson's brother, had only one son, Edward M'Kenzie, and one daughter, Daiona...M'Kenzie and Daiona, whom I first saw at Repton on Boxing Day, 1923, with blackened faces and coloured paper streamers pinned to their clothes and head-/gear, the one playing the concertina and the other a tambourine, do travel at times.1
1 Daiona married Harry Deverill.
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Dominic, could you please gives us more details from Alger's birth certificate. Actual date, place, father's occupation, and the like.
Much appreciated.
Keith C
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Just wondering if you are still trying to find out Boswell information. Emily Edith Moore was my great grandmother. Let me know
Tracey
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Hello. I am Isaiah Boswell (now known as Richard/ Dick). I am son of Edward Mackenzie Boswell and Emily Edith Boswell. Although the census states that I was born in the first quarter of 1921 my actual date of birth is 29/12/1920 as you can see this was in the last two days of the final quarter of 1920 hence the census mistake.
I am the middle of my parents five children, my older Brother was Algar Boswell born in 1915, then my elder sister Veronica Boswell born in 1918 then myself, then came along my younger sister Diona Boswell around 1922, then my younger brother William Mackenzie Boswell born in 1924. Myself and Veronica (Ron) are the only two remaining siblings as the others have now passed away. I am soon to be 89 at the end of the year.
I can actually provide more information if required and assist you further in completing the famioly tree as I would also be interested in learning more myself about those relatives that I have lost contact with or have not yet met.
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in what area were you born uncle?
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Hi Dick
My father is Samson Howard Limb Boswell. (Sammy) My grandfather John Howard Boswell (Jonny) they travelled around Derbyshire. I would like to hear from you, so that we might exchange information.
Linda :)
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Hello Linda
My Father Edward passed away in 1929 when I was aged 8 years and 3 months old. I recall him taking me to work with him we rode on the push bike with me on the cross bar on a seat he made especially for me. We rode to Melbourne Hall on one occasion where my Father would use his bicycle which had been specially adapted by himself with grind stones - his own invention. He would put the bike on a stand, sit on the saddle and pedal away to turn the mill stones to sharper the cutlery or tools. He began to teach me to play the violin before my brother Algar traded it in for a Crystal set (which was the earlier version of the wireless).
I do remember Jonny Boswell, I am not sure if it is the same one. He had a son and daughter (Jonny and Thora). If it is the same Jonny as your Grandfather, he used to have his Caravan on Breaston lane in Sawley.
Regards Dick
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Hi Dick
Yes that's my granddad he lived in a caravan in Sawley, where my dad was born (Sammy) My aunty Thora passed away in Feb of this year age 92. I have got photographs on Romany Genes sites. Take a look you will see my granddad (jonny) his wife Alice, my dad Sammy, aunty Thora and other members of our family.
Cathy would you please give Dick my e-mail address so that he can contact me. Thanks
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linda i am not sure who you are?do i have your email address?
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Hi Cathy I have sent you my e-mail address. Thanks :)
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Hi Cathy I have sent you my e-mail address. Thanks :)
Actually, you've sent a R2M (report to moderators) with the email address to moderators rather than a PM (personal message) to Cathy but I'll pass the message to Cathy offline.
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:-[ Sorry about that aghadowey. Thank's for passing my e-mail to Cathy. Linda
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Dominic, could you please gives us more details from Alger's birth certificate. Actual date, place, father's occupation, and the like.
I cannot apologise enough for not responding to this in the last .... 10 months!
Algar was born on 24 March 1915 in Ilkeston, Derbyshire. Certificate gave his father as Edward MacKenzie Boswell as his father and Emily Edith Yeomans as his mother.
Algar first married Hilda M Walker in 1936 and then Kathleen Dilks in 1947. He died in 1982 in Leicester District.
I no longer have the birth certificate itself (having given it to my mother's friend who is one of the daughters of Algar), and it appears that I am pretty shabby as I didn't write down what Algar's stated occupation was! Trust me when I say I'm kicking myself now (and have no idea why I didn't - it's not like me ....).
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I have been reading your thread and i can say that my family tree includes the Gumble family.
John Gumble married Ada Boswell, please read below i am not sure if you have this information.
First Generation
1. John (Jack) Gumble
John married Ada Boswell daughter of Levi Boswell and Rayne\ Urania Lee Smith. Ada was born in 1869. She died on 10 Dec 1939 in Plumstead. She was buried in Plumstead Cemetery.
Good luck with your search
Emily Collins x
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My brother Algar Boswell was living in Kilby Bridge when he died. With regards to Algar's occupation he was a length man (caretaking many of the locks) at Foxton Locks for many years and before that he was a boatman. Taking cargo such as coal, sugar etc along the canals. During the war, Stanton Ironworks had 6 pairs of narrow boats. Algar had a pair of thse boats and used to carry 500lb iron shells to Stoke on Trent.
Algar had one daughter with Hilda his first wife and her name is Thelma. Algar then went on to have 8 more children with Kathleen, 5 daughters and 3 sons as far as I can recall.
With regards to my Father Edward McKenzie Boswell, his occupation was 'Cutler' sharpening peoples cutlery as stated in my earlier entry.
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Isaiah
Did your mum and dad ever mention what they were doing when William Thompson saw them -
"M'Kenzie and Daiona, whom I first saw at Repton on Boxing Day, 1923, with blackened faces and coloured paper streamers pinned to their clothes and head-gear, the one playing the concertina and the other a tambourine"
Presumably he played the concertina and she the tambourine. Do you ever remember hearing them? I wonder what sort of tunes were played?
I would love to know more.
Keith C
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I have been researching my family tree, and noticed a Boswell relation, a Mary Ann Boswell, she was a convict who came to Australia 1832 she was tried in Southwark, and was a native of Kennington (Lambeth) Surrey, her father if I am right was an Edward Boswell, and mother Elizabeth Heffer, she was born 1813, and Baptised St Marys Kennington. Would be interested in knowing of any link to Gypsy Boswell family.
Thanks
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contact romany roser on here.she knows alot about the aussie convicts.
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DESPERATELY SEEKING...
My query concerns one Lucretia Smith given as aged 74 and Matilda Boswell. believed to be her daughter aged 40 - ages given on their tombstone in 1844. Lucretia was given as Queen of the Gypsies. They are buried in the churchyard of St Mary the Virgin in Beighton, formerly in Derbyshire but now incorporated into the City of Sheffield. They are reputed to have lived in the village but do not appear on the 1841 census.
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Cathayb
I'm currently researching the Boswells for a book. I don't have them on the 1841 census but have an idea at least on who they might be. The claim that they were mother and daughter doesn't appear in the parish register entry for the burials, or on the gravestone. It comes sixty five years later in the 1909 book of gravestone monuments 'Epitaphia' and I think is either the author drawing his own conclusion from the stone or reporting stories that had grown up in the village. I don't think too much store can be put on those, as Lucretia is also supposed to haunt the graveyard!
I think they were actually niece and aunt, though possibly if Matilda was in a relationship with one of her cousins, Lucretia may have been mother in law too. Neither died at Beighton, Matilda died in Lythe, Yorkshire, 110 miles away and Lucretia at Halton, Cheshire, 70 miles away, so both were transported some distance to be buried there, why I'm not sure.
These are Lucretia's children:
Hannah Smith, daughter of Josiah Smith and Lucretia, baptised at Cadeby, Leicestershire on 21st December 1802.
Phenix Smith, son of Josiah Smith and Lucretia, baptised at Thurnby, Leicestershire on 3rd August 1806
Josiah Smith, son of Josiah Smith and Lucretia, baptised at Saltby, Leicestershire on 2nd April 1809.
Senah Smith, daughter of Josiah Smith and Lucretia, baptised at Market Overton, Rutland, on 9th May 1811.
Jenny daughter of Josiah Smith 'Gipsy' and Lucretia , no settled abode, baptised at Long Stratton, Norfolk on 27th March 1814.
Rhoda Smith, daughter of Josiah Smith 'tinker' and Lucretia Gipsies no settled abode, born 4th November, baptised at Baytham, Suffolk 17th November 1816.
Sarah Smith, daughter of Josiah Smith and Lucretia, baptised at Monks Kirby, Warwickshire on 6th February 1820.
These make it unlikely the age on her burial is correct. I think she is actually Lucy Boswell, daughter of Robert Boswell and Lucy, baptised 20th December 1780 at Thornage, Norfolk. Robert Boswell was born circa 1735 in Wiltshire and buried at Loders, Dorset in January 1806 (according to Frances Hindes Groomes 1880 book In Gipsy Tents a monument was put up there on his grave to the 'King of the Gypsies'). Robert's wife appears on all other records as Lucretia/Lucresey and they had been together since about 1760. He was polygamous and had taken on a second, much younger partner, Mary/Ann around 1776 and travelled with both women. In January of the same year Lucy/Lucretia was baptised, Mary/Ann baptised a son with Robert, Edward Boswell at Kilmington, Somerset, he was Matilda's father and was also buried as a 'King of the Gypsies' in the 1850's in Devon.
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Edward Boswell and Phyllis Lee, married by license at St Mary, Hanwell, Middlesex on 14th October 1799.
Matilda Bosell [sic] daughter of Edward Bosell and Phillis, baptised at Hawkhurst, Kent on 21st September 1800.
Edward Boswell, son of Edward Boswell and Phyllis, baptised at Yeovil, Somerset, on 16th April 1802.
Messali Bosswell, ‘born in Kent’ daughter of Edward Boswell and Phillis, ‘Travellers encamped at Fryen Hill Wood’, was baptised at Otterbourne, Hampshire on 18th September 1804. (On alternate transcriptions given as Merreli )
Louisa Bossell [sic], daughter of Edward Bossell and Phillis, baptised at East Stratton, Hampshire on 27th April 1806.
Delia Boswell, daughter of Edward Boswell and Phillis, of Kilmington, Somerset, baptised at Paignton, Devon on 5th February 1808.
Phillis Boswell, 12 days old, daughter of Edward Boswell and Phillis, baptised at Kilmington, Somerset on 8th February 1812.
Eliza Boswell, daughter of Edward Boswell and Phillis, baptised at Duddington, Northamptonshire on 21st December 1813.
Noah Boswell, son of Edward Boswell and Phillis, baptised at Walthamstow, Essex on 4th June 1815.
Caroline Boswell, daughter of Edward Boswell 'Vagrant' and Phillis, baptised at Lyme Regis, Dorset on 24th August 1817.
The above is Matilda Boswell's baptism with her siblings. This means her age is also slightly out on the gravestone. But I do think it is her because of the following newspaper report:
Wednesday, 27 March 1844 DERBYSHIRE LENT ASSIZES – Wednesday, March 20 – Noah BOSWELL, 24, and Joseph SMITH, 28, (gypsies), charged with having on the 6th day of March instant, at the parish of Beighton, stolen a promissory note of the Chesterfield and High Peak Bank, for the sum of 5/-, four sovereigns, and two half sovereigns, the property of Thomas MIRFIN. SMITH was found Guilty, and BOSWELL acquitted. Sentence on SMITH, 7 years’ transportation.
This is only a couple of months after Matilda's burial at the same place. I think this is Matilda Boswell's brother Noah with his cousin, Lucretia's son Josiah/Joseph. Again the ages are out, Noah would actually be 29 and Josiah 35, but I can't see any other Noah it could be.
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The following report of Lucretia's inquest appeared in a newspaper five days before her burial, which also gives some info on her last movements:
Liverpool Mercury 22nd November 1844. Warrington. Inquest on a Gipsy - A lengthened investigation took place on Monday last, at lower Walton, before William Caldwell Esq. the coroner touching the death of Lucretia Smith, a Gipsy, about 70 years of age,which occurred on Thursday in a Shippon [i.e cattle shed] belonging to Mr James Swinton of Lower Walton. The deceased, it appeared, had been apprehended in Montgomeryshire, by a Police Officer, named Ady, charged with being one of a party of Gipsies who had deluded a Cheshire farmer out of sixty pounds under the pretense they they would 'rule his planets' for him, and recover the possession of some stolen articles. She was taken to Shrewsbury, and there dismissed, on account of the non-appearance of the prosecutor. She was again apprehended at Warrington, bought before the magistrates on the 18th instance, and discharged, the simple farmer not being able to identify her as one of the party. The old woman and her daughter were on the way to join their friends and had reached Walton, where she fell ill and died on Thursday morning. The result of the inquiry was a verdict that the deceased had died from natural causes, and that Ady was free from blame.
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thank you very very much.the knowledge is wanted by a lady that lives by the graveyard and folk are always enquiring of her the story behind these two woman.as she talks alot to the tourists she wanted to be able to inforn them so this will help her conderably.thank you again and when the book come out could you please let me know as i would love to buy a copy.i have a tree of boswells that were round hampshire and witlshire and also they got upto a bit of smuggling.if i can give you their details if you dont already have them i will let you have the onfo.we also have some notorious boswells in cornwall that i can give you some info on if you want it.thanks again for your help.cathayb
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No problem at all Cathayb happy it is of help. The book I'm working on covers the Boswells from 1650-1810. I decided to cut off after that point, because the book is already quite large two parts about 175 pages each, and there is a lot of info on the later periods already out there. I'm hoping the RTFHS will publish it when finished. I have a section for burials which does cover Boswells buried in the 19th century who were born before 1800, which is why I have looked into Lucretia's grave, as I am about 80-90% sure she is the same person as Lucy/Lucretia Boswell born 1780. Her father Robert and his wives were fairly long travellers, I have records of them travelling large distances in England, though they seem to have settled around the southern counties as he got older. His father, and Lucretia's grandfather, was probably the Henry Boswell buried at Ickleford, Hertfordshire in 1780, (another down in the local lore as a 'King of the Gypsies') but can't prove that for certain.
As for smugglers I would be interested in your information. I have come across a couple of records from the 18th century of Romany Stanleys, on the south coast involved in smuggling, but not for Boswells. I have come across a couple of Romany Boswells down as inkeepers in areas, such as Lancashire, on the shipping coasts, where otherwise they never travelled. This has led me to wonder about smuggling as Old Will Faa had an inn at Kirk Yetholm in the same era, and was definitely heavily involved in the smuggling there. I think from memory either him or his son received a blow to the hand from a cutlass escaping the customs men, and cried out that they had ruined a fine fiddler for life!
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I'm not sure if anyone has made a "leap" to South Africa on the Boswell "quest"?? They are a 3rd generation circus family (that is as far as I have been informed) ~ it just seems to me to be interesting that this seems to hold similarities when making comparisons?!
Kind regards
Patricia
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There is some info here on the English Boswell circus family of the late 19th century. They might be related to the South African Boswell circus family. I don't believe there is any connection of either to the Romany Boswell family though:
Boswell's Circus
The first Boswell's Circus was founded in 1882 by James Clements Boswell, the son of the clown and artist James Boswell (1826-1859). It closed in 1898. J. C. Boswell had five sons who were all artists, and the circus was revived in 1912 as Boswell's Royal Hippodrome and Circus Company. It later became known as Boswell Brother's Circus and Menagerie, and later again as just Boswell's Circus. The artist family of Boswell are not closely, if at all, related to the biographer James Boswell (1740-1795).
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James C Boswell Head Married Male 50 1851 Artist London, Middlesex,
Louisa Boswell Wife Married Female 43 1858 Scotland
Rebecca Boswell Daughter - Female 21 1880 Theatricals On Stage Germany
James Boswell Son - Male 20 1881 Theatricals On Stage London, Middlesex, England
Dora Boswell Daughter - Female 19 1882 Theatricals On Stage Tynemouth, Northumberland, England
Walter Boswell Son - Male 18 1883 Theatricals On Stage Blackpool, Lancashire, England
Alfred Boswell Son - Male 16 1885 Theatricals On Stage Wigan, Lancashire, England
Sydney O Boswell Son - Male 11 1890 Theatricals On Stage Oxford, Oxfordshire, England
The family on the 1901 census at at Rowley Regis, Dudley, Staffordshire. Sydney O Boswell leaves U.K by ship for Pretoria in 1922 as a 'Circus Proprietor'
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I just found it fascinating that the surname is so connecting to the "traveller" way of life ~ even as far afield as here in South Africa!! Good luck with the research and the book!
Kind regards
Patricia
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NOW TO LOOK AT THE WIVES:
JANE NASH S FATHER WAS WILLIAM NASH
ELIZABETH SMITH 1848 S FATHER WAS HERCULES(ARKLESS)SMITH
SOPHIA BOSWELL S FATHER WAS LEWIS BOSWELL BORN 1788 AND HER MOTHER WAS CLEOPATRA BOSWELL BORN 1790.
LEWIS BOSWELLS FATHER WAS BARTHOLMEW BOSWELL BORN 1767 AND LEWIS MOTHER WAS COLBERRY BUCKLAND BORN 1767. BARTHOLMEW DID MARRY AGAIN AFTER THE DEATH OF COLBERRY TO MARY BUCKLAND IN 1798.
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LEWIS IS THE SMUGGLER.ITS SO LONG SINCE I DID THIS TREE FOR A FRIEND I AM HAVING TROUBLE LOCATING WHERE I HAVE IT.I WILL KEEP SEARCH
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well i just cant find it at the moment.my web site was hacked awhile back and i lost some of my pages.but it was definately lewis boswell that was involved in the smuggling.i know he was in trouble for other things aswell and appears in newspapers of the time.i cant even find them at the moment.i think they had brought the smuggled goods to wiltshire and were trying to hide them in a lake when they were found.this family lewis boswell stayed around wiltshire quite a bit.as soon as i find what i am looking for i will post it but i have a seriously disabled daughter ill with pnemonia at the moment so havent a lot of time to look.cathayb
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Thanks Cathayb, I appreciate that. Best wishes to you and your daughter, hope she feels better soon. I do have a chapter on Bartholomew in the book, around 4 pages. I have his wife down as Colly Smith, married in Bletchingdon, Oxfordshire on 6th June 1779, and Lewis Boswell, baptised 18th May 1788 in Bromham, Wiltshire. I have no info at all on Lewis and smuggling.
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they were definately smiths and boswell marrying in to one another but came down eventuaslly to black lizzie.they were around the wiltshire area.i will put all i have about the family on here now and then continue my hunt for the smuggling article
SOME OF THE OTHER CHILDREN BORN TO THE SMITH FAMILIES:
REUBEN AND SOPHIA HAD
LEWIS 1843 ELMSTONE SOMERSET
URIAH 1845 HENDRED BERKSHIRE
SILVESTER 1847 PANGBOURN BERKSHIRE
CONSTANCE 1849 YEOVIL SOMERSET
JARINIA 1851 WALLINGFORD BERKSHIRE
CONSELLETTA 1853 HHENLEY OXFORDSHIRE.
URIAH AND ELIZABETH HAF
EARNEST(OMI.ONI.AININESS) 1875 AMESBURY WILTSHIRE
PATIENCE 1877 BOWERCHALK WILTSHIRE
COMFORT 1877 EASTERTON WILTSHIRE
VASHTI 1881 WOODFORD WILTSHIRE
LEVI 1885 BISHOPS CANNING WILTSHIRE.
EARNEST WITH A POSSIBLE LAISON WITH SUSAN BARNEY HAD ELIZABETH COOPER KNOWN AS BLACK LIZZIE.
BLACK LIZZIE MARRIED OLIVER COOPER.
EARNEST AND JANE HAD
SELINIA 1921
ROSE ???
THERTE ARE QUITE PROABLY MORE CHILDREN TO THIS COUPLE NOT YET PROVEN.
BRIAN GRACES FATHER WAS ERIC REGINALD GRACE BORN SWINDON 1918 MARRIED SELINIA IN 1941 AND DIED IN 1977.ICLUDING GRACIE THEIR WERE 3 OFFSPRING TO THE MARRIAG
THERE ARE SOME STORIES AND LEGENDS RELATING TO THE FAMILY THAT I WILL ADD AS I HAVE TIME.ANY MISTAKES I TAKE FULL RESPOSIBILITY FOR AS NO ONE IS PERFECT(LEAST OF ALL ME),
NOW TO LOOK AT THE WIVES:
JANE NASH S FATHER WAS WILLIAM NASH
ELIZABETH SMITH 1848 S FATHER WAS HERCULES(ARKLESS)SMITH
SOPHIA BOSWELL S FATHER WAS LEWIS BOSWELL BORN 1788 AND HER MOTHER WAS CLEOPATRA BOSWELL BORN 1790.
LEWIS BOSWELLS FATHER WAS BARTHOLMEW BOSWELL BORN 1767 AND LEWIS MOTHER WAS COLBERRY BUCKLAND BORN 1767. BARTHOLMEW DID MARRY AGAIN AFTER THE DEATH OF COLBERRY TO MARY BUCKLAND IN 1798.
SOME OF THE OTHER CHILDREN BORN TO THE SMITH FAMILIES:
REUBEN AND SOPHIA HAD
LEWIS 1843 ELMSTONE SOMERSET
URIAH 1845 HENDRED BERKSHIRE
SILVESTER 1847 PANGBOURN BERKSHIRE
CONSTANCE 1849 YEOVIL SOMERSET
JARINIA 1851 WALLINGFORD BERKSHIRE
CONSELLETTA 1853 HHENLEY OXFORDSHIRE.
URIAH AND ELIZABETH HAF
EARNEST(OMI.ONI.AININESS) 1875 AMESBURY WILTSHIRE
PATIENCE 1877 BOWERCHALK WILTSHIRE
COMFORT 1877 EASTERTON WILTSHIRE
VASHTI 1881 WOODFORD WILTSHIRE
LEVI 1885 BISHOPS CANNING WILTSHIRE.
EARNEST WITH A POSSIBLE LAISON WITH SUSAN BARNEY HAD ELIZABETH COOPER KNOWN AS BLACK LIZZIE.
BLACK LIZZIE MARRIED OLIVER COOPER.
EARNEST AND JANE HAD
SELINIA 1921
ROSE ???
THERTE ARE QUITE PROABLY MORE CHILDREN TO THIS COUPLE NOT YET PROVEN.
BRIAN GRACES FATHER WAS ERIC REGINALD GRACE BORN SWINDON 1918 MARRIED SELINIA IN 1941 AND DIED IN 1977.ICLUDING GRACIE THEIR WERE 3 OFFSPRING TO THE MARRIAG
THERE ARE SOME STORIES AND LEGENDS RELATING TO THE FAMILY THAT I WILL ADD AS I HAVE TIME.ANY MISTAKES I TAKE FULL RESPOSIBILITY FOR AS NO ONE IS PERFECT(LEAST OF ALL ME),
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thomas lewis was thought to have been one of the smugglers!!!
Why Moonrakers?
The Moonrakers Legend
There are variations on the legend of Moonrakers and the location of the legend is claimed by many locales within Wiltshire and a couple outside.
The form told by Wiltshire's detractors is that a traveller came upon some drunken Wiltshire men one moonlit night. They were trying to rake a round glowing object from a pool. The rakers claimed it was a large cheese they were trying to retrieve; the traveller declared it was obviously a reflection of the moon. No imagination, travellers.
Wiltshire's own variant on this is that smugglers detected an approaching Exciseman (revenue agent) on a bright moonlit night. In order to waylay suspicion the smugglers dumped the contraband (usually barrels or kegs of French brandy) into a nearby pond. When the Exciseman had gone they began to fish out the barrels with hay rakes. However, the Exciseman came back and asked them what they were doing. They told him it was surely obvious, they were raking out the cheese they could see in the water. The Exciseman laughed at them for being so stupid and rode off. The "moonrakers" left off raking the moon, laughed at the Exciseman's naivety and continued to recover their kegs.
Variations on the second version include the smugglers coming from Bristol, Bishops Canning and elsewhere but Devizes seems a popular
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now somewhere i have the info that mentions lewsi boswell in this escapade but i think there is something funny if i remeber rightly about either thomas smith or lewis boswell changing their names about.cor,got the answer to one question via you and now i am off researching something i researched years ago and have lost.dordi!!
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There are variations on the legend of Moonrakers and the location of the legend is claimed by many locales within Wiltshire and a couple outside.
The form told by Wiltshire's detractors is that a traveller came upon some drunken Wiltshire men one moonlit night. They were trying to rake a round glowing object from a pool. The rakers claimed it was a large cheese they were trying to retrieve; the traveller declared it was obviously a reflection of the moon. No imagination, travellers.
Wiltshire's own variant on this is that smugglers detected an approaching Exciseman (revenue agent) on a bright moonlit night. In order to waylay suspicion the smugglers dumped the contraband (usually barrels or kegs of French brandy) into a nearby pond. When the Exciseman had gone they began to fish out the barrels with hay rakes. However, the Exciseman came back and asked them what they were doing. They told him it was surely obvious, they were raking out the cheese they could see in the water. The Exciseman laughed at them for being so stupid and rode off. The "moonrakers" left off raking the moon, laughed at the Exciseman's naivety and continued to recover their kegs.
Variations on the second version include the smugglers coming from Bristol, Bishops Canning and elsewhere but Devizes seems a popular place for the enactment. The period tends to be "a while ago", which is sometimes acknowledged as being the 17th or 18th century
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SELINIA SMITH
b. 19.01.21
HIGHWORTH
SWINDON
EARNEST (ONI)
SMITH
b. 1875
BERKSHIRE
married 1914
URIAH SMITH
b. 1845
BERKSHIRE
REUBEN
HAIRES AYRES
SMITH
b. 1812 KINTON
ST MICHALE
NEPTUNE
SMITH
b. 1775
WILTSHIE
d. 1855
THOMAS SMITH
b. 1754
WILTSHIRE
m. 13.11.1781
ASHLEY ASHA
BURTON
ELIZABETH
AYRES
b. 1771 BRISTOL
d. 1855
SOPHIA
SYPHORELLA
BOSWELL
b. 1811
OXFORDSHIRE
LEWIS
BOSWELL
b. 1788
WILTSHIRE
BARTHOLMEN
BOSWELL
b. 1767
COLBERRY
BUCKLAND
b. 1767
CLEOPANTA
BOSWELL
b. 1790
WILTSHIRE
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In the Church-yard of Calne, Wilts, is a Tomb (generally designated by the title of The Gypsy's Tomb), erected to the memory of 'Inverto Boswell,' who is said to have been a the Prince, or (at least) the Son of 'the King of the Gypsies.' It is a handsome square Tomb, erected in a corner close to one of the entrances to the Church, enclosed with a dwarf wall and iron railing, with a covering or sort of canopy over it. It was, for many years after its erection, paid great attention to, by persons being sent as often as occasion required to keep the enclosed ground clear from weeds, and the ironwork, &c. regularly painted; but it has for some years past been quite neglected; and having seen it within these few days, I regretted much its altered appearance; on one side it has the following inscription:
Under this Tomb lieth the body of Inverto Boswell, Son of Henry and Elizabeth Boswell, who departed this life the 8th day of February 1774, aged 36.
The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away: blessed be the Name of the Lord.
There is an abbreviated inscription of the same import at the head of the Tomb, with four lines of poetry underneath, which I was not able to transcribe. Perhaps some of your numerous readers will be able to give intelligence of this Family, and whether they did belong to that singular race of people, which has been on tbe wane for many years, and of whom so few authors have been able to give any accurate account.
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Hello Cathay, thanks for this, I have a bit on Inverto in my book and a drawing of his tomb. Inverto and his family were definitely around Devizes at the right time as these smugglers!
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yes i have a drawing of the tomb aswell.i am beginning to think maybe the story that smith and boswell were the moonraker smugglers was handed down father too son and thats how i found out.if it could nt be proved i wouldnt have made it public on my website so maybe thats why i cant find it.but as i say i was hacked and so maybe it was on there and i have lost it.still searching.i will ask the chap (gracie)who i did the tree for if he has got a copy of it if i still have his email addie.it was definatly around wiltshire and included the moonraker in its comments so maybe you will be able to find something?
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info from the gypsy lore society.i knew there was something funny about thomas smiths name.
Sinfi,Darkis, and Tilaitha were not Mesi's grandchildren, but part of family of her much younger sister Emma (who died in 1918 aged 90) and Tom Boswell (Tommy Lewis).
i can remember when i was researching him that he changed his name from boswell to lewis but cant remember why!!!
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I think it was Lewis Boswell's son Tommy Boswell, who went as Tommy Lewis and was a very good fiddler. Keith Chandler at the Romany Traveller Family History Society sent me through an article all about him. I have a pal who is a great grandson of that Tommy Boswell/Lewis. I have had a look for Lewis Boswell in the Wiltshire newspapers tonight, but no luck there yet.
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whose your friend?not our gracie who is very good on the guitar and writes his own songs.if it is it was his tree i did for him years ago.keith chandler is a great chap aswell.i am asking around.i just cant think where i got the info.yes tommy lewis was a great fiddler. we are talking about the same family for sure.
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i remember someone mentioning snowdrop smith born 1908 who is related to lucutia born 1776.snowdrops mother was alma smith and alma smiths dad was william smith born about 1861.i am having trouble finding william smith??he was married to a sophia smith born about 1863.william in bradford sophia in leicestshire.any help please??
trying to join the tree from snowdrop to Lucrutia and matilda.
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Richarde1979 and cathyb, this last year I finally put two and two together of who my Caroline Smith nee Boswell was, was a big disconnect. knew her father was Edward and mother Phylis, but now know they were Gypsies, which made soo much sense, was delightful finding this. Was wondering if you have any info on Edward Boswell and Phylis Lee , my Carolines grandparents. And I cannot find where her mother and father Edward and Phylis died in USA. And was Josiah Boswell in census in Almedia CA Edward #1s son or brother. From what I've gleamed, he was the son of Edward the "King of the Gypsies". My 4th great grandfather Edward #2 came with his family to USA in the 1850s a few years after his father died. Any info on my two Edwards and my two Phylis's would be great, confusing having two sets of 4-5 g grandparents with same names. I do know from reading, sounded like Edward#1 his father was Robert his mother Mary, and Robert had several wives, and that Henry Boswell may have been Roberts father. exciting as this would take me back to 6th and 7th generation Boswell grandfathers of Romanichal heritage. Am I on right track here. Thanks
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Hello Leslie
Congratulations on the progress you are making with your tree. I have recently published all the research I have undertaken on the Boswell family over the past few years:
The Early Romany Boswells: A Family History 1650-1810 Part 1:The Early Boswells and Famous Boswells.
That is available from the Romany and Traveller Family History Society on their website or at Genfair. The second part should be published in the next few weeks. Both contain info on Edward Boswell and Phylis Lee and their line.
The information you have seems right to me in regards Edward's father Robert and possible grandfather Henry.
Best Regards
Richard
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Hello Leslie
Congratulations on the progress you are making with your tree. I have recently published all the research I have undertaken on the Boswell family over the past few years:
The Early Romany Boswells: A Family History 1650-1810 Part 1:The Early Boswells and Famous Boswells.
That is available from the Romany and Traveller Family History Society on their website or at Genfair. The second part should be published in the next few weeks. Both contain info on Edward Boswell and Phylis Lee and their line.
The information you have seems right to me in regards Edward's father Robert and possible grandfather Henry.
Best Regards
Richard
You might like to know that the second part that Richard mentions above is now available - see http://rtfhs.org.uk/publications/gypsy-families/
Surnames included in the book: Allen, Armstrong, Ayres/Eyres, Bannister, Barnes, Bailey, Bates, Beard, Beldham/Beldom, Berry, Blewitt/Blewett/Bluitt/Bluett, Bocking, Boiling/Boyling, Cooper, Costello, Curtis, Davis/Davies, Deago, Dicks/Dix, Dodo, Doe, Donea, Draper, Evans, Farnando, Faw/Faa, Fawtree, Finch, Fingo, Foster, Fowler, Gray/Grey, Gregory, Green, Hall, Harrison, Hearn[e]/Hern[e]/Ern/Heron/Herrin[g]/Herren, Henley, Hercoat, Hilton, Holt, Hughes, Husbands, Ingram, James, Jones, King, Knight, Lee/Leigh, Linyan/Linian, Lock/Locke/Locks, Lovell, Loveridge, Mason, Morrell, Nelson, Newcomb, Newberry/Newbury/Rewbrey, Parker, Pearse, Phillips, Price, Revill/Revell, Scamp/Skamp/Skemp/Kemp, Shandley, Sherriff, Smith, Stanley, Stevens/Stephens, Swales, Taylor, Volantine/Volantyne, Wainright, Watts, Waylan, White, Wilkinson, Williams, Wilshaw, Wood/Woods, Woodall, Young
Hope this is helpful.
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Cathayb - did you ever find a link from Snowdrop to Lucretia Smith? I'm a descendent of William and Sophia Smith.