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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: judb on Sunday 16 March 08 06:07 GMT (UK)
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Jane BANKIER (b about 1832) m David CLELLAND (no information where or when, after 1851), first child was born in Rushworth Victoria; d 1919, Yarra Glen, Victoria, Australia. David Clelland was born in Kilsyth and still living in Scotland (Cadder) with his parents in 1851.
Jane's parents' names: Samuel BANKIER and Mary LEISHMAN married 8 Aug 1818 (place not known)
I have a shipping record of a Jane CLELLAND aged 20 arriving Port Phillip June 1856, which would mean that they were married before emigrating but no other Clellands on that ship. Dates are a bit fuzzy too but possible.
I have not been able to find a Samuel and Mary BANKIER, or a suitable Jane Bankier either, in the UK 1841 or 1851 census (need to look again as I now have better information about where they might have been living at the time).
Any information about Jane's birth or marriage or her parents would be just wonderful.
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On the IGI Samuel BANKIER married Mary LEISHMAN on 8 August 1818 at Kilsyth, Sterlingshire.
In 1841 Census at Kilsyth Mary BANKIER aged 40 is shown with the following BANKIERs' probably her children:
Alexander aged 15, Samuel and James both aged 10 and Janet aged 5.
In 1851 Census Janet BANKIER a dressmaker aged 16 is living with Mary LEISHMAN at Charles Street, Kilsyth.
I think Janet is probably your Jane, it is not unusual for this to happen or vice versa.
Quite often on Scottish Censuses the wife goes by her maiden name.
Hope this helps
Robert
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Hello
From IGI - Christening dates for children of Samuel Bankier and Mary Leishman
Ann Bankier 2/4/1820
Alexander Bankier 17/2/1822
William Bankier 10/8/1823
Mary Bankier 30/10/1825
Samuel Bankier 21/10/1827
James Bankier 9/7/1829
Jean Bankier 2/10/1831
Janet Bankier 6/7/1834
All born Kilsyth Stirling Scoland
A possible ???
1851 Census
Inveraray
Jean Bankier 19 born Kilsyth - servant
with the Maitland family.
Good luck :)
Raylen
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I have a shipping record of a Jane CLELLAND aged 20 arriving Port Phillip June 1856, which would mean that they were married before emigrating but no other Clellands on that ship. Dates are a bit fuzzy too but possible.
Maybe this is not your Jane.
Your Jane Bankier and David Clelland had the following children registered in Victoria.
Alexander born 1855 Creswick (Registered as Cleland)[married Lotta Evylean Reid 1882]
Mary born 1857 Heathcote. Died 1914 Heathcote age 57 [married George Douglas Ferguson 1881]
Samuel born 1859 Heathcote
David born 1862 Heathcote
Margaret born 1864 Heathcote.Died 1919 Yarra Glen age 54 [married Edward Charles Morris 1886]
William Nicholas born 1867 Heathcote
Janet Bankier born 1872 Heathcote
Possible deaths for
Janet - Jessie Bankie Clelland died 1941 age 68 years East Melbourne
Father: David Mother:Jean Bankie
Alexander - Alexander Clelland died 1915 age 60 years Costerfield
Father: David Mother: Janie Unknown
Hope this helps
Raylen
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From IGI
David Clelland married Jane Bankier
7/7/1854
Cadder,Lanark,Scoland
Raylen
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I see from re-looking at this that I didn't thank you Raylen and Roma for this information.
Thanks a bunch - people on Rootschat are so kind with finding and sharing - it is MUCH appreciated!
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Do you have any information on any other Bankier Families?
The reason I ask is that Kilsyth Churchyard & Cemetery are FULL of Bankiers. I checked through MI's that I have but none match the folk mentioned in your post.
There is a stone for Samuel Bankier & wife Janet Anderson (+ upmteen of their offspring). Parts of the inscription are pretty worn but I made my best guess and Samuel, I think would have been born c1827. This is based on him being 78 when he died in 1906, but I'm not 100% sure that his age is 78 - the second number could be a 3, a 5 or and 8.
Could this Samuel be the son of Samuel Bankier & Mary Leishman?
Wife JANET ANDERSON died 8th April 189? aged 64
The children listed on the stone are as follows:
WILLIAM Bankier died 15th April 1861 aged 2y 3m
MARY GILCHRIST Bankier died 5th February 1866 aged 9m
JAMES Bankier died 22nd July 1903 aged 45
SAMUEL Bankier died 20th August 1906 aged ??
Also grandchildren
PETER G. Bankier died 24th July 1895 aged 2y 6m
MARGARET BROWN Bankier (daughter of above James Bankier and wife of John Stark) died 23rd August 1921 aged 35
I know you'd probably rather be moving backwards rather than forwards (or sideways) but I just thought this might add a wee 'extra', presuming, of course, that this is son Samuel in the first place!!
If it turns out that this family is part of yours and you'd like a copy of photographs of the stone, please send me a PM with your personal e-mail address and I'll forward copies.
Anne
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Many thanks, Anne for your kind offer. I'll have to digest all this. I think it is probably the same Samuel. Will be in touch.
Judith
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I would be interested to see if you went back further for David Clelland. I have Clelands from Lanark (Barony Parish) and wonder if there is a connection going back. Some of my Clelands are Alexander, Jane/t or Jean, William, Elizabeth, etc.
McCann
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At this point I have very little about David Clel(l)and. The info I have is from another person so I have not yet verified it personally. The info I have says my David Clel(l)and was born 30 Jul 1829 "in Glasgow" and married to Jean Bankier 7 July 1854 also 'in Glasgow". I haven't been to Scotland so have no idea whether Lanark is considered part of Glasgow or not. I know that Jean Bankier was living in Kilsyth. As they emigrated in 1855 there are no census entries for them together.
The info also says "Your David Clelland and Jane Bankier were brother and sister to my James Clelland and Mary Bankier – the brothers married sisters." None of this is helped by the Bankiers having a Janet and a Jean, both names sometimes being changed to Jane.
I am only at the beginning of tracking the Clelland/Bankier family as I've been doing English ancestors - they have been a bit easier to find than Scottish ones!!
Your questions have prompted me to look again at some emails from the person who gave me the information as I think she has more to tell. I'll put the info up on Rootschat if I find anything else. :)
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Just poking my nose in again ;D
The following are the male CLEL(L)ANDS (there are further females but I won't include them as obviously they changed their surnames) in Kilsyth Churchyard:
CLELAND, William (wife Agnes Stevenson)
CLELAND, David (wife Hellen Buchanan)
CLELAND, William (wife Margaret McLean)
CLELAND, Alexander (wife Isabella Rankin)
CLELAND, Alexander (wife Agnes Tunnoch)
CLELLAND, Alexander (wife Margaret Forrest)
CLELLAND, Duncan (wife Mary Thom)
And in Kilsyth Cemetery:
CLELAND, George (wife Isabella Lindsay)
CLELAND, John (wife Ann Cuthill)
CLELAND, John (wife Janet Young)
There may well be a lot more Clel(l)ands in the Cemetery, but these are the only ones I have in my records.
Anne
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Good luck Judith. Let us know how you do.
Thank you Anne. You poke your nos in anytime you want.
I'll take a look at the names and see if I can come up with anything. I appreciate your help (as always).
McCann
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Hi Anne and McCann - so nice to find two like-minded Rootschatters!
I found a website
http://www.paperclip.org.uk/kilsythweb/history/archivesources/pre_1855_inscriptions.htm
with transcriptions of gravestones from Kilsyth Old Churchyard which gives the following Clelands:
81 FS 4)2; 1827; W. FREW; E. BENNY; J FREW; I CLELAND
219 (FS) David CLELAND 18 Oct 1838 age 28, by wife Hellen BUCHANAN, gs David C 19 Dec 1933 ae 9
239 (FS) 1837 J. FREW & I. CLELAND ...HENDRIE ... (FREW) 10 (July) 1760 age 70
279, 284 do not seem to be in the list
292 1855 William CLELAND & Margaret MCLEAN
309 1862 Alex CLELAND 17 March 1859, 75 yr, wife Margaret FORBES 22 March 1862, 76 yr, son Duncan at Cadder 2 June 1875 63 yr, (wife Mary THOM, son Alex 11 February 1842 4 1/2)
337 1835 Alex FREW & Mary MARSHALL; Farquhar TUNNOCH, wife Helen FREW, Alex CLELAND 28 September 1919, wife Agnes TUNNOCH 14 January 1922
360 David CLELAND farmer Arnrae died Bridge of Alan 27 April 1921, 73 yr; bos Alex at Genoa 13 May 1879, 20 yr; William at Arnbrae 17 October 1881, 24 yr; Siss Jeanie CLELAND at Kirkintilloch 24 August 1926 72 yr, Agnes CLELAND there 27 April 1927, 82 yr
365 1829 John CLELAND & Janet MORISON, lying separately on this stone, John CLELAND 30 August 1905, 24 yr from Leith workers municipal committee (KGB has - 1829 John CLELAND , Craigends, transferred 1846 to his son Robert, weaver Old Town
394 (fs NEXT 393) 1733 AF AR; Alex FERGUS, Eh CLELAND (KGB has 1737 Alex FERGUS in Inchlee
The website says that the transcriptions were believed to have been surveyed in 1969, and the source of the transcriptions is uncertain.
Some of these are the ones you have, Anne and I guess some of them would have deteriorated more over the last 40 years.
Hope to phone my contact during the next week.
Cheers, Judith
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Hi Judith,
I believe these transcriptions were taken from Mitchell's 'West Stirlingshire Monumental Inscriptions, pre-1855', the Churchyard was surveyed by them in May 1969.
I have a copy of this book and am quite happy to do look-ups if anyone wants them. I will say however, they are not 100% accurate/reliable and the transcriptions are only what they 'thought' the inscriptions were. I'm not decrying their work as these books are an invaluable research source.
The inscriptions are all abbreviated and can quite often appear to mean a different thing as to what the stones actually have inscribed on them. I have photos and my own transcriptions of most of the stones listed but I ALWAYS say that the inscriptions are my 'interpretation'.
You'll see from the above list (FS). This means that the stone is a Flat Stone and about 50% of these are now either so badly eroded (completely covered or have sunk beneath ground level) that any inscriptions are lost. The ones which are still 'just' legible, are only readable depending on the angle of the sun - and that's if it's shining!!
The attached photo shows part of the Churchyard and just beyond it is the Cemetery.
Anne
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Judith and Anne:
That is all so interesting. Thank you for the information.
The names all seem so close, I wish I could find a connection.
My ggg gmother, Elizabeth Cleland (nee Paterson) had a sister Elizabeth Frew. So the names are there, but this lot seems to be from and in Lanark. I'll keep up the search.
Regards.
McCann
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Hi Anne and McCann
Oh Anne, what a beautiful place surrounded by the wooded hills. thank you for posting the photo. I went back a step or two in the web address and it seems to be a Kilsyth history site.
My goodness, am I confused with all these Bankiers and Clelands, to say nothing of a Leishman or two and the Jane/Jean/Janet bit! I note that the three surnames are on the WW1 and WW2 memorials. Added to that is the fact that almost all of the records here in Australia use the "Clelland" spelling.
I think some concentrated sorting and digging on my part is called for!
Judith
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Hi Judith,
I'm glad you liked the photo!
Regarding the Cleland/Clelland variations - I wouldn't discount either of them as more than likely they are one and the same. When you consider that it wasn't that long ago, it was really only the most educated who were able to read and write so they recorded surnames they way they sounded - single 'L' or double 'LL', doesn't make a difference in the pronunciation.
You may be interested in the following sites:
The Scottish War Memorials Forum: (Kilsyth Civic Memorial) http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=1067&mforum=warmemscot
The Scottish War Grave Forum: (Kilsyth Cemetery) http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=511&highlight=kilsyth&mforum=scottishwargraves
The Scottish War Graves Forum: (Kilsyth Churchyard) http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=215&highlight=kilsyth&mforum=scottishwargraves
All the photographs can be downloaded free or if higher resolution copies are required, the people responsible for uploading them are quite happy to supply high resolution copies. All you need to do is register on each of the sites (again free) and ask.
I haven't checked through the war graves to see if any of your names are there - that can be a wee job for you when you get a chance. The photos are not only of CWGC burials (men/women buried in Kilsyth), but of family gravestones as well (men/women buried elsewhere but listed on family stones).
You'll probably notice quite a few of the photos are mine, so if you find anything of interest, don't hesitate to get in touch.
Anne
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Still haven't made contact with my source, however on going back to his death cert I find that my David Cleland's father is Alex and his mother Margaret Forbes, so their gravestone must be this one:
309 1862 Alex CLELAND 17 March 1859, 75 yr, wife Margaret FORBES 22 March 1862, 76 yr, son Duncan at Cadder 2 June 1875 63 yr, (wife Mary THOM, son Alex 11 February 1842 4 1/2)
from my previous post.
Anne, can you tell me - would the 1862 mentioned after the index number (309) be the date of the stone (as it fits with the death of Margaret Forbes)? Do you have this one on your records?
There seems to be this connection with Cadder and Lanarkshire. Is/was Cadder in Lanrkshire in the 1800s?
J
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Hi Judith,
The 309 doesn't mean anything apart from it being the 309th stone on the list when the survey was done.
(This confirms that the MI's were copied from the Mitchell's pre-1855 MI's, so source is not unknown!!)
I've got photos of this stone - did I miss it out before??
Anyway, the MI's in this book are abbreviated and can sometimes lead to confusion (and once again confirms the 'unknown' source). The actual inscription reads:
1862 Erected by Duncan Clelland and Mary Thom his wife in memory of their son
ALEXANDER CLELLAND who died on the 11th February 1842 aged 4½ years
Also his parents ALEXANDER CLELLAND who died on the 17th March 1869 aged 75 years
Also his wife MARGARET FORREST who died on the 22nd March 1862 aged 76 years
Also the above DUNCAN CLELLAND who died at Cadder on the 2nd June 1875 aged 63 years
The date of 1862 could either refer to the date the lair/plot was purchased, the year the stone was erected or the year of death of an individual, so in this case, I think it would be the year the stone was erected and co-incides with the year Alexander (Senior) died.
If you send me your personal e-mail by PM, I'll send you copies of the photos.
As regards Cadder - I think it was in Lanarkshire but the boundaries change so much that I wouldn't like to say definately.
Anne
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Hi All
I have lots of information about these lines. Alexander Clelland and Margaret Forbes are my 3g grandparents. I've yet to study all the previous posts to see what information would be most useful.
Maybe if you post specific questions then I can send through what I have.
The Duncan Clelland mentioned is the son of Alexander and Margaret Forbes and the brother to the David Clelland who married Jean Bankier.
There were two Clelland brothers who married two Bankier sisters - James married Mary Bankier (my 2nd grandparents) and David married Jean. There was another Bankier sister Janet who first married James Tainsh and then married Alexander Clelland - illegitmate son of James and David's sister Janet.
The Mary Thom who married Duncan Clelland is my second great grand aunt - it all gets really exciting when you work it all out.
I'm very happy to share and so pleased to find so many people interested in this line.
Kind regards
Jeanette
PS Cadder is in Lanark.
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Hi Cousin Jeanette!
So nice to make contact. It's the witching hour here so I'm off to bed and will have to have a good re-read of all this tomorrow.
The difficult bit I find is that David's wife's Christian name is Jane on all documents in Australia so all these Jane/Jean/Janets are a tad confusing to me! Added to the spelling Cleland and Clelland! The first child of David and Jane born in Australia is registered as Cleland, with all later registrations births, marriages and deaths using Clelland.
Will get back to this later in the week!
Cheers, Judith
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The IGI https://familysearch.org/search/collection/igi lists 9 children of Alexander Cleland and Margaret Forbes
Robert, baptised 5 Aug 1808, Kilsyth
Duncan, baptised 25 Feb 1810, Kilsyth
Duncan, baptised 9 Feb 1812, Bothkennar, Stirlingshire
Alexander, baptised 6 March 1820, Kilsyth
John, baptised 17 Feb 1822, Kilsyth
Janet and James, baptised 25 July 1824, Kilsyth
Andrew, baptised 1 April 1827, Kilsyth
David, baptised 16 August 1829, Kilsyth
There are a couple of oddities about this. First, why was the second Duncan (presumably the first one had died) baptised in Bothkennar? And second, there is a gap of 8 years between Alexander and John. Were there no more children, or were there others whose baptism records have not survived?
Note that the eldest son was named Robert and the second son was Duncan. So it would be reasonable to expect Alexander's father to be Robert and Margaret's to be Duncan.
I see that in the 1851 census transcription at FreeCEN http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl there is a Clelland family at Hilton Cottages, Cadder consisting of Alexander, 66, iron miner, born Kilsyth, wife Margaret, 64, born Callander, Perthshire, sons Andrew, 24 and David, 21, and grandson Alexander, 9.
In the 1841 census Andrew Cleland, 14 and David Cleland, 11, were servants in the household of Thomas Duncan, Wester Duletor (now spelled Dullatur), Cumbernauld.
Alex Clelland, 50, Margaret, 5, James, 13, Christian, 20 and Janet, 13, were at Bridge end, Kilsyth. I would want to look at the original of this, because it looks as if Margaret's age is wrong. James and Janet's ages are spot on. Christian is interesting. In 1841, ages of those over 15 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years. So Christian would have been born between 7 June 1816 and 6 June 1821 - exactly in the gap in the baptisms above.
Presumably you have already got the death certificates of Alexander Clelland (d 1869) and Margaret Forrest or Clelland (d 1862) so you know the names of their parents?
From the census it looks as if Alexander might have been the son of Robert Clelland and Janet Finlay, baptised in Kilsyth on 25 January 1784.
The IGI lists 8 sons of Robert and Janet
David, baptised 18 Feb 1770
John, baptised 12 April 1772
Andrew, baptised 27 Dec 1773
James, baptised 14 July 1776
Robert, baptised 8 June 1781
Alexander, baptised 25 Jan 1784
William, baptised 5 August 1787
Peter, baptised 2 Jan 1791
Odd that there are no daughters listed. On the other hand, the IGI is notoriously unreliable, being neither 100% comprehensive nor 100% accurate. There are parishes where whole swathes of records were missed out of the IGI, and even some where baptism of one sex are listed but not those of the other sex. As always with the IGI, I would plan to look at the original records, either on Scotland's People or on microfilm at a local LDS Church Family History Centre.
The IGI also says that Robert Cleland, son of David Cleland and Jean Laing, was baptised in Kilsyth in 1742. This looks credible (Robert's eldest son seems to have been David) but I would not trust this information - I'd want to track down where it came from before believing it.
Cadder does belong to Lanarkshire, barring the odd minor boundary change. Glasgow is in the county of Lanark, also known as Lanarkshire (but never 'County Lanark' or 'Lanark County'), and not to be confused with the burgh (town) and parish of Lanark, from which the county takes its name. (The burgh is within the parish and the parish is within the county.)
There is useful information about which parishes are where in Lanarkshire at http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/LKS/
As background reading, the Statistical Accounts of Scotland, are online at http://edina.ac.uk/stat-acc-scot/ - use the 'Brows scanned pages' link to avoid having to sign up. These are a set of descriptions of the topography, population, history and economic activity of every parish in Scotland, the original one written in the 1790s and the New Statistical Account in the 1830s.
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Thank you very much for this wonderful added information. I'll need a while to absorb it all. I haven't looked at this branch of the family for a while so I need to 'get my head around it' and unfotunately, at present, real life is getting in the way of the search for ancestors!!
I very much appreciate the time you have spent on this. Judith