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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: kerryb on Wednesday 19 March 08 15:54 GMT (UK)
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Ok guys, I've started a new thread for the searching for the Trease/Traies family.
This is continued from this thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,237289.new.html#new which no doubt Twilight will lock at some suitable stage.
Kerry
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Hi kerry
found you ! ...
trying to find the connection for Twilight's Pearce family ...Elizabeth Treayes (1819) married William Pearce (1819) s/o Edward Pearce and Sarah Tucker.
this is from twilight today on part 1;
"Also found an Edward Pearce, born Falmouth, Cornwall, Caulker, on HMS Achille, states that he was at Trafalgar. This I find rather exciting, as Elizabeth Treays married William Pearce who was son of an Edward Pearce , "caulker in the dockyard".I wonder if this Edward was connected? Could be William's grandfather, but proving it may be very difficult. More fun to be had!"
deb
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hi
found this Edward, possible father of William pearce who married Elizabeth Treays. the info she found indicates maybe the earlier pearce's being born in Cornwall ...
IGI
Edward PIERCE
24 APR 1796 Saint Mellion, Cornwall
parents Edward Pierce and Elizabeth
twilight ...have you found William's parents on censuses?
deb
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hi ...back again
going after some older ones ... per Bob's info;
sp-Elizabeth (Betsey) Masters she married James Traies
1851 Census Elizabeth Traies, abt 1777 , Southwark?, Devon, England, Mother-in-law , Bermondsey , Surrey, living with daughter Mellony and family.
1855 d. Sep. Qtr. 1855 Bermondsey R.D., London. [Elizabeth Traies, , 1855, Jul-Aug-Sep, Bermondsey (1837-69), London, Surrey.]
I don't know if this is her in 1841
High street crediton
John Traies 75 shoemaker Y
Elizabeth Traies 72 Y
James had died in 1808 ...could she be living with his brother, john
eekk just checked again ,,,, james' brother john was married to an Elizabeth ... must be them in the 1841. They are under TRACES.
deb :-\
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per Bob's info
Emma Jane TRAIES d/o CHARLES TRAIES and EMMA nee GARDINER
1859 c. 1May1859 Westminster St Martin in the Fields (IGI).
1861 Census Emma Traies, age 3, Westminster, Middlesex, England, Daughter , Westminster St Martin in the Fields
1880 m. 1880 Emma Traies and William Gardner? (St George Hanover Square RD Oct-Nov-Dec 1880 1a 733)
1881
Lambeth , 99 White hart street
William Gardner 34 cab hackney carriage driver b Adderbury , Oxon
Emma J wife 22 b Marylebone
I think this is them in 1891
Paddington, London
Cironceston St?
William GARDINER 45 cab driver b Oxfordshire, Aylesbury
Emma 32 b London
William G 8 b Kensington
Thomas j 5 b kensington
Chares 3 b kensington
Emma L 1 b Marylebone
Annie 5 weeks "
hummmmmmmmmm ...would be nice if I could see them in 1901 ...will look further
deb
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I've been looking at Jane Traies, sister to my Emma, daughter of Samuel, son of James.
I think she married Samuel Sanders March 1865, Kensington vol - 1a page - 76.
Found them both together on 1871 census RG10 48 34 60 at Rillington Place, Kensington.
Samuel Sanders, age 31, Carpenter born Uffenden?? Devon
Jane Sanders, age 29 born Kingsland
Did anyone live in Kensington apart from Traies ::) ::)
Kerry
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1881
RG11 41 78 6
14 Rillington Place, Kensington
Samuel Sanders, age 41, Carpenter born Devon
Jane Sanders, age 39 born Kingsland
I wonder if they are who Charles, her older brother was visiting when he died in Kensington as discovered last night.
Kerry
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ummm
kerry, didn't the Roffe's live in Kensington , trying to remember
good deduction tho' .... had you found Jane before ?
BTW ...what do you think of Emmma Jane Traies marrying a carriage driver ...seems like a lot of the family were in the coachman/cab trade .
deb
added ... I think there is an Uffington in Devon
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Hi all
I won't be posting any further messages until after Easter. My son and family are expected to arrive this evening and will be here until next Tuesday. So speak to you next week some time.
Daniel is four and Maria is two - so I'll be kept busy for the next few days!
Have a good Easter
Best wishes
Bernice
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Hi Deb
Found the 1891
RG12 25 111 41
again at 14 Rillington Place, Kensington
Samuel Sanders, 51, Carpenter, born Uffcolme, Devon - that one was readable and I think I've heard of it
Jane Sanders, 49, born Shoreditch
Not found Jane before so quite pleased to have found her! They do seem to stick in the same trades.
Kerry
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Hi all
I won't be posting any further messages until after Easter. My son and family are expected to arrive this evening and will be here until next Tuesday. So speak to you next week some time.
Daniel is four and Maria is two - so I'll be kept busy for the next few days!
Have a good Easter
Best wishes
Bernice
Have a lovely Easter yourself Bernice and enjoy the running around, there will be plenty of it :) :)
Kerry
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Hi Bernice ...
Have a great Easter ... enjoy the children ;D 8)
Kerry ...yes there is def. an Uffcombe maybe Ulfcombe , which is what I thought of first. But the 1871 , didn't look anything like having a 'combe' on the end ...LOL
hey ..glad you found her ! No children though :-\
deb
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I can't find either the 1901 or deaths for either of them and A******y has started misbehaving!!
Kerry
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Hi
Still waiting for the family to arrive - takes about 5 hours travelling. So having finished making beds, tidying up etc. I looked to see if there were further messages about TRAIES.
I saw the one from Kerry about the people at 14 Rillington Place, Notting Hill, Kensington. Wondered if Kerry knew the significance of Rillington Place. I can still remember the name from the 1950's. Did you know that just two doors away at 10 Rillington Place lived Reginald John CHRISTIE? No, thank God, Christie was unconnected to the TRAIES family - he was one of the most notorious murderers of all time!!
Living in a flat in the same house was Timothy EVANS. EVANS wife and child were found strangled, EVANS confessed to the murder of his wife and was executed in 1950. In 1952 the wife of CHRISTIE seemd to suddenly disapear and about a year later CHRISTIE moved from the flat. New tenants couldn't understand the smell in the flat!! CHRISTIE's wife was found buried underneath the floorboards - strangled! Further searching of the house and garden revealed three further bodies of prostitutes who had vanished in 1951/2. ChRISTIE was hanged in 1953. The name of Rillington Place was changed to Ruston Close as Rillington Place became a most 'undesirable' place to live.
No-one knows why EVANS confessed and if he did in fact kill his wife. In the circumstances it seems unlikely that two murderers lived in the same house at the same time. EVANS had been hanged, many people thought there had been a miscarriage of justice. It was mainly as a result of this case that the death penalty was abolished!
Hope you don't mind this being 'off the point' - just shows you never know what will turn up next!!
I really am signing off until after Easter now,
Hope you enjoyed your bedtime story!!
Bernice
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Hi Bernice
Thanks for the bedtime story ...WOW how absolutely interesting ...I must say I am one of those people who loves a murder or two.
My people come from Devon and Cornwall ..I was brought up on the 'Moors Murders' .....
deb
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How interesting and explains why I couldn't find Rillington Place on a modern map!
I vaguely remember hearing the name Christie, must have read about it somewhere.
Kerry
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Right certificates have arrived this morning!
Firstly death certificate for James Traies
Registration district St George Hanover Square, sub district Belgrave
24th October 1855
St Georges Hospital
James Traies
Maile
40 years
Tin Plate Worker (Master)
Old stricture of Urethrea Extravasation? of Urine (1 week) Diseased Kidney
Lucy Traies present at the death
2 Bond Street, Chelsea
26th October 1855
These certificates don't get any easier to read do they?? ::) ::)
I think that must be our James, son of James.
Kerry
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Marriage certificate for daughter of Samuel and Elizabeth
12867 at parish Church of St James marland?? Kensington
10 March 1867
John Saunders Hinton 20 Bachelor, Carpenter, 5? Sussex Terrace, Kensington Bank Road, North ?? father - James Hington unreadable rank that looks like Farmer with a 6 in the middle??
Annie Hannah Traies 20 Spinster, 5 Johnson Street, father Samuel Traies Tin Plate Worker
Witnesses Samuel Traies and Elizabeth Traies.
Kerry
Bernice and Bob - would you like copies?? I can scan and email if you pm email address
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hi kerry
I wonder why Hannah Caroline always went by Annie Hannah? I still cannot find her and her 2nd husband John Cottrell and her 2 boys in 1891 ...
can you see them?
deb
ps... glad the certs arrived :)
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I'll have a search Deb.
Oh BTW good morning ::) ::)
I've been busy catching up on adding all this information to my tree and not getting very far, not in the mood today.
I've never heard of Caroline being shortened to Annie or Anne, do you think her parents named her that for baptism and then decided it was too grand or they didn't like it and they changed it to Annie??
Kerry
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Well I'm having no success at all. Can't find deaths or census for any of them. Hmm :-\
Kerry
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Hepburn very kindly found for me Jane and Samuel Sanders on the 1901 census in Kensington
RG13 23 106 20 at Clarenden Road.
They were transcribed as Landers ::) ::)
Now apart from their deaths, I have the full set.
Kerry
What was the other one we couldn't find??
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Apart from me, everybody seems to have been very busy and done remarkable research. I am still catching up on it all but as a start I hopefully got the new information added to the website today. At least the bad weather has put a stop to any thoughts of gardening.
Deb - your finding Lucy J Roffe under Edwards is awesome - later I think we should do a write up on this research and how items like that were found - you are a great asset to this family research team.
Twilight - Re Edward Pearce - do you know when William Pearce's father died? - there is an 1849 PCC will for an Edward Pearce "shipwright" of Portsea.
Has anybody any ideas about the father of Eliza Pearce wife of Richard Gynn Trease of Warbstow Cornwall? The most likely candidate spooked me a bit in view of recent Roffe finds - appears to be a George Pieris - wait for it "cabman of Paddington/Marylebone". There is also another coincidence with the appearance of BOLT relatives for both Eliza and Margaret Pearce.
I've added details of Edward and Eliza Pearce onto a "Mystery Page" on the website -
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txr/txr_mystery.htm
I hope to get the TREASE website up to date in the next week with the missing information posted about 15 Rootschat pages ago plus further information on George Pearce and Emma Pearce's husband missed first time round.
Bob
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Hi Bob
Nice to see you again ;D Thanks for your kind words ... :-*
I love the mystery page !!.... there was something I wanted to remember to figure out ... I will go back to part one and see if I can find it .... maybe it, too, could be added to the' mysteries'
Happy Easter everyone !
deb
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Happy Easter to you too Deb and Bob!
Thanks for all your help Deb from me too, you so often see that which I miss or give up on and I really appreciate it.
Bob there's a few challenges on the mystery page ;D
I am looking forward to my second scavenger hunt which starts this week. ;D
Kerry
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Hi kerry
..thanks! I love helping .... This is what I wanted to remember ...quoting from part 1 ....
reply # 162
re;Frederick Henry TRAIES = Sophia Barnes
1843 b. 18Dec1843
Bob has him in all censuses except 1891 added just seen 1861 and 1871 also missing ...will look
1891;
Hayes , Middlesex
Providence Cottages
Susan Phillips head wid 33 dressmaker b Uxbridge, Middlesex
Frederich H Traies border 47 gas fitter b kensington
In 1901 Fred and Susannah Phillips are still together and both still widowed. (he is a whitesmith )
Bob has Sophia dying in 1918 in Uxbridge , but Fred is already a widower in 1891
so where is Sophia in 1891 and 1901?
added Just found Fredk H Traies (transcribed TRAIAS) in 1861 with his parents ..Henry and sarah A nee Ovens
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reply # 182
just a reminder to myself ...
* Sophia Traies wife of Frederick needs to be found (Bob has Sophia dying in 1918 in Uxbridge , but Fred is already a widower in 1891.)
deb
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Hi Deb
Brilliant!
Have you got the reference for Fred and Susan in 1901?
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
ref ;
RG13/1180 18 28
Trying to figure out who Edith Elizabeth Traies is . B 1886 D 1891...
Found a John Trace with wife Grace M and children in 1891...
John = 33 b Taunton Devon
Grace M = 31 b city of London
Percy J =12 islington
Ethel J = 4 "
space between the 2 kids for Edith Elizabeth
John , the dad is a Stage carriage driver :o
check back ...found a marriage of John Trace = Grace maria Hill in devon 1877 ... but definitely Trace .... think the only way to find out who she belongs to is to order birth cert.
However ... when looking in the middlesex area for anyone born during the 1880's with the name Tra* or tre* ...they were the only ones that stuck out to me.... back to the drawing board ...
deb ;D
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hi Bob ...
you had thought this a possible for Eliza Pearce wife of Richard Gynn Trease .
Christchurch, Marylebone (1861 Census RG9 85 54 p16)
George Paris Head age 35 cabman
Mary Paris Wife age 34
Eliza Paris Daughter age 9 b. abt 1852 Paddington Middx
Caroline Faulkner age 7 ) Nurse children
Joseph Faulkner age 4 )
I traced George the cabman back to 1851 ... :-\
He is Definitely George Paris b Hampshire 1826, he is a porter and living with Mary his wife and son John who is 7. They are living in ChristChurch Marylebone.
I have found this interesting family ...but the father is not a cabman, he is a gate porter. he has a daughter named Eliza Pearse , about the right age;
RG9/373 fol 152B p 3...have a look
Also I did find Eliza in 1871
North petherwin, Launceston , Devon
Eliza PEARCE unm 15 b Middlesex Westminster. She is working as a domestic servant for the Gregory family who hail from WARBSTOW and JACOBSTOW
deb :)
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Hi guys
I have been going through Pallot's trying to find marriages for our Mystery Traies men ...
There was one transcibed as Geo TREYS= Francis BROWN , St Pancras 1836 .... on the original it is Wm Geo Treys.... do you have a missing William anywhere ? ::) :-\ ;D
deb
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reply # 182
just a reminder to myself ...
* Sophia Traies wife of Frederick needs to be found (Bob has Sophia dying in 1918 in Uxbridge , but Fred is already a widower in 1891.)
deb
Hi Deb and all.
Just got five minutes to myself and have been catching up on messages.
Re. the missing Sophia TRAIES.
Could the following be what you are looking for:-
Death
Dec 1883 quarter Kensington RD 1a 110
Sophia TRICA age 55
This Sophia would have been born in about 1838. This age agrees with the Sophia TRAIES who married Frederick. The 1881 census for Frederick and Sophia gives the place of birth of Sophia TRAIES as Penzance, Cornwall.
When she married Frederick Henry TRAIES she had married as Sophia CARNE (not BARNES). I can find the birth of a Sophia CARNE in Cornwall in 1837 which seems to fit with the name of CARNE as being the correct name. I suggest that the Sophia TRICA on the death index in 1883 is in fact Sophia TRAIES, wife of Frederick, thus making him a widower on the 1891 and later.
Bernice
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Hi Bernice
Thanks for that ... hopefully it is the correct Sophia which will then put me out of my misery ...LOl
Am having a look around the National Archives and found this , which may be William Henry Roffe's father , John. William Henry married Jane Traies ...believe it or not I still cannot find them and their children in 1851 ... :-\
NA:
Royal Hospital Chelsea: Soldiers Service Documents WO 97/527/92
JOHN ROFFE Born TUNBRIDGE, Kent Served in 35th Foot Regiment Discharged aged 28 . JOHN ROFFE Born TUNBRIDGE, Kent Served in 35th Foot Regiment Discharged aged 28 35th Foot: Pet - Sme
Date range: 1826 - 1836.
ummm maybe not ... looking at the dates ...it doesn't work out ... this John b c 1808 , William Henry born circ 1822.... :-\
deb
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He's bound to be related Deb, I think that is where George and William came from - Tunbridge Wells.
Well done Bernice, I bet that is our Sophia
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
Nice to see you :)
I am not having much luck today ... spotted something Bob does not have ;
Lucy Ann TRAIES d/o James Traies and Lucy Brown ......1851/2 b ?
birth;
Lucy Ann Traies Mar q 1852 Chelsea vol 1a p 132
deb ;D
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Oh brilliant :D another one I can cross off the list, I started working through all the children of James adding the information to my family tree and the census returns and noted that one to check out. Mind I didn't get very far, it is so cold here all I wanted to do this afternoon was curl up under a duvet with a good book.
OH told me I needed some exercise ::) ::) Probably true but I hate this cold wind :(
Kerry
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Deb's Eliza Pearce 1871 census entry undoubtedly refers to our Eliza and narrows Middx down to Westminster parish where there is a birth recorded for Eliza Pearce in March Quarter 1855 - I've passed your information back to the relative researching that side of the family who will probably get the birth cert first and then decide about the 1861 census return - the Indian connection on that return points to that George having served in the Army or Navy. Thanks Deb - I'll let you know the outcome.
I'll try and get the TRAIES website up to date again tonight with Sophia's correct details - Lucy Ann Traies etc. TRICA is a weird transcription error - it seems TRAIES is more often mistranscribed than not. Then I'll do Twilight's update plus the people Deb found over a month ago now!
Bob
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Eliza Pearce update:-
Last post:-
Per marriage cert her father George was a cabman now deceased.
Most likely fit in 1871 census for her father:-
Gate Porter at the Surrey County Lunatic Assylum for Pauper Lunatics in Wandsworth.
He is recorded as a. 40 born Middlesex, Fulham. (sounds like something out of Charles Dickens)
His wife Eliza is recorded as a. 27 born Ireland.
In the househould beside Eliza are 3 other daughters, the oldest being born 'India, Madras, Bangalore' and the youngest Kent, Chatham.
Also in the household were Amelia Johnson, 54, widow (George's mother-in-law) born Kent, Deal and Virginia Johnson, 21, unmarried, (George's sister-in-law) born India, Madras.
Update:
1. A search was made to find George Pearce's widow and children in the 1881 Census returns. This went better than expected, George was there as well! It appears George and Eliza were both alive in 1881 and had living with them a further three daughter and two sons!
2. Further reseach of the 1871 census:-
Eliza, 15 was the Domestic Servant to Michael and Mary Gregory in Copthorne, North Petherwin. He was a tailor and grocer. A possible connection is that just down the road at Brazacott Cross was John Pearce, 67, unm., retired farmer.
3. The possible birth cert for Eliza is to be ordered.
Bob
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Hi everyone
That's a great update , Bob ... glad she was the right Eliza ! ;D
i have been doing a little more with the tr**s family ...
Don't know if you have this ;
Arthur C Johnson b 1882 s/o Lucy Ann TRAIES and Robert Chaplin Johnson, is not with his parents in 1901 ... the rest of the children are.
found him....1901; Arthur C Johnson, single , 19, Gunner b Cambs ~ on board the vessel~ Magnificient in the port of Gibralter... unfortunately i don't see any Admiralty records for him on national Archives yet :-\
deb
added ~ Bob the census where you have george pearce the gatekeeper, aged 40 is the 1861 not the 1871 ;)
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Hi Deb,
No don't have the Arthur C Johnson 1901 return - will include that - yet another Royal Navy person to add to the PRO Kew list.
By the1871 census that George Pearce had gone up market and was Drill Sergeant at King Edwards School for boys at Godalming.
Over the weekend I posted a lot more information on the William Traies & Mary Bond family tree - an interesting family. I am gradually retrieving and adding where appropriate the TR**S census returns you posted that did not belong to KerryB's James TRAIES.
Regards,
Bob
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Hi Bob and Deb
Just to let you know, a kind rootschatter Dawn is visiting the LMA next week and on her list to check is to see if she can find the marriage of James and Hannah.
Perhaps you would like to join me in crossing fingers ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
Kerry
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Fingers crossed.
bob
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Hi Kerry
i have everything crossed , including my eyes ... LOL ::) 8) Good luck!!
hi Bob
I think I found George Pearce in the 1841 census in Middlesex, with his family ...guess what ...he was a COACHMAN .... ;D :o
In the beginning when we were on the hunt for Twilights people ..Margaret Olvar ...I could find 'lttle stories/histories on your site ... don't know how to explain them properly .... I can't seem to find them anymore ... invariably when I want to get onto the Tra**s family tree I enter through the 'backdoor" ...ie; the Mystery section ..... advise please
deb ...honourary Traies family member ;D
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ooo guys ..I am sooo excited re; tthis part of the family :
JOHN TRAIES and ELIZABETH nee KERSLAKE..their daughter Susanna TRAIES married Richard CHALLICE ..all in Thorverton ...that's where my Caprons and Middletons come from ...
BTW found this for 1841
High Street Crediton
Richard Challice 55 sadler Y
same house
John Traies 79 shoemaker Y
Elizabeth 72 Y
so it looks like Richard is living in the same house as his parents-in-law...I had posted about them before ...never noticed Richard ...oops sorry
deb
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Blimey ...this is the worst one :o
I see that you did not have Samuel Traies who married Elizabeth lock, in the 1851;
from Bob's tree:
Samuel TRAIES 1791 c. 5Oct1791 Crediton Samuel son of John and Elizabeth TRAIES IGI C050743)
1823 Samuel Traies, Master of Workhouse, Camberwell (Pigot’s London & Provincial Directory, 1823/4)
1831 m. 29Mar1831 St. Giles, Camberwell, Surrey. Samuel TRAIES and Elizabeth LOCK (IGI M06262)
1841 Census Finsbury St George The Martyr Samuel Traies 45 licensed victualler Elizabeth Traies 35 Hannah 25 Ind (under TRACES)
1857 d. 30Mar1857 Gravesend, Kent Samuel Traies (Gravesend RD Apr-May-Jun 1857 2a 147)
1851
Marylebone
Samuel Trueis head mar 59 dealer in beer ??? b Crediton
Elizabeth wife 45 b Surrey
Ann raberty???un 15 servant?
transcribed under SQUERI :o :o :o
HO107/1486 fol 631 p8
deb ;D ;D
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hi
you are all going to love this one ;D ;D
per Bob's info:
Jane TRAIES d/oJOHN TRAIES and ELIZABETH nee KERSLAKE
1802 b. 10May1802 ?. Source to be added
1802 c. 20Jul1802 Crediton, Devon. Jane daur John and Elizabeth TRAIES IGI C050743)
1861 Census Jane Traies, age 58, Crediton, Devon, England, Lodger , Sidmouth , Devon.
1886 d. 1Dec1886 St Thomas, Devon. Jane Traies age 84 (St Thomas RD Oct-Nov-Dec 1886 5b 32)
1886 i. Exeter Countess Weir St Lukes Cemetery, Devon
and :
Elizabeth TRAIES d/o James Traies and Elizabeth Nicks
1819 b. 1819/20 Baltimore USA
1851;
Monument lane
Kings Norton, Warwickshire
Transcribed under TRONE
Elizabeth TRAIES head unm 31 school mistress b Baltimore US
Jane TRAIES aunt unm 48 shoe dealer b Crediton Devon
Louisa Morgan sister-in-law 16 scholar at home b ?
hephiziah Morgan " " 15 " b Exeter
Jemima Morgan " " 12
HO107/2049 344 42
who are the Morgan girls ??
deb :D
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hi
further to Jane Traies b 1802 Crediton d/o JOHN TRAIES and ELIZABETH nee KERSLAKE
missing in 1871;
here she is with her sister Ann b 1811
1871
transcribed under FRANCIS
15 Walton Terrace, St Sidwell, Exeter
Sarah Gradton? head 55 ind
Jane TRAIES boarder unm 68 ind b crediton
Ann TRAIES boarder unm 59 ind b crediton
plus a servant
RG10/2063 fol 29 p52
deb ;D
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hi
more on Jane and Ann Traies; transcribed under TRAICS
1881
Topsham, Exeter
2 Mile End buildings
Miriam TRAIES head wid 50 retired school mistress b Tavistock ..who is she?
Frances E dau 20 single school teacher b Devon ?
Jane TRAIES boarder unm 78 annuitant b Crediton
Ann TRAIES boarder unm 69 annuitant b Crediton
Anna Haydon boarder 26 farmers daughter b Thorverton, Devon
plus a servant..Sarah Harrill
RG11/2142 114 19
deb :)
added ...is Anna haydon a relative of William Haydon who married Rebecca Challice d/o Susanna Traies and Richard Challice. Susanna Traies being the d/o JOHN TRAIES and ELIZABETH nee KERSLAKE ::)
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okay ...last one for this evening ;D
Elizabeth Traies b 1820, Baltimore USA
per Bob;
Elizabeth TRAIES
1819 b. 1819/20 Baltimore USA.
1861 Census Elizabeth Traies, age 40, Baltimore, Baltimore, United States, Head , Southampton All Saints , Hampshire.
1881 Census Elizabeth Traies, age 61, Baltimore, United States, United States, Unknown , Bath Cottage, Hound, Hampshire
?1891 m. 1891 South Stoneham, Hampshire. Elizabeth Traies (South Stoneham RD Jan-Feb-Mar 1891)
we have her in 1851 with Aunt Jane b 1802 Crediton. Here she is in 1871:
1871...Transcribed under TRAINES,
Hound , Hampshire
Bitterne Buth Cottage
Charles Fredk Williams head mar 60 Water color landscape artist. Teacher of drawing by correspondence b Exeter
Elizabeth TRAIUES secretary unm 51 secry formerly school teacher but invalided b Baltimore United States
Ann Bishop ser
I think she is rather interesting .... will try to find her marriage and her in 1891!
deb :)
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WOOOOOOHOOOOOO I figured this would happen
marriage ;
Elizabeth TRAIES mar q 1891 South Stoneham Hampshire
same page:
Charles Frederick Williams mar q 1891 South Stoneham Hampshire
she was his secretary in 1881!! :o ;D
deb
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1891
Hounds Hampshire
Bath cottage
Charles F WILLIAMS head mar 80 landscape painter b exeter
ELIZABETH WILLIAMS wife 71 b Baltimore , USA
Jane Smith serv
deb :D
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:)...I promise last one for tonight :D
can't find them in 1901 ...
possible deaths
-Charles Frederick Williams b 1810 died ~Dec q 1894 Southampton Hampshire
- Elizabeth Williams b abt 1820 died dec q 1894 Southampton Hampshire
- Elizabeth Williams b abt 1820 died mar q 1899 Southampton Hampshire
deb
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Blimey ...this is the worst one :o
I see that you did not have Samuel Traies who married Elizabeth lock, in the 1851;
from Bob's tree:
Samuel TRAIES 1791 c. 5Oct1791 Crediton Samuel son of John and Elizabeth TRAIES IGI C050743)
1823 Samuel Traies, Master of Workhouse, Camberwell (Pigot’s London & Provincial Directory, 1823/4)
1831 m. 29Mar1831 St. Giles, Camberwell, Surrey. Samuel TRAIES and Elizabeth LOCK (IGI M06262)
1841 Census Finsbury St George The Martyr Samuel Traies 45 licensed victualler Elizabeth Traies 35 Hannah 25 Ind (under TRACES)
1857 d. 30Mar1857 Gravesend, Kent Samuel Traies (Gravesend RD Apr-May-Jun 1857 2a 147)
1851
Marylebone
Samuel Trueis head mar 59 dealer in beer ??? b Crediton
Elizabeth wife 45 b Surrey
Ann raberty???un 15 servant?
transcribed under SQUERI :o :o :o
HO107/1486 fol 631 p8
deb ;D ;D
Have we finally worked out who this Samuel is then? At last, he has been cropping up for ages and it would be good to fit him in somewhere.
Kerry
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Kerry - here is the link to Samuel's family now added to website:-
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17w_mb.htm#18j_ek
Deb,
Although I've put the TRAIES family on the TREASE website, it is not proven/known that the two families have the same ancestry so I've kept them totally separate - to get to the TREASE main genealogy chart use this link - you can then branch all over the place - if you then click underlined names you can get to family histories:-
http://www.trease.org.uk/trt/trt00.htm
I'll go through your posts in detail later in the week- one thing I noticed you have found that is of enormous interest is the marriage to the artist Charles Frederick Williams - that is very very interesting and thank you. William TRAIES the artist is part of this family but research so far does not indicate he descended through William and Mary .
Re the Challice family of Thorverton - I should have put a question mark alongside it - it was not on the original research done into the family and was added by me when I built the website as this Richard Challice seemed to fit.
Bob
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The Miriam Traies in the 1881 census is I think Miriam nee Cartwright? the wife of William Hugh Downman Traies who appears to be the son of William Traies the artist. I believe his brother John Francis Traies was also known as Frank Downman Traies another artist.
I have not discovered anything more about Charles Frederick Williams so maybe he did not become well known - but sometimes these artists used pseudonyms. There appears to be a highly respected Williams family of artists but have not fitted him in. There was also an artist called Townsend in Exeter - could he be related to the Townsend in James's tree?
All very interesting.
Bob
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I found an interesting website some time ago with some of William Traies paintings on it. I was quite impressed.
Kerry
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morning everyone
just getting my morning fix of coffee and 'hunting'
Thought I would fill in some gaps ;
this is re; Mary was born during 1790 at Quethiock, Cornwall the daughter of Samuel and Mary nee Souther and the granddaughter of Peter and Joan nee Sharp.
Mary Treays married John WOOD...they had a daughter CLARA....from Bob:
daughter Clara Wood born 1855/6 in East Stonehouse, Devon. In 1881 Census unmarried living with parents. No later records found so far.
.........................................................
marraige:
Clara WOOD = George Frederick PENWARN
Dec q 1881 Plymouth vol 5b p551
1891
76 Belgrave Rd, Charles, Plymouth
George F Penwarn head mar 35 nurseryman b Cornwall Lezant
CLARA wife 35 b East Stonehouse
George WG 8 b Plymouth
Ethel dau 6 b Plymouth
William HR son 2 months b Plymouth
next door
Richard Penwarn head 63 nurseryman b devon Tamerton Foliott
Sarah wife 71 b slapton
Ann J dau unm 36 b Cornwall Lezant
Joseph W 30 gardener b " "
1901
14 Belgrove Rd
George Penwarn head 45 gardener ..transcribed under penVarn
Clara 45
George son 18 solicitors clerk/law
William son 10
Eliza dau 5
deb :)
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Hi
back again ... further to the children of Mary Treays married John WOOD. they had a son John G Wood b c 1859, East Stonehouse, brother to Clara....
from Bob:
son John George Wood born 1858/9 in East Stonehouse, Devon. In 1881 Census unmarried, ‘Railway Clerk’, living in Buckland Monachorum, Devon
1891
5 Lifton Villas, Charles, Plymouth
John Geo. WOOD head mar 32 wine merchant cashier b ES
Ellen Jane wife 31 b Plymouth
George J P son 8 b "
Olive G M dau 2 b "
1901
6 Brook Down terr, St Stephen, Saltash, St Germans
John G WOOD head mar 42 accountant b ES
Emma J wife 41 b Plymouth
George J P son 18 b st Andrew, Plymouth
Olive V U dau b Charles
okay the names and intials change so checked BMD
marriage:
John George WOOD = EMMA Jane CLOOKE
mar q 1882, Plymouth
births;
George John P Wood... Dec q 1882 Plymouth
olive Vera M Wood ... Mar q 1889 Plymouth
deb
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Excellent Deb
Your morning fix of coffee obviously works. I shall have to start drinking it ;D
This is all firing up my enthusiasm for a long overdue trip down to Cornwall and Devon again. Haven't been for about 5 years but I can picture so many of the places that pop up in the Trease/Traies/Trays family.
Kerry
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ooooo my !!!!
found Thomas Wood and Eliza ?? in 1851...thay had far more children !!! :o
per Bob;
son Thomas Wood was born sometime during 1814/5 in Quethiock, Cornwall. Probably by the early 1830s he had moved with his parents to East Stonehouse, Plymouth, Devon and about a decade later, when he would have been in his mid-20s he married Eliza? who had been born in Plymouth, Devon. During 1861 they were living at the same address as his parents but as a separate household. His occupation was ‘Timber Dealer’, the same as his father and he appears to have taken over the business following the deaths of his father and mother. Thomas and Eliza had at least seven children, 5 sons and two daughters during the next two decades, namely:-
William Wood born 1842/3
Elizabeth Wood born 1845/6
Thomas Wood born 1849/50
James Wood born 1851/2
Edward Wood born 1853/4
Clara Wood born 1855/6
John George Wood born 1858/9
1851
East Stonehouse
11 Providence Row ADDED In 1851 his parents John Wood and Mary Treays were at 2 Providence Place.
Thomas WOOD head mar 36 timber dealer b Quethiock
Eliza wife 33 b Plymouth
CHARLES son 14
EMMA dau 12
William son 8
ISABELLA dau 5
JOHN son 3
Thomas son 1
all children b East Stonehouse ... note Elizabeth b 1845/6 is not in 1851...
on BMD ..Isabella Wood = Mar q 1846
Eliza / Elizabeth ...a few ...will check further and see if i can see then in 1841
deb
hi Kerry ...I'm on a ROLLLLLLLLLL ...and still drinking coffee ;D
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;D
1841
Providence place , ES
Thomas WOOD 25 ??maker/worker can't make occ out Y
Eliza 25 Y
Charles 5 Y
Emma 2 Y
Thomas ? 6 months Y
deb
added ...In 1841 Thomas' parents, John Wood and Mary TREAYS are 'around the corner' with his siblings ;D There is another that Bob does not have on his tree..... he has :
*Thomas Wood was born sometime during 1814/5 in Quethiock =Eliza??
*Elizabeth Wood was born sometime during 1821/2 = George McEwan Mar q 1844
*John Wood was born sometime during 1832/3 = Elizabeth A Edwards
1841
Providence Place
John WOOD 45 merchant NO
Mary WOOD( nee Treays) 50 NO
Mary WOOD 20 NO
Elizabeth WOOD 15 NO
John WOOD 9 YES
:)
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possible marriage for Thomas WOOD
IGI;
Thomas Wood = ELIZA BALLAMY
22 NOV 1835 Saint George, Exeter, Devon
I can't see a baptism for Elizabeth Ballamy circa 1818 in Plymouth :-\ ...maybe only the birth certs of kids will reveal her maiden name!
eeekkkk just found this on IGI submitted.....
Charles Wood:
1837 East Stonehouse
parents;
Thomas McEwen and Eliza...
I havwe seen McEwan before ...but can't remember :-\ :-\
deb
added .... AHHHHAAAA ....
Thomas Wood's sister married a McEwan !
daughter Elizabeth Wood was born sometime during 1821/2 at Tideford, St Germans, Cornwall. During 1842 a marriage of Elizabeth Wood is recorded in the Stoke Damerel, Devon Registration District but at present the identity of her husband is unknown. During the period 1851 to 1871 she is recorded as Elizabeth McEwen living with her parents and her son George but not her husband. [The marriage of a George McEwen is recorded during 1844 in Plymouth, Devon.] In 1881 census she is recorded as ‘Widow’ living alone.
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BTW
There are several Submitted entries on IGI for Thomas Wood and Eliza?? children ... they all state mothers name is Eliza CAROLINE !
deb
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:)
Okay going around in circles here ...this is all assumption ... ::) :-\
IGI submitted
Elizabeth Caroline Carpenter
11 APR 1814 Sidmouth, Devon
then there is this marriage Thomas Wood ....Sept q 1840 St Thomas ...odd number of people on the page ...doing a cross reference there is this:
Eliza CARPENTER Sept q 1840 , St Thomas
I wonder if she was the 2nd wife of Thomas Wood?
Thomas's children ; (see 1841 and 1851 posted earlier)
Charles b 1837
Emma b 1839
Thomas b 1840 ..possibly died as there is a new Thomas b 1850
GAP of 4 years ... possible marriage to Eliza Carpenter 1840
William b 1843
Isabella b 1846
John b 1848
Thomas b 1850
there is a death of a Thomas Wood sept q 1844 east Stonehouse...can't find a death for Eliza .... back to the drawing board :-X :-\
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Hi everyone
After a few days of inactivity on this topic, it seems to be full steam ahead again.
I've collected several references since joining rootschat but haven't sent - not sure of their interest and what was already known to Bob. Fitting it all together must be a mammoth task!!
Firstly, some bits and pieces about William TRAIES the artist. There are loads of references to him, these are just a few I've jotted down:-
Devon Notes and Queries -
33 (8) 1977 pages 306 - 308
The ancestry of a Crediton-born artist, by G E TREASE
Wm TRAIES, Crediton and Exeter 1789 - 1872, artist Page 290 (Must check source of this, obviously incomplete but
almost certainly from another edition of Devon Notes and Queries.
Exeter. Holy Trinity. Fire insurance Policy of Henry GERVIS of Thorverton, solicitor in the West of England Fire office. of 49 Magdelen Street, occupied by William TRAIES, artist for £400.
(NB Samuel TRAIES and Jane TOWNSEND were also living in Magelen Street at the time of their deaths in 1840)
William TRAIES b. 1789 Crediton Devon died 1872 at Topsham Road (the artist). Think this came from the Sherborne and Yeovil Mercury - will check!
I've got several references to Seamens registers which may be of use seeing some of the recent posts, refer to Naval personnel (if you do not already have them). Any of them can be ordered on-line if interested.
Admiralty - Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services
19 Dec 1906
ADM/188/860
George Frederick Traies Green. born Brixton, London.
Official Number J106765 Piece 106501 - 107000 Image 265/265
25 Sept 1857
ADM/188/121
William John TRAYS. born Plymouth, Devon
Official Number 103201 Piece 103001 - 103500 Image 200/196
15 Dec 1902
ADM 188/595
Arthur TRAIES, born Kensington, London
Official Number F17569 Piece 17501 - 18000 Image 69/69
30 Sept 1881
ADM/188/765
Elder William TRAIES, born kentish Town
Official Number J59465 Piece 59001 - 59500 Image 465/463
I'll send more of my findings another time.
I'm surprised I have not heard that the registers of Marylebone that I requested through the local LDS Library ages ago have still not arrived. Geoff rang them last week, but all they could say was they will contact us as soon as they arrive. Other films we have ordered in the past have arrived in about three weeks. Marylebone must be in great demand.
I have not had any success in contacting the Hussars Forum, I mentioned some time ago and am most unimpressed with the site. I don't think it is working properly. I also sent an e-mail to the address given for enquiries and it just came straight back to me - unable to deliver. I had hoped to have learnt a bit more about where James TRAIES would have been when he served with them.
That's it for now
Bernice
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Bernice
Hi, nice to hear from you, I've been looking at another of my families over the last week just for a change. I've just emailed to you the two certificates that arrived last week. Something nice in your inbox. ;D
Kerry
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Hi
Just a few things:-
Deb - Thanks for the reference to John ROFFE, born Tonbridge that you posted recently, found in the Royal Hospital, Chelsea, Soldiers Service Documents. We were aware of it but thanks for sending it anyway. At the moment we have got no further back than knowing that the father of our George was called John, and discovered that there were more than one John ROFFE's in Tonbridge at the time. He could well turn out to be an elder brother of our George or maybe a cousin.
Bob - On your mystery TRAIES page, you mention George TRAIES of the Boadicea. I thought that Twilight had a good idea who this was. She sent a message sometime ago, saying, she had seen the will of George TRAIES and it said "now belonging to HMS Ship Boadicea. He left all to his mother Ann TRAIES now living in Stonehouse, Plymouth. The mother was also the sole executrix". (Will dated 24/1/1804).
Kerry - At last, just received a phone call saying the Marylebone film we ordered has now arrived. For various reasons, the earliest we can go and view it is next Wednesday. I hope it will help us and we have ordered the right one!! There were so many different films listed under Marylebone. I'm sure the one we ordered is already indexed which should help.
Bye
Bernice
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Hi again
Forget to say that I have also written a letter today to the Archivist at The Kings Royal Hussar's Museum. Maybe we will learn where the regiment was stationed in the years that James TRAIES was a member. It may yield a few more snippets about James TRAIES service as well - you never know, it was worth a try!
Bernice
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Bernice
I hope you get a reply from the Hussars, could be some interesting information. Let us know when and if you get a reply and good luck with the Marylebone records, lets hope we get some answers.
Kerry
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Bernice,
Thank you very much for the information. I've looked for an Ann who could have a son George on the Boadicea but can't find her. I will try and sort out the remaining family tree documents I have including that for Miriam Traies's family. Deb's post with the Morgan children referenced as sister-in-law in the census return seems to indicate we are missing
at least one daughter on this tree. The G.E.Trease in the first document you reference is the George Edward in this family history
http://www.trease.org.uk/trf/trf21g_fd
His original research from pre-internet days is the basis of the information on the website.
Apparently many of George Frederick Williams paintings are held at Southampton City Art Gallery - I've added a hyperlink to the website. I can't find any paintings of his cottage - Bath House - but there is one of the view from it - picture 787 - which you can see on the Internet. It is shame he did not do portraits! Many of the of the pictures were donated by Mr & Mrs Alfred Fellows - some as early as 1895. |Many are of Wales. I think it possible that the Fellows may have been relatives of Elizabeth or Charles who were bequeathed these when they died.
Bob
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Hi everyone
from Bob: "Deb's post with the Morgan children referenced as sister-in-law in the census return seems to indicate we are missing at least one daughter on this tree " I have found the Morgan sisters .... went back to 1851 and rechecked their POB ..it was Wales :o
1841;
Hay, Breconshire, Wales
Red Lion street
Elizabeth Morgan 48 N
John Morgan 14 Y (transcribed as being 46)
Louisa Morgan 5 Y
Hepizebu? Morgan Y
Jemimah Morgan 2 Y
There is a Elizabeth PRICE with them , 20 F S , No
next door
Susanna Price 66 Ind NO
Also in the same street is a Sarah Price and her family , she is not born in county and is an Innkeeper.
Because of Elizabeth Morgan's age , I am sure she must have had other children... I looked around and found a Charlotte Morgan aged 25 and a Ann Morgan , 14, Not born in county also in Hay, Brecon.
Also William Morgan (40) and Hugh Morgan (35) , both shoemakers, living with them is a Thomas PRICE 25, ag lab.
IGI has this ;
LOUISA MORGAN, born ; 13 OCT 1834 d/o John Morgan and Elizth.
2 christenind dates ;
30 NOV 1834 Saint John English Wesleyan, Brecon ...extracted
13 NOV 1834 Saint John English Wesleyan, Brecon ...extracted
HEPHZIBAH MORGAN born ; 27 DEC 1835 d/o John Morgan and Elizth.
chr; 21 FEB 1836 Saint John English Wesleyan, Brecon ..extracted
ALSO .... :o
Hephzibah Morgan b 27 DEC 1835 Hay, Brecon, Wales d/o John Morgan and Elizabeth
chr; 21 FEB 1836 Paternoster Row Wesleyan Methodist Registry, London extracted
So possibly John who is with elizabeth in 1841 . could possibly be her husband age 46 ... but then why would he not appear as the 'head' , ie; first to be enumerated?
maybe someone could recheck and see ...
oo found her in 1851 ... when the Morgan sisters are with Elizabeth Traies (USA) and Jane Traies (crediton ) in warwickshire.
1851
Red Lion Street, Hay
Elizabeth Morgan head wid 57 Mul??stress b IDE, DEVON
Margaret 15 a servant with her
1861
Back lane , hay, Brecon
Elizabeth Morgan head wid 69 retired maltstress b Ide Devon
Hephzibah dau unm 25 head of boarding and day school b Hay
Jemima dau unm 22 assistant in school
Grace Everard boarder 9 schilar b whitechapel London
Lucy Jones baorder 8 scholar b Brecon
plua a servant
Do you think Elizabeth Morgan = Elizabeth Traies b c 1794 Ide Devon ...
I will look further
deb ;D
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helloooo everyone
Been trying to find John Morgan's wife elizabeth (possibly Traies). Scrolled through all of Wales and London and some of Devon .... can't see a thing ... maybe this was Elizabeth's second marriage ... :-\
anyway , fortunately , we have jemima who was born after 1837 ...woohoo...hopefully her birth cert will help :)
Jemima Morgan
Dec q 1838. Hay, Breconshire, Herefordshire, Powys, Radnorshire
vol 26 p 281
Also I think by 1871 elizabeth has died ... i found Hephzibah Morgan in Upper Swinton, Worcestershire in 1871. She is 35 unmarried and the Mistress of a ladies school . She seems to be following in Elizabeth B Baltimore, USA, steps.
deb ;D
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Hi Deb,
This is all very puzzling - getting a post registration birth cert looks a good. solution. The other thing would be to check for wills which I suspect they may have left.
The sister-in-law relationship for the Morgan girls is obviously impossible - that I can cope with - but trying to work out what the relationship should be seems very problematical. You'd think that the relationship would be very close to Elizabeth b. Baltimore.
Elizabeth Morgan can't be a daughter of John and Elizabeth nee Kerslake - they lived in Crediton (Ide is effectively Exeter) and named a daughter b. 1806 Elizabeth. James and Betsey are unlikely to have named another daughter Elizabeth and they lived in Dartmouth. Like you I can't find a marriage or birth on IGI for a suitable person named TRAIES but have not looked very hard yet - could be the usual transcription errors - and there could be an earlier marriage - marriage abroad ...etc.
One possible explanation is that the Elizabeth b Baltimore is in the wrong tree - possibly should be in the Miriam TRAIES tree but there is no immediately obvious place there to fit her.
Firstly I am going to re-examine the tree I've just posted to see if I can spot any other way of fitting it together - the wills seemed to prove the tree was right but maybe it is not as watertight as it appears.
Maybe the census return is simply wrong and there is no blood relationship but that seems very unlikely.
A very puzzled Bob.
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hi again
Just following through
In 1881
egbaston. Birmingham
52 Duchess rd
Alfred Fellows head leather merchant N'hampton , Staffs
Lucy wife 46 b Hay, Brecon
HEPHZIBAH MORGAN wife's sister 44 b Hay Brecon
frances Fellows mother wid 76 b London
ellen cook ..servant
1901
Staffordshire ...Hephzibah is still with her sister Lucy and Alfred Fellows. she is 55 living on her own means.
By 1901 she is in Weston Super Mare, 65 and a boarder in a boarding house.
I think Lucy, her sister, must be Louise as I cannot find any IGI christenings for a Lucy Morgan.
we now have another way of finding out who the dad was ... marriage:
Louisa Morgan = Alfred Fellows
Dec q 1861 Stourbridge , Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands, Worcestershire
vol 6c p 281
deb :)
just seen your post Bob ..will read
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Deb
Many of the Charles Williams pictures donated to Southampton City Art Museum were donated by Mr and Mrs Alfred Fellows - some in 1895 - the year after Charles and probably Elizabeth died - possibly they were bequeathed to them.
Bob
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Well, This is turning into a little bit of a mystery ... LOL
Just found something on passenger lists ...
Ships name: ROSCIUS
departed Liverpool and arrived NY 23 feb 1839
H TREASE 40
Hannah TREASE 36
James 8
Mary A 5
Niyt ?? can't make it out ...Female 3
Rosa? 1
will try to follow them up in 1840 ...
deb
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Hi Deb
Are you getting just a little obsessed with the Trease/Traies/Trayes family ;D ;D ;) ;)
Seriously, you are doing brilliant work and I am having trouble keeping up and I just felt compelled to encourage you ::) ::) ;D ;D
Kerry
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Thanks Kerry ;D
Ummm ...obsessed ...well maybe just a little .... Maybe I should try and look for my own family for a change ... LOL ::)
deb
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I used to think that other people's families were more interesting than mine ----- till I started on the Traies family ;D
I'm just helping Aussie Jack on the Kent board, he is descended from the Roffes of Tunbridge Wells and I think connected to George and William Henry Roffe who married Ann and Jane Traies.
Small world or what! :o
Kerry
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hey , kerry
If you need some support on the Kent board ...let me know...LOL
My families seem to be very interesting , especially the gypsy side ...but I can't find them .... arrgghhhhhhh ...so I'll stick with the Tr**s , thankewverymuch ;D
deb
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Deb
Many of the Charles Williams pictures donated to Southampton City Art Museum were donated by Mr and Mrs Alfred Fellows - some in 1895 - the year after Charles and probably Elizabeth died - possibly they were bequeathed to them.
Bob
eeekkkkkk who is Charles and Elizabeth ?
:-\
added ...okay Charles Frederick Williams and Elizabeth Traies .... if the paintings are of Wales and we have Louisa Morgan (b Wales and a sister in law to Elizabeth Traies b Baltimore) marrying Alfred FELLOWS ...then all of this has to add up somehow
a mystery ...woohoo ...love them :)
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Hi Deb,
Ace detective work! It does all fit. Assume:-
James Traies died. His wife Elizabeth remarried to a Morgan - then the Morgan sisters and her share the same mother - the Elizabeth Nicks b c abt 1795.
What is wrong on the tree I put on the web is placing the 1861 census return and 1862 deaths against Elizabeth Traies nee Nicks - they must belong to a different Elizabeth TRAIES - her details will be found under Elizabeth Morgan.
Re the TREASE family who emigrated to New York - if the spelling of the surname was deliberate rather than a mistranscription or guess this could be very significant for TREASE research - could you let me know where to find the passenger list so I can study this one more carefully.
Got to rush off now,
Bob
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morning Bob
I'm back with my coffee and 'hunting hat' on ;D
This all makes sense now... wooohooo how brilliant! Did Elizabeth b Baltimore have siblings?
PM me with your email for details on passenger list ..
deb
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hi deb,
No siblings. What on earth do you put in that coffee?
Bob
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Hi
Found a really interesting one ....
TREASE, JAMES GWIN crew, chief baker, 19, 6'3", 285lbs
Nationality; USA
Race; Welsh
length of service ;1 year
shipped or engaged; 9-15-45
yes to being discharged at port; NY NY
physical ailments/peculiarities: Hospitalized
name of ship; Lambert Cadwalader
port of departure; Naples Italy
arrival date; 19 Nov 1945
Do you think this could be a mistranscrption of Gynn Trease??
deb
added ... oo I think there may be a few for him... will post if you think he's yours ...on another one his race is English.... seems he was a cook on different vessels ... very interesting ! :)
Ps ; Coffee ... black, 2 sugars ;D
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Hi everyone
Hate to say this! Examined the Marylebone Parish Registers today but apart from Ann and Samuel in 1813 (already on the IGI) no further baptisms for the TRAIES family were found.
I don't think we could have missed then - I looked from 1813 to 1827 which was the end of the film, then I searched again going backwards from 1827 to 1813. Geoff then did an identical search but neither of us found a TRAIES.
Time for a coffee now!
Bernice
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I think you must deserve a coffee after that!
What a mystery, I wonder where they were baptised if not at Marylebone. Although James could have been Stratford le Bow I think according to the papers I got. Hmmm
Kerry
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Although disappointing, it does have a positive note in that it definitively rules out that register - one down ... to go. Maybe something will turn up at the LMA.
While updating the William and Mary tree I noticed that William's will document makes reference to a Jane Kerslake wife of William Kerslake of the city of Exeter tinplateworker who went to London in 1812 in connection with the will - I wonder if our James is tied up with that family in some way - although I think tinplateworker was quite a common occupation. Following up Deb's information about Elizabeth Traies nee Nicks second family I have added quite a bit more to the website about that side of the family and the artist. He apparently was a pupil of David Cox a reknowned artist of the time and his works were liked by John Ruskin. At one time, Cox taught at a school in Hereford (close to Hay on Wye). Charles Williams appears to have still been married when Elizabeth Traies was living at the same cottage with him as his secretary..... um
Bob
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Charles Williams appears to have still been married when Elizabeth Traies was living at the same cottage with him as his secretary..... um
Nothing surprises me about this family anymore ;D
Kerry
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No more hints of impropriety at moment but I am sure we'll find something. A death certificate I requested a few years back for a death iof a 30 year old in the 1880s had cause of death - overdose of opium (by accident).
Re Deb's
Found a really interesting one ....
TREASE, JAMES GWIN crew, chief baker, 19, 6'3", 285lbs
He could be descended from John TREASE blacksmith (mother Eliza Gynn) who emigrated to Ontario Canada from Warbstow Corwall in 1871, aged 20 then - single at time of next Canadian census but then no trace.
There is also the possible H. (enry?) TREASE who emigrated to New York on the Roscius from Liverpool during the Irish Potato famine exodus. James TRAIES was out in Baltimore and probably died there, William Masters TRAIES the silversmith was in Cincinnatti for a time. I noticed a Michael, George, Richard and Peter Trease in pre War of Independence Muster Lists. I also noticed an US address TRAIES Court. I am going to check out what if anything is known of American connections with a relative next week and get back on this.
Bob
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Hi all
Just to say that we had a few days away last week and on the way home made a slight detour and visited Winchester, where the Regimental Museum of the 10th Hussars is situated.
I hoped we may have learnt where the regiment were when James TRAIES was a member. We did not find anything new though. It was only a small musuem and most of the displays were, as you may expect, devoted to their wartime activities. James only served in peacetime. They did not seem to hold any archives for the regiment there as far as I could make out.
The museum is one of three regimental museums situated in the Peninsula Barracks. The history of the Peninsula Barracks was interesting and we enjoyed just wandering around the area, looking at the old parade ground and the various buildings.
I do have some TRAIES references that I must post to the board. They may be of help to Bob or possibly Kerry.
Bye for now
Bernice and Geoff
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Hello All
Hope all is well with you.
I promised to post a few more references to TRAIES that I have come across. Maybe one or two will be of use.
Sacrament certificate 1775 - William TRAIES, Crediton QS21/1775/12
Wills on line - 1810 - John TRAIES, Liberty of the Rolls, Middx. PROB 11/1512
1828 - Rebecca TRAIES, Widow, St Lukes Middx PROB 11/1735
Estate Duty Wills - 1841 - Samuel TRAIES Topsham, Devon 1078/IRW/T/553
Court of Chancery - 6 Clerks Office
TRAIES v WIVELL 1800 C12/952/46
Sherbourne and Yeovil Mercury - 4/8/1777 - William Quiller TRAES, 20, Stonemason apprentice, Saltash eloped.
Devon and Cornwall Notes and Queries page 307. William TRAIES prosperous cordwainer in his will dated 1706 - my son Wm TRAIES may be bound apprentice to a silversmith
London Gazette -
29/12/1829 Iss. 18641 Page 2424
Notice is hereby given, that the partnership subsisting between us the Undersigned, Benjamin LINSEY and William TRAIES, of CAllum Street, in the City of London, Wholesale Bed Feather Manufacturers, is this day dissolved by mutual consent All debts owing to or by the said copartnership will be received and paid by the said Benjamin LINSEY. As witness our hands this 24th day of December 1829.
23/11/1830 Iss. 18748 Page 2457
Notice is hereby given, that the partnership subsisting between us the undersigned, Mellony TRAIES and Jane Hasledine COLE, as Milliners and Dressmakers at No 2 Compton Street, Brunswick Square, in the County of Middlesex, was dissolved by mutual consent on the 10th day of November instant, and all debts owing by and to the late partnership will be paid and received by the said Jane Hasledine COLE. As witness our hands this 17th day of November 1830.
11/6/1901 (Issue and page number not noted)
In the matter of TRAIES & Son Ltd. At an extraordinary General Meeting of the members of the above named company duly convened and held at 64 Gresham St, Bank EC in the city of London, on the 31st day of May 1901, the following extraordinary resolution was passed.
"That it has been proved to the satisfaction of this meeting that the Company cannot, by reason of its liabilities, continue its business, and that it is advisable to wind up the same, and accordingly that the company be wound up voluntarily and that Percy MASON Esq. of 64 Gresham St. in the City of London, Chatered Accountant, is hereby appointed Liquidator for the purpose of winding up.
19/5/1905, page 3627 - more about the winding up of TRAIES and Sons.
16/4/1906, page 405
Notice is hereby given, that the Parnership lately subsisting between us the undersigned, Charles TRAIES and Harold HARDY, carrying on business as General and Furnishing Ironmongers, at 75, Haverstock Hill N.W. under the style or firm of "TRAIES AND HARDY", has this day been dissolved by mutual consent. All debts due to and owing by the said late firm will be received and paid by the said Charles TRAIES, who will continue the business under the style of Charles TRAIES. As witness our hands, this 15th day of December 1906.
29/6/1928 Issue 33398 Page 18
Land Registry.
Nos 95/97/99 Ladbrook Grove, Kensington
Freehold
Edward TRAIES 8 Elgin Cres. Notting Hill W11
Further details of children of George ROFFE and Ann (nee TRAIES)
George James ROFFE. Deb mentioned that on the 1871 census he was a footman in St. Mary Magdelen. She did not mention that this was in Hastings, Sussex. He was at 35 Warrior Square - a large household with many servants. In the Sept qtr 1879 he married Elizabeth ASPINALL in the Kensington RD and by 1881 he is a butler at 19 Eccleston Sq, in ST George Hanover Sq. Westminster. By 1991 he is still a butler and at home with his family in 18 Howie St Battersea. In 1901 he is a butler at ?Ogsten Hall, Nr Chesterfield.
James ROFFE married Lydia BLYTHE in the Dec qtr 1876 in Kensington RD.
John ROFFE died 1875 in the Chelsea RD.
Edward ROFFE died in 1851 age 2
Details of Charles ROFFE and Ann ROFFE already posted
William Traies ROFFE married Ann HILLIER Sept qtr. 1888
All the best
Bernice
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Hi,
I've quickly looked at the TRAIES references. There are many that are of great interest but the one that one that hit my eye immediately is the TRAIES v WIVELL 1800 reference. Abraham WYVIL was an executor of the will of John TRAIES of Paddington 1787, the executors being his brother William and Daniel BASTON.
The name WIVELL is an unusual name and it seems unlikely that references to it are not linked in some way. The reason it is of such great interest is that first two TR**S that appear in Crediton are Richard and Samuel Tr**s who are both recorded in the Crediton marriage register about 1650. In 1646 Michael TREASE of North Petherwin who is on the TREASE family tree died (possibly around the time of the fall of Pendennis Castle - he was not buried where he lived) and in his will he refers to his sons Richard and Samuel who could be the same Richard and Samuel who appear a few years later in Crediton. On the 1642 assessment return for Michael Trease's farm the following entries appear which implies they were working the farm together:-
Degory Wivell 13s 0d
Michael Treis . .
If the Wivell family linked to the TRAIES family is the same Wivell family linked to the TREASE family then the nature of the link may help establish the ancestry of Richard and Samuel TRAIES. I'll research this but could take months - after getting details of Court Case, next step is possibly 1828 will of Abraham Wivell, gent of St Pancras, then maybe Degory Weevil's will of 1652 ... etc. etc. or I might find it is all irrelevant...
Re the John Traies will of 1810 - I can't find it - I can find wills of John Webb and William Savage under reference PROB 11/1512 - I have missed PCC wills before - maybe it is me but I find the wills retrieval software quirky - do you remember how you found it?
I'll work through the other references.
Next week I'll post up on website some details of the early TRAIES Crediton references including Richard and Samuel - I am awaiting further information before I post all of it and the extra information may affect/change what is already posted.
Really interesting information.
Bob
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Hi Bob
I remembered the WIVELL name myself and thought there could be a connection with the will you sent us showing him as an executor. As you say it seemed quite an unusual name and probably that it had stayed in my head.
Regarding the will of John TRAIES PROB 11/1512. If you go to the home page of the National Archives site, just type in John TRAIES and then press 'search'. It is the 7th item displayed on the page.
I've just checked this and it actually says John TRAIS. If you type in John TRAIS on the homepage instead of TRAIES, it is the first item that comes up.
Bye for now - Good luck with your TRAIES hunting. It's difficult to keep track of everyone, but if there is anyone/anything specific that you are looking for put out a message for your 'search party' to help.
Bernice
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Thanks, Bernice, the will reference appears on that list so I can follow it up. If you go into the specific search for PCC wills this will does not appear. I have suspected that there was something odd about the specific PCC wills search before but this confirms that it does not pick up some wills. I will redo all my searches using the wider search as I may have missed others.
Many thanks for your kind offer of help,
Regards,
Bob
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Thought the following may be of interest - not properly researched yet but another interesting character linked in some way to the TRAIES family.
I found the following obituary of an Abraham Wivell - yes yet another artist! Link here: -
http://www.wivell.info/images/Wivell_Art%20Journal%20Extract_Obituary.pdf
Interestingly he worked as child labour for a boot and shoe maker in Marylebone for a while. I think it probable he is linked to the Abraham Wivell who was an executor in the 1787 will of John Traies cordwainer. It is possible that Abraham Wivell the executor had taken over John Traies of Marylebone's boot and shoe making business and was the artist's uncle.
Could Abraham the artist have inherited the TRAIES artist gene somewhere in his ancestry?
Bob
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More interesting information Bob.
I have been following the last few messages with interest. He must fit in somewhere.
They do seem to be quite a creative lot!
Kerry
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Hi
You may remember that sometime ago we were wondering where the 10th hussars were stationed in the period between the Napoleonic Wars and the Victorian Wars. These were the years that James TRAIES (son of James) served with the regiment.
A few days ago, I received an e-mail from the archivist at The King's Royal Hussars Museum in Winchester giving me information about the movements of the regiment. I thought I'd share the information with you, although names of the individual soldiers were not given.
Jan 1836
Regiment divided equally between Glasgow and Hamilton
May 1836
Regiment moved to England. HQ and 3 Troops at York and 3 Troops at Newcastle.
May 1837
HQ moved to Nottingham with detachments at Sheffield and Derby
June 1838
Regiment moved to Hounslow. Duties of The Royal Escort. On duty at the coronation of HM Queen Victoria (lined streets from Waterloo Place through Pall Mall East and Charing Cross to Northumberland House).
Aug 1938
Detachments escorted her Majesty from London to Windsor.
Sept 1838
Review at Windsor
Nov 1838
Escorted Her Majesty from Windsor to Brighton.
April 1839
HQ moved from Hounslow to Dorchester with detachments to Exeter and Bradford.
Summer 1839
Troops sent in aid of civil power to Frome and Clifton.
Winter 1839
Fresh disturbances and other Troops sent to Chepstow, Newport and Cardiff.
May 1840
Moved to Birmingham for 3 weeks, then Coventry with detachments to Northampton and Weedon.
May 1841
Embarked for Ireland from Liverpool. Stationed at Portobello Barracks, Dublin, Several Troops dispersed in aid of civil power to Belfast, Dundalk and Newry. one squadron sent to Carlow when O'Connell was defeated in the election by Colonel O'Brien.
Aug 1842
Marched to the South of Ireland - Ballincollig with 2 Troops at Cork.
April 1843
Regiment moved to Cahir in Tipperary. Troops constantly moved in aid of civil power.
Sept 1844
HG at Newbridge.
May 1845
Moved to Ireland Bridge and Portobello Barracks, Dublin.
June 1845
Returned to England. HQ and 2 Troops to York, 1 Troop to Leeds and 1 Troop to Bradford.
March 1846
Regiment assembled in Canterbury. Raised from 6 Troops to 9 Troops (customary for regiments proceeding on service to India). Depot remained at Canterbury.
Bye for now
Bernice
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Hi Bernice
If I remember rightly and I working from memory here whilst doing 101 other things, we haven't managed to find James on the 1841 census? This might give us a clue to his whereabouts.
Kerry
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Hi Bob and Bernice
We haven't spoken for a month or so but I thought I would just update you with some news. Funnily enough I have had contact with two Traies contacts this week, the first jas Jane Traies in her tree who married William Roffe and I sent her links to this thread and Bob's website and hope to hear from her when she's caught up on the reading - ;D ;D ;D
The second is a Traies who I had contact with last year and excitingly she emailed me to let me know that she has been to the Hackney Archives and has seen the marriage record for James Traies and Ann Sutton 1818 and the record for James Traies and Martha Looker 1831 and the signatures are the same. So could our James have married Ann in 1818. Of course the way to solve this conundrum would be to find the baptisms for the younger children :-\ It would also help if we could find a death or burial for a Hannah before 1818. If James was born 1816 in Stratford Le Bow could she have died there?
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
That is really an unexpected twist. Agatha Christie couldn't do better. The good news is that in July I finally will get the time to go to LMA , Exeter Records Office etc., and do the research that might help solve this conundrum. The bad news is I can't do anything before then, even accessing the Internet may be problematical.
Keep up the good work,
Regards,
Bob
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she has been to the Hackney Archives and has seen the marriage record for James Traies and Ann Sutton 1818 and the record for James Traies and Martha Looker 1831 and the signatures are the same. So could our James have married Ann in 1818.
Hi Kerry and Bob
I am a bit puzzled by your recent message, Kerry. I thought the original parish registers for Hackney would have been in the Metropolitan Archives (the original Greater London Record Office GLRO). Where are the Hackney Archives? I just wanted to confirm she did see the original registers and not just Pallots Index at the Library in Hackney. As you probably know, Pallots index are a collection of cards each containing a single marriage, hand written, with the name of the church where the event took place just put on with a rubber stamp.
As the same person probably wrote all the cards in the index they would have been in the same hand. I just wanted to make sure your contact had seen the original parish register entries and there was a signature for James TRAIES and it was not just these hand written cards.
If you wish I could send you copies of the two cards in Pallots Index showing the marriages of James TRAIES to Ann SUTTON and James TRAIES to Martha LOOKER and you will see that all four names appear to have been written by the same person.
I did mention in an earlier post (on page 7 of original thread) that there is a 'b' written after Jas. (James) TRAIES marriage to Ann SUTTON, meaning he was a bachelor. The 's' after Ann SUTTON means spinster. That is why I do NOT think that 'our' James could have married Ann SUTTON. As 'our' James had been previously married to Hannah it would have a 'w' after his name meaning widower.
At the marriage to Martha LOOKER, he is described as a widower and there is a 'w' after his name.
I have not seen the original records for either marriage, but if transcribed correctly our James did NOT marry Ann SUTTON. The marriage to Martha LOOKER, COULD be that of 'our' James OR of course it could be the James who married Ann SUTTON, we haven't really proved which one it was - we just know that the husband of Martha was already a widower, at the time of the marriage.
If your contact did see the original records and it did actually say 'w' for widower at the time that the marriage to Ann SUTTON took place, and not 'b' for bachelor, then the transrciber got it wrong and there probably was just one James marrying all these people and not two as I suggest.
Hope you can understand what I am trying to say, and don't mind me being a bit unconvinced at present!!
Best wishes
Bernice
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Hi Bernice
I don't mind you be unconvinced at all, I read through again the email I received from my contact last night, and noted that it does say bachelor and he should be a widower.
I think I have heard of the Hackney archives before and think they are separate from the LMA.
I still think the clincher will be (apart from a marriage for James and Hannah) the baptism records of James, Henry, Jane, Emma and Hannah. :-\
However we need to bear in mind that none of is have found trace of another James Traies in London at the time. :-\
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
Glad you don't mind me expressing my doubts concerning the marriage of James TRAIES and Ann SUTTON. If it is our James he certainly was not a bachelor at the time. I agree with you that no other James has been discovered apart from 'ours'. As you say it would be so good to find some of the missing baptisms wouldn't it!!
Regarding the Hackney Archives, I've just checked and they are part of the Rose Lipman Library situated in De Beauvoir Road, Hackney - nowhere near the LMA. I visited the LMA on many occasions when we lived near Bedford and was an hours train journey away. I also used to go to the Guildhall Library as I had ancestors who lived near St. Paul's Cathedral. Some members of this line lived near Bishopsgate, so I used the Bishopsgate Institute a lot too - no computers to help us in those days! I knew of the Rose Lipman Library in Hackney but Hackney was just a bit further out than the region where my ancestors lived and I had no occasion to visit it.
Best wishes
Bernice
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Hi guys
Nothing to add ...and will read your posts ...
I have not been receiving thread emails...so thought I would just say hi , so that maybe i will get some . :)
deb
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There's not been much going on the Traies at the moment Deb, too busy with the Faulkners ;D ;)
Kerry
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errr would that be HANNAH Faulkner ? ;D ;D ;D
what's with your missing Hannahs ...rather bizarre , don't you think 8) ::)
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I'm beginning to think I'm being persecuted by a crowd of Hannah's ::) ::) ::)
Kerry
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just noticed something ...Hannah is one of those words that can be spelled left to right or vice versa .... ;D hope this helps you on your Hannah quest ... LMHO ;D ;D
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Deb - if I could I'd throw something at you for comments like that ::) ;D ;)
Just to let everyone know I have now added a page about James Traies to my website http://www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk/html/james_traies.html in the hope that the more places we have the name mentioned the more likelihood of someone else finding it who might, just might have a bit of missing information for us.
Well I can live in hope ;D
Kerry
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Hi Bernice
Just found this thread on roots http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,315201.0/topicseen.html and the only family I could think to search for who came from Tunbridge Wells were Jane Traies who married William Roffe. Found her and William's death register copies and some of the children.
It is free at the moment to use the site but not sure how long for.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
I've just had a look at the Hackney marriage register entries of 1818 and 1831 and although not a handwriting expert, my humble opinion is that the James Traies signatures were done by the same person - they both have an unusual distinctive downward stroke on the final s, they both have a similar upward slope of the surname - the capital T has an extra flourish ...
What do you think?
The 1818 register entry -
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txb/txb19j_as_mcert.jpg
The 1831 register entry -
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txb/txb19j_ml_mcert.jpg
If the consensus is that they are the same person, here are four possibilities:-
1. The 1818 bachelor status is a mistake - but both James and wife Ann could write their signatures and probably could read as well so they would surely have spotted it.
2. The bachelor status is true. He and Hannah never married so he was technically a bachelor and would not become a widower if she died.
3. The bachelor status is a deliberate falsehood.
4. James, husband of Hannah Traies is a different person.
Do you have the 1842 and 1857 marriage certificates to hand - could you check whether they bear the same signature?
I wonder if the answer to this will also explain why we can't find the baptisms?
Bob
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Hi bob
They certainly do look similar. Hmm, I wonder whether Ann was Hannah and they didn't marry till 1818. What a mystery
I hope its not the wrong one, otherwise we are back to the beginning ::)
kerry
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Hi Bob
Now I'm home ( I was at work this morning) I have printed out the two marriage certs and I have to agree there are simillarities in the T and the S and the J is quite flourished as well!
Of course the one piece of evidence or 5 pieces of evidence that will help us in this is to find the baptism records of James 1816, Henry 1819, Jane 1823, Hannah 1826 and Emma 1827.
You are right with your surmise of possible scenarios plus the one I suggested that Hannah and Ann are the same person but for some reason they didn't marry until 1818.
Another piece of evidence that would help is to find a death for Hannah and/or Ann presumably before 1831.
I'll scan the two marriage certs 1842 and 1857 and add them
Kerry
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Hmm now I've looked at the 1842 and 1857 scans I'm not sure they are the same James.
What do you think? They look different to me
Kerry
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Hi Kerry and Bob
I tend to agree with you , Kerry.... the signatures do look very different. The downward stroke of the "S" of Traies on Bob's certs are totally different to your certs. To me it looks like signatures of an older man vs that of a younger man.
will relook
deb :)
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Hi Deb
So it could be the same person then, just later on in life, ie 1842 our James was 57 and 1857 he was 72 years old whereas in 1818 he was only 33.
Kerry
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I think it's the other way around.....the signatures of 1842 and 1857 look to be a younger man ,,,, if he was 72 in 1857 I would have thought the handwriting would have gone downhill ..
1842 and 1857 look like a confident, non-shaky signature ..."modern' cursive writing
1818 and 1831 looks like 'old fashioned' cursive
deb
added ... 1842 and 1857 ...the "a' going into the 'm' of James ...look the same
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Trouble with that is we know what age he was in 1842 and 1857, so maybe its just down to the fact that he's been writing for a long time and just confident signing his name whereas when he was younger he wasn' t that used to writing. ???
Kerry
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Hi everyone
I've been away for a few days and am just catching up with messages.
Firstly, Kerry - thanks for the message about the site for burials in Tonbridge Wells. As you say it could be useful as it expands and covers other areas. I found the ones for Jane ROFFE (nee TRAIES) and family quite quickly.
Secondly, Bob - I'm glad you managed to look at the Hackney marriages. As you may remember, I was a bit unconvinced when Kerry told us her contact had said that the signatures of James Traies on both Hackney marriages seemed to have been written in the same hand. I wasn't sure if the contact had seen the original entries of just Pallotts Indexes.
What you have sent us are obviously taken from the originals. Yes, I agree and feel convinced that the two signatures for James TRAIES on the Hackney registers are made by the same person. My thoughts in the past have always been that although 'our' James sees to have married a Hannah (and had children by her), and had definately later married Jane BERRY and Mary JONES, the suggested marriages to Ann SUTTON and Martha LOOKER always seemed a bit dubious to me. The one to Ann, because we know he would not have been a bachelor at that time, (although as Kerry said there was no proof of a 2nd James TRAIES in London at that time). However, if it had been a different James who married Ann SUTTON, it would mean that either of the two James, could have been the widower marrying Martha LOOKER in 1831. After looking at the entries you sent, it certainly looks as if whoever, married Ann in Hackney was the same person who married Martha in Hackney in 1831.
I've got two things I'd like to ask Kerry:-
Soon after we got in touch, You kindly sent me a copy of the marriage of James TRAIES and Jane BERRY and in return I sent you a copy of the marriage certificate I had of James TRAIES and Mary JONES. This means we now both have copies of these two marriages. You posted the signatures on the certificates on this site in response to Bob's request but not the certificates. Have another look at the actual two certificates (Jane BERRY and Mary JONES). I think that in fact whoever filled in all the details on the marriage certificates also filled in the names of the bride and groom and the witnesses. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this and perhaps you could post the entire certificate on the site so that Bob and Debbie could give their views.
If it is as I think and the curate did all of the writing on the certificates including the signatures, obviously the signature of James TRAIES in the later certificates will look different to that in the earlier marriages in Hackney, even if in fact it turns out that it was the same person.
Best wishes to all
Bernice
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Well funny you should say that Bernice
This has been on mind since yesterday because the more I look at those two certficates the more I see there is no difference between the signatures and the rest of the certificate writing. Although the mary Jones one has her mark, I am not sure how these things worked. Were these certificate copied out by someone so if Mary had left her mark that was physically shown by putting X her mark??
Anyway here is the first one - James and Jane
Kerry
Moderator Comment: Image removed - only a small portion of an image may be displayed for identification purposes
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And the second one being the marriage of James and Mary Jones
Kerry
Moderator Comment: Image removed - only a small portion of an image may be displayed for identification purposes
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Hello Kerry
It's Bernice again. I've just had another look at your TRAIES page on your website.
It suggests you have a death certificate for Martha TRAIES (nee LOOKER) and that she died in Greyhound Row. If she did die in Greyhound Row, it looks as if she must have been married to 'our' James. I don't think there is any doubt that our James lived in Greyhound Row.
If Martha died at Greyhound Row, she must have been married to our James. Therefore, if we all agree that the signatures on the Hackney marriages are the same, then it must also have been he who married Ann SUTTON, even though it says bachelor!!
What does everyone think? Miss Marple has nothing on us!!
I'd appreciate a copy of the death certificate at some time, Kerry.
Best wishes once more
Bernice
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You beat me to it again Bernice I have just opened up the death certificate to check that in answer to your query about Martha. I will scan and send to you.
But yes it says wife of James Traies, Tin Plate Worker and is at Greyhound Row.
Kerry
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Hi
thanks for posting the marriage certs , Kerry
I do think that the certs were filled in or copied by someone. I tend to think they were copied from the original and that the X, mark of Mary, shows that she could not write whereas James could , therefore no X next to his name.
deb
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The more I look at them the more I agree with you Deb.
Its those baptisms we need to find :-\
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
Thanks for the copy of Martha TRAIES death cerrtificate which you sent to me, also for posting the two marriage certificates on the board.
I couldn't get back to you last night, but soon after sending you my last message, I remembered why the two signatures of the Hackney marriages were never going to be the same as the writing on the Jane BERRY and Mary JONES marriage certificates.
The Hackney marriages took place before civil registration in 1837. and were seen and copied by Bob, exactly how they would have appeared in the registers.
The later marriages took place after civil registration began in 1837. Marriage Certificates are civil documents not church documents and not written in the original hand.
At the bottom of the certificate it says CERTIFIED TO BE A TRUE COPY OF AN ENTRY IN THE CERTIFIED COPY OF A REGISTER OF MARRIAGES IN THE REGISTRATION DISTRICT OF KENSINGTON.
This is what I think this wording means and what actual took place :
The marriage register was signed by the couple (if they could sign or they just put an X if they could not). This register remained in the church. The Vicar or curate of the church where the marriage took place then had to copy every detail of the marriage entry in his register onto two forms and send these to the Local Registrar. He could not copy signatures of course so all of the writing on the forms, including the signatures would be that of the curate or Vicar of the church.
Local Registry Offices run by Registrars were set up at the time that Civil Registration began (1837). Each parish belonged to a certain Registration District. (RD). When the Local Registrar received the forms from the church about a marriage having taken place in his district he would keep one copy and enter it in his registers. His registers would show the entries for all of the various parishes in his Registration District. At the end of every three months (March, June, Sept and Dec) the other copy would be sent to the main GRO, along with copies of all the other marriages that had taken place in the district during that period.
This is why if you order a certificate from the local Record Office where the event took place it will say at he bottom of the certificate CERTIFIED TO BE A TRUE COPY OF AN ENTRY IN A REGISTER IN MY CUSTODY, (the details of which were supplied by the Vicar). This certificate does not have the GRO stamp on the bottom right hand corner and is usually hand written by the Superintendant Registrar or his deputy, the details have been copied from their registers.
As already stated, the wording on the bottom of a certificate ordered from the GRO gives the wording TRUE COPY OF A CERTIFIED COPY. This means send you a photocopy of the certified copy supplied to them by the Local Registrar.
I hope you have managed to follow all this - it is a bit complicated! The point I'm trying to make is you will not find an original signature on a certificate supplied by either a Local Registrar or the GRO. To see an original signature you would have to look at the Parish Registers of the church. Once these registers are full they are now usually transferred to the Local Record Office and filmed. The Record Office deals with Church Records and the Registry Office with Civil Records.
Hope that helps
Bernice
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Thanks for confirming that Bernice.
I now understand why all the GRO certificates I have all have one handwriting on them.
So that doesn't rule out the James on all 4 marriages being the same man then.
Kerry
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I want to get to grips with these baptism records we are missing for James children.
Am I right in thinking we have tried St Pancras records and Marylebone?
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
We checked Marylebone, but only found those included on the IGI and already known to us.
Bernice
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Hi Bernice
I'm just wondering if it might be worth checking the Hackney area if James was there, if it is the same James of course?
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
I definately think we should try to look at Hackney and I think that should be our next step. James jnr born 1816 gave Mile End as his place of birth on his soldier records and I believe on the census. Mile End is so very close to Hackney.
This is just guesswork, but I think James junior could well be the last child of James and Hannah. Hannah may have died soon after the birth of James took place in Mile End and then James Snr could have married Ann SUTTON in 1818.
I can't explain why he said he was a bachelor though!
The other children could well turn out to be those of Ann. The Hackney registers may supply the burial record of Hannah TRAIES in the years 1816 - 1818 and also the burial of wife, Ann sometime between the birth of Emma in 1827 and 1830 when he married Martha. He didn't waste much time before getting a new wife each time!
This explanation makes sense to me, but obviously no proof!
Until Bob posted those signatures on the Hackney marriage registers, as you know I was very dubious about him marrying Ann SUTTON and Martha LOOKER. However, after seeing the signatures from Bob and the death certificate you sent me of Martha TRAIES who died in Greyhound Row, I'm now convinced in my own mind that there was indeed just one James TRAIES marrying all these wives and all the dates seem to fit so well.
Personally, I think that looking at Hackney should be the next step - but I could be proved wrong!!
Bye for now
Bernice
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Hi Bernice
Working from memory now but somewhere along the line James jnr had put Stratford le bow as birth place. Might have been on the service records. Is that near Hackney? I seem to think it might be.
I like your guessed explanation, it could have some truth in it and I agree Hackney records should be searched.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
Yes, Stratford Le Bow was about two miles to the East of London on the Essex Road. It shares a boundary with Hackney to the North. (Bethnal Green is to the West).
Off to bed now, goodnight
Bernice
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Brilliant, maybe hopefully Hackney might hold some answers then. ;)
I really must go to bed too. ;D
Kerry
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Hello folks,
The man of mystery, James (1785) is my 4th great grandfather (according to my PAF relationship calculator). That is, if he's who we suspect he is.
I actually live in Hackney and should be able to get to the archives centre in the next few weeks, unless someone has already made the trip. I have plenty of free time, but have a lovely 1 year old daughter, who makes these record hunting expeditions tricky.
The Mile End/Stratford le Bow records all seem to be at the LMA and Public Records Office. These would definitely be worth checking too.
I'll let you know if I find anything.
Cheers
Sam Traies
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Hi Sam
Welcome to Rootschat and welcome to our little Trease/Traies group. :)
I was just about to answer your email. You mentioned the death of Martha and that can be confirmed as I have the death certificate.
It would be great if you could check the baptisms at Hackney. I guess you have the details for them? I really want to crack this one because I think I am becoming a little obsessed with James LOL ;D he is becoming a fascinating man. ::)
Kerry
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Hi Sam and welcome to Rootschat.
It would be great if you could check some of the registers in the LMA for the elusive baptisms for the younger children of James TRAIES. I presume you know we are also looking for the marriage to his first wife, Hannah and her burial record.
I used to do family history research in London quite frequently when we lived in Bedfordshire, but have not been to London at all since we moved to South Wales nearly four years ago. It is only over about the last two years that we have become aware of the TRAIES family who are part of my husband's side of the family.
Good Luck
Best wishes
Bernice
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Hi Bernice
Can I just add to that the death of Ann also who must have died, presumably, just before 1831 when James married Martha Looker. Presumably also in the Hackney area.
Kerry
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Thanks very much for the warm welcome!
I will try to get to either the London Metropolitan Archives (for the Stratford-le-Bow records) or the Hackney Archives this week. I can't promise too much since I haven't tried such a trip with only my daughter and myself, usually my partner Steve comes along too (and one of us watches her and the other looks at records). But if it's not sucessful, my partner should be able to make a trip soon after.
My understanding of what I am looking for is:
baptism records from 1816-1827 (James to Emma)
death records from 1816-1818 (Hannah) and from 1827-1831 (Ann)
For Hackney records, St John at Hackney, seems to be the most likely, since most other churches weren't around for the earlier children (of Ann)
And for Bow (Stratford-le-Bow), St Mary, Stratford Bow, seems like the best candidate.
Mile End gets a bit more difficult, since there seem to be an abundance of old churches in the Tower Hamlets area.
Cheers
Sam
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Hi Sam
You've got it covered. The only other date we have not been able to find is the possible marriage between James and Hannah around 1809. If there was indeed such a marriage. The first child was baptised at St Pancras but it might be worth a quick look just in case.
Good luck and just think when your daughter is older she could help :D
Kerry
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Hi
I have just returned from the Hackney Archives Centre. I only got a chance to check baptisms today, and didn't find anything.
I guess, I didn't really expect to. I definitely feel more optimistic about St Mary Stratford Bow. But I will try and get back to check for the burials and marriages soon.
Did I mention that I looked at Kensington records at St Mary Abbotts? I only found the burial extracts (is that what they are called? they were handwritten copies of church records, quite brief) for Martha Traies (nee Looker) and Harriet Sarah Traies and Arthur Ovens Traies, and the baptism for Frederick Henry Traies. We were'nt really expecting to find those missing baptisms there, but it was worth a try.
There was one other entry which I found very interesting in the St Mary Abbotts records - of course it's way too early to be our James, but interesting anyway. I couldn't read it very well, but this is how I read it:
Traise, My An D of Jm and Han Jun 12 1774, Carpenter, Gravel Pits [which is where Greyhound Row was]
Cheers
Sam
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Hi Sam
That's interesting, I wonder if this was one of the London traies that Bob has information on. They may be distant relatives of our James and possibly the reason he left Devon for London
Kerry
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Hi Sam
Thanks so much for looking for some of the elusive TRAIES entries in the Hackney Archives, especially trying to search with a baby in tow! Can't be easy! You've done very well.
Which member of the TRAIES family are you descended from?My husband is descended from Ann TRAIES, daughter of James TRAIES. Both Ann and her brother Samuel (Kerry's ancestor) were baptised in Marylebone in 1813. They were baptised on the same day, although the register says that Samuel was three years old at the time.
I was able to order a film of the Marylebone baptisms and look at them at our local LDS Family History Library. I could find no further baptisms for TRAIES children after the 1813 entries already seen on the IGI.
The Census return for James TRAIES junior gives Mile End for his place of birth. His documents from when he was a soldier says he was born in Stratford le Bow. (both places very, very close). The census returns for the remainder of the children all give Marylebone as their place of birth, although as I've just said I found no baptisms for them in the registers. It is obvious that by the 1830's, James TRAIES was living in Greyhound Row, Kensington. It is trying to fit in his movements between 1813 and 1830 is the problem!
It was very interesting to see a further reference to Greyhound Row, in the entry you sent. It looks to me as if the full entry should read:
TRAISE Mary Ann, 12 June 1774, daughter of James and Hannah, Carpenter, Gravel Pits (If there was any chance of the Jm being Wm it would be William of course and not James)
We have certainly found that TRAIES is spelt in a variety of ways. I'm hoping your find helps Bob to find a 'link'. It certainly looks as if 'our' James was not the first family member to live in Greyhound Row.
Thanks again
Bernice
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I'm a descendent of Henry Traies (who is possibly Ann Sutton's first child). Frederick Henry Traies is my great, great grandfather, and Henry John Traies, the piano tuner and teacher is my great grandfather.
I'd definitely like to get back to Hackney Archives. I noticed that they have some records for the Shoreditch Workhouse, has anyone checked those for details on Samuel Traies? It's where he died isn't it? Does this mean that he came upon difficult times? Also, interestingly, they have census records for the Parish from 1831 and 1821, although apparently these don't have a lot of information on them. A staff member at Hackney Archives told me that most other boroughs or Parishes threw their records away, Hackney was too slack (this is what she told me anyway). Good old Hackney!
I think Tower Hamlets has a local history centre too. That might make it easier for me to get to those Bow and Mile End records.
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Hi Sam
Samuel born 1810 died 20 January 1890 aged 79 years from gout and bronchitis at the Shoreditch Workhouse. He was formerly a Gas meter worker. He was my 4 x great grandfather. I have a copy of his death certificate.
I did sometime ago ask for a 1831 Hackney census check on Traies and nothing came up but I would like to check again and look at 1821 if at all possible. One day I might even get to visit Hackney! ;D
Kerry
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Hi all and a special hi to Sam
I am not a Traies/Trease family member .... but I feel like I am an adoptive member of the family ;D How great that you have hooked up with this thread.
James f/o mary Ann b c 1774 , was a carpenter ..... Kerry's James was a tin plate worker .... were these trades/occupations interchangeable or totally different?
If James f/o MA b 1774 is related , then the family may have left Devon sooner than we think.
deb :)
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Hi Deb
I'm struggling with my memory here but I think there were Traies in London earlier anyway, Bob has a will I think for a John who might be an Uncle or cousin or something?
I must look at his site as I am sure it will be on there.
Kerry
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Hi all,
The 1831 Hackney census was mentioned in a recent message. I discovered someone offering free look-ups on this census earlier today and contacted her.
She replied to my request within about an hour, but said there was no TRAIES (or anything similar) listed. Only the name of head of household is given. There was no head of house called LOOKER either. There was a Charles Thomas SUTTON listed at Ebenezer Place, Shacklewell. He may have been connected to Ann SUTTON.
I didn't know that Samuel TRAIES, son of James TRAIES and Hannah, died in Shoreditch Workhouse. I've had a look at www.workhouse.org.uk and searched for Shoreditch - it must have been a most dismal place even in the late 1800's, although some improvements would have been made by then.
Bye for now
Bernice
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Hi
If anyone wants a copy of Samuel's death certificate let me know and I will email a copy to you.
I have his wife Ann's death certificate also.
Kerry
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I had a quick look at the Tower Hamlets local history library and checked out the St Mary Stratford Bow baptisms, and didn't find anything. However, there were missing records, and I suspect they were more imcomplete than indicated. So, it's definitely worth trying them again at the LMA. What was useful though, is they suggested the best place (or perhaps only place) for Mile End records in that period is the Parish of St Dunstan, Stepney. I did try to look at those in the Tower Hamlets library, but they were just too hard to read.
It's funny that if you type "Hannah Sutton" into FamilySearch, it gives you Ann Sutton records. There was one Christened in Shoreditch, but of course, there would be no way of knowing if it's her. :-\
Kerry, I would like to have a copy of Samuel and Anne's death certificates, if you don't mind. Thanks
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I will scan and email to you tomorrow morning Sam.. Would do tonight, but this humid weather has made feel extremely weary and lethargic. Oh for a cooling breeze :-\
Kerry
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By the way the heat's going to my head now. Samuel, son of James's wife was Elizabeth not Ann. Ann was his sister ::) ::)
Kerry
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So do we think that Hannah and Ann Sutton were one and the same person and they didn't marry till 1818 after their first 4 children were born?
Incidentally we have never managed yet to find a death for Jane Traies born 1809 who presumably died before 1823 when the second Jane Traies was born.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
Yes please, I would like a copy of the death certificate of Samuel TRAIES.
I've no idea if Hannah and Ann SUTTON were the same person. For some unknown reason, I tend to think not, but it is certainly possible and often people dropped the 'H' when they spoke, Hannah could easily sound like Anna . It would certainly explain why James wrote bachelor on his marriage to Ann HUTTON.
This sort of thing did happen, as Geoff and I have discovered on another of Geoff's lines. The following tale is nothing to do with TRAIES but you may find it of interest and shows that you cannot believe everything you see!
Geoff's great grandfather was born in East Grinstead in 1853. The birth certificate gave Michael and Ann MAYNARD (formerly PETERS) as the parents. We found the family on the 1861 census for East Grinstead and then looked at the 1851 to find the father, Michael MAYNARD. We found Michael MAYNARD, unmarried, at nearby West Hoathly in the home of his brother and family. Also visiting that house on census night were Ann PETERS, unmarried, and her one year old daughter Eliza PETERS. We thought that Michael MAYNARD had married this Ann PETERS, sometime between the census of 1851 and the birth of Geoff's great grandfather in 1853, but we could find no trace of the marriage.
The 1861 and 1871 census found the family increasing in size. Michael and Ann MAYNARD were said to be husband and wife and all the children including the eldest girl, (down as Eliza PETERS in 1851) was down as Eliza MAYNARD in 1861. Eliza was married in 1868 as Eliza Peters MAYNARD with Michael MAYNARD as father.
We finally found the marriage of Michael MAYNARD and Ann PETERS. They had married in 1872 in Brighton after living in East Grinstead and pretending to be married for 20 years!
We thought that probably one of them was already married and they couldn't marry until their previous partner had died. However, when the certificate came back it clearly said 'bachelor' and 'spinster'. Witnesses at the marriage were Eliza and her husband.
Why Michael and Ann waited so long before tying the knot is anyones guess!!
Bernice
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No problem Bernice will send them to you.
It would be a neat little theory that Hannah and Ann were the same woman tying up the fact we can't find a marriage for James and Hannah and can't find her death. Again the baptism of the other children might throw light on it.
this really is a pesky one and I have stories just like that one Bernice. They only did it to test us or thats what I reckon anyway.
Kerry
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I'd like to give my welcome to Samantha and congratulate her on her interesting findings. I've been trying to work out how I can best help out - I can reach LMA, Westminster and PRO easily - Hackney less so.
In his enlistment papers James Traies states he was born in Stratford Le Bow in October 1816. This is very specific and is probably reliable. In the 1851 census, he gives Mile End as his place of birth. The next son Henry who seems to have been born around 1820 variously gives Marylebone, Kensington and Mile End as his place of birth. The daughters Jane 1823?, Hannah 1825?, and Emma 1826? give Marylebone as their place of birth in the census returns. After 1816 the next reliable information we have on James's residence is an 1833 trade directory that gives Queens Road, Bryanston Square as his address.
My web surfing indicates that Bow (Stratford le Bow) is about 1-2 miles to the East of Mile End New Town. St Johns Hackney is on Lower Clapton Rd about 1-2 miles north of Mile End New Town. Mile End New Town was an artisan area that grew very quickly beginning of 19th century and a likely place for James to work. It formed part of the parish of St Dunstans Stepney until 1841. St Dunstans' baptisms may be on IGI batch C055672 but show no appropriate baptisms. Coverly Fields Chapel and Sion Church also appear to be in Mile End area - can't locate records for period on IGI but may be at PRO.
If James returned to West London early, the number of church registers to examine is large. I suppose St Marys, Bryanston Square where baptism records are held from 1825 is a possible start - can't see it on IGI. The St Mary Abbots, Kensington records that Sam has uncovered look very interesting - may be there is more there to find.
I could do a visit to LMA or Westminster City Archives or PRO. May be I could share some research with Samantha. Any suggestions welcome.
I am planning to visit PRO next week anyway and will see what I can find there for a start.
Regards,
Bob
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Thanks Bob
It would be great to get some answers to these intriguing questions.
Also thanks for the lesson on London geography, it totally stumps me, I only live 50 odd miles from London but have not a single clue about any of it!
The search goes on ;D
Kerry
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A warm hello to everyone!
There is a record of James living in 37 Queen Street, Bryanstone Square in 1828 (Pigot and Co's Metropolitan Directory, 1828). I think this is Marylebone. It's all rather puzzling. So he was married in Hackney in 1818 and in Marylebone by 1828, married in Hackney again in 1831, but in Bryanstone Sq by 1833.
A rootschat member (not sure who it was now) has already checked parish records for Marylebone, and we had also looked at St Marylebone Church and St Mary Bryanstone Sq.
I was aiming to check St Dunstan, Stepney and St Mary Stratford Bow next. I did attempt this at Tower Hamlets local history library but one set was almost illegible and the other seemed to have too many missing records, but they are certainly at the LMA.
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Actually , my partner steve works near the Guildhall Library in the city and they have a rich set of early London trade directories including Pigot's. He's going to check to see whether James is listed in any earlier ones on Monday. His listing in 1828 (Queen St. bryanstone square) is now Harrowby St , westminster (W1H) off edgeware road. Type Harrowby street into google maps and compare it to the Queen street listed in this 1824 map of London ..
http://www.oldlondonmaps.com/greenwoodpages/greenwoodnorth18b.html
I did take a look at Harrowby street ... nothing that seems to have survived from 1828.
cheers
sam
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Hi Sam
That's one the same isn't it?
So that places him in Marylebone for 1828 which would fit with the later children so where were they baptised? Hmm
Kerry
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Hi Sam
That's one the same isn't it?
So that places him in Marylebone for 1828 which would fit with the later children so where were they baptised?
Kerry
Hmm, is there more than one church in that area?
Bother I meant to modify not quote ::) ::)
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Hi all
I've just had a look at the 1824 London map as suggested by Sam.
I saw Queen Street off Edgeware Road in Marylebone, but almost opposite Queen Street off the other side of Edgeware Road, I noticed Star Street. 16 Star Street Paddington is where James TRAIES was living in 1842 when he married Jane BERRY. This marriage took place in St John's Paddington.
The problem with trying to find London and Middlesex Churches is that there are so many of them and new parishes were created from bits of several of the old parishes. St. John's Paddington was not created until the early 1830's. Also of course so many streets have changed their names. When St. John's, Paddington was built it was in Southwick Cresent. This is now known as Hyde Park Cresent.
Some people lived in one address, but trade directories may give a different address!
Genuki pages are good for finding out about when and how, various parishes were created, but it is still quite complicating to understand (I think so anyway).
Bernice
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Hi Bernice
I thought I recognised Star Street! So a picture of him in the same area is beginning to been drawn up.
Kerry
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Hi folks
Steve managed to get to Guildhall today and check some of James Traies entries in commercial directories.
Between 1810-1821, there were no entries for "traies" in Robson's; Kent's or Holden's Directories.
The first directory James appears in is 1822, as Traise:
1822, Traise, Jas, Tin Plate Worker and Brazier, 37 Queen St, Bryanstone Square (Robson's New Directory for London: Commercial Directory, Street Guide and Carriers List. 4th Edition).
From here, he appears consistently in the Robson's, Pigot's and Kent's directories as either Jas, James or J. Traies and always at 37 Queen St. Bryanstone Square, up to 1833.
Steve is going to check 1833 to 1850 tomorrow.
Also, just one thought about Hannah and Ann Sutton... If they were 2 different people, wouldn't it have been unlikely for the second wife to have her child named after the first wife (ie Hannah 1825/1826)? Or perhaps this wasn't unusual..?
Cheers,
Sam
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Hi Sam
Great news, at least we know where James was for those years. ;D
This thought about the name Hannah has crossed my mind, but if it is a family name then it might have been used anyway. :-\
Kerry
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The Trade Directory information seems to indicate following research:-
Baptisms of James and possibly Henry in Stratford and Mile End area 1816 - 1822
Baptisms of Jane, Hannah, Emma and possibly Henry in Marylebone area from 1819
Funeral of Hannah after 1825 in Marylebone area
I'll visit LMA and examine :-
St Dunstans and St Mary le Bow registers for James and Henry baptisms.
Marylebone area churches for other baptisms and funeral of Ann nee Sutton. Although possibly done already - no harm in revisiting.
Son Samuel was presumably working with James when he married in Christchurch, St Marylebone. By 1841 he was working in Shoreditch (Hackney) - may be there is some connection with his father's marriage there in 1831.
Bob
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Bob
That might explain why Samuel moved to the Shoreditch area and remained there if there was a family link somewhere.
Kerry
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By the way I keep meaning to ask have any of you done any research into tin plate workers?
I contacted the guild but beyond the job itself they weren't able to give me any specific details. Does anyone know of any good books, a google search brought up zilch and I was wondering would James and Samuel have worked in a factory or a small workshop or did they work from home - workshop in the garden sort of arrangement?
Kerry
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Bob and Sam
Good luck with your searching. I looked at the St. Mary. Marylebone baptisms some months ago (filmed by the Latter Day Saints) but only found those already known to us on the IGI. I did not find a burial record.
Always worth another check though if time permits.
By the way Kerry, I forgot to say thanks for the certificate for the burial of Samuel TRAIES and wife.
Regards
Bernice
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Hello
We have just a few more details to add about James, and one correction.
Firstly the correction: his address was Bryanston Square, not Bryanstone Square (without the "e").
A quick note about the organisation of these trade directories in the 1830s. There is a name index that lists trades people in alphabetical order; a street index that lists all the trades people for a particular street (eg. all the business owners in Queen St.); and some also have a trade index that orders people by profession (eg all the Tin Plate Workers)
In 1834, James appears again at 37 Queen Street, Bryanston Square (in Robsons Directory). Unlike Harrowby Street today, Queen Street in those days seems to be a shopping strip: The street index lists a baker at no 1 , a builder at 2 , a shoemaker at no 24 , a coal merchant at 39 , a pub, "The Duke of York" at number 45 etc.
In 1835 and 1836, James is still listed in the name index of Robson's, but another business is listed in the street index at 37 Queen Street. I suspect James actually moved out of Queen St. in 1835 but the name index wasn't corrected.
There are no entries for James in any of the directories in 1837 and 1838. In 1839 and 1840 James appears at "Kensington Gravel Pits", but is listed as "Trale, James". He doesn't appear in the name index, but is listed in the trade index under "Tin Plate Workers" (Pigots and Co, National Commercial Street Directory of London) and in the street index under "Kensington Gravel Pits"
1839 appears to be the first time that Kensington Gravel Pits appears in the Pigots Directory. So it's possible that James moved as early as 1835, but perhaps Kensington wasn't developed enough to be included in a London directory.
Cheers
Sam
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My visit to LMA yielded nothing on the missing baptisms but will revisit.
I now begin to understand Bernice's comments on the difficulty of searching London registers. I thought I had done sufficient prep work but before next visit will inspect the LMA collections info on the National Archives Database. Parishes merge, split, church and district names change etc. I had difficulty identifying some churches.
If Stratford Le Bow registers are the same as St Mary Bromley and St Leonard Bromley High St, they are indexed at LMA - the index yields nothing. The registers appear not to be on IGI - the Mary Le Bow church on IGI is I think in the City.
The St Dunstans Stepney registers are at LMA but are large and have no index. They are also on IGI but a search of IGI yields nothing.
I started searching the St Marylebone burial records - 1825, 1826, and part 1827 but takes about 30 mins per year and although clear the spidery handwriting makes even Jones look like Traies at a glance. Also searched records for several smaller churches in area.
I inspected Samuel's and Susan Traies marriage register entries to get the witness names. Susan, sister of the artist, married at Shoreditch and from Internet searches her husband's family appear to number several artists such as Breton Riviere. I also inspected the baptism register entries we do have for James children but that gives us no more information.
I have updated the website with research done and further information from Sam on Frederick Traies's family.
Bob
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Great effort Bob! I wonder whether we'll ever find those elusive baptisms. :-\ I noticed that you had also considered Paddington. St Mary, Paddington Green also seems like a good contender, from my (poor) map reading skills, I think its quite close to Bryanston Sqauare.
Re: the St Mary Abbotts indexes, do you think they relate to funerals? They were listed as burial registers. I wondered if that meant the church had responsibilty for their burial. I have had contact with the archivist there, it might be time for another email to her.
The details for those (which were just handwritten records copied from the church records) are:
Martha Traies, 11th September 1842, age 48, Gravel Pits.
Art. Evans Traies, 22nd March 1846, 4 months, 2 Greyhound Row
Harriet Sar. Traies, 3rd March 1851, [looks like "birth"], Greyhound Row
Cheers
Sam
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Hi Bob and Sam
Thanks for your efforts. I know from the limited experience I have had of searching the London registers what a difficult task it can be.
Regarding your question about are the churches of St Mary and St Leonard Bromley the same as St Mary, Stratford le Bow, no they are not (as I understand it). The Church of St. Mary, Stratford le Bow is in Bow Road. Registers for Baptisms 1538 - 1956, marriages 1539 - 1968 and burials 1538 - 1862 are in the LMA. The church is sometimes just reffered to as Bow Church, but not to be confused with the church of Mary le Bow in the City and the origin of the well known Bow Bells of London.
You may like to look at the East of London FHS site, click on parishes at the side of the home page and you will see that the parishes they cover include Stratford le Bow and Poplar.
To learn more about how the various parishes were formed and a history of the various churches in Hackney have a look at www.parishregister.com. There is a lot of information on this site - just too much to take in.
By the way, Stratford le bow was on one side of the river, with Stratford Langthorne on the other. They built a bridge called Bow Bridge to connect the two. Stratford le Bow is sometimes called just Bow and Stratford Langthorne is usually called just Stratford! So if you see Stratford written on its own don't think it means Stratford Le Bow. But if you see Bow on its own it does mean Stratford Le Bow!!
Sam - before civil registration in 1837 deaths were not registered and each parish was responsible for its own burials. Church records will only show burials not deaths. Having said that some clergy gave more details than were actually required and chose to give the date of death as well. In the same way, churches were only required to record baptisms not date of birth, although some clergy wrote both dates in their registers.
Bob - I've just remembered that the parish register site I mentioned earlier has a search facility for St Dunstan, Hackney. I didn't find anything but searched in a bit of a rush and may have missed sometihing or the name of TRAIES may be there but spelt differently, which I didn't try.
Just think how excited we'll be if we do find something - it is a bit frustrating at the moment!
Best wishes
Bernice
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Bob
It's Bernice again. When I looked at Marylebone baptisms they were indexed but on a separate film. Are you sure that there is not a separate film for burial indexes as well. It must be a horrible task trawling through so many burials with no index. If you look again it would be worth checking if there is a separate index film.
Bernice
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Frustrating is not the word for it Bernice :(
I'm only sorry there's no registers I can look at but I'm not in London. I'd search them all if I could, this family are teasing us.
Great efforts from Bob and Sam and I am sure eventually we will get a breakthrough ;D
Kerry
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I'll follow Bernice's suggestion when I revisit LMA and recheck for an index for St Marylebone burials. The fear I have with manual searches like that it is so easy to miss an entry. This register is huge and indexing by old manual methods would be a long job so the indexing job may have been simply left for later/never.
Re the comments on the Stratford Bow/Bow/Poplar ... St Mary register - my reading from studying the internet just now - see link below - is that 3 parishes merged - see National Archives description below and the records are now held as St Mary, St Leonard, and St Andrew and area is now called Bromley not Stratford or Bow or Poplar :-
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=074-p88mry1&cid=-1&Gsm=2008-06-18
This description also refers to use of index X102/066 which is definitely the index I looked at. Unfortunately I left this search until quite late, as I mistakenly thought the register was on IGI anyway, and to add to the confusion I did it in a hurry. I marked my papers with M (marriages - which were the first entries on the microfilm) but I am fairly sure I took details from the baptisms index so I definitely need to redo this one. The National archives description is also confusing as to whether the baptisms for the period we need were on the index I looked at which adds to my uncertainty on this!
Regards,
Bob
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Hi Bob and all
When I checked the Index for baptisms in the Marylebone Index, I did so on a film ordered from the Library Catalogue of the LDS. I thought I'd check if they did one for burials, but the only year they have is an index for burials is 1811, so that is not much good. They do an index for baptisms for 1813 - 1827 which was the one I looked at. They also have a marriage index for 1754 - 1875, but I did not order this index so have not seen it. Having now looked at the LDS site, I agree with Bob, that the Marylebone burials are unlikely to have been indexed (except for the year 1811 done by the LDS)
Just a bit more about the history of the parishes - just in case it is of use. I've been browsing a bit on the Internet, and think this is correct -
Bromley St Leonard was originally part of the large parish of
Stepney from which it split in 1536. The parish church of St Leonard was St. Mary's. Bromley St Leonard was sometimes called just Bromley and sometimes Bromley by Bow. The name St. Leonard came from a 12th century convent that used to be there. Bromley St Leonard was the original parish but as time went on Bromley had other churches and smaller parishes were formed. St. Mary's the original parish church of Bromley St. Leonard was in the High Street. This church was destroyed as a result of bombing and then the construction of Blackwall Tunnel. In 1952 it united with St. Andrew's, Bromley (created in 1900) and in 1963 these two churches were united with St. Mary, Stratford Le Bow. As they did not unite until 1963, I would have expected earlier records to be under the name of the original parish, but I may be wrong about this.
I know that West Surrey FHS do some useful guides to how the London and Middlesex area parishes were formed. I got a good little map from them a few years ago which sets out the pre 1837 parishes and says when the parishes were formed. I tried to print it out and send to the list as an attachment but I couldn't do it. If anyone wants a copy, I could try sending it to your private e-mail address or it may be easier to photocopy it and post, but I would need an address for this which you may not like to give out on the list. It is A3 size, so could be a bit large to e-mail.
Looking at the link to the National Archive Site that you gave in your message, it looks as if you looked at the right index for baptisms at the time in which we are interested. I'd say you would expect to find baptisms indexed in X102/066 for the period Jan 1813 - Apr 1831. It looks as if other years are also indexed on X102/066, so you want the look at the index to film X97/262.
Regarding the parish of Marylebone. As well as the parish church there were Christchurch, Conway Road, Marylebone which dates from 1825, Holy Trinity Marylebone Road which dates from 1828, All Souls, Langham Place which dates from 1825 and finally St. Mary, Bryanstone Square which we know was close to the TRAIES family, but as it dates from 1825 is unlikely to help very much.
Bye for now
Bernice
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Hi
Steve went to the LMA yesterday and checked the St Mary Stratford Bow records for baptisms, and didn't find any "Traies". The listing was only for St Mary, and didn't mention the other churches (Bromley St Leonard etcetera). He checked the records rather than the index (x97/262).
We can try and check some of these other East End churches too.
Cheers,
Sam
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Hi Sam and all
Thanks to Steve for checking the Records of St. Mary. Stratford le Bow. Sorry he had no luck.
The River Lea seemed to be the boundary between Middlesex and Essex. As there was a lot of boat building and shipping in the area, maybe James TRAIES thought he could use some of his knowledge as a tinplate worker in the shipping industry and make more money there, than he could from making articles in tin or brass and selling them in a shop. Maybe this is why he decided at some stage to leave Marylebone and travel East. But, for some reason things did not turn out as well as he had hoped and he moved West again - this is pure guesswork of course.
The parishes of pre 1837 adjoining the river Lea from North to South were St John, Hackney (1545), St. Mary, Stratford le Bow (1538) and St. Mary, Bromley St. Leonard (1622).
Adjoining St Mary, Stratford Le bow and St. Mary, Bromley St. Leonard were St Matthew, Bethnal Green (1746)and St. Dunstan, Stepney (1568). Some smaller parishes were below these stretching down to the River Thames.
Moving west from St. Matthew, Bethnal Green comes St. Leonard Shoreditch (1558). This shares a boundary above with St. John, Hackney.
Marylebone is several parishes further west. The oldest church is St. Marylebone (1668). To the right of Marylebone is St Pancras (1660) To the left of Marylebone is St. Mary. Paddington (1655) St Mary Paddington, later became St James, but date of name change not known. Below Marylebone and Paddington are St. George Hanover. Square (1725) St. Margaret, Westminster, plus others. To the left of St. Mary. Paddington is St. Mary Abbots, Kensington (1539). Below this and stretching down to the Thames is St. Luke, Chelsea (1559).
If anyone has any questions about the formation of the parishes, I'll do my best to answer them.
Bernice
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I'm following this all with interest. Some of it is a bit confusing as I don't really know London that well at all but I like your theory about James, Bernice.
I won't be around for the next two weeks as we're off to Tuscany for a holiday. So I wish you all well with the searching and I'll raise a glass or two, or three to some luck and some broken brickwalls.
Kerry :D
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Hi all
Sorry, no I haven't found the missing baptisms, so don't get excited!! But you may be interested in one of my discoveries.
First of all go to www.rbkc.gov.uk/vmgallery, when it opens click on browse the Then and Now Image Gallery (2nd large window down). When it opens, scroll down until you reach Notting Hill Gate and images of the same scene in the 21st, 20th and 19th centuries appear. Click on the one of the 19th century and you see the scene as it was at sometime before 1864 when the Tollgate from which Notting Hill Gate got its name was taken down. James Traies was living at 10 Notting Hill Gate, (or Notting Hill High Street) in the 1850's. This is Notting Hill High Street as it was when James Traies lived there.
This could also be the print referred by someone in 1835 who wrote 'Nothing is heard but the notes of the lark, the linnet or the nightingale'. By 1840 the sleepy hamlet became a village and began being invaded by the urban working class. The building of the canal and the coming of the railway soon meant that London did not have to depend on the market gardens and farms surrounding the City for food and the urban sprawl began. Landlords built tiny terraced houses just south of the tollgate and rented rooms out to the poor. By 1903 when Charles Booth, founder of the Salvation Army, visited Notting Hill, he called it one of the worst areas in London!
I'll write a bit more about the Notting Hill area later on. I know I ramble on sometimes and don't want to bore you but I find the the growth of London fascinating.
Bye for now
Bernice
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Hi Bernice
Fascinating! What I find interesting about London is the knowledge that going back 150 years or more and it wasn't the urban sprawl we know now but lots of small villages with fields in between.
Recently I have read a series of books by C J Sansum about a London Lawyer, Matthew Shardlake and this really illustrates how different London was in the 1500s.
It is so hard to imagine it like that
Kerry
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Hi
I've been looking at various old maps of London recently, including one called 'Cary's New and Accurate Plan of London and Westminster 1795'. It includes a good enlarged version of Kensington and Paddington, both surrounded by fields.
Kensington Gravel Pits is right on the edge of the map (2nd row, 1st left of plan). The name was given to the main road that continued as Uxbridge Road and led into Oxford Street. It seems that the name was originally given to the road itself, but then also used for the area alongside the road.
As Kensington and Paddington expanded, Kensington Gravel Pits, was re-named Notting Hill Gate. Uxbridge Road became Bayswater Road due to the developement of Bayswater.
The map of 1795 shows just a few rows of cottages along the Uxbridge Road called Black Lion Row and George Row. By the 1830's further rows of small cottages had probably began to line this main route. It is quite likely that one of the rows of cottages lining Kensington Gravel Pits was given the name of Greyhound Row.
As the whole area developed, the name of Kensington Gravel Pits disappeared and was replaced by the name of Notting Hill Gate. This means that the address of Greyhound Row, Kensington Gravel Pits in the 1830's was exactly the same location as Notting Hill Gate in later years. Notting Hill Gate was just a small section of Notting Hill High Street, but the name of Notting Hill was also given to the nearby housing developement. Notting Hill Gate is still on modern maps, but the name of Notting Hill High Street has been replaced by Holland Park Avenue!
This is an extract from 'Old and New London' Vol 5. Published 1878 but probably written earlier.
"The neighbourhood of Kensington Gravel Pits, by which name is understood a district of some extent bordering on the Uxbridge Road, has long been noted for the salubrity of the air and was a favourite residence of artists, half a century ago. The High Road through the district is now known as High Street, Notting Hill and forms the Northern boundary of the suburb". (Kensington High Street formed the Southern boundary
Another extract (unfortunately no reference)
"Portobello Road grew up between the estates of Notting Hill and Paddington in a period of expansion in the late 19th century. Previously (1841) it had been a country track called PortoBello Lane connecting Kensington Gravel Pits (now Notting Hill Gate) with Kensal Green".
Bye for now
Bernice - Have a good holiday Kerry.
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Hi Bernice
Had a fantastic holiday, if a little hot, 38C doesn't sound that hot, but it took a while to acclimatise to it. ;D
The geographical information is very interesting and useful. I've been to Portobello Road market, funny to think I may have been walking in James's footsteps. :D
Kerry
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Hi,
Took a break from searching baptism registers - instead have been transcribing two claims involving Traies family members held at National Archives.
Have now put part transcripts on the website:-
The Traies v Wivell case involves a claim by William Traies (husband of Mary Bond) and his children against Abraham Wivell one of the executors of his brother John's will. I find it really fascinating. I think it more or less settles that James grandfather was the Samuel who married Elizabeth Chubb but I may be missing something. It also confirms that Abraham Wivell was the uncle of Abraham Wivell the artist. Also references more buildings and places in London with Traies connections at that time - following from Bernice's recent post. Thanks to Bernice for pointing out that this document existed. The transcipt is linked to the will transcript
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txb/John_Traies_1787_will.htm
The Traies v Traies case involves a claim by William Trobridge/Traies illegitimate son of Mary Traies against his grandmother and Aunts. It is very useful as it establishes that Mary's father William Traies who married Rebecca Perkins died out in the male line. It also resolves the mystery of which Mary Traies fathered the child. The link to this transcript is associated with this family
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt00.htm#16w_rp
Regards,
Bob
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Very interesting Bob :)
Presumably it must be someone in John's family from St Pancras that James went to work for in London. That appears to be where the first few children were baptised. Have we checked the registers there for a marriage to Hannah? Yes I am sure someone has.
I need to print out this thread and reread.
Kerry
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There is a gap of around 20years between the death of John Traies and the appearance of James and he left no children and no wife. His late wife Mary Porter may have had relatives around that James could connect with. We know Abraham Wivell was around but relationships with the Traies family would probably be non-existent by time James arrived.
We show Jame's sister Ann marrying Robert Humphreys in 1814 - may be there is a pre-existing family connection there. Abraham Wivell the executor's (not the artist) two wives may have had connections that James could use also one of William Traies's executors was a tinplate worker in Devon - perhaps that is the link.
In short there seem to be many possibilities but nothing is immediately obvious. Will work on it - it will possibly also explain James's moves around London and lead us to the missing christenings.
Bob
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HI Bob
Thanks for all the further information on the various members of the TRAIES and WIVELL families. I've now read it all through at least three times and it is just starting to sink in.
You need to be a lawyer to understand some of this and the fact that lots of people of different generations were given the same Christian name doesn't help!
I had already looked at the WIVELL site you mentioned and I also looked at another site www.bastonfamily.co.uk to see if I could find any mention of Daniel BASTON the other executor of the will of John TRAIES. I did not find a Daniel BASTON, but what I did find was, according to this site, there was a John and Mary BASTON who were in St. Pancras by 1840. John BASTON had been born in Ottery, Devon in 1795 and his occupation was a tin plate worker and Gas Meter Maker, as were members of our TRAIES family.
The name of BADSTONE appeared in Crediton when a John TRAIES married a Rose BADSTONE and a Daniel BADSTONE thought to be a brother of this Rose is also on one of your trees. Presumably in the way that TRAIES is spelt in different ways, so BADSTONE and BASTON could be the same name.
I can't see any connection with the BASTON/BADSTONE and our James TRAIES, but just thought I'd mention that the person living in St Pancras and James TRAIES had the same occupation.
Bernice
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Dear Bernice,
I feel that the John Baston on the Baston website is related to Daniel Baston the executor. The area of London fits, the occupation fits, and his roots in Ottery St Mary about 10 miles from Exeter fit. I reckon you've once again come up with an important lead that may help unravel the identity of the John Traies who married Rose Badstone in Exeter - there is a strong possibility he is the same John Traies who married Sarah Pidlar and remarried after Sarah's death and is the father of John Traies of the 1787 will and I think that makes him great grandfather of James. If so John Baston would not be a blood relative of James but related by the second marriage. As you say Baston and Batstone/Badstone are almost certainly different spellings/pronunciations of the same name.
Incidentally I had looked at that Baston website, saw the intro about a Baston family from Bampton Oxfordshire and dismissed the site as relating to an unconnected family but unlike you was not thorough enough to scroll down to read the section about other Baston families in London. It is excellent that they have taken the trouble to post that information on their website.
It does looks as though John Baston came to London after James.
More research is needed on the Bastons to see if/how John is related to Rose Badstone.
Very interesting lead,
Bob
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Hello all,
I have been reading this thread for the last little while and it has re-peaked my interest in my TRAIES connection. Have to love this family!!!!
I follow Jane (TRAIES) and William Henry ROFFE, sister and brother respectively to Ann (TRAIES) and George ROFFE.
I do have a couple thoughts and look forward to your comments, as I am obviously joining a group of TRAIES experts.
Re Jane and William Henry in 1851. I have searched for the family in 1851 for while and have concluded that the census for the street/area of Kensington was missed or destroyed. Here is my reasoning, (please I look to you if these assumptions are too great!)
The four older children (including premarriage Ann Jane, William James, James John and my Jane Traies) were born in Marylebone or at least christened there.
The next three sisters, (Harriet, Hannah Mary and Marianne) were born in Kensington. (the Kingston found on 1861 was probably Kensington with an accent?). Since Hannah was born in 1851, I bought her birth certificate and found that at her registration (she was born Nov 8, 1851) she was born at Durham Place (as was Jane's residence at the time of registration). I cannot find any 1851 census for around this street. Assuming that they were living at Durham Place, earlier that year when the census was taken, and that we can target the census for a particular area, then I conclude that the census records are not available. (PS i have particularly found your knowledge of the London area at that time interesting.
Re James TRAIES and his many wives. Is there a custom/social norm that might have encouraged a man to marry his housekeeper rather than live unmarried together in a house. I think that this is what may have happened for our James at least in his later years.. (Maybe this totally obvious to others but I am relatively new to the family history search). If we look at all wives that we have records for (Ann SUTTON, Martha LOOKER, Jane BERRY, and Mary JONES.) All were spinsters at time of marriage....Particularly interesting was the fact Jane BERRY was involved in the family before she and James married and even before Martha died (Sept 2 1842). Jane and James married Nov 13, 1842, and Jane BERRY was a witness at Ann and George ROFFE's wedding on Aug 11, 1842. (Kerry I think you sent me this info) So obviously she was familiar to the family enough to join William Henry ROFFE as a witness, rather than Ann's sister Jane.
Do we have any information on the witnesses of Ann SUTTON and James TRAIES. I wondered if there are clues through this angle as to where Ann was from. Benj. Crook and Sarah _______ Tarbson? I am having trouble reading this.
It is interesting that if Hannah and Ann are not the same people, then those children of Ann's are the ones that we have yet to find....were they taken to a home parish to be baptised????
These are my thoughts. I look forward to your comments.
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Hi Sigplat
I'm no expert at all and sometimes feel I'm really floundering with this Traies family but I have to agree with your theory about James marrying his housekeepers. Jane was definitely known to the family. I don't know the legalities but have wondered about this myself. Or maybe its just a coincidence. :-\
Ann Sutton came from Hackney and I think we have checked the Hackney records for baptisms of the later children??
Kerry
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Hi Sigplat,
Thanks for your observations. I'll consider more fully but first thoughts:-
The Benj Crook is witness to many marriages at this church/time so you can probably ignore him. The Sarah ...? is presumably a friend/relative of the couple. Like you I could not transcribe the surname with any certainty - I think it could be a useful clue - worth spending more time on it.
One thing that puzzled me is that Ann Sutton appears to have signed her name which indicates she was educated - not all that common for women of that period I understand. I noticed that the signature has a similar slant to that of James. It did cross my mind that James may have signed for her but I suspect that would probably be illegal - he did not sign for Martha Looker.
Bob
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Hi everyone
I've just found this topic so I'm sorry to bust in unannounced.
The names Bob Freeman and Abraham Wivell (the artist) was my 4 x G. Grandfather. I found the listing on the web for the tentative family tree etc. which I think is down to one of you. The wivell.info site that it links to is run by me.
I'd like to hear from anyone who is interested in pooling information on the Wivell tree.
Regards
Bob
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Dear Bob,
Absolutely agree. Had intended to contact you shortly anyway. Is a big subject. Needs another thread. Am sending you a personal mail.
Bob
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Bob ( One of us will have to change! I'll go for BobF ).
Very true it's a huge subject. I have loads of information on Abraham (the artist) and there's still more coming in. You seem to have done a lot more research at the various local archives in the South which I've not been able to do yet as I'm based in the Midlands.
The wivell.info web site is one of those things that I am always meaning to get more of my information onto but never get the time.
I'll wait for your e-mail and impart more information then.
Regards
BobF
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Hi everyone
I've been away for a few weeks and am only just catching up with e-mail messages.
It was good to see some more activity on this board and to know that Sigplat and BobF have joined us - welcome to both of you.
It is an interesting idea of Sigplat's that James TRAIES kept marrying his housekeepers. It could certainly explain how he kept finding these middle aged single ladies to marry so quickly to replace a former wife! Having said that of course it is only a theory, census returns where we have found James have never shown him to have had a housekeeper as well as a wife.
I agree with Sigplat that it is annoying not to be able to find William and Jane ROFFE (nee TRAIES) on the 1851 census. I've just spend further time searching for them tonight, but no luck. There are notes for each census describing areas known to be missing or damaged. On the 1841 census it clearly stated that all of Paddington and parts of Kensington were known to be missing. This explains why James TRAIES and family were not found in 1841. However, the notes on the 1851 census only show some of the parishes in Cambridgeshire, Suffolk, Essex and Dorset to be missing, and only some of Lancashire (mainly Manchester area) to have been damaged by water. This suggests that Durham Place in the Kensington/Chelsea area of Middlesex where Sigplat expected to find her ROFFE family should be included on the 1851 census.
If Deb USA reads this message do you have any ideas on how to find William Henry ROFFE and his wife Jane (nee TRAIES)? You have had some great successes on finding various people who were wrongly transcribed.
Best wishes
Bernice
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Hi Traies People ;D
I have been receiving replies to this thread and have looked for the Roffe family in 1851 without any success... I had thought that maybe the pages/censuses for that area may have been missing .... now that you, Bernice, say they are not I will look again ... they must be mistranscribed somewhere. >:( :(
You know me ;) I will seek them out LOL
deb
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Hi everybody,
The following records at National Archives at Kew may relate to James’s Uncle William christened 1758 in Exeter. If so, the occupations of the four brothers (per the John Traies of St Pancras will) would be Joseph and William - soldiers - Samuel and James - tuckers in Exeter. Record details may also provide a clue to James early whereabouts in London.
WO 121/30/320
WILLIAM TRAISE Born EXETER, Devonshire Served in 28th Foot Regiment Discharged aged 42 after 22 years of service Certificates of service Date: 1797.
WO 121/154/81
WILLIAM TRACES alias WILLIAM TRAIS Born [Not Known]
Served in Tower Hamlets Militia; 28th Foot Regiment Discharged aged [Not Known]
Residence or place where pension paid stated in document. See film image 184
Covering date: 1802
I’ll look up these records when I next go to Kew - hopefully early next week. Failed to spot them before under these spelling variations.
Bob
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Interesting Bob and I look forward to seeing what you find.
The Traies family have been on the back burner for me over the last couple of months as I have researched closer to home - Sussex.
But oh the mysteries still remain ;D
Kerry
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Hi,
Looked at 2 microfilm records for Sergeant William Traise summarised below - signature is clearly spelt TRAIES so he is definitely a Traies. I reckon he is James's Uncle - all seems to fit. If so, he possibly came to London about 1775 where he joined the army having originally been apprenticed to a Fuller.
Tower Hamlets Militia
1. Discharge note dated 17th November 1797 - 28th Regiment of Infantry of which Lieutenant General Prescott is Colonel
Sergeant William Traise born in the Parish of Trinity, Exeter, Devon aged 42 years and by trade a fuller hath served honestly and faithfully 22 years but being consumptive and sickly and having contracted his illness at Gibraltar about the first day of January 1797 is hereby discharged and humbly recommended as a proper object of His Majesty’s Royal Bounty of Chelsea Hospital.
This document is signed by Wm Traies (spelt TRAIES)
2. Enrolment certificate signed and dated 24th April 1802 at Mile End – 2nd Royal Regiment of which Matthew Smith is Colonel
Sergeant Wm Traise in Captain Merceron’s Company was enrolled to serve as a substitute in the said Militia 20th December 1797 and whose time expires 19th December 1802
Regards,
Bob
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Hello Bob
Thanks for the message.
Presumably both National Archive references are for the same William TRAIES. I have been trying to interpret exactly what they mean!
As I understand it, although recommended to receive a pension from the Chelsea Hospital, following his discharge in Nov 1797, it was probably refused. A month after his discharge it seems he was enrolled to serve as a substitute in the militia from Dec 1797 until Dec 1802. Is this how you read it, or am I missing something? Even if his health was not good, if desparate for men he may have been accepted.
Tower Hamlets of course includes Bow and Mile End and Hackney all of which we have come across trying to trace 'our' James TRAIES, so as you say it could well indicate a connection between William and James.
Regarding the time that James TRAIES spent in Marylebone, it is obviously such a shame that the 1841 census for the area is missing. However, the census returns for Marylebone in 1821 and 1831 do exist. I have ordered these through our local LDS Library and received a phonecall yesterday to say that they have arrived.
I have arranged to go to view them next Tuesday afternoon and will let you know if I find any entries on either film for TRAIES (or similar). Obviously the information given is going to be very limited but hopefullly it should give the name of the householder - anything else would be a bonus.
Regards
Bernice
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Hello Bernice,
That is the way I read it. It is strange that the enrolment certificate is dated April 1802 - you would have thought that it would have been dated December1797 - perhaps William lost an earlier one issued. Captain Merceron may be related to the Huguenot family of that name in the East End. The documents are not on the same microfilm but both refer to Sergeant William Traies. In the first his name is written as Traise on the documents but he signs as "Wm Traies". The transcription I made of the second document at Kew actually shows name spelt as "Traies" although I mistranscribed it as Traise on my previous post - he did not sign that document.
As both documents relate to a Sergeant William Traies spelt that way I think that the two documents almost certainly relate to the same person. I'll add a fuller transcription to the website shortly.
Next time I go to Kew I'll get photocopies of the documents - I was in a rush on my last visit and should have spent more time examining them including getting photocopies.
What particularly interested me was that the 1802 document was issued at Mile End where James Traies junior who also joined the army was born. It raises the possibility that there was a Traies presence in that area (such as a retired Sergeant William Traies or maybe another Traies relative such as William's brother Joseph who also appears to have been in the army).
Regards,
Bob
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Dear Bernice,
I've now added the transcripts to the website under this link:-
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txb/txb17s_ec_w_career.htm
In note 7 on the enrolment certifcate, I've added links to the history of the Tower Hamlets militia and the links between the militia and the Merceron family. The link to the British History on-line site gives absolutely fascinating background on London's East End at that time.
I feel that that circumstantial evidence is that this William Traies is James's Uncle but it is not proven. I agree that further research is needed on the enrolment certificate - and have outlined a few things that can be done - the London Metropolitan Archives may have further records that can assist.
If it is James's uncle he may have been living in the East End when James came to London. He may have married etc... and there may have been a brother or sister nearby.
Bob
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Hi all
Well that certainly might explain what James was doing in the Hackney area when he was apparently there marrying all these different women!
Kerry
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Quick question
Do we know who the William Traies buried 15 April 1831 at bunhill Fields age 2 years and 6 months was. His address was Powell Street?
Everytime I do a burials look up on FindMyPast for Traies he always comes up.
Kerry
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Hi everyone :)
Kerry ...have you seen this one on IGI, extracted
WILLIAM HUGH DOWNMAN TRAIES s/o William Traies and Maria
18 FEB 1827 Holy Trinity, Exeter
deb
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Hi Deb
Long time no speak :D
Thanks for that, I can slot him in and he's not my direct line. For a minute there I thought he might be an unknown child of our James. ::)
Hang on though, if he was born in Exeter, would he have died in London. Hmmm this family ::) ::)
Kerry
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IGI, extracted
William Traies = MARIA RICHARDS DOWNMAN
19 APR 1825 Holy Trinity, Exeter
do you think these might be your Traies rellies?
deb
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From what I remember of Bob's tree they are on another line in London, I can'f find the right part of the tree on his site at the moment http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt00.htm
Kerry
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Blimey ...I need to reread .... ::) :P
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Found them on my paper copy they are of the Crediton line so not linked to my line until a long way back. ::)
Kerry
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Dear Kerry,
Thanks for raising the the unsolved mystery of the 1831 Bunhill burial of William Traies of Powell Street - I'd clean forgotten about it.
Of the TRAIES family we know of he could theoretically be a son of William Masters TRAIES and Henriette Louisa KIRBY
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17w_mb.htm#18j_em
or he could be the son of William TRAIES and Hannah KNIGHT on the other branch of the family but both appear improbable.
but there are two other unplaced TRAIES references:-
1. The seaman’s will of George TRAIES of HMS Boadicea 1804. George clearly signs his name as TRAIES and leaves his property to his beloved mother Ann TRAIES living in Stonehouse Plymouth (but there were Trayes/Treays families there including an Ann)
2. Elizabeth TRAIES (allegedly signed that way) who witnesses two marriages at the church of St Matthew Bethnal Green on 27Jul1834 – John LAKE & Jane Welch TUCKER and Mary Ann TUCKER & Robert Francis SCAIF. John LAKE and his wife subsequently named a daughter born in Southwark Mar Q 1847 Elizabeth Trayes LAKE. It could just be a coincidence but James’s uncle Joseph TRAIES was like his brother William (whom we now know had links to this part of London) a soldier and his wife’s maiden name was Mary LAKE and his family seem to disappear leaving no trace.
It is just possible that the above named are not true TRAIES and are of another TR**S family. When next in LMA I’ll look up the St Matthew Bethnal Green marriage and baptism records and also see if I can find William Traies's baptism.
Does anyone know where Powell Street was in 1831?
Regards,
Bob
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Hi all,
Bob - If Powell Street still exists it is now probably known by another name. I believe the LMA has a book showing a street index for London which shows the name changes that took place over the years. Alternatively you may find it by looking at the street indexes available for some of the census returns.
Kerry - I have ancestors buried in the Bunhill Fields Burial Grounds. They lived in Islington and Norton Folgate. Norton Folgate (Falgate) is a small area bordered by Bethnal Green, Shoreditch and Spitalfields. What do the letters FindMyPast mean? I don't think I have come across this abbreviation before.
All - I went to the LDS Family History Centre yesterday and examined the films I had ordered for the 1821 and 1831 census returns for Marylebone. I'm afraid they did not really supply us with much more information, except confirming that the TRAIES family were at 37 Queen Street in both returns.
Although they seemed to be the main occupiers of the property, there were actually 4 families living in the house. All the houses in the street seemed to contain more than one family (usually 3 or 4).
The 1821 census just listed the name of the main family, then columns of details such as number of families in house, males in house including children, females in house including children, no of families employed in trade, manufacturer or handicraft, or agriculture. At 37 Queen Street, the number of males under the age of 5 were 3, for ages 5-10 were 4, for ages 10-15 were 3, ages 15-20 were 1, ages 20-30 were 0, ages 30-40 was 1 and 40-50 were 3. The numbers for females under the age of 5 were 3, ages 5-10 were 2, for ages age 10-15 was 1, for age 15-20 was 1, for age 20-30 was 1, for age 30-40 were 3, for age 40-50 were 2 and for age 60-70 there was 1. Totals were 15 males and 14 females and 29 in total. The name TRAIES was actually spelt TRAILES.
The details on the 1831 census were similar but the name of TRAIES was spelt TRACE. There were still four families in the house, but no way of knowing if it was the same four families that lived there in 1821. Ages were not given on this census but there were 6 males and 9 females in the house (presumably if it was the same four families, some of them had now died, were in service or had married as there were now only 15 people in total, just half the number of occupants of ten years earlier.
It is not possible to know how many were actually members of the TRAIES family in either census.
Best wishes
Bernice
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Hi Bernice
FindMyPast - Findmypast.co.uk, sorry I'm always being reminded at work not to use abbreviations all the time, it is bad form.
They have a city of london burial index, I think I might try TRACE and TRAILES and see if anything comes up. I wonder if that might what we need to use to find the mysterious Hannah?
So we know there was a TRAIES family there in 1821 and 1831, now how the heck can we find out who they were??
Kerry
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Hi Berrnice,
Although the census returns don't give a lot of genealogical info. they do tell us more about how James's' family lived. The buildings in Queen Street seem to have been tenements and presumably James occupied the best position in the 37 Queen St Tenement.
I assume he is the male occupant aged 30 - 40 in the 1821 return and presumably his wife is one of the similarly aged females. I can't find any London tenement museums but if you visit New York the Manahattan Lower East Side Tenement Museum portrays tenement life in a very vivid way - it is a really interesting visit.
I find it all very fascinating. It seems that James grandfather died young and his family fell on hard times unlike other branches of the family.
Bob
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I find it fascinating too. A tenement museum was featured, I think in Glasgow in an episode of Who do you think are and coming from a rural area as I do, I was astounded how people lived in the cities in those days.
I'm glad that you think James occupied the best position, I hate to think of him being anywhere else. I feel quite close to the old whatsit and his many wives. ;D
Kerry
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Hi Bob
Just a quick comment that I intended posting earlier, relating to the enrollment certificate of William TRAIES. He had enrolled in the militia in December 1987 and had agreed to serve for five years. You were a bit puzzled by the certificate being dated April 1802.
The Peace of Amiens which ended the war with France had been signed 25 March 1802 and it was agreed that all branches of the militia were to be disbanded. This meant he did not have to serve until December 1802 as originally agreed, but was officially discharged in April 1802, soon after the signing of the peace.
Maybe as you have already suggested he could have lost a certificate given to him at the time of enrollment or maybe they were not given a certificate until they had served their time. In his case this was in April 1802 and not December 1802 as originally agreed.
Unfortunately, the peace did not last long and the militia was resumed just 14 months later (but presumably without William TRAIES).
Bernice
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Dear Bernice,
Thanks for your post. What you say explains both the date and the filing of the enrolment certificate under the heading of discharge papers. I would never found that out - just like I would never have thought of looking up pre 1841 censuses - never knew about them. That is the benefit of research teamwork, I guess.
I wonder what William did after leaving the militia - he would have been freed up for full time work but would he have gone back to his old trade of fuller? Would he have gone back to Exeter where the old trades seemed in decline? James's daughter Jane was born 7 years later. James must have met up with William assuming he was still in London.
I am sure we will discover much more although the sources of the information are not immediately apparent.
Regards,
Bob
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Dear Kerry,
Thanks for raising the the unsolved mystery of the 1831 Bunhill burial of William Traies of Powell Street - I'd clean forgotten about it.
Of the TRAIES family we know of he could theoretically be a son of William Masters TRAIES and Henriette Louisa KIRBY
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17w_mb.htm#18j_em
or he could be the son of William TRAIES and Hannah KNIGHT on the other branch of the family but both appear improbable.
but there are two other unplaced TRAIES references:-
1. The seaman’s will of George TRAIES of HMS Boadicea 1804. George clearly signs his name as TRAIES and leaves his property to his beloved mother Ann TRAIES living in Stonehouse Plymouth (but there were Trayes/Treays families there including an Ann)
2. Elizabeth TRAIES (allegedly signed that way) who witnesses two marriages at the church of St Matthew Bethnal Green on 27Jul1834 – John LAKE & Jane Welch TUCKER and Mary Ann TUCKER & Robert Francis SCAIF. John LAKE and his wife subsequently named a daughter born in Southwark Mar Q 1847 Elizabeth Trayes LAKE. It could just be a coincidence but James’s uncle Joseph TRAIES was like his brother William (whom we now know had links to this part of London) a soldier and his wife’s maiden name was Mary LAKE and his family seem to disappear leaving no trace.
It is just possible that the above named are not true TRAIES and are of another TR**S family. When next in LMA I’ll look up the St Matthew Bethnal Green marriage and baptism records and also see if I can find William Traies's baptism.
Does anyone know where Powell Street was in 1831?
Regards,
Bob
Dear Bob
It would be interesting to know who this poor young chap was, and also cross him off being yet another child of our James. Lets hope we can find out.
Kerry
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Hi all
Re. William TRAIES of Powell Street, buried Bunhill Fields Burial Ground.
Kerry wanted to know which family he belonged to and Bob asked where is Powell Street. I don't know which family he belonged to, but I have now been able to locate Powell Street.
Try going to www.archivemaps.com. Near the top of the page you will see London Maps printed. Click on this and up comes a variety of interesting maps of London. Click on the one called 'Mogg's Strangers Guide to London 1834'. There is a street index which tells you which section you need to click to locate the street you require. Powell Street is listed as Section E1. Look for a small green square called Kings Square and just below it is Powell Street. Powell Street leads into City Road.
Bunhill Row is on Section E2 of the map. Bunhill Fields Burial Ground is on land that stretched from Bunhill Row to City Road, so was very close to where little William TRAIES had lived. I think Powell Street would have come under the parish of St. Luke's, Old Street.
Bunhill Fields has a very interesting history and was originally called Tindals Burying ground - some early maps still use this name. I first became interested in Bunhill Fields when I discovered three of my own ancestors had been buried there in the early 1800's.
On the same site that I used to find Powell Street in 1834, other maps and plans are available. One that may be of interest to Kerry, is St. Marylebone church in 1829. Just click on it and it a good picture of the church and surrounding area at that time comes up - sadly it doesn't help us to find those missing baptisms though! However, we do know that this was where 'your' Samuel and 'my husband's' Ann TRAIES were christened.
best wishes
Bernice
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Thanks Bernice
Very interesting, interestingly enough, in 1861 Samuel Traies (James son) was living at Pickard Street which Powell Street seems to go off. Renamed something else now though and on the 1834 map seems to be York Street! And the Turner family lived quite close as well near the basin. Emma, Samuel's daughter married James Turner. It feels a bit more real when you can track it like that!
Kerry
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Bob
You might be interesting in looking at reply #21 of this thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=345587.new#new I happened to notice that Frank Collins married an Elizabeth Trayes in Plymouth and my Traies alarm went off. Justkia thinks she might have found a birth for her.
Kerry :D
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Dear Kerry,
Thanks for that - it definitely fits - I'll add that to the website plus the census details. In Post 23 the John Force/Jane Townsend Exeter marriage of 1784 is interesting it is the same year and location as the Samuel Traies/Jane Townsend marriage - may be just a coincidence but they could be related I guess.
Bob
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Arr I knew the name Townsend rang a bell, definitely worth investigating further.
Kerry
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Hi Traies researchers :)
Sorry to interrupt this conversation :P but have been doing a little investigating ... this is for Bob!
I think I have your William Traies = Maria Downman
1841
Trinity, Exeter
South??y
William Traies 45 Painter Y
Maria 38 Y
William 14 Y
John 11 Y
Henry 5 y
Sarah Causey 26 FS Y
transcribed as PEAIRS ;D
deb
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I knew it ... I am hooked again LOL ;D
filling in som gaps for Bob's site;
re;
Samuel Traies s/o John Traies and Jane Holmes = Mary Ann Elston
Bob has 1861; 1871 and 1901 missing;
1861...transcribed as FRAIES
Park St,
Samuel Traies head mar 29 tailor b Crediton
Mary Ann wife 30 formerly a servant b Sandford
??well Elston visitor 2 b Upton Hellions
RG9/1472 53 25
1871
Stanberry's?? Court , High st, Crediton
Samuel 39, tailor and Mary Ann 41 Traies are still together and have a lodger, David Daniels widower, currier b Wales, Carmitheshire(sic)
1901... Transcribed as TRAVES
Vennors ?? Crt
Crediton
Samuel Traies head mar 73 tailor own account at home b Crediton
Marian (sic) wife 73 b sandford
RG13/2129 28 11
deb :)
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Thanks Deb, sterling work as always and do you think if there was a prize for the most mistranscribed surname, Traies would be in with a chance ::) ;D
Kerry
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Deb,
Brilliant. No wonder attempts to find the 1841 William Traies census return had failed prior to you getting onto the case. Maria Downman's age is interesting. The IGI entry gives her birth as 5Jun1798 and baptism 25Dec1804 (C050901). Age 38 indicates that the IGI birth date given may be wrong.
The name TRAIES must be the most mistranscribed ever. The only good thing about it is that it is such an odd spelling that if iyou ever find the name TRAIES spelt that way it nearly always is a TRAIES - not a transcription of another name.
Rootschat tells me you've sent more while I am writing this. I'll post this now and get back to you on the later posts.
Many thanks,
Bob
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oooo Hi again
Bob .... found this ...you had mentioned that John Downman the artist had married Elizabeth Jackson and that no record of their marriage or children's baptisms exist ... I read the 'info' about John Downman, artist and noticed that one child was Isabella Chloe ....
LOOK:
IGI extracted
ISABELLA CHLOE DOWNMAN d/o John Downman and Elizabeth
born 7 JUL 1786
chr 2 JUL 1787 Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, London
Okay ...supposedly Maria Richards Downman = William Traies is maybe/supposedly the daughter of John Downman, the famous artist. I have been working through and I beg to differ ...sorry :-\ ...errr although she may be related to him somehow....
John Downman was siezed by the press gang in 1775 , they took him 'to sea' for 2 years ...he returned to find his wife and children in a garret in Cambridge (his wife and children died early). He continued to do his portraits . He moved with his family to St James Street in 1777 and stayed there til 1785 whenhe moved to Leicester Field. During this time he had gone to Exeter and married Elizabeth Jackson in 1778 In 1795 he moved to Fitzroy Street and STAYED THERE until 1802 he was made A.R.A. in 1795
If he was in London during these years ...which has been well documented...How on earth could he be having Maria Richards Downman and all her siblings in Exeter from 1792 (Frances Ann Downman) to 1810 (Catherine Savery Downman)
So in 1795 , John Downman , the famed artist was made A R A , at THE SAME TIME Maria Richards Downman's sister was born in Exeter (Ann Allen Downman b 30 NOV 1795 , chr 25 DEC 1804 )
John Downman moved to various places and in 1804 to Picadilly, where he did a portrait of Nelson ...he later moved to the country (Kent) but kept a room at Picadilly.
it seems that he only visited Exeter during these years as he was painting up in London!
hopefully this may help in finding out what Maria Richards Traies nee Downman's relationship is to the famous Downmans.
deb
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Hi again
I have found william Traies, the landscape artist b 1789 crediton in 1871
1871
Transcribed as William TRAVIS, b 1840
Parkerswell?? Cottage. , St leonard Exeter
William Mugford head mar 37 dairyman b Topsham
Emma wife 35 b exeter
William Traies boarder widr 81 Artist Landscape Painter b Crediton
sarah Mugford niece 11 domestic servant b topsham
deb :)
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Dear Deb,
I think the following are running certainties:-
1. Maria Richards Downman (wife of William Traies the artist) is the daughter of John Downman and Elizabeth Symons who married on the 4th April 1790 (IGI M50741)
2. Her father John Downman is NOT John Downman RA the artist for reasons you so clearly state.
I think the following are highly probable but not absolute certainties:-
3. Her father John Downman is the son of Hugh Downman and Ann (nee Richards) christened at Exminster in 1747 (IGI C050541)
and the brother of Hugh Downman the Exeter poet and physician christened at Alphington in 1740 (IGI C050171)
4. John Downman RA is a cousin of her father (ie the son of a brother - currently unidentified – of the Hugh Downman who married Ann Richards in 1738 at St Kerrian Exeter (IGI M050951)
The queries I have relate to the biography of John Downman RA:-
5. It states that in 1778 he married a second time to Elizabeth Jackson daughter of the William Jackson the Exeter composer and musician, friend of Gainsborough etc.
6. The only marriage of John Downman RA I have found so far is his marriage to Mary Jackson a daughter of William Jackson the composer at St Peter Cathedral Exeter in 1806 (IGI M052451). This marriage is not referenced in the biography but it definitely refers to John Downman RA as is confirmed in this British History online link – note 125.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=50576#fn125
The biography does state that he was with his cousin Hugh Downman the physician at Exeter in 1806.
7. Did John Downman RA marry two of William Jackson’s daughters or have the marriages been confused? Is it possible that the 1778 marriage was to another Elizabeth (not nee Jackson)? In my limited experience of family history research, I have come across the husband of one sister then going on to marry another twice so it is not all that uncommon. It is possible but it is strange that this third marriage is ignored in what we can see of this apparently well researched biography.
The baptism of daughter Isabella Chloe that you have found supports the statement that John had a wife Elizabeth in 1786/7 and a daughter of that name so possibly my worry that the biography is wrong about other things such as her maiden name is unfounded.
I know too little about William Traies to speculate on how he and Maria came to meet and whether John Downman who was considerably older played a part.
Regards,
Bob
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Hi everyone :)
Hi Bob ...i am all over the place ...I get onto your site at one place and end up looking for a whole different family on another place ..LOL ;D
Just noticed something ...from your site;
m. 4Feb1814 Crediton, Devon. John TRAIES and Ann POPHAM (IGI M050741)
?1841 Census Topsham John Traies 50 MS Yes (entry under TRAIER)
Johnna Fowler 40 Yes
This is actually Samuel Traies (Traier) , his brother, that is with Johanna Fowler on the 1841
............................................................................
John Traies and Ann Popham had a son George Traies b 1814 Crediton = Martha HOLIGROVE
I noticed you didn't have George on the 1851 census ....LOl found him ...
1851
St Lukes, Finsbury
57 Golden Lane
Geoe Trees head unm 37 lab b Crediton
with other unrelated people living with him
HO107/1522 263 31
I know all of this is not helping much ... I just like to fill in gaps ::) :P
deb
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more gaps
George Traies 1814 crediton = Martha Holigrove
1861..transcribed as TRAVIS
St Lukes
Lambeth? Passage
George Traies head mar 47 b Devon Creader (sic)
Matha wife 43 b ditto
Ann Tremblen/tremblett?? wid visitor 73 b ditto
Elizabeth Traies dau 7 b st Lukes
George Traies son 5 b ditto
William Traies 4 b ditto
RG9/209 53 19
added ...oops didn't mean to post ... had not finished finding them ...will add more later ...dinner time :)
deb
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Deb,
The census returns do more than just fill in gaps eg:-
The 1871 census for artist William Traies solves where he lived after all his children had died.
The 1841 census correction for John Traies indicates that his wife had died before then.
The 1851 census entry for George Traies references Golden Lane which rings a bell – the previous references are in fact burial records :-
Susan TREAYS buried at Golden Lane 12Srep1852 age 71 Address Caroline Place Goswell Street
Ann TRAIS buried 20th June 1852 Golden Lane age 84 so born about 1768 AAD 10 Cherry Tree Court White Cross Lane
But then Chery Tree Court rings a bell
1824 George Nangle junior and William Traies, Cherry Tree Court Aldersgate Street London Silversmiths 1 Feb 1824 (Law Advertiser)
Possibly all coincidences but sometimes such things may resolve a mystery.
Bernice, Kerry
Re William Traies soldier have added transcription of the reverse side of the 1802 discharge document on the website. Appears William by then almost certainly living at Chelsea Hospital – if he had consumption unlikely he would have lived very long. He doesn’t seem to have married so this looks literally a dead end. Still worth looking up Chelsea records and 28th Foot Regiment records on off chance they might yield a nugget.
GardenerBob (not much gardening at moment)
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Hello,
William the soldier again! I take back what I wrote in my last post.
Deb’s TRAIES mistranscriptions set me thinking to search National Archives using the most common mistranscriptions that Deb finds. I keyed in the most common one I could think of first - FRAIES - and hey presto William the soldier pops up again - first item in the list:-
WO121/184
WILLIAM FRAIES Born [Not Known] Served in 28th Foot Regiment Discharged aged [Not Known] Original certificate of discharge missing. Residence or place where pension paid stated in document. See film image (Part 2) 200 . WILLIAM FRAIES Born [Not Known Date: 1819.
The 1819 date implies he may have been alive until then. Could be another confusing document to transcribe here.
Have a feeling there may be more of these.
Bob
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Excellent news Bob and I just wonder if I go back through all the websites I have ever searched for Fraies, Praies etc etc etc whether I would find more Traies ::)
Kerry
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Hello Bob
Do you think the reason the original certificate was missing was because on the certificate of 1797 the name was spelt TRAISE and had been filed somewhere under the letter 'T'. In your latest find of him under FRAIES presumably they had looked for the original under the letter 'F' so did not find it. It would certainly seem that he and William TRAISE (TRAIES) were the same person.
By the way, have you come across a reference to a Henry William TRAIS, whose will reference indicates he died at Pentonville, Middlesex in 1820. Do you have or have you seen this will, or do you already know who Henry William was?
Deb - Nice to see you back. With so many different spellings and all the different families, it is hard to keep track of who's who. It's a good job that you and Bob manage to keep track of the overall picture!
Bernice
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Dear Bernice,
Re William FRAIES - the wrongly indexed name could certainly account for the failure to link up with the other records. Reckon odds are it is our William.
The Henry William TRAIS will you mention is interesting. His wife's daughter married Charles Grimes the finder of the Yarra river in Australia - there is a bridge in Melbourne named after him. I can't find out where Henry William TRAIS and his father fit in if anywhere but the surname looks suspiciously like one of the West Country TR**S lot.
I have transcribed his and his father's will - you will find them on this link:-
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txr/trais_wills.htm
I probably ought to contact some Aussie historian - they may be interested in the passing reference to Charles Grimes and are possibly not aware of this Will, but I don't think it really adds anything of importance.
Gardener Bob (even less gardening at moment)
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Hi all
After a few days off-line ...I have come back to the Traies for a 'search' fix LOL
re : George Traies bc 1814 Crediton
more gaps
George Traies 1814 crediton = Martha Holigrove
1861..transcribed as TRAVIS
St Lukes
Lambeth? Passage
George Traies head mar 47 b Devon Creader (sic)
Matha wife 43 b ditto
Ann Tremblen/tremblett?? wid visitor 73 b ditto
Elizabeth Traies dau 7 b st Lukes
George Traies son 5 b ditto
William Traies 4 b ditto
RG9/209 53 19
added ...oops didn't mean to post ... had not finished finding them ...will add more later ...dinner time :)
deb
1871...transcribed as KAIER ;D ;D
St Giles Cripplegate
15 Haberdasher Sq?
George Traies head mar 57 feltmaker b Devonshire
Martha wife 55 laundress b Ditto
Elizabeth A dau 23/8? Fancy box making b Cripplegate
William son 14 errand boy b ditto
RG10/419 31 55
Can't see George, their son in 1871
1881...transcribed as TRAVIS
15 Haberdasher sq
Martha Traies head wid 63 annuitant b Crediton
William son 24 unm dealer in oilcloth/manuf. b St Lukes
1891.....transcribed as TRAICE
St Luke, Finsbury
146 Old street
Hall of Science ..... yep that's what it says !
Martha Traice head wid 74 b Cridington (sic) Devon ..transcibed as Tredington
RG12/234 69 5
also in 1891 ..transcribed as GRAIES
St Lukes
?? D Block
William Traies head mar 34 Hackney Carriage driver b St Lukes
Emma wife 34 b London ??
Maud dau 4 b Hackney
William ? son 2 b St Lukes
Alfred C son 15 months b St Lukes = Nellie A Hyde Sept q 1922, Islington
(the page is rather difficult to read!)
RG12/234 88 43
:D :D :D
Yes ...this is most probably the most mistranscribed name in the world !!!!
deb
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The Henry William TRAIS will you mention is interesting. His wife's daughter married Charles Grimes the finder of the Yarra river in Australia - there is a bridge in Melbourne named after him. I can't find out where Henry William TRAIS and his father fit in if anywhere but the surname looks suspiciously like one of the West Country TR**S lot.
I have transcribed his and his father's will - you will find them on this link:-
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txr/trais_wills.htm
Bob ...you mentioned that you could not find Mary Atkinson (mother of Cassandra Grimes nee Atkinson), her marriages
on Pallot's we find:
Mary Atkinson = Henry Trais
1809 Holborn St Andrew
Henry married her the year before his dad died.
deb
added ...found this on pallots ...no idea if it relates
John Atkinson = Mary Holdsworth
1804 Addingham
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Hi again
Bob ...I see Charles Grimes in 1851 living in Gravesend ..he has an unmarried daughter with him ...Cassandria Underwood, b JERSEY
In 1853 CAssandra Underwood = John Joynes
Cassandra Underwood
Sept q 1853
Gravesend , Kent
2a 355
I am trying to figure out what Mary Atkinson/Traies maiden name was. I feel that Henry William Trais' aunt, Rachel HOLDSWORTH, holds a clue as to his ancestry...Holdsworth seems to be mainly a Yorkshire name ...
going round in circles here ...but having fun
deb :D
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Hi all
Re. William TRAIES of Powell Street, buried Bunhill Fields Burial Ground.
Kerry wanted to know which family he belonged to and Bob asked where is Powell Street. I don't know which family he belonged to, but I have now been able to locate Powell Street.
Try going to www.archivemaps.com. Near the top of the page you will see London Maps printed. Click on this and up comes a variety of interesting maps of London. Click on the one called 'Mogg's Strangers Guide to London 1834'. There is a street index which tells you which section you need to click to locate the street you require. Powell Street is listed as Section E1. Look for a small green square called Kings Square and just below it is Powell Street. Powell Street leads into City Road.
Bunhill Row is on Section E2 of the map. Bunhill Fields Burial Ground is on land that stretched from Bunhill Row to City Road, so was very close to where little William TRAIES had lived. I think Powell Street would have come under the parish of St. Luke's, Old Street.
Bunhill Fields has a very interesting history and was originally called Tindals Burying ground - some early maps still use this name. I first became interested in Bunhill Fields when I discovered three of my own ancestors had been buried there in the early 1800's.
On the same site that I used to find Powell Street in 1834, other maps and plans are available. One that may be of interest to Kerry, is St. Marylebone church in 1829. Just click on it and it a good picture of the church and surrounding area at that time comes up - sadly it doesn't help us to find those missing baptisms though! However, we do know that this was where 'your' Samuel and 'my husband's' Ann TRAIES were christened.
Hi guys ...
Just noticed this reference to Old Street, St Luke
this is what I had found this morning ...not sure if it relates but thpought I would mention it ;
1891.....transcribed as TRAICE
St Luke, Finsbury
146 Old street
Hall of Science ..... yep that's what it says !
Martha Traice head wid 74 b Cridington (sic) Devon ..transcibed as Tredington
RG12/234 69 5
the above is Martha nee Holigrove = George Traies
deb
added ...I also noticed on the map that E2 Old street crosses Golden Lane
quote from Bob:
'The 1851 census entry for George Traies references Golden Lane which rings a bell – the previous references are in fact burial records :-
Susan TREAYS buried at Golden Lane 12Srep1852 age 71 Address Caroline Place Goswell Street
Ann TRAIS buried 20th June 1852 Golden Lane age 84 so born about 1768 AAD 10 Cherry Tree Court White Cross Lane"
Now George Traies/Trees b c 1814 (s/o John Traies and Ann Popham)lives in Golden Lane in 1851..he is unm
he marries Martha Holigrove and they have kids
1861 living at Lambeth Passage
1871 & 1881 Haberdasher Sq
1881 Martha back to Old Street
i wonder if the Young William who died in Powell street is connected to the above George. Could he be George's brother? that doesn't make sense ...sorry! Also George and his family were still in Devon in 1841. Back to the drawing board .
deb
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re:
Hannah TRAIES
1791 c. 24Aug1791 Crediton, Devon. daur John and Hannah TRAIES
m1. 24Dec1811 Crediton, Devon. Hannah TRAIES and Edmund DRAKE
m2. 12Apr1818 Crediton, Devon. Hannah DRAKE and William LEGG
?1851 census Hannah Legg, Widow on Poor Relief, age 64, in Crediton during 1851
1841
Crediton
Paradise :)
Hannah LEGGE 50 weaver serge? Y
William Legge 14 app Y
so did Hannah Traies/Drake/Legge have a son?
1851
crediton
High st
hannah Legg head wid parish relief b Crediton
William son mar24 cordwainder(sic) b Crediton
Susan d-i-l 24 dressmaker b Silverton
Eliza gr dau 1 b Silverton
there is a William Legg = Susan Vickery 1849 Exeter ...I think Silverton comes under exeter reg district.
IGI ext
William Legg s/o William Legg and Hannah
29 OCT 1826 Crediton,
deb
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Hi Deb
You certainly seem to be back on the 'trail of the TRAIES' again!
Just a bit of background information for you, although nothing to do with TRAIES. You found Martha TRAIES at 146, Old Street, 'Hall of Science' in 1891 and seemed a bit surprised at this address.
Yes, the 'Hall of Science' was quite well known at that time. I remember coming across it sometime ago in connection with a play about Annie BESSANT and the Matchgirls Strike of Bryant and May of 1888 in the East End. (You may have already heard about this). This was really at the start of the 'Women's Rights Movement' and Annie BESSANT was their strong supporter. This Hall was where Annie Bessant spoke to rally support for the girls on strike. At least one of the scenes in the play took place in the 'Hall of Science'. Eventually the Match Girls won their case.
Presumably, the Hall was on the bottom floor of the building with apartments above and this is where Martha TRAIES must have lived.
To All -
I don't expect to post any more messages on this site until the New Year. - like many I am rather behind with Christmas preparations and have lots of letters still to write! Also, the choir I belong to have a lot of engagements in the run-up to Christmas and the family (including Daniel age 5 and Maria age 3) will be here for about a week at Christmas so it is a busy time. I will check the site occasionally though and I wish you all a very Happy Christmas and a Healthy and Peaceful New Year.
Best Wishes
Bernice
Bernice
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Bernice,
I remember reading about the Bryant and May stirike. Something about "Fossie" jaw and poisoning by phosphorus. This sort of background information is absolutely fascinating.
Have a good Xmas/New Year break,
Bob
Deb,
I have been out of action for a few days. I am going to try and catch up with you over the next day or so. I must be half a dozen emails behind. It is interesting you are finding TRAICE and TRAVIS as common census mistranscriptions in the London area. This may also happen on IGI and other sources. I am going to have another look at TRAIS and see if there are any other Devon/Cornwall possibilities.
Bob
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All Trease/Traies researchers have a great Christmas from me too :)
Bernice enjoy the family festivities.
Kerry :)
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Bob
Have been updating my Traies family and don't know if you want to add the following to your page on Traies family re Emma daughter of Samuel and Elizabeth Michel.
1841 census - H0107 705 3 13, age 5 with Samuel and Elizabeth
1851 census - H0107 15 6 Ray Street, age 14 with Samuel and Elizabeth
1871 census - RG10 444 64 age 35, Bristow Street
1881 census - RG11 388 age 44, Bristow Street
1891 census - RG12 246 58 age 58, Murray Street
Her ages seem a bit all over the place and I never managed to find 1861 census for her and James.
She died 30 Jun 1900 at Shoreditch Infirmary of Osteo Arthritis Aethemia cert obtained Dec 2007
Any other information you would like let me know.
Kerry
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Her children were as follows
Jane elizabeth Turner, born 1860 in Shoreditch and baptised 22 Aug 1869 in Hoxton (IGI) I have birth certificate
Emily Eliza Turner, born 1862 in Shoreditch and baptised with Jane on 22 Aug 1869 at Hoxton.
Again I have birth certificate
Anne Turner born 1865
Laura Turner born 1867
both according to census returns
Eleanor Kate Turner born 1876
George James Turner born 1876, twins born in Shoreditch, I have birth certificates
Henry Turner born 1878 according to census return
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
have been looking for them in 1861
There is a James Edw. Turner 23 with and Emma Turner aged 23 but I am sure you have seen them ...with a visitor Louisa .... no sign of first born so ...not them.
will look some more
deb
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Hi Deb
I think I have disregarded that one because of her place of birth, there is a possibility of Emma and Jane as visitors somewhere that I found once, but have never been able to find James at all.
Kerry
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Kerry,
Have added the children to the website. Have you the DOB of the twins Eleanor & George to hand?
Deb,
Have now updated other tree with the census info you found.
Bob
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Hi bob
Yes, sorry should have checked the birth certificates.
21 December 1875, at 4a Bristow Street, Shoreditch and dad was foreman in a Sawmill.
Kerry
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Kerry,
Have updated site again. While doing it I suddenly realised that the Elizabeth Traies mentioned in my post below was almost certainly the wife of James's son Samuel b 1810.
My post of 24th November
2. Elizabeth TRAIES (allegedly signed that way) who witnesses two marriages at the church of St Matthew Bethnal Green on 27Jul1834 – John LAKE & Jane Welch TUCKER and Mary Ann TUCKER & Robert Francis SCAIF. John LAKE and his wife subsequently named a daughter born in Southwark Mar Q 1847 Elizabeth Trayes LAKE. It could just be a coincidence but James’s uncle Joseph TRAIES was like his brother William (whom we now know had links to this part of London) a soldier and his wife’s maiden name was Mary LAKE and his family seem to disappear leaving no trace.
Bob
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Thanks Bob
Its these little snippets of information that make it really interesting.
Kerry
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Kerry,
When I next get to LMA I'll compare the Elizabeth Roberts signature on the 1830 marriage register with the Elizabeth Traies on the 1834 marriage register.
Bob
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Hi guys
Doing a bit of Sunday afternoon surfing and came across a will dated 1840 for a Miss Ann Roffe of tunbridge Wells daughter of John and Jane Roffe on http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~engsurry/ken.htm
Bit far removed from the Traies but I don't know whether those with connections to Roffes know if she fits in and whether they have this will.
Kerry
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Hello Kerry
Thanks for that. I had looked at the Surrey Wills site but had overlooked the will of Miss Ann ROFFE which you have now come across.
As you say, not of importance to the TRAIES side but quite useful to Sigplat and myself who are also connected to the ROFFE family. (Brothers George and William Henry ROFFE had married two of the daughters of James TRAIES).
George and William Henry were two of three known children of John and Jane ROFFE of Tunbridge Wells. Sigplat was able to tell me that a John ROFFE and Jane SIMMONS had married in 1802 and John had been a widower on marriage. The eldest of their three known children was born in 1813 and we thought they could well have had other children as a nine year gap between marriage and first child was unusual.
An earlier marriage of a John ROFFE had taken place in 1785 and produced four known children including a Hannah. After reading the will that you found it now looks as if this first marriage also produced an (up to now unknown) Ann ROFFE who was the person who died in 1840 and whose will you discovered.
The will mentions her sister Hannah as well as her father John ROFFE and her mother in law, Jane. The term Mother in law in those times was usually applied to someone that we would today call a step mother. (By law once her father had remarried his new wife had become Ann's mother). This would seem to prove that the two marriages found were indeed for the same John ROFFE, making Ann ROFFE (the testator) the step sister of the ROFFE brothers who married into the TRAIES family.
Many thanks for posting that.
Bernice
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Glad it was helpful to you. Its amazing what you can find on a boring afternoon sometimes.
Kerry
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Hi all
This is a reference I found when just browsing sometime before Christmas.
I don't know who it refers to but someone may know!
William TRAIES 16 January 1908 age 50. Burial 113386, Section L07 Index No 5S08.
(Abney Park Cemetary Trust, Hackney)
According to the free BMD site it would seem to refer to a death registered in March 1908 at Holborn Registration district and to a birth registered in March 1857 at St. Luke, Chelsea RD.
Any use to anyone?
Bernice
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Hi Bernice,
The William Traies in your post is the William Traies listed at the end of Deb's post no 238. He married Emma Bradshaw in 1884. He was as you can see from that post a Hackney carriage driver - seemingly appropriate for a person from Hackney! He is somewhat distantly related to James Traies according to the trees so far constructed.
Strangely his birth and baptism details are on IGI despite being as late as 1857.
Thanks for the information.
Bob
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An early case of a preventable industrial disease Gardener Bob, caused I believe by the girls having to suck the match head to get the phosphorus to stick to make the match. Does anyone know whether there is a list of the girls who took part in the strike? I believe I have distant relatives involved.
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Hello m'dears,
Hope you won't mind me butting in here!!
I have the name Traies in my husband's chart and would love to take this line back some more.
John MARTIN married Mary TRAIES, 3 Jan 1797 at Exeter St. David's. John was a farmer and the couple lived in Poughill, Devon. Mary is alone on the 1841 census, born abt. 1774. John was born Sandford, in 1770.
Would love to find her parents. I have found the wonderful Traies website via Google and that led me here.
Best wishes, Chris.
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Welcome to Rootschat and to the Traies/Trease family Chris. ;) :)
I've not looked much at the Devon Traies as yet, still trying to sort out my London lot but I am sure Gardener Bob will be able to help.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
Many thanks for your kind welcome and the inroduction to Gardener Bob.
Best wishes, Chris
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Hi Chris
Have you found Mary on the 1851 census or just the 1841?
Kerry
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Hi All
Welcome Chris :D
according to Pallots marriage index;
Mary Trays = Jno Martin
Spouse Comments: soldier
1797, Exeter St David
it won't let me see the original for some reason :-\
It may have other info .... Kerry can you see it?
deb :)
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I wonder if this is Chris' John Martin's will?
from NA:
Information relating to document ref. no. 1078/IRW/M/257
John Martin of Poughill, Devon.
[DRO, Estate Duty Office Wills]
Date: 1823.
deb
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Hi Deb
I bet that is his will.
I managed to see the original of the Paloots marriage cert and curiously there is a squiggle next to Mary Trays that looks like a w. ?? Was she a widow?
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
Nice to see you again :)
I was hoping the image would reveal more ...I see John and Mary's children on IGI ...I wonder if there are clues with them and their families?
deb
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It looks like from the 1841 census that Mary (if indeed she is a Trays and that is not a married name) is one of the Crediton Trays.
Kerry
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The nearest Mary Traies I can find is born circa 1764 Crediton d/o William and Mary ...next one is born 1787 ...none in 1774! :-\
deb
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That's what I found as well, which is why I wonder if maybe she was a widow :-\
Kerry
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Welcome Chris, and Hello again to Deb and Kerry.
I just thought I would mention that I've just had a look for a Mary Martin on the 1851 census index but could not see her. I then looked at the deaths on the free BMD site for a Mary Martin from 1841 to 1851. I found a death registered in Dec 1846 for a Mary Martin in the Exeter Registration District which would have included deaths at Exeter St. David, so this is probably her.
It's nice to see a bit of activity on this site again. I haven't really given the TRAIES site a thought this year. My son had to have an emergency ileostomy (removal of the complete large bowel in February and my daughter-in-law is also not well due to a rare disorder in the functioning of the white cells in the blood. Geoff and I spent five weeks down in Sussex looking after the grandchildren and Geoff returned again for another two weeks at Easter mainly to do some much needed work in their garden. My son is now coming on well, regaining lost weight and is pleased to be able to drive again. It is likely to be another two months or so before he can get back to work.
Bye for now and best wishes
Bernice
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Hi Bernice ;)
there were a few people living with Mary in 1841;
Agnes Lavercom
John Stone
James Stevens ...
I have checked to see if Mary was any of those surnames amrrying a Trais ...no Luck! :-\
Also, another thing on the 1841 original next to Mary and whether born in county ...there is a stripe in the area for whether born Scotland?ireland etc.... I have notice that those without the stripe are christened in Poughill ::)
deb
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Hi again
Got the marriage image from Pallots ...I would definitely say that Mary Trayes is a widow!!!!!
now what :-\ :-\
deb
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Hi Deb and Bernice
Hope your son gets well soon Bernice.
My guess is that Mary married a Trays in Crediton and if she was born 1774 ish she must have married around 1794ish so we need to check out marriages around that time to a Mary and then somehow see if the husband dies before 1797 when she married John Martin.
Of course it may not be the Crediton area at all....
Kerry
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Had a nother thought in the middle of the night.
As the Pallots marriage index says John was a soldier it would be worth looking to see if there is anything on him on the National Archives site. Knowing what I got about James Traies and other soldiers since in my tree, there are potentially some brilliant records to be had.
Kerry
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Hey, what can I say, this is just so intersting, thank you all so much. I will sit down with this later today and see where it takes me.
No I believe Mary died before the 1851. The Pallots entry is wonderful.
Thanks so much, will come back when I have studied this up.
Wonderful!!!
Best wishes Chris.
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I hope you find it helpful Chris, there seems to be more questions than answers.
If there is anything else we can have a go at searching for let us know :)
Kerry
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Hi guys
I have searched the NA for anything on John Martin, Devon...it's a hard name to search as both are first names ...cannot see anything as of yet!
what about ordering the WILL of John Martin, Poughill ...it may state some rellies on Mary Trays/Traies nee ?? side of the family.
deb :)
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Had a nother thought in the middle of the night.
Kerry
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I have them often and sometimes dream about dead peeps ....some times not even my own .... am I sad or what?? ;D 8)
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No sadder than me Deb ::) ;D
Kerry
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Hello m'dears,
Back again after being memerised by all the John Martins and Marys !!!
The 1821 will is that of John Martin's father, very simple just naming his sons, no wives mentioned.
Deb suggested this couple,
The nearest Mary Traies I can find is born circa 1764 Crediton d/o William and Mary ...next one is born 1787 ...none in 1774,
but she married William Jackman and mention in the will of her father,William Traies 1812.
I found the orignal entry for the marriage 3 Jan 1797, and though very hard to read it looks like widow and soldier.
I have found this marriage:
Joseph Traies marr. Mary Lake 25 Dec 1786 in Exeter St. Sidwell.
There are 3 possibles for Mary:
dau. of John and Mary Lake chr. 21 Nov 1767, Shobrook
dau. of John and Joan Lake chr. 16 Mar 1763, Throwleigh
dau. of John and Eliz. Lake chr. 8 Dec 1763 Bow, Mint Meeting Exeter
This does not quite tie in with her age [b. abt 1774] on the 1841 census, but that can be very variable I understand.
I think perhaps ? Joseph Traies was the son of Samuel Trease and Elizabeth chr. 28 Apr 1761 St Peter, Exeter Cathedral.
Sadly no burials of the above yet, more work to do. Poughill burials still with church, and currently working through the Exeter parishes in Exeter Studies Library .
Sadly this new research takes the Traies family out of my son's direct lines.
But I want to thank you all most sincerely for all your time and interest and pointing me in the right direction.
If I can help with anything from Exeter RO and the libaray please just shout.
Best wishes, Chris.
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Hi Chris
I found a marriage of
WILLIAM TRAIES = MARY HOOPER
19 NOV 1786 Crediton, Devon
which doesn't give us much time for William to die and Mary to remarry John Martin by 3 jan 1787.
There are, however, a few Mary Hoopers born circa 1774/5 in the Tiverton, Shobrooke areas which falls under Exeter. There is this mary Hooper chr 27 JUN 1773, Crediton d/o of John and Sarah.
Can't find a death for William Traies :-\
Sadly this new research takes the Traies family out of my son's direct lines.
.
:'( :'( :'( :-\
deb
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Hi Deb,
I reckon this couple were still having children up to about 1805 according to the IGI.
Crediton
Mary 24 Jun 1787
William 16 Nov 1789
Sarah 12 ct 1794
Susan 8 Jul 1798
Samuel 22 Nov 1801
Sarah 21 Jul 1805
Again many thanks, it does your heart good to meet so many helpful souls in this cut throat world.
Best wishes, Chris
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Will the people who have posted the Trease/Couch/Wiville families please contact me. I am the great-great granddaughter of Henry Couch, the Couch Historian (HCCH) you refer to. Lillian Couch, his daughter, was my great grandmother (my mother's grandmother). We can help each other. What you have posted re the Couch's and Wivilles' has been of great assistance to me. I can help you, as I see their are some corrections (i.e., the birth date of Lillian). I know a great deal about Henry's two children (Henry Mercer and Lillian) and the Nicholases, but have not been able to trace HCCH beyond himself, partly because Lillian listed Ann Wiville's husband as John Couch rather than Henry Couch. I have been searching the wrong names for 23 years. Cannot begin to tell you how excited I was to at last find that family tree.
Of particular interest for the moment is the person who says Henry Mercer Couch married into the Bacon family.
I have tons of questions regarding places in England as well as the two families. I am someone who tries to go beyond birth, marriage and death dates in an effort to bring personality to these people in order to sustain the interest of future generations who quickly become bored with names, dates and no photos.
I have photos of HCCH, Henry Mercer and Lillian that I can share.
Clearly, we can be of much help to one another. I eagerly look forward to your responses.
Thank you so, so much.
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Hi Kerry
Kerry thank you so much for all the information on the Traies family via Genes Reunited. I have finally sat down and started to get my head around the Rootschat website. What a wealth of information on the Traies family! So much to plough through!
My interest is through Jane Traies 1823 - 1913 and William Henry Roffe1822 - 1906 who were my gg grandparents.
As regards your postings of 19 March 2008 I think the place you were discussing with Deb is Uffculme, which is not much more than three miles away from where I live. The postal address is Cullompton. The Culme is the local river. When I get time I will visit Uffculme to see if I can discover anything more.
We moved to this part of the country some twenty years ago when I had no interest in tracing my family tree. At that time as far as I was concerned my antecedents all came from Kent and South London. How weird it is that unknowingly I moved back to my roots - so close to Exeter and Crediton (and Uffculme!).
I am now intrigued to discover whether or not William Traies the landscape painter was part of my family. Pictures on the web selling at £4000! Exeter Museum has some of his pictures but it is closed at the moment for refurbishment.
Joy
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Hello Joy and welcome to Rootschat.
The Traies research has been very quiet of late and certainly I have been concentrating on my local Sussex roots lately. Its always easier when you are local.
Next time I am in Devon I shall have to remember to visit Exeter Museum. Devon used to be a favourite holiday spot but haven't been there for some years.
Kerry
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Hi Chris,
Just getting up to speed with the posts on Mary Trays (widow?) who married John Martin (soldier?) on 3Jan1797 at St Davids, Exeter. Joseph Traies who married Mary Lake in 1786 was a soldier - we know this because he is described as such in his Uncle's will. There is also the birth of a Mary Ann Martin Lake in 1812 to another member of the Lake Family in the Exeter area.
I am trying to get my head around the facts. As far as I can see Mary and John Martin had 4 children - Mary 1799, John 1801, Ann 1803, and Charlotte 1806. The Mary Ann Martin born 25 June 1823 and who died 10 September 1823 was almost certainly the child of John Martin who married Mary Phillips on 2Apr1823.
The John Martin who married in 1823 was presumably the son of John and Mary Trays so John and Mary Trays had children for 7 years only.
The 1841 census implied age appears to rule out Mary Trays being the widow of Joseph.
There are Martin connections with other Trays families which are not on the website. Mary Trayes has to fit in somewhere.
All for now - just some first thoughts.
Bob
Hello m'dears,
Back again after being memerised by all the John Martins and Marys !!!
The 1821 will is that of John Martin's father, very simple just naming his sons, no wives mentioned.
Deb suggested this couple,
The nearest Mary Traies I can find is born circa 1764 Crediton d/o William and Mary ...next one is born 1787 ...none in 1774,
but she married William Jackman and mention in the will of her father,William Traies 1812.
I found the orignal entry for the marriage 3 Jan 1797, and though very hard to read it looks like widow and soldier.
I have found this marriage:
Joseph Traies marr. Mary Lake 25 Dec 1786 in Exeter St. Sidwell.
There are 3 possibles for Mary:
dau. of John and Mary Lake chr. 21 Nov 1767, Shobrook
dau. of John and Joan Lake chr. 16 Mar 1763, Throwleigh
dau. of John and Eliz. Lake chr. 8 Dec 1763 Bow, Mint Meeting Exeter
This does not quite tie in with her age [b. abt 1774] on the 1841 census, but that can be very variable I understand.
I think perhaps ? Joseph Traies was the son of Samuel Trease and Elizabeth chr. 28 Apr 1761 St Peter, Exeter Cathedral.
Sadly no burials of the above yet, more work to do. Poughill burials still with church, and currently working through the Exeter parishes in Exeter Studies Library .
Sadly this new research takes the Traies family out of my son's direct lines.
But I want to thank you all most sincerely for all your time and interest and pointing me in the right direction.
If I can help with anything from Exeter RO and the libaray please just shout.
Best wishes, Chris.
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Tried to find another possible Mary Trays without success. Tend to agree with the view that she was probably the widow of Joseph Traies. Have updated the website with the additional information:-
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17s_ec.htm#18j_ml
Would be interested to know the true parents of Mary Lake, if they ever are discovered or anything else about her.
Bob
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Hi guys
I haven't touched the Traies for months but with the launch of the LMA records on Ancestry I am having a relook.
Haven't found any answers to the burning questions yet like who was Hannah and where are the baptisms of James, Henry and their sisters
but I have found a curious one. You know the marriage of James Traies and Ann Sutton in 1818 well the banns say John Traies.
Do we know of a John Traies that would fit and would this mean our James did not marry Ann Sutton, after all its the wrong area.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
One of the first things I looked for was the marriages of James Traies ;D...I also noticed Ann Sutton to a James and a John Traies. Couldn't find a Hannah ::) :-\
will look again....How great to have the records!!!!
deb :)
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I managed to find various baptisms and marriages for some of James's grandchildren.
It is great! ;D
Kerry
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Hi Kerry and others
Like you I have not tried to do any further work on the TRAIES family and had seemed to have come to a halt.
However, I had completely forgotten that some of the LMA archives were now on-line, so many thanks for that, Kerry.
I know you will be glad to know, that through looking through these records, I think I have now found the death of Hannah TRAIES and am convinced that it was 'our' James TRAIES that who married Ann HUTTON. As it is ages since there was much activity on this site, perhaps it is just as well to briefly re-cap.
Baptisms of some of the early children of James TRAIES and Hannah were in Marylebone. However, their son James, born in 1816,gave Stratford le Bow as place of birth on his documents when enlisting as a soldier and Mile End on a census return. We discovered that a James TRAIES had married Ann SUTTON at St. John's, Hackney in 1818. We had no proof that this was the same James TRAIES. Stratford le Bow was very close to Mile End Road and Mile End Road seemed to have been the boundary between the parishes of Hackney and Stepney.
After searches the indexes now available from the LMA I discovered that a Hannah TRAISE had been buried at St. Dunstan's, Stepney on 8th March 1818. She was 39 years old. The abode is give as MEOT which I believe means Mile End Old Town.
What is surprises me is the speed in which he married his many wives! Hannah died 8th March 1818. He married Ann SUTTON 18th October 1818. I do not know when Ann SUTTON died but 8th March 1831 he marrried Martha LOOKER, both these marriages having taken place in ST. John's Hackney. Martha died 2 September 1842 in Greyhound Row, Kensington. He married Jane BERRY 13 November 1842. Jane died in the June quarter 1856. He then married Mary JONES 7 JUne 1857. She died in the Dec quarter 1861 and as far as I know was his last wife. Maybe no-one else was prepared to take him on - to lose six wives must have looked rather suspicious!
It was good to find Hannah and I will carry on looking for anyone else.
Best wishes
Bernice
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Apologies for the many grammatical errors in previous e-mail and saying Ann HUTTON in one place and not Ann SUTTON! I hope you can understand what I was trying to explain.
Bernice
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Hi Bernice
I did a search for Hannah Traies yesterday and didn't come up with anything, I will try again at St Dunstans. Thank you.
Now all we need is the baptisms of James later children to see who their mother was.
Kerry
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Hi,
I remember posting links to the James Traies signatures on the Sutton and Looker marriage entries. They looked the same but James was described as bachelor on the Sutton entry. When Kerry said he was named John on the banns for the Sutton marriage I feared some subterfuge was going on - am relieved that Hannah's burial has been found.
It seems that Hannah was about 5 years older than James so would have been about 30 at time of baptism of first child found so far.This is older than I expected and I suppose it opens up possibility she may have been a widow.
Have added burial details to website - it is all we have on Hannah. Have done no more on TRAIES research recently - busy documenting TREISE and TRAISE families - more soldiers, at least one musician a bandleader, plus links with artists.
Regards,
Bob
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Hi everyone
Did James marry a LUCY ..I ask as there is a baptism of LUCY ANN:
Lucy Ann Traies
born Jan 17th 1852
Baptism 29 Feb 1852 , St Luke Chelsea
Father = James Traies, = TIN PLATE WORKER
Mother = Lucy Traies
address = Bond street
There were banns read for James Trais and Lucy Brown both of Harrow Street
1848... Saint Mary, Paddington Green
30 Jan
6 and 13 Feb
the marriage is there , Feb 28th, 1848 but this James' dad was James, whitesmith...so this looks like James' son James LOL
Lucy Brown was a widow ..her father as James ROPES/Roper (soldier)
witnesses to James and Lucy' marriage were: William henry ROFFE and Jane ROFFE
I think we have this info ;D but did we know Lucy Brown was nee ROPE??
deb
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Hi again
James Traies lived in Queen Street
I have found an unusual amount of Traies people's burials/deaths in Queen st circa 1823 ..seems that there may have been small pox going around. I am not sure if they belong to our Traies family but thought I would post.
All QUEENS STREET, St Luke, Chelsea
Thomas Traies bc 1821 24 Oct 1823 age 2
Jane Traies bc 1819 17 Oct 1823 age 4 sm pox ..possibly child of William and Hannah Traies
Thomas Traies bc 1799 24 Oct 1823 age 24 sm pox ...
William Traies bc 1758 14 Feb 1840
here's one that def. looks like Trais on original
Mary Ann Frais bc 1819 20 Oct 1839 Saint John The Baptist, Hoxton Hackney
Chatham Gardens
deb
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ooo look :D
re; Lucy Brown nee Rope??
she was bc 1817 brighton Sussex
IGI extracted
LUCY ROPER d/o Joseph and Lucy
2 FEB 1817 St Nicholas, Brighton, Sussex
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Dear Deb,
The William Traies who died in 1840 is certainly James's Uncle William who was a soldier and who was christened in 1758 - amazing he was retired from the army on ill health grounds around 1800 but lived another 40 years. His burial is a really useful find. Interesting he was around in the area and may have advised the James's son who married Lucy Brown. I did not know Lucy's father was also a soldier with surname Ropes/Roper.
The recent posts about the Martin marriage have given more information about the other uncle who was a soldier.
I am not sure about the other burials - I'll look into them.
Bob
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Hi again
...Bob's site has;
sp. Lucy BROWN (widow)
1851 Census Lucy Traies, a. 34, Brighton, Sussex, England, Wife, Chelsea, Middlesex, laundress with two sons Charles, a. 9, born Northants and George, a. 6, born Wiltshire.
I wonder if this is the marriage;
Lucy ROPER = William BROWN
Mar q 1838
Radford : Nottinghamshire
15 691
umm will keep looking
deb
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Hi Bob
Didn't see you there ;D
Wiliam and Hannah Trais had a son James baptised in Queen Street July 30th, 1824 ..William the dad was a pensioner.
going round in circles as usual ::)
deb
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Hi Deb,
I currently have this family as shown below. It has never been posted on the website because the whole tree of which this is just a part is too speculative. It seems that the William attributed to the marriage cannot be the William shown as he could never have been a pensioner when only 21 years old. I am finding it hard to believe that William Traies the soldier who definitely was a pensioner and would have been about 61 if he married in 1819, married a young lady of child bearing age and brought up a family so late in life ... but he wanted to be looked after and had a pension and she wanted security so there is definitely synergy there.
FAMILY of WILLIAM TRAIES and HANNAH KNIGHT
William TRAIES
1798 c. 3May1798 Crediton, Devon. son John and Hannah TRAIES (IGI C050743)
1819 m. St Lukes, Chelsea William TRAIES and Hannah KNIGHT (Pallots Index)
1840 d. ?.?.1840?.
Hannah KNIGHT
Nothing more known.
NOTE: The Hannah TRAIES who married Robert HUNT in 1853 is unlikley to be this Hannah as that Hannah appears to have produced two children.
Jane TRAIES
1819 c. 26Sep1819 St Luke, Chelsea, London. Jane daur William and Hannah TRAIES (IGI C067053)
Thomas William TRAIES
1823 c. 13Apr1823 St Luke, Chelsea, London Thomas William son William and Hannah TRAIES (IGI C067053)
James TRAIES
1824 b. 30Jul1824 )
1826 c. 30Jul1826 ) St Luke, Chelsea, London. James son William and Hannah TRAIES (IGI C067053)
1869 d. ?Chelsea, London James Traies age 46 (Chelsea RD Oct-Nov-Dec 1869 1a 64)
Henry TRAIES
1828 c. 12Oct1828. St. James, Paddington, London. Henry son of William, labourer, and Hannah TRAIES (P71 register mf LMA)
?1855 d. Strand, London. Henry Traies (Strand RD Apr-May-Jun 1855 1b 278)
The Jane baptism accounts for one of the burials, the Thomas burial could easily be another son Thomas who died young.
The Thomas died 1823 aged 24 is strange - could it be from another unrecorded marriage of William? - he had been invalided out of the army shortly before the birth of this Thomas.
I am now going to look into the 1839 Mary Ann Frais burial at Hoxton.
This is fascinating,
Bob
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Hi Bob
Having seen all those baptisms for children of William and Hannah over the last couple of days thanking for explaining who they were
I have copy of marriage certficiate of Hannah Traies and Robert Hunt and it says daughter of James Traies Tin Plate Worker so I presume this Hannah born 1825 (sorry not sure without looking) one of the siblings we have yet to find baptisms for.
Kerry
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Hi Bob
When William Traies marries Hannah Knight in 1819 he is a WIDOWER. (married by Banns)
St Lukes
William TRAIES = Hannah Knight.... they both sign :)
William = widower
witnesses; Thos Bryan and John New??
There is a William who married on 20 Sep 1802 to Jane Anderson in Saint Dunstan And All Saints .
Both of these Williams sign their name as Wm Traies and not William Traies
The thing is, who was William married to prior to Hannah Knight as he does state that he is widowed. I wonder if he married in Devon first as I cannot see another marriage in London. Could he have been married twice before reaching the age of 21? Most probably but with whom and where?
deb
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Guess who was a witness at George Roffe's marriage to Ann Traies on 11 august 1842:
William Henry Roffe and JANE BERRY!!!! ;D
at this stage James Traies is still married to Martha Looker who dies in Sept 1842 and then Marries Jane Berry in Nov 1842 ...did he meet her at his daughter's marriage or had he known her for a while? Why would Jane be at the marriage? ::) 8)
deb
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Hi all (especially Deb and Bob)
My head's spinning as well Deb!
As you all know I recently found that the burial of Hannah TRAIES had taken place in St. Dunstan's, Stepney in 1818. I was also intrigued to see that a marriage had taken place in the same parish in 1809 for a William TRAIES and Jane ANDERSON and decided to look at the image.
I think this could well be the William TRAIES that according to Bob is the uncle to 'our' James TRAIES. (just mentioned in a message from Bob!) When I looked at the image of the marriage in 1802, I saw that William was a widower said to be of this parish and of the parish of MEOT (Mile End Old Town) and Jane was said to be of the same parish and a widower. The marriage had taken place 20 Sept 1802.
I then looked at the image of the marriage of William TRAIES and Hannah KNIGHT which I also thought may be of interest due to the Chelsea/Kensington connection. (I'd seen the entry in the past but not the actual image). When this marriage took place in 1819, Hannah was a spinster, but William was a widower.
Both 'our' James and this 'William' were in the same parishes in the East End at roughly the same time and moved West at roughly the same time (if indeed the two William's are the same person).
I think that William also had several wives (like James) and this is what is causing Bob problems connecting William the soldier (and a pensioner) and the young spinster Hannah KNIGHT.
I think William married someone unknown before marrying Jane ANDERSON (hence being a widower in 1802). Unfortunately, I cannot find a burial for Jane and if my theory is correct she must have died by 1819 when he married Hannah KNIGHT (when he is again a widower).
Like Deb, I discovered children to William and Hannah in St. Luke's, Chelsea, but did not make a note of all of them. I did note the christening in 1819 of a child, Jane, and wondered if this was why Hannah had decided to marry someone so much older than herself. As Deb suggested this child (Jane) died age 4 of small pox. The address was given as Queen Street on both the baptism and burial entries. I did note a baptism of James to William and Hannah (of Queen Street) but the date I have differs from that given by Deb. I have 13 July 1830. I will check this - maybe the James that Deb noted had died as a child or maybe one of us have the wrong date. We both agree that the entry we saw said pensioner.
I agree with Deb that William TRAIES died at Queen Street in 1840 (14 February) and that he was 82 years at the time of his death.
Well Bob, what do you think of my theory? I suppose it is just a theory at the moment and not concrete fact.
I'll leave it there for now.
Bernice
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You must have sent your latest message while I was writing mine Deb. - we seem to be on the same wavelength!
We are finding the same things!
Bernice
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Hi Traies researchers ...LOL
Hi Bernice, kerry and Bob
I wrote a long email and then discovered I was talking about the wrong William Traies ... crapola LOL
deb
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it's late here ...but I have been searching under the surname Tray*s ... you might find someone there in births/baptisms, marriages/banss and Deaths/Burials.
Also try Fra*s ..LOL
deb :)
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Guess who was a witness at George Roffe's marriage to Ann Traies on 11 august 1842:
William Henry Roffe and JANE BERRY!!!! ;D
at this stage James Traies is still married to Martha Looker who dies in Sept 1842 and then Marries Jane Berry in Nov 1842 ...did he meet her at his daughter's marriage or had he known her for a while? Why would Jane be at the marriage? ::) 8)
deb
Hi Deb
Yes I noticed that and have been imagining all sorts of stories! ::) ;D
Kerry
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Hello all,
I think Deb and Bernice are right that William Traies the soldier and uncle of James married three times.
I have updated his details on the website and it all seems to fit:-
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17s_ec.htm#18w_xx
Firstly he has signed himself as Wm Traies on his army discharge documents as Deb says he does on the parish register marriage entries. Secondly two of the discharge documents match the years of his 1802 and 1819 marriages, the two marriages we know about. The places also fit.
The baptisms and deaths of his children need a bit more sorting out but it all looks promising.
If James had an uncle in London in 1797, as the discharge documents state. then it is quite probable that James was in contact with him. It may help us find James's marriage/wife's details particularly as we now know she was 5 years older.
I have not examined William's 1819 discharge documents which are at Kew. I will do that shortly - and let you know what I find.
I tend to agree with Deb about Lucy Brown's marriage and son Charles - I've not found anything better. Can't find a Wilts birth that fits George - there is a Weymouth birth.
The small pox deaths make you think - it must have been terrible to lose so many of your children in front of you in such a short space of time.
Regards,
Bob
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I was totally confused there and trying to fit William in as James snr's brother, uncle to soldier James.
Oh dear, thank you Bob for your website again it really is brilliant!
Right now I've got that!
Did a search for births this morning on Fra*s and Pra*s - nothing
Did a search on burials for Pra*s - again nothing
Kerry
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To the children of Samuel and Elizabeth (son of James born 1812)
The only baptism I have managed to find so far is Hannah born 1847 as follows
baptised at St Matthew, City Road
Hannah Louisa (another change of middle name) on 11 April 1855 age 11 (maybe in the intervening 11 years they forgot what they put on the birth certificate) and she married as Annie Caroline so perhaps they were simply confused!
to Samuel and Elizabeth Traies
Gas Meter Worker
abode - 14 Macclesfield Street North (I think, a bit hard to decipher), City Road
I shall keep looking for Charles, Emma and Jane
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Morning :)
I wonder if this is Williams first marriage ? ... he too signs his name Wm and not William
William Traias = Sarah Strong
12 march 1780
St Olave, Bermondsey
Batchelor & Spinster OTP
Married by Banns
both sign
witnesses;
John Cunse and Ann Mellin
deb :)
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Hi all
Can't spend too long on this but just two more observations made yesterday.
Burial - 5 April 1822 at St. Marylebone (Westminster)
Hannah PRAIES but looking at original it is TRAIES. Parents names are not given but the age is under 1 year. I suggest that this is an infant of our James and Hannah, but as she did not survive, the name of Hannah was given to another daughter in about 1826 who was still at home with parents in 1851.
We already think that the Jane baptised in Old Church, St. Pancras in 1809 died in infancy as that is why another child was named Jane in about 1823 (who later married ROFFE). I did not find any burial for the first Jane, but the burials are only indexed from 1813, so this could account for not finding the burial of the first Jane.
In the same way this start date of 1813 could be the reason that no burial was found for the first wife of William TRAIES who must have died before 1802 or his second wife Jane who could well have died before 1813.
Bye for now
Bernice
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Hi
Re Henry Traies = Sarah Ovens
I can see all the baptisms for their children except for Frederick Henry b 1843
I have also found this, which is really interesting.
Henry Traies is a tin plate worker and according to Bob's site lived in Notting Hill, High Street. He married Sarah Ovens in 1843
Now look at this baptism;
ANN JANE TRAIES d/o HENRY and JANE
bapt; 20 June 1842
born 25 May 1842
Henry = TIN PLATE WORKER
address: NOTTING HILL, HIGH STREET
deb ::)
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Hi Deb,
One interpretation is that this is the daughter of William Henry Roffe and Jane Traies. She was baptised just over two weeks before they were married in the same church and died shortly after - William Roffe was present at death per death certificate :-
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17s_ec.htm#20wr_j
The father's name given on the baptism record is curious - it may have been a clumsy effort at disguising the truth. I vaguely remember that this may have been briefly discussed many many posts ago.
Bob
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Re the Mary Ann Frais burial. I can't match this with any baptisms found so far. There is another reference to Hoxton but that is the marriage of William Traies the artist's sister - see below. Her father mentions daughter Susan Riviere in his will so this marriage is almost certainly correct.
Susan TRAIES
1798 c. 08Jul1798 Crediton Sarah daur William and Mary TRAIES (IGI C050743)
1828 m. 10Nov1828 St. Leonards, Shoreditch, London (p63 of St Leonards parish register mf LMA)
Joseph RIVIERE of this Parish widower and Susan TRAIES of this Parish spinster were married in the Chapel of St John the Baptist Hoxton by Banns this 10th day of November 1828 by Walter Kelly curate both sign their names in presence of G Garrow (?), H Benyon (?)
NOTE: The RIVIERE family may have been of Huguenot origin and featured several Victorian artists including Briton Riviere and his sister Annette Louise
I'll add the Mary Ann burial record to the list of unmatched TR**S references to be resolved.
The William Traias marriage possibly refers to our William - I'll put that one on record also.
Regards,
Bob
Hi again
James Traies lived in Queen Street
I have found an unusual amount of Traies people's burials/deaths in Queen st circa 1823 ..seems that there may have been small pox going around. I am not sure if they belong to our Traies family but thought I would post.
All QUEENS STREET, St Luke, Chelsea
Thomas Traies bc 1821 24 Oct 1823 age 2
Jane Traies bc 1819 17 Oct 1823 age 4 sm pox ..possibly child of William and Hannah Traies
Thomas Traies bc 1799 24 Oct 1823 age 24 sm pox ...
William Traies bc 1758 14 Feb 1840
here's one that def. looks like Trais on original
Mary Ann Frais bc 1819 20 Oct 1839 Saint John The Baptist, Hoxton Hackney
Chatham Gardens
deb
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Dropped into National Archives Kew briefly this morning and looked at the microfilm record of William Traies. Unfortunately all there was was a small slip - probably an index record - it merely tells us that William Traies Sergt of 28th Regiment became a Chelsea Out Pensioner on 25th Sept 1819.
Don't fully understand what the system was but I suppose that prior to 25th Sept. he was an In Pensioner ie living in Army accommodation but after that he must have been considered to have recovered enough to be able to leave and get an out-pensioner pension. Quite an exciting change of life to set up home with a new wife and start a family in one's early sixties!
Bob
PS Have updated site details for William.
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Hi everyone
I found this baptism re; Mary Ann Trais/Frais bc 1819 died 1839... not sure if she is 'ours' :)
Mary Ann TRAYS d/o John (bricklayer) and Ann
New Court Peters lane
June 27th, 1819
St Sepulchre, Holborn, City of London
can't see a marriage between a John Trays/Traies/Tra* and Ann although what does pop up are the banns read for JOHN TRAIES and ANN SUTTON. ( which we know to be James Traies and Ann Sutton)
there is a later marriage for John Trais, bricklayer, widow, 69 to a mary Ann Langley in 1852.
deb
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Hi Deb,
There is a Traies, on the speculative tree not on website, who fits this one in that:-
1. His father was a mason, so bricklayer is a probable occupation.
2. He has a wife Anne so that is a definite match.
3. They marry in Crediton in 1814 so date of baptism fits.
4. No record of him in Crediton has been found after the baptism of son George in 1814.
5. His son George eventually moves to London (but appears to be in Crediton in 1841).
Details below:-
John TRAIES
1793 c. 22Dec1793 Crediton, Devon. John son John [mason] and Hannah TRAIES (IGI C050743)
1814 m. 4Feb1814 Crediton, Devon. John TRAIES and Ann POPHAM (IGI M050741)
Ann POPHAM
?1841 Census Crediton Ance Traie 55 FS Yes (entry appears to be Anie TRAIES)
Nothing more known.
George TRAIES
1814 c. 27Feb1814 Crediton, Devon. son John and Ann TRAIES (IGI C050743)
1841 Census George Traies, age 25, Devon, England, Crediton, Devon.
1851 Census St Lukes, Finsbury 57 Golden Lane (HO107/1522 263 31)
George Trees head unm 37 lab b Crediton
with other unrelated people living with him
1853 m. 27Apr1853 St. Thomas Charterhouse, Finsbury, London George TRAIES and Martha HOLIGROVE(IGI M042071)
This John's father appears to be a cousin of the artist - his father John married Hannah Snow and was brother of William, the artist's father, who appears to have married Mary Hooper.
I will have a look at some of the other Trayes trees to see if there is any other Tr**s who fits but I reckon you have found yet another missing Traies. I feel sure it is one of the West Country TR**S lot. I haven't looked at the above tree for a year or two but I notice Golden Lane appearing there - I am sure I remember that address from something else.... I'll check on that as well.
Bob
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Hi again,
I can't find any other John and Ann marriages - doesn't mean there aren't any but in the absence of anything more that marriage is the best fit. John's brother Samuel left a very strange will - he had lost contact with his son and thought he may have joined the army - this will does not mention his brother John but it doesn't mention John's son George either so I think he was omitted because either he was financially OK or maybe he was not close to hand.
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Topsham/SamuelTraies1841.html
Both the Golden Lane references were burials at the burial ground there but they don't seem directly related. One of them :-
Susan TREAYS 1852 London, buried at Golden Lane 12Sep1852 age 71 Address Caroline Place Goswell Street
is one of the Bristol Trayes family - the death was already recorded but had never been linked to the burial - she must be the Susan nee Arscott in tree below:-
http://www.trease.org.uk/trt/trt17w_gg.htm#18w_sa
The other one is a mystery:-
Ann TRAIS 1852 London buried 20th June 1852 Golden Lane age 84 so born 1768 AAD 10 Cherry Tree Court White Cross Lane
In 1824 William Masters Traies and George Nangle silversmiths of Cherry Tree Court - partnership was dissolved. William's sister Betsey had married a George Nangle. The AAD appears to be the same one as appears in this family tree but it may be just a coincidence
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17w_mb.htm#18j_em
The only suitable London based death I can find for a John Traies is:-
Q1 1862 John Trays Hackney (Vol 1b 264)
there is also a Q4 1871 Pancras Ann Trees age 86 (vol 1b 29)
but it is impossible to draw any firm conclusions.
Interestingly the John Trais marriage in 1852 would match the said John Traies on age if the age was 59 instead of 69.
Regards,
Bob
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Hi Bob, Deb, Kerry etc.
Just to say that the date that Deb gave for the baptism of James son of Hannah and William in 1826 (born 1824) was the correct one. I gave the year as 1830 which is wrong - maybe the fact he was baptised on the 30th of the month made me write 1830!
Talking about dates - did anyone else notice that William TRAIES and Hannah KNIGHT had married on 16 July 1819, William became an Out Pensioner at Chelsea 25 September 1819 and daughter, Jane, was baptised the next day 26 September 1819! Bob wondered how an old man came to marry a young spinster. Hannah was obviously heavily pregnant at the time of their marriage. Possibly it was not even William's child (he would have been an in-patient when Jane was conceived) but Hannah took the best escape route she could see. By marrying William the child took his name and Hannah got some sort of security. Maybe it came as a surprise to her when she discovered that the old man still had plenty of life left in him!
Bernice
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Hi everyone.
Bernice... I like your thoughts on the dates and why Hannah may have married William. :)
Bob ..I forget how the "Masters Traies' people fit in.
I have found Betsey Masters Traies Marriage under FRAIES. ( St Mary Abchurch ) George Nangle = widower
18th Oct 1823
witnesses are interesting;
James Smith
Mellona(??) Traies
Mary Jackman Traies
Looking at the whole page of marriages on which BMT and GN marry ..it seems that James Smith was a witness to all but one. :-\
Do the witnesses sound/look familiar?
deb
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Dear Bernice et al,
I had hoped to have an idyllic picture of an old man brought near to death thorough a chronic disability brought about through serving his country recovering to health and starting a new life with a young wife. I am not sure what to think now - the rules on Wikipedia state that you had to be free from the obligation to support a wife or family to be an in-pensioner yet William was clearly married before he was declared an out pensioner. All very mysterious if he married while an in-pensioner and anyway what was the point of marrying if you were going to live in a room by yourself - I expect there are more Chelsea records that will help determine what went on.
He was definitely invalided out of the army in November 1797 and appears to be in Chelsea then but in December 1797 he joins the militia which seems to me to be a part time force on call so surely he could not be an In pensioner then? They are disbanded in April 1802 and he marries Jane in Sep 1802 so surely he must be an out-pensioner then? This link to wikipedia outlines the Chelsea rules:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_pensioner#In-_and_out-pensioners.
I find it all very confusing,
Regards,
Bob
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Hi again :)
from Bob's site:
FAMILY OF WILLIAM TREAYS and SUSAN ARSCOTT
children;
Harriet TREAYS (23 in 1841)
Eliza TREAYS (21 in 1841 = John Brine)
Marriage for Harriett = James Camken
25 Dec 1847 Saint Marylebone
Harriett : full age, spinster, Carburton St, father: WILLIAM TREAYS: BOOTMAKER
James: full age, widower, gardener, Norton St, father: William Camken, butcher, deceased
witnesses;
Edw Speller
Eliza TREAYS
deb :)
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Hi Deb,
Mary Jackman Traies is her sister born 1802 in Dartmouth. Before your post, the only record I had was her baptism/birth so it is useful to know she was still alive at time of her sister's marriage. Melloney Traies was another sister aka Amelia who married William Jackman in 1832.
I have no idea what happened to Betsey and George Nangle but I reckon they may have emigrated to the USA and George set up as a Silversmith there.
No idea what happened to Mary Jackman Traies.
The other witness James Smith may have been a church warden or other attendant at church.
Bob
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Hi Bob
We keep on crossing each other in Cyberspace LOL
I will look around for the Nangles and the Jackman Traies people.
from your site;
FAMILY OF WILLIAM TREAYS and SUSAN ARSCOTT
Per IGI, Susannah TREAYS, daughter of William TREAYS and Miss GEIMMET was christened at Bristol on 6Jan1816. This may be another child of
this William TREAYS. William's brother Edward married a Joan GWINNETT in 1817 - could GEIMMET and GWINNETT be the same family?
I have found this;
Banns
Henry Treays = Sarah Grimmett
9 Jun 1838
all very similar. What do you think?
deb
St James, Clerkenwell
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Hi Bob
Found the marriage of Henry TREAYS and Sarah GRIMMETT. August 4th, 1839, St James Clerkenwell
Henry TREAYS, full age, batchelor, shoemaker, 1 CAROLINA PLACE, father WILLIAM TREAYS shoemaker
Sarah GRIMMETT , full age, spinster, 3 Church Street, Father: Thomas, Grocer
witnesses: Thomas Grimmett and Mary Grimmett
So William had a son who is not on your site.
deb :)
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I wonder if Mary Treays is d/o Henry Treays and Sarah Grimmett as you have her a dau to William and Susan .... but we think she is the granddaughter and not dau.
Mary TREAYS
1841 Mary Treays, age 6, b. St James Clerkenwell , Middlesex, Daur. (so stated but probably G.daur. but daur. of whom?) living 1 Caroline Place, Clerkenwell, Middlesex
1851 Census Mary Treays, age 11, Clerkenwell, Middlesex,daughter, living at 1 Caroline Place, Clerkenwell ,Middlesex with "grand?" parents
will look for her
deb
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In 1851 Henry Treays is 37 (shoemaker) b St Lukes and is living at Edwards street, Shoreditch, with Sarah (39, dressmaker, b westminster st James).
children
Mary 7, St Luke
sarah 4, St Luke
Thomas 2, Shoreditch
So it looks like Mary the dau/gr dau bc 1835 is not his. :-\
deb
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re; The NANGLES
George and Betsey married in 1823
I found this interesting passenger list
Mr Nangle 35
Mrs Nangle 32
Joseph 13
Emma 9
Fanny 7
Clara 5
Albert 3
Ship; Monongahela
leaving Liverpool to Philadelphia. Penn
25 Nov 1831
need to follow through as I cannot spot any more on these people.
deb
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Hi Deb,
GEIMMETT could easily be a transcription error for GRIMMETT. Think the baptism of daughter of Susannah TREAYS daur of William TREAYS and MIss Geimett followed by marriage of William's son Henry to Sarah Grimmett cannot be a coincidence - it must be the same family. That William's brother Edward should marry a Gwinnett also looks strange - I don't think name is very common.
The Nangle passenger list entry looks superficially to be a long shot but Mrs Nangle's age matches Betsy's age. The son Joseph's age fits with George being a widower when he married Betsy. I think Nangle may be an Irish name so may not be uncommon for emigrants from Liverpool. We'll wait and see on that.
Finding the previously unknown Thomas Treays is really good find. More pieces to fit the Tr**s jigsaw puzzle.
Regards,
Bob
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morning all
THought I would finish the life of The unknown Henry TREAYS and Family.
Still can't see them in 1841.
1861
Lower Terrace
Islington St Mary, Middlesex
Samuel GRIMMETT head mar 44 dairyman b Westminster, Middx
Sarah A wife 47 b Islington
Rachael sister unm 56 dressmaker b Westminster St James
Mary A HEARN mother wid 68 dressmaker b Walworth, Surrey
SARAH TREAYS sister wid dressmaker b Westminster, St James
Mary A TREAYS niece unm 17 dressmaker b St Lukes, Middx
Thomas TREAYS nephew 10 b Shoreditch, Middx......... transcribed as TREEYS
Catherine Scanlan serv unm 30 dairymaid b Ireland, Kerry
Mary P/Bresmane serv 29 dairymaid b ditto
During this time, Sarah TREAYS, bc 1846 is working as a nurse maid in the home of William M Davies a lace warehouseman in Islington, 22 South Grove Street.
Found Henry's burial at last ...
Henry FREAYS, Islington, Middx, Lower Terrace, burial; 10 Jan 1855, age 40
deb
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death reg:
Henry Treays
mar q 1855
Islington
1b 190
still looking for them in 1871.
1871: found a William TRAYS, prisoner, married, 21, tinman b St Lukes
Her Majestys Pentonville Prison
Islington
is he ours?
deb
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well , Thomas TREAYS must be somewhere in 1871 as I have him in 1891 as a Lodger and Shoe Riveter, b Shoreditch, age 40 (sic), in Kettering, Northamptonshire.
1881
Sarah Trayes (transcribed: Treayle, unm, 34, ) is a servant to Mary Healey.
address;29 Triuder(?) St, St Mary, Islington
1871 (found her at last :)) transcribed asTreay
9 Westbourne (Trestbourne ??) rd, Islington, St Clement
Sarah Treays, servant, unm 24 b Islington
working for Mary Healy.
By 1891 Sarah has been promoted to housekeeper for Mary Healy :D. Sarah is 44 still unmarried and now born Kentish Town. Living at 29 Trinder Rd, St Mary Islington.
1901 finds them still together at the same address.
Deb :)
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No luck with Thomas ::)
seems like the whole family has disappeared in 1871.
1881
29 alexander st, St Mary, Islington
Mary Ann TREAYS, lodger, unm, 37, dressmaker employing assistant, b St Luke
with Mary Ann Hood , annuitant
deb
added
Just found Sarah (the mum), her death
Sarah Treays
bc 1812
died; Jun q 1873
aged 61
Islington
1b 178
so where is she in 1871?? ::) :-\
-
oooo yippeeee
1871
Islington, St Mary
31 Florence Street
Sarah VREAYS :o def. TREAYS, head wid, 59 dressmaker b Clerkenwell
Martha Dau unm 27 dressmaker b ditto
THOMAS son unm 20 shoe trade, rough stuff cutter ;D b ditto
so is Martha actually Mary Ann??
the occupations all add up as do their ages.
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Hi Deb,
At least two new mistranscriptions - TRAYLE and VREAYS!! I really don't know how you find these.
I am trying to track down the prisoner William Trayes. Not any TRAIES we know about but may well be one of the other Trayes families from Cornwall. I can't see him yet but will try and track him down. An account of the trial is on the Old Bailey site - he got seven years.
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18700606-495&div=t18700606-495&terms=trays#highlight
He can't have been married long.
I am updating the website with details you have found and will post it up in the next hour or two.
I reckon the Martha name may be another error where the enumerator possibly jotted down MaryA and then copied the name as Martha. These families really move about - Northants was the centre of the Uk shoe industry so I suppose that was why Thomas went to Kettering - strange the specialist jobs people had then - rough stuff cutter.
Bye for now,
Bob
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Hi everyone
I was searching the Channel Islands for my cousin and came across this person;
1851
St Peter Port, Guernsey
45 Long ??
William TRAIS head wid 70 Annuitant b England
In 1841 I find this family.
Upper Don St.
St Helier, Jersey
Wm TREY 30 baker
Susan 30
Wm 7
Susan 6
all born "E" = England
Can't see anyone else in 1841, 1851 or 1861
deb :)
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Hi Deb,
Can't find any person from existing records we have who matches William Trays, the prisoner, and have had no joy in tracking him on BMD or census records. The only Trays family who could remotely fit is that of James, the son of Edward, the brother of William TREAYS the cordwainer of Caroline Place whose son Henry marrried Sarah Grimmett. Edward married Jane/ Joan Gwinnett (Grimmett?) and his son James born in Somerset went to live in Lambeth and married Margaret ? They had a son James recorded age 3 in the 1851 census and may have had further children. I can see the family name TRAYES and born or living in Lambeth in later census returns but this has not been researched further. However this family is Lambeth based and William states he is born St Lukes so looks unlikely to be one of their offspring. All I have on that family at present is :-
http://www.trease.org.uk/trt/trt17w_gg.htm#18e_jg
Re the William TRAIS, annuitant of Guernsey, again no knowledge of him. My hunch is that he may be related to the two TRAIS persons who drew up these wills:-
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txr/trais_wills.htm
They are "into" annuities and there is a Guernsey connection - Charles Grimes (who discovered the Yarra river and married Mary Trais's daughter) was based there.
I will see if I can discover more about the above,
Regards,
Bob
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Hi, my name is Genny Treays and I have come across your blog. I was researching my Uncle John in University - I'm studying town planning which he was a division of in Plymouth, Devon, where some family still live. Obviously this is close to cornwall and all these other towns ending in -comb which I remember from my childhood family visits, which have also been mentioned in your previous blogs.
I can't help but wonder if I might be able to help as Treays is not a very common name and I keep seeing names within your posts that seem to have been recycled through generations in my family: Samuel, Martin, Jane, John.. and through researching the name Treays I have come across what appear to be relatives from the 1800s with my surname, in a place called StGennys... which I can't help but wonder whether there is any connection. I would love to hear back from any of you to see what you think and I can easily help with my family tree going back to before the 1900s where you appear to have arrived from your research dating back to what looks like the 1700s.
Regards, Genny.
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Dear Genny,
There was a Samuel Treays born in St Gennys who may be related to you. There is a bit about him on this link.
http://www.trease.org.uk/trf/trf17s_ms.htm
We've never traced all his children - between Peter Treays born 1793 and Ann Treays born 1807 only one child Betty born 1797 has been found. My ancestor John was brother to Samuel Treays from St Gennys.
Even if you are not a descendant of Samuel there are several other of the St. Gennys family who have never been traced on this family tree. Be great to hear from you what information you have and to work with you to see where it fits.
Regards,
Bob
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So is everyone posting here part of the Treays/Trease/Traies family? What or who is everyone trying to find or trace back, or even forward, to?
I had a look at that link gardenerbob but I'd need to spend some time speaking to my grandma to find out about my grandad's parents and grandparents who some of those people may well be. It's just difficult because she lives in Devon whereas I'm in Scotland.
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Hi Genny
Welcome to the Treays/Traies etc etc hunt
I have Traies in my family line, in the Kensington and Hackney areas of London in the mid 18th century and before that Exeter in Devon. A number of us have been searching for James Traies and his (I think the latest count is 5) wives.
Kerry
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Any reason you're all looking for a James Treays? And when and where was he supposed to have lived?
-
Hi
James Traies was born 1785 in Exeter, Devon, and at some point moved to London. For the best summary of his life Bob has a page on his brilliant website http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17s_ec.htm#19j_h
a number of rootschatters that have been on here are descended in some way from James, I'm descended from his son, Samuel.
Kerry
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Nothing particularly exciting but .... a long time back on this thread, a question was raised as to whether James could be the father of the following infant interred 15Apr1831 Bunhill cemetery - William Traies age 2yr 6mos of Powell Street.
I think I may have the answer, although I have not found his baptism. On 01oct1826, Mary and Elizabeth Traies daughters of William and Louisa Traies, Silversmith, of Powell Street were baptised at St Lukes Old Street Finsbury. I think it almost certain that William Traies the silversmith was also the father of the infant William of Powell Street. So far appears he was the only son and would have been the last son on this branch of the Traies family tree to carry on the family name. William the father almost certainly went to Cincinnatti after his son's death and returned to die in the UK.
Although that burial now has a probable answer, in my search I noticed another burial - Mary Traies interred 06Nov1828 age 8 mos at St Marys Paddington Green Westminster AAD Paddington. This could possibly be a child of James or even his Uncle James (who would have then been pushing 70!).
Regards,
Bob
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Correction:
Uncle James should have read Uncle William (the Chelsea pensioner with a younger wife) in last sentence of last post.
Apologies,
Bob
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Hi Bob
Thanks for that, I recently downloaded the Mary Traies burial 1828 to my just in case pile and I feel she must have been a child of James. That reminds me to try and find a baptism for her again.
Kerry
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Result!!!!
For anyone still following this thread, I have at last found the burial of Jane Traies who was born to James and Hannah in 1809.
She was buried at Whitefield's memorial church on 23 Feb 1810, at Camden and of St Pancras.
That is thanks to new non conformist records on Ancestry ;D
Kerry
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Dear Kerry,
Well spotted - have added to website.
Yesterday added more about the Wivell family but nothing that would particularly interest others on this thread.
Regards,
Bob
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Hi,
While searching for something completely different I spotted the following references which I think are part of James Traies ancestry:-
1. Administration of Samuel Traise of Exeter 1766. (Devonshire Wills and Administrations - British Record Society 1908)
The last child christened of Samuel Traies, whom we think was James's grandfather was James Traies christened on 18May1766 in Exeter. Therefore the administration of Samuel Traise of Exeter in 1766 exactly fits what we would expect. Unfortunately the admon. documents appear to have been destroyed in the Exeter blitz.
2. 1803 - Devon and Exeter Militia List (per Ancestry website)
* Samuel Trays Fuller - I think this may refer to James' Father.
* James Trays Tin Man 1--- I do not understand this reference fully but we know that James was a tin plate worker. This reference may refer to his uncle James and explain why James followed that occupation.
Have added to the website
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17s_ec.htm
That's all for now.
Regards,
Bob.
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Hi Bob, Kerry, Deb and ....
I came across your chat room and cannot believe the amount of info you have managed to collate on the Traies family. As I read through I think "yes it is all falling into place" and then the confusion sets in - which William or Sarah or ...?
I am researching Sarah Traies b.c 1790 and married William Underhill 27/3/1808 in Crediton. One of their children, Kezia, married William Gear and came to Australia in January 1871 on the "Lady Cairns".
I came across Samuel Traies' will where he potentially makes Sarah Underhill a beneficiary. I am trying to establish the connection between Samuel, William the executor and artist, Hannah Legg nee Traies and Ann Middlewick. Hopefully this may lead me to Sarah's parents or I guess with all your reseach you may know anyway.
I would be extremely grateful for any assistance and if ever you need anything looked up down under don't hesitate to let me know
Regards
Jan
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Dear Jan and others on this thread,
Jan - I have sent you a PM with hopefully all the information you need including a 'tentative' tree showing the relationship between Sarah Underhill nee Traies and William Traies the artist.
Since my previous post I have looked at the transcription of the 1803 Militia List for Holy Trinity Parish, Exeter on GENUKI. Unfortunately it fails to say what Class James falls into but the '1---' after his name on Ancestry implies that he is class 1 which is for unmarried males age 17 - 30. If the James on the list is in that class he is almost certainly our James, the son of Samuel.
Bob
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Evening all
Firstly welcome Jan to the Traies family :)
NB: If you want to reply to Bob's private message you will need to make 3 postings on the boards.
Bob if I am correct, you are saying our James (he of the many wives) was in the Militia in Exeter in 1803. That's closing in on the date for his marriage to Hannah. Must have been somewhere between 1803 and 1809 then. Seems his son, James must have followed in his footsteps then!
I have been busy looking at the probate calendar just released on Ancestry this week and the only Traies that bears any relation to any of my lot that left a will appears to be Henry (son of James) I might at some point order the will but it joins a bit of a que!
There were a number of others related to the other group of Traies in the London area.
Kerry
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Well it is 8am Sunday morning here. What a wonderful wake to wake up. I have been sleeping while you guys have been working on my problems. Thank you ever so much. I will spend the day digesting the information and will get back to you
Cheers
Jan
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Hi Tra**s people
I need to catch up with the new info ....
do we need to find anything in particular?....just remember ... Traies is the MOST weirdly enumerated name ;D
I think it may be fun to go through this thread and the previous one and see how badly they were transcribed !!! ummmm ...if I have time one day I may make this my mission LOL
as always
Deb the wanna be Traies person ;)
PS ... WELCOME JAN! :)
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Morning Deb
Every so often I do another search for Hannah unknown, wife of James. At least I now have her burial in 1818 but a marriage would be wonderful!!!! LOL
Bob whereabouts on Ancestry did you find the Devon and Exeter militia list, I can't find them anywhere??
Kerry
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Can anyone confirm that the Sarah Ann Traies who died 6 March 1904 was the widow of Henry Traies (nee Ovens)?
I ask because the probate calendar mentions she left probate to Eliza Traies wife of Charles Emanuel Traies and they appear in another part of the tree???
Kerry
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OOOH now here's an interesting one!
Just doing some lateral thinking searching for our missing baptisms of James's children and found the following
James Stephen Taries baptised 6 June 1817 to James and Hannah at St Leonards Shoreditch
Now my geography of London is not that good but Hannah was buried at St Dunstans, Stepney 1818 and James married Ann Sutton (we think) in Hackney. So what do you think?
Also on James jnr military papers he has his place of birth as Mile End but I am not sure whereabouts that is?
Kerry
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Another question!
Deleted - just found the answer back on page 22.
Kerry
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Dear Kerry,
Working through your queries ....
The latest tree based shows Charles Emmanuel Traies was the son of Henry and Sarah Traies nee Ovens, and that his wife was probably nee Reed.
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17s_ec.htm#20h_so
Charles may have been an undischarged bankrupt when his mother died and that may account for why she made her daughter in law executor. There may have been an earlier version of the tree that shows something different. I remember doing several changes to the Traies trees as more information came to light.
The Ancestry reference to the 1803 Exeter Militia List appeared when I was looking for something totally different using the Ancestry facility at my local library. It appeared sandwiched between burial and will references. I can't remember whether I had entered a special collection - I certainly was not looking at military collections so it is not under military. I'll see if I can reproduce it next week when the library is open.
More to follow...
Bob
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Excellent that confirms the death of Sarah (nee Ovens) then. 6 March 1904 at 43 Seaford Road, West Ealing, Middlesex.
Kerry ;D
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Hi Kerry
errrr ::) ...re James and Hannah ...when were they supposed to have been married? or when was first child born?
deb
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First child, Jane born 1809 in St Pancras.
Kerry
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Morning all
bob
I've been checking out the first marriage of Elizabeth Traies (nee Michel) today to John Roberts and these are the records I have found for possible children: (LMA records on Ancestry)
Caroline Elizabeth Roberts
born 4 August 1823, bpt 28 September 1823
Weymouth Street, Whipmaker
Henry Stephen Roberts
born 11 March 1826, bpt 2 July 1826
Weymouth Street, Whipmaker
Elizabeth Caroline Roberts
born 29 October 1828, bpt 21 December 1828
East Lane, Whipmaker
This one I don't think is one of theirs
Emma Roberts
born 24 October 1823, bpt 9 October 1825
Hill Street, Walworth, Painter
Also the following I really don't think is one of their children
Maria Hannah roberts
born 28 November 1829, bpt 30 June 1837
North Street, Labourer to John and Ann
I don't think it is one of theirs because in 1837 Elizabeth would have been baptising her second child to Samuel so why go back to the place of her first marriage and give totally different details, presumably Samuel took on the children so why not baptise with baby Emma, come to that why not have had Maria baptised with first son Charles born 1832!
Also different occupation and address.
I think the letter of 1873 referring to Mary Annie could have been referring to her and Samuel's daughter Hannah Caroline, who so far has been registered under the following names
Hannah Caroline - birth certificate
Hannah Louisa - baptism record
Annie Hannah - marriage certificate
Hannah - 1851/61 census
Sorry!
I will now look for a burial for the first child Caroline Elizabeth and I also think he Eliza age 12 with Samuel and Elizabeth on 1841 census must have been Elizabeth Caroline.
Kerry
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also just found an 1851 census - St Giles, Camberwell a Maria age 22 born Bermondsey with her mother Ann. Widow.
Kerry
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Well!
trying to find Elizabeth's parent Louis and Elizabeth Michel and tried Rootsweb trees as a starting point. Well imagine my surprise when I found a tree with a number of children that do fit records I have found on Ancestry with details for Louis - born about 1780 Rouen, France.
Now I'm not making assumptions but I need to go and lie down, that's the first drop of foreign blood in my tree!!!!!!
Kerry ::)
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1803 militia list - Ancestry
At the library this morning I entered in the general search screen - Samuel Trays, birth year - 1800 country England and the 1803 militia list entry popped up as the first hit. It showed :-
Samuel Trays Fuller ---1- (labelled Extracted Parish Records)
I did the same for James Trays and the first entry this time was :-
James Trays Tin Man 1----- (labelled Extracted Parish Records)
In each case there were 4 '-' plus one 1.
If the dashes represent the classes it could be that James is Class 1. We know Samuel is Class 4 from the Genuki transcript. The description of 'Tin Man' fits so I guess it could be our James - I keep thinking of the Wizard of Oz character.
One thing that puzzles me is that the marriage of James and Sally Crees in the same parish in 1803 is attributed to James's uncle James and their daughter Rebecca is christened in the same parish in 1804 but that James somehow eludes the 1803 militia list unless... After 1804 as far as I can see the trail of that James appears to runs cold.
Eliza Robert's children
I'll get the tree corrected. There were so many children of John and Eliza Robert's on IGI that only a few were listed that seemed to fit. The two families explains the number. The Mary Annie may be a mistranscription of the original letter I suppose. Unfortunately I do not have the letter but may be able to access it later in the year if I remember.
The James christening
Like you I am not knowledgeable of London. I seem to remember St Dunstans was Mile End Old Town and Shoreditch seems to be next door so my guess would be it is a possible. Could the middle name Stephen be his wife's surname?
Ann Traies widow with daur Maria
Can't find anything that fits so far - could be a new Traies family.
Regards,
Bob
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Hi Bob
Sorry should have said the Maria with mother Ann was a Roberts and I think the same Maria baptised to John and Ann in 1837 who I do not think is connected to children of John Roberts and Elizabeth Michel.
Kerry :)
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Hi all,
I was glad to see the sudden burst of activity on the TRAIES board. Thanks Bob and Kerry for the new information.
I wa pleased to get the burial record of Jane TRAIES, first child of James and Hannah in 1810. We thought that Jane must have died as a baby as James named another daughter, Jane, many years later. Thanks Kerry for that.
Regarding finding your way around the London parishes, it may help if you try to think of some of the parishes in the East end as forming a triangle with rounded corners. The top third of the triangle is the large parish of St. John. Hackney. The second third of the triangle is a row of three parishes being (from left to right) St. Leonard, Shoreditch, St. Matthew, Bethnal Green and St. Mary Stratford le Bow. Below St Leonard Shoreditch is part of the City of London. Below St Matthew Bethanl Green are three parishes, Christchurch, Spitalfields, St. Mary. Whitechapel and St. Dunstan, Stepney. Below St. Mary. Stratford le Bow is St, Mary,Bromley St. Leonard. Below this row of parishes are further small parishes stretching down to the river Thames itself.
I know that trying to understand the parishes and hamlets of London is not easy. Even Bethnal Green and Whitechapel were originally part of the parish of Hackney, although by the start of the reign of Victoria in 1837 they were parishes in their own right. By the end of Victoria's reign there were a huge number of parishes and many more churches were built. Many of the new parishes were formed by splitting of original larger parishes.
I'm too tired to write more now, but I'll be sending another message soon, as I have a few comments I'd like to make in response to various recent messages. If you are interested in seeing a map of the pre 1837 parishes I could scan it and send it to you in two halves. I couldn't send it to the board and would have to send it as a private e-mail
Speak to you again soon.
Bernice
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Hi Bernice
Nice to hear from you again. Thank you for the information about the London parishes. A map would probably be very helpful. I have links to various websites but can never find them when I really want them.
I too was so pleased to be able to put a death date onto the first Jane, now if only we could find the baptisms for some of the other children it might help to sort out the mother once and for all!
Every so often I have a search on Ancestry with some new permutation to see if anything comes up.
Kerry
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Hi all,
Good to get the copy of the Militia List for 1803 from Bob. Yes, it would certainly seems that the Samuel and James TRAYS on the list are the ancestors being researched by Kerry and myself, although we think of them as TRAIES and not TRAYS.
As Kerry rightly says it does help to define the time of the marriage of James to Hannah down to sometime after 1803 and before 1809 when their first child was born.
Hannah TRAIES was definately buried in St. Dunstan's, Stepney in 1818 and I sent a copy of the actual burial entry to Kerry last night. Mile End Old Town at that time was a hamlet within this parish. This means that the children of James born after 1818 were certainly not the children of Hannah, but of James and his second wife Ann SUTTON. I don't think you have updated this in your research, Bob.
Regarding James the soldier (a son of James and Hannah) born 1816/17, on one of his documents he gives Mile End as his place of birth and in another it is said to be St. Mary le Bow. At the time of his birth the Mile End Road would seem to have been a mile long section of the main road which stretched from the outter side of Aldersgate in the city walls and ran eastwards through Stepney and St. Mary le Bow and then on towards Colchester in Essex. Mile End Old Town had developed either side of the Mile End Road.
When Kerry read that the name of James (Senior) had appeared on the Militia List in Exeter in 1803, she appeared to think that meant that James Senior had been in the army (in 1803) and mentioned that therefore his son, James, by joining the army had been following in his father's footsteps. This was not the case. The Militia Lists were just used to list all the inhabitants in a parish who could be called to defend it in an emergency. The 1803 List was important as there was a serious threat of invasion by Napoleon.
I was interested in the entry found by Kerry in the register's of St. Leonard Shoreditch. where a baptism had taken place 6 June 1817 for a James Stephen son of James and Hannah TARIES. I think there is a strong possibilility that this is the baptism of James, junior, son of James and Hannah TRAIES. The year of birth would fit and although I've looked at census returns for the surname TARIES, also the IGI, free BMD etc. I can find no families by the name of TARIES. I can't prove it is one of 'our' missing christenings , and we do not know if he had a second name of Stephen. I feel we can't rule this entry out at this stage.
Bye for now
Bernice
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Thank you for a most helpful summary Bernice.
I didn't really know what militia lists were so your explanation is not only helpful but also interesting.
I did some census searching for Taries too and didn't come up with anything. I also feel although we can't yet say for definite this is one of our christenings it is a strong contender. I wonder where the name Stephen came from? Was there an ancestor?
I shall keep on trawling the London records for those missing christenings.
Kerry
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Hi everyone :)
I have looked at the James Stephen TARIES baptism ... I hate to put a spanner in the works but to me it looks like his surname is DAVIES .... I searched the next page on the original and there is a Thomas and someone's occupation is a Timber Merchant ... The "Ts" do not match that of the T in TARIES.
I searched for JS DAVIES in the censuses ...didn't find him but did find this:
BURIAL:
James Stephen DAVIES age 9 years of CROWN street
11 Apr 1824
St Leonard Shoreditch, Hackney.
deb
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:'( :'( :'( :'(
I have to say Deb you could well be right. I've had another look at the page and there are other capital Ds and it does look like them. Sadly no capital Ts on that page to compare with.
Oh well back to the drawing board.
Kerry :-\
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so sorry, Kerry :'(
I have had another look around and found this baptism ... I believe it is the same as the TARIES' one but much clearer.
James Stephen Davies
6 Jun 1817
s/o James and Hannah Davies
St Leonard Shoreditch
Hackney
his DOB = July 31, 1815 ...which fits with his burial age.
deb
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Hi all
I just want to correct a slight error. In my previous message I mentioned the place of birth of James TRAIES (junior, soldier) being given as St. Mary le Bow on one occasion - this should have read Stratford le Bow. St Mary is the name of the parish church in that parish, so the full name of the parish was St. Mary, Stratford Le Bow. (sometimes called St. Mary, Stratford at Bow).
If anyone is interested in the huge subject of the growth of the London parishes. I suggest they look at the publications sold by the West Surrey Family History Society. Many years ago, when I first stumbled upon London and Middlesex ancestors of my own (not TRAIES who belong to my husband's family) I bought a few of West Surrey FHS research guides and found them extremely useful, once I began to understand them.
The guides are all in my opinion very cheap to buy. I bought
No. 2. Suburban London before 1837, a map showing the Parish boundaries. (with a few notes on the reverse about the early parishes)
No. 6. Genealogical Research in Victorian London and the accompanying map which shows the Registration Districts and Parishes in 1877. (You need to have both of these to understand what the guides mean)
No 8. A Genealogical Gazetter of Mid-Victorian London (to help find streets as they were in 1877, many of which changed names so will not be found on present day maps)
I've also got No. 33. A Guide to Middlesex Parish Documents which includes Poor Law Records.
There are these and many others listed on the site of their publications for sale, some of them no doubt updated versions of those I have, plus new publications since I bought mine about 15 years ago (very little information on line then so I have made many trips to London visting various record offices and libraries in the past.
Best wishes
Bernice
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Thanks Bernice
I will look into these, they sound as if I would find them really useful.
Kerry
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I am trying to locate the person who created the website:
http://www.trease.org.uk/trb/trb17w_gg/trb17w_gg_excise.htm
There is an entry that mentions my ancestor Thomas BASSETT. I would like to learn what records to search to find out more about Thomas' service as an Excise Officer.
David Attride
Moderator Comment: email address removed to help prevent spam and other abuses, as per RootsChat Policy. Please use our secure PM system to share email addresses and other personal information. Thank You.
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Dear David.
The Excise records are held at The National Archives in Kew. There are two sets of records that I have looked at - the Entry Papers and the Excise Minute books.
The entry papers give details of the sureties etc. Unfortunately entry papers prior to 1820 have not survived so for your Thomas Bassett you will have no luck but if like my family there were later entrants to the Excise Service you may be able to retrieve their entry papers.
The Excise Minute Books are hard bound books with daily entries recording significant matters such as postings/promotions/demotions of Excise Officers. For your Thomas Bassett you should be able to find and transcribe entries relating to his various postings from the start to the end of his career.
The Excise Minute Books are class 47. Each minute book had an index. When I researched this at Kew, the indexes had been put onto microfilm, so I looked at the index of each minute book in the relevant period for the Excise Officer I was researching to see if they were mentioned in that book and if so requested the book so I could look at the entry. It may be that these records have now been converted to digital images in which case research could be done without getting a readers ticket - necessary fro retreiving original documents.
Let me know if this helps or if you have other queries.
Bob.
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Hi Bob,
Thank you so much for your detailed replay. I live in the U.S. and am not at all familiar with the records at Kew. I will have to check online to see if I can access any of them. In 2 months I am going to the LDS Family History Library in Salt Lake City. I was hoping to find microfilms of Excise records in their vast library but have checked their online card catalog and see that they do not have these records. Perhaps I will have to consider hiring a researcher.
David
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Hi all
Ages since I've said anything on here and ages since I've done any family history. :)
Today filling a boring and cold afternoon I have been going through the database available on ancestry from LMA and on checking the Land Tax records I have found 3 entries for a James Traies paying rent to a George Archer in Stepney, Mile End. That gets us a little nearer to pinning down the birthplace of James jnr born 1816 and we think Mile End.
From 1821 to 1829 he appears to be St Marylebone which certainly fits with Jane born there in 1823. That should be where Emma and Hannah were born in that case!
Kerry
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Kerryyyyyyyyyy :D
Believe it or not but I was thinking of the Traies Family two days ago and wondered about everyone.
How fab that you posted.
deb
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Hi Deb
Haha I think about the Traies family from time to time, usually in terms where the ***** were you James?!
I've been working through the various surnames I have in London and coming up with some interesting stuff. Now it is the turn of the Traies family.
Kerry
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I have to go out for half an hour but will be back ... Can you summarize James T, his details ...I just can't fathom reading through part 1 and 39 pages of this thread LOL ::)
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Hi,
Always in awe of 'deb' and 'kerry' research, and will keep in touch. Currently updating website for Aussie reunion in about a year's time.
Bob.
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Hi Bob
Found my way back to your Traies site ..You have added a lot since I was last there especially to James T b 1785 Devon. :)
I have been going mad again trying to find James' baptism ie: James T b 1816, Stratford le Bow.
I'm wondering if James snr. married Hannah in Devon?
Nice to see you again!!!!!
deb
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Hi Bob
Please don't tell me there are Traies in Aussie!!!!!!
Deb I've often wondered if James snr married Hannah in Devon, although the first children Jane and Samuel and Anne were all born and baptised in London and Jane died in London a year after her birth. But at least with the rent records we can pin him down to Mile End in 1816.
Kerry
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Dear Kerry,
I can reassure you that the Trease website does not indicate that any of the Traies family ended up in Aus. However Samuel Traies who married in Crediton in 1654, appears to have had several brothers who descendants eventually decided to spell their name "Trease" and in the 1860s three of these descendants set off for Melbourne and there now seem to be thousands of Treases out in Aus but no Traies ... so far.
Regards,
Bob
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Hi Kerry, Bob, Debs and anyone else out there still interested in the TRAIES family.
I thought I would share a piece of information which I don't think has been mentioned before.
Sometime ago the Criminal Indexes were put on-line, but it was only recently that I did a search on them. I did a simple search just putting in the surname TRAIES. One of the results that came up was the name Emma TRAIES. However, Emma was not the criminal but the victim!
Charles TRAIES and Emma Jane GARDINER (who I think are on the same tree as Kerry) had married in 1851. They had a daughter, Emma Jane TRAIES born in 1859. It is this Emma Jane TRAIES who is on the Criminal Register as just Emma TRAIES. Bob has her listed on his records as marrying William GARDNER in 1880. It seems this was not true!! A warrant for the arrest of William GARDNER had been isssued on September 8 1882.
William GARDNER age 38, Cabdriver, was brought before J BRIDGE esq. at Southwark Police Court. He was charged with marrying Emma TRAIES, his wife being then alive. He was brought before the Recorder and pleaded guilty of Bigamy. He was sent to Wandsworth Prison for 6 Calendar Months.
Ages since I've had anything to write about the TRAIES family. Hope you are all OK.
Bernice
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Hi Bernice,
Nice to hear from you again. That is the first bigamy I've been able to log on the website. Amazes me that he thought he could get away with it. Good to know that research is still turning up information.
I have done nothing further on Traies research for over a year but just over a week ago Sam contacted me with another piece to clip into the Traies jigsaw puzzle. She has found what appears to be the burial of James's wife Ann nee Sutton : -
burial 06Jan1830 St George, Hanover Square. Ann TRAYES of St. Marylebone. age 39 (FindMyPast image)
I will update the Traies section of the website with these two pieces of information shortly. I am still busy on the website. I have started adding data on all Trease/Trayes/Traies/Treays and other spelling variants by location. I have made a start with Cornwall with a parish index but it is a long and somewhat tedious job.
Bob
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Trying to trace a Mary Elizabeth Treais (yes, spelt this way) of St Dominick, Cornwall born around 1874 according to the 1911 census, but can't find her in the 1881 census. I believe the family worked on the estate of Cotehele. Anybody find her?
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Hi Roger,
I have her as the daughter of Thomas and Avice - see attached link : -
http://www.trease.org.uk/trr/trr17r_mp.htm#20t_aw
Hope this helps,
Bob
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:D
Thanks, that's excellent.
If you are interested I have the story of her descendants, including one who has Treais as a middle name (since obviously her descendants have her husbands name).
Roger
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Hello everyone,
I just discovered Henry Traies (b 1820) census for 1891 - maybe you folks found this one anyway, but its listed under Traves.
Cheerio
Sam
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Dear Roger,
Apologies for delay in responding. Yes, thanks for your offer. I'd be really interested to have more information on this family. If there are any parts you are happy for me to put on the website I would be happy to do that.
Regards,
Bob
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Hi Bernice,
Nice to hear from you again. That is the first bigamy I've been able to log on the website. Amazes me that he thought he could get away with it. Good to know that research is still turning up information.
I have done nothing further on Traies research for over a year but just over a week ago Sam contacted me with another piece to clip into the Traies jigsaw puzzle. She has found what appears to be the burial of James's wife Ann nee Sutton : -
burial 06Jan1830 St George, Hanover Square. Ann TRAYES of St. Marylebone. age 39 (FindMyPast image)
I will update the Traies section of the website with these two pieces of information shortly. I am still busy on the website. I have started adding data on all Trease/Trayes/Traies/Treays and other spelling variants by location. I have made a start with Cornwall with a parish index but it is a long and somewhat tedious job.
Bob
Hi all
Haven't been on here for ages, busy with my diploma in Genealogy.
Anyway thanks for Ann's death, one more to add to the tree and one less to worry about!
Kerry
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Hello everyone,
I just discovered Henry Traies (b 1820) census for 1891 - maybe you folks found this one anyway, but its listed under Traves.
Cheerio
Sam
Thanks Sam
got it!
Kerry
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Hi all,
Can anyone help on this American Civil War query?
I've found references to Daniel TREASE in Delafield, Wisconsin. In the 1860 census he appears as Daniel TRIES, age 40, farmhand, unmarried, b. England at Ann GRAHAM's farm. On a June 1863 list of those eligible for military duty he appears at Delafield, Waukesha, WIS as Daniel TREASE, age 40 unmarried labourer, b. England. On a list of Wisconsin Civil War soldiers Daniel Trease is shown as enlisted in the 4th Light Artillery Battery on 09Dec1863 and mustered out at Richmond VA on 03Jul1865. On an 1867 list of deserters he appears under the category of those who were drafted but failed to report as Daniel TREASE Delafield Nov 12, 1863.
It seems likely that after the June 1863 list he was drafted but as he had failed to report by Nov 12 1863, he was classed a deserter but enlisted 4 weeks later on Dec 9 1863.
Does anyone know if despite the late enlistment, he would still be classed a deserter and what penalty he would suffer if the authorities found him?
Bob
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Greetings All from Victoria Australia
I'm only new here [2nd post] so I cant IM anyone yet, but I came across an old lookup request dating back to 2006 from KerryB concerning Elizabeth Michel and Samuel Travies. It also mentioned Henry Michel and a daughter Emma, and all this fits into my family tree dates, places and all, so I think there must be a link.
The only thing that is a little off is that Samuel Traies in the details I have is S. Travis, but its an understandable difference, perhaps down to transcription somewhere along the way.
Well to get to the detail, Elizabeth Michel and Henry Michel are siblings to my 4xGGrandfather.
Either that or someone years ago got the wrong Elizabeth and put her into our family. but as we have some transcripts of letters from her, to her brother I think it is correct.
Was Samuel Traies a tinplate and brazier by any chance? If so then we are on the money for sure.
I have information about Elizabeth's siblings, her parents and her grand parents. [paternal only].
I also have a great deal of information about the decendants of most of her siblings but cetainly at least four of the sibling decendant lines [of 9 that I know of inc Elizabeth] have active decendant lines going.
It would be great to find that your Elizabeth and mine is one and the same.
regards Xavier.
as I am only a 2 post screamer!, I have one to go.
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Hi Xavier and welcome to Rootschat. I don't get on here very much these days so haven't seen you message until now.
Yes Samuel Traies was a Tin plate worker and a Gas meter worker and Brazier and lived in Islington. I never really found very much for Elizabeth or Henry Michel. I see you have seen my thread looking for Elizabeth's birth. It appears her parents were Louis and Elizabeth. I found a marriage for her to a John Roberts in 1822 and he must have died before she married Samuel Traies in 1830 but as yet I haven't managed to confirm John roberts death.
I have 4 children for Samuel and Elizabeth:
Charles
Emma
Jane
Hannah.
I found at least one child for Elizabeth and John, a Caroline Roberts born 1823.
It was suggested to me sometime ago that Louis was French but I've not found any records for him so can't prove that either way.
Let me know if any of this rings bells.
Kerry
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Hi,
I've not been actively researching these Traies families but accidentally stumbled across what I believe to be an 1830 newspaper reference to James Traies. As usual, the name is spelt incorrectly, but location and occupation appear to fit our James. Unfortunately it does not tell us a lot apart from a glimpse of his life outside work. I have transcribed the article here if anyone wishes to read it.
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17s_ec.htm#james1830 (http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17s_ec.htm#james1830)
Incidentally, I have found a huge amount of really interesting family information in the British Newspaper Archives - thoroughly worth a try if you've not done so already.
Regards,
Bob
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Hi Bob
Thanks for the article, very interesting, reading between the lines the Traies must have been fairly well off - 'gold chain and seal'. Checking through the BNA for various of my families is a task I have on my list of things to do during the summer when my MSc dissertation is submitted. I am quite looking forward to being able to get back to my own family history :)
Kerry
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I have just noticed the following reference to James TRAIES in the Apprenticeship tax records: -
3Nov1798 James TRAIES apprenticed to Robt GAUL Tinman of Exeter
It only confirms what we already have found out from other sources but it is nice to get confirmation. 14 was a normal age for apprenticeships I believe so it also points to the baptismal record being the correct one also.
There are also many London property references for James Traies: -
1816-1817 Mile End Old Town renting property from George Archer
1821-1829 St Marylebone renting property from E.B.Portman
Both above can be found on the Ancestry website.
:)
You may already have spotted these. I haven't updated the website yet as I am doing a major review of the early TRAIES families and will update it when I finish hopefully before the end of the year.
Regards to you all,
Bob
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Hi Bob
Thank you for the heads up about the apprenticeship record, will have a look. I have found all the property records in London for James and some for my Samuel also.
Nice to confirm something as you say! :)
Having now finished my MSc at last I am looking forward to having time to spend on my family tree this winter, so beware there maybe Traies queries coming thick and fast!!!
Kerry
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Hi all
Don't know whether anyone is still reading this thread, but just wondering whether anyone got anywhere with research into Elizabeth Michel married to Samuel Traies. Xavier who appeared on here in 2013 never got back to me but recently I have found a number of family trees which fit with some of the information. Louis appeared to have been born in Rouen in 1780 but I don't have any worldwide memberships currently which enable me to check this out.
I have downloaded from Ancestry a number of baptisms for children which appear to fit those cited as siblings for Elizabeth on the trees found on that site. Also some marriages.
Just interested to see if anyone has got anywhere with this bit of the family.
Kerryb :)
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Just thought that I would add to the Trayes family tree.
Zipporah Trayes b. 19/05/1859 d. Isle of Man 1944 m. Richard Callin 07/01/1882. Zipporah and Richard had 10 children:
1.Richard b. 1883 emigrated to Frosburg, Maryland USA in 1901, m. Nellie Arnold and they had 5 daughters and 2 sons. I believe that there are still some of their descendants alive in the USA today.
2. Katie b. 1885 d. 1972 Southport, Lancashire, England. m. Charles Edward Winterbottom 1912. Katie and Charles had 3 children - Mona b. 1913, d. 1993, Richard Gordon b. 1915, d. 2003 and Reginald b 1920, d. 1980. Richard m. Ada Holmes 1941 and they had 3 children: Lynda Carolyn b. 1943, Andrew Gordon b. 1948 and Michael Robert b. 1951. Additionally, Katie had a son Tom b. 1909 d. 1993 Isle of Man - father unknown. I believe that Tom's descendants still live in the Isle of Man.
3. Millicent b. 1887 d. 1947.
4. Gertrude b. 1889
5. Eunice b. 1891
6. Bessie b. 1894 d. 1951
7. Alured b. 1897
8. Amy b. 1899 d. 1990
9. Lily b. 1908 d. 1992
10. Hilda Trayes Callin b. 1905 d. 1958
Hope this helps and big thanks to all those who have contributed to the Trayes family tree thus far.
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Hi Kerry & Mike,
Apologies for delay. Am still very interested in this thread.
Kerry. Would be happy to undertake more research. Have a little bit of time at present. Have numerous updates to make to the Traies section of the website. One that might be of interest is Jame's great uncle William. There is a portait on the www : -
http://www.thepcf.org.uk/artdetective/propose-a-discussion/painting/william-traies-of-crediton-71006
unlikely to be father of William Traies the artist because he was under 40 when the artist died. Pretty sure it is the painting referenced in this Will
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txb/txb17w_mb_will.htm
"to my said son John Traies the use but not the absolute property of my portrait during his life"..
Many thanks, Mike, for the updates to the IOM families - will add them to the website if that is OK with you. Will be back with another post soon.
Regards,
Bob
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OOH thanks Bob, that is very interesting and always like to 'see' one of the forebears! I'm a bit confused about the picture's title though, it says father of the artist, but the artist is called Abbott?
I look forward to seeing what else you add to your website. I had a look through it the other day and started to find bits I hadn't seen before.
As to the Michel family, I have had some information (from the ancestry trees) about a couple of the son's who emigrated checked out by rootschatters in Oz and NZ and all seems correct so am going to work through the other children.
It would appear that although Louis's wife was Elizabeth Watts, an English sounding name, she was born in France too. I am going to try to find baptisms for Louis and Elizabeth both in France over the summer.
Kerry
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Apologies for confusion, I believe the portrait should be entitled William Traies of Crediton father of William Traies the artist of Crediton. The artist Lemuel Francis Abbott, per Wikipedia, lived from 1760 to 1803 (5/12/1802) and painted notable people of his era Nelson, Herschel, Cowper, Matthew Bolton & John Wilkinson, the industrialists etc. He lived in London and was declared insane in 1798 so would probably not have received many commissions after that. You'd think he would have been expensive to hire. William Traies the artist's dad lived from 1764 - 1849 and was not a rich man. In 1798 would have been only 34. Portrait seems of an older man than that. As William Traies the cordwainer was a wealthy man, born in 1728, and specifically mentioned his portrait in his Will I think it more likely that he is the subject of the portrait. I've been meaning to contact the museum and find out what facts they have got like provenance etc. - the fact they are seeking information suggests they may be themselves unsure. William the cordwainer's brother, John Traies the cordwainer, appointed another London portrait artist, Abraham Wivell, as an executor of his Will so there may be another connection there.
I will revisit the branch of the family you are researching and see what I can turn up. Be in contact again after I've done that.
Good to contact again - many happy memories of this thread - still find useful information on it when I revisit it.
Regards,
Bob
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I found the Trease family tree website. I believe my family is descended from a Trayes on the Research tab.
I believe I can fill the gap after 1841 for Mary Trayes.
Mary Trayes (1814 - born a twin), daughter of William and Elizabeth Trayes nee Bate, grdaughter of John and Margaret Trayes nee Lang.
Mary married John Runnalls. The 1841 Census (Cornwall, England) lists John as a shoemaker and they have 3 children, Jane, John and Elizabeth.
The 1851 Census (Canada West) lists John as Ronalds. He is a shoemaker, has a wife Mary and his 3 oldest children are Jane, John and Elizabeth. The ages match.
The 1861 Census (Canada West) lists John and family once again as Runnalls. He is now a farmer.
Several of Mary's children have documents listing their mother as Mary Trayes.
Mary died in Ontario and is buried in St. George's Anglican Church Cemetery, Grafton.
While I believe I have the right Trayes family now to follow up on I am unsure about going back with the Runnalls.
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Thanks for your message. Pleased that this Rootschat thread together with the website was of some use. The website contains the results of years of research including much that was kindly contributed via Rootschat members - quite a bit on this thread alone!
Do you know John RUNNALLS date of birth? For the purpose of the UK 1841 census, ages over 15 were rounded down to the nearest 5 years so John's age of 35 should, strictly speaking, be in the range 35 to 39 but it is often wrong. The Canadian census return and death record may help identify his correct age. There are quite a lot of the RUNNALLS family in the St Breward area of Cornwall including at least one other shoemaker.
Regards, Bob
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For John Runnalls
From transcribed list of births/baptisms from St. Brewards Parish Clerk Office - Feb. 13, 1809 mother Jane, father John
1841 Cornwall age 30
1851 (which was actually taken in January of 1852) Northumberland, Canada West age 42
1861 Northumberland, Canada West age 51
1871 Northumberland County Ontario age 64
Death record January 10, 1873 age 67 headstone January 10, 1873 age 68
The Canadian records are definitely all the same family - other family records confirm information and several family members are buried together.
I found a St. Breward record for John Runnalls b 1804 mother Ann, but he may have died in St. Breward at age 80 in 1884.
I found a St. Breward record for John Runnalls b 1811 parents Robert and Elizabeth but he appears to have died at age 4 in 1815.
I found a St. Breward record for John Runnalls b 1809 - I'm thinking maybe he is the one I want. It seems it might fit the 1841 - 61 Census records .... he seems to have added years toward the end of his life :)
The added years toward the end of his life have made me hesitant to follow the 1809 John.
Thanks for your response, I appreciate any advice you could give me on following the St. Breward Runnalls.
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Sometimes there is a pattern in the naming of children after parents, grandparents etc. Might provide a pointer but not proof. The St Breward baptisms register seems missing for the years we want which may mess up investigating naming patterns for children. I'll see if I can come up with some other ideas and get back to you.
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All I can suggest is to investigate the family of John & Jane and look for evidence to support or disprove that this John is the right one. Using the Cornwall OPC database (which lacks Baptisms & Burials 1833 - 1849, & marriages 1767 - 1807) and the Cornwall on-line census transcriptions we can get off to a quick start with : -
Baptisms of John & Jane's children in St Breward : -
1807 William 1809 John 1811 Archelaus 1813 Mary 1816 Ann 1818 Elizabeth
1821 Thomas 1823 Susanna 1827 Philippa
From 1813 onward John's occupation is shown as Carpenter and from 1816 his residence as "Irish".
A later baptism of a s/o a John & Jane gives: -
? 1832 William Labourer Residence: Rowe
I think these are the parents in the 1841 Census. Irish 1, St Breward
John 60 Carpenter b. CON
Jane 50 b. CON
Hercules 26 b. CON (Archelaus?)
Susan 18 b. CON
Philippa 14 b. CON
Brother Archelaus, what a great name for researchers!, appears to have married elsewhere but was buried in St Breward : -
m. 22Sep1849 Bolventor. Archelaus Hoskin RUNNELLS, Carpenter full age, signs, and Jenefer BRAY of Codda, marks
i. 29Oct1894 St Breward. Archelaus Hoskin RUNNALLS age 84 of Treworgie, Blisland.
The middle name of HOSKIN almost certainly refers to a close relative possibly his mother. If that reoccurs in any of John's Canadian family that could be a strong indication of Archelaus being closely related to John.
I'll continue "Digging around" and see what I can come up with.
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The name Archelaus is so unusual. I've just found the following which I think I think must be connected.
1802 Administration of Archelaus HOSKEN yeoman of St Breward (Cornwall Record Office AP/H/7109)
1887 Will of Archelaus RUNNALLS of Blisland (Cornwall Records Office PT/14/2/56)
The last is almost certainly the Archelaus who was buried St Breward 1894. 1887 may be the date he made his Will.
My hunch is that June the mother of Archelaus and wife of John RUNNALLS could be a daughter of Archelaus HOSKEN of St Breward. It is a shame he died without leaving a Will (purely an administration) and before his possible daughter's likely marriage date of 1806/7 as a Will may have named her and possibly children as beneficiaries. Still - keep looking.
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Thanks, that's great information for me to work on.
Ellen Runnalls, Mary's daughter, is my direct ancestor. She married a McMurray and I have been following that line with considerable success. I have not run across a Hoskin, but I haven't gone sideways from Ellen other than to know her brothers' and sisters' names - and we found most of their gravesites. I will investigate her siblings records and see what I can turn up.
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I spotted the following St Breward records: -
c. 15May1741 St Breward. Hercules HOSKYN s/o John & Jane
c. 17Aug1783 St Breward. Jane HOSKEN d/o Hercules and Philippa
Apparently Archelaus/Hercules were interchangeable at that time. Jane's age when William RUNNALS was baptised would have been about 24 so she was the appropriate age for marriage.
The circumstantial evidence that Jane HOSKEN c. 1783 is the mother Jane of John & Jane RUNNALLS is quite good: -
They named a son Archelaus Hosken RUNNALS after her father and a daughter Philippa possibly after her mother. She was the right age for marriage.
Interestingly I have not found any other baptisms for Hercules and Philippa so she may have been their only daughter.
I've tracked down all the census returns for Archelaus RUNNALLS until his death - they are easily found on the Cornwall On-Line Census database which covers until 1891 and has free searchable access but you can't see the original entries.
I'll continue to have a look at the other sons/daughters to see if we can glean any other information about the family.
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I have added to the website some data about the Runnalls family. You can find on this link: -
http://www.trease.org.uk/trr/trr15j_fb.htm#19jr_m (http://www.trease.org.uk/trr/trr15j_fb.htm#19jr_m)
There is no doubt in my mind that you have found the correct parents. John's brother Thomas seems to have emigrated to the same area of Canada before John, and sister Philippa also seems to have emigrated in the 1840s. Philipppa's son Charles Wilton witnesses the marriage of one of Thomas's daughters. The ages of Thomas and Philippa exactly match the baptism dates. Thomas's daughter even names one of her sons Archelaus. John Runnalls sells some land to Thomas Runnalls in the 1850s etc etc.
I notice that research exists for some Canadian families descended from John's Runnalls sister Philippa so it may be beneficial for you to contact them. It is possible worth opening another Rootschat thread to share data with the other RUNNALLS researchers. There may well be other siblings of John's who also emigrated - I certainly haven't looked that far.
Many thanks for letting me know what happened to Mary Trays. If there is other information about her that I could have that is not on the website I would appreciate it.
Many thanks, Bob
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Thanks for your help, I'll be sure to follow up on the Runnalls.
Mary Trayes
1851 Census Canada West Northumberland County District Hamilton surname written Ronalds
1861 Census Canada West Northumberland County District Hamilton surname Runnalls
1871 Census Canada Ontario Northumberland West Haldimand surname Runnalls
1881 Census Canada Ontario Northumberland West Haldimand surname Reynolds
1887 death July 1 Haldimand
her children
Elizabeth 1835 b St.Breward
Jane 1838 b St. Breward
John 1841 b St. Breward d Cobourg 11 Feb 1899 informant George Lumley
William 1845 b WC (Canada West) d 1918
Ellen 1846 b Cobourg Canada West m Joseph McMurray (my 2nd grgndfather) 18 Oct 1870 Grafton Ont.
her marriage records lists John and Mary Reynolds as parents, witnesses are Mary Jane
McMurray (Joseph's sister or sister in law) and Thomas Bell (Joseph's brothers Arthur and
James marry Bell sisters Elizabeth and Mary Jane) d 24 December 1906 Haldimand Township
Ann 1848 b WC m Erastus Barrett 11 July 1873 witnesses Ester Eddy, (Joseph McMurray's sister Ellen
marries Eli Eddy), Frederick Runnalls - she is listed as Annie, d 22 March 1937 name on
death record and headstone is Mary Ann parents John Runnalls, Mary Trays informant
daughter Mrs. D Church
Frederick 1851 b WC
Matilda 1855 b Cobourg Canada West m Thomas Coffey 10 July 1889 residence listed as Vernonville
(the McMurrays settled in Vernonville) witness Matilda Lumley - Matilda's daughter Mary
marries Gordon McDonald the brother of Ellen's son Frederick's wife - great grandpa Fred's
cousin married his brother in law :) - boatload of names tying families together on that
record)
Lucinda 1858 b WC 20 May, m Peter Louks of Vernonville Dec 1999 (when she was 41), married in
Brighton Township of Hamilton, d 23 January 1937 Dorset, Haliburton parents listed as
John Runnalls Mary Trays informant neice DW Church, burial Paint Lake Cemetery
Mary is buried in St. George's Anglican Church Cemetery in Grafton (along Lake Ontario, just east of Cobourg, west of Colborne and Brighton, south of Vernonville). It is one of the oldest monuments in the cemetery and is directly behind the church. The headstone is for John Runnalls and wife Mary. Beside this monument is one for her sons John and William and beside that Thomas Coffey and Matilda.
I have found the information for Ellen's siblings incidentally as I researched her. I will now go back and see what else I can find - perhaps it will lead to some Runnalls/Hoskins clues.
Looking through the Trease website has helped me tremendously. It has given me incite on how I might look for information in other sources (besides census, birth, death records), pay more attention to witnesses, informants and such and track related and neighbor families more thoroughly. (Although finding Eddys, McMurrays and Broomfields living side by side for 4 decades and intermarrying had me thinking along those lines :) I particularly liked reading the reasoning/proofs for assumptions - I'm going to start listing the same in my notes. I find when I go back I often forget why I listed what I did and where I got the proofs and have to take the time to search my notes and line it all back up again before I go forward.
I have photos of the monuments in St. George's Cemetery, but don't know how to share them here.
I will start a Runnalls thread now that I know a little more about how to navigate here.
Thanks again for all your help. I hope I have helped to fill a small space in your research. We are all very proud here to have roots in Cornwall and have a connection to the Trayes family.
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Thank you for all your help in identifying what became of Mary. I've added it to the website. Pleased to have also been of some help to you. You are right about Cornwall - I think it the most characterful part of Southern England. Wish you every luck with your future research.
Kind regards, Bob
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For anyone interested in the Samuel TRAIES & Wilmet BOWDEN families I have updated that part of the TRAIES tree and filled in most but not all of the gaps. Still can't match Deb at filling in the gaps. This part of the tree includes the artist William TRAIES. I found another artist - his granddaughter, daughter of his daughter Maria RUDGE who seems to have married in Mauritius or somewhere strange where records are difficult to access.
William's father worked for a local Crediton builder John RAWL who kept a diary which makes many references to "TRAISE" including where he worked on what days and how much he paid him - amazing what material is available to us family historians. The updated tree is on this link
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt16s_wb.htm (http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt16s_wb.htm)
PS Tried to sort out the early Crediton TRAIES family tree. It is possibly clearer than it was but it is still confusing and unfortunately wrong. I have ended up with burials of John & Sarah TRAIES but haven't got any TRAIES's left to whom to attribute them.
Hope everyone is keeping well. For me, it is that time of year when gardening beckons.
Regards,
Bob
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Hi Bob
Haven't been here for a while but as usual found my way back to the Traies family.
I have been wandering around your site for hours haha ... and Came to the same conclusions you did re: Samuel T who married Wilmot Bawden. That baptism of 1726 where Sam is s/o Sam and Sarah could be incorrect as there doesn't seem to be any others being born to that couple..... OR was there another married Samuel in Crediton at the same time?
Anyway I wanted to know who John Traies b 1762 living in Crediton belongs to? On IGI they have him as s/o William and Mary. In 1841 he is transcribed as John Traces, 79, shoemaker living with Elizabeth A Traies 72. Both born in county.
BTW there is also a William "Traces" b 1794 also living on the same street ...High Street. His age is hard to read ...to me it looks like he's 77 so bc 1764.
Could John (1762) possibly be the son of William (s/o Samuel and Elizabeth Creese) who was mentioned in the Will but no baptism has been found.
OR is John b 1762 s/o William and Mary Bond OR s/o John Traies (m1760 Mary Porter) who became a shoemaker in Soho, London.
Well I've certainly entertained myself this afternoon ;D
Best regards
Deb
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Dear Deb,
Its great to have your input on this brain numbing family tree. I will get back to you with a more detailed reply but for a start .. I got so stuck on this that I went back and transcribed some of the early Crediton parish registers with different results from what I had from other sources. I had a go at putting my findings on the website at this location : -[url]http://www.trease.org.uk/trr/trr_dev.htm#c_cre/url]
Interestingly I could not find a 1760 baptism that matched the one I had from early researchers of a John Traies s/o William & Mary born 14Sep1760 baptised 12Nov1760. This purported to be copied from a Devon & Cornwall record society (DCRS) transcript. I can't believe they would make a mistake and concluded that the entry had been mistranscribed by the early Trease researcher. The entry I found was clearly for a John Traies s/o Samuel & Wilmet baptised 01Oct1760. Also none of the entries I transcribed had birth dates.
Similarly I inspected the William Traces 1841 census return. He is almost certainly the William TRAIES mason whose Will refers to the block of houses burnt down that he rebuilt and the persons living adjacent to him match the names of the persons living in his rented out rebuilt houses. I have put details of this on the website at this location
[url]http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt16s_wb.htm#17w_mh/url]
I am puzzled why I have not confirmed the IGI entries for 1762 when I reinspected the Crediton parish registers and will get back to you with some more observations on this and other matters later. Strangely I found a new puzzling entry re a John Traies shoemaker in Rochdale yesterday and also that John s/o William b 1724 in St Luke, Chelsea enlisted in the army in Manchester another puzzle, and both up North a bit.
Bob
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Dear Deb,
I think the 1762 baptism of John s/o William & Mary is correct. I can’t inspect the parish register images on-line any longer but believe I ticked the IGI transcript on my list when I found it on the register but did not bother with checking/correcting any spelling differences. I reckon he is the son of William and Mary BOND. John married Elizabeth KERSLAKE and the KERSLAKE family feature in a Codicil to the Will of William TRAIES m. Mary BOND & d.1812. Link : -
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txb/txb17w_mb_will.htm (http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txb/txb17w_mb_will.htm)
I think I had a “senior moment” when I sent my reply yesterday. Anyway, the son of William born 1724 St Luke was James not John. He appears on this link: -
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17s_ec.htm (http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17s_ec.htm)
The other record to which I referred was : -
1850 c. 10Mar1850 Rochdale. James Thomas TRAIES s/o John & Betty TRAIES, Shoemaker (ANC img)
I think he is related to the Crediton family but can’t see how at the moment, maybe one of them went "up North" and disappears off the current trees.
There are two burials that I can’t fit into the Traies Crediton tree are : -
1781 i. 3Jun1781 Sarah TRAIES (DCRS, FindMyPast img x 2)
1782 i. 29Dec1782 John TRAIES (DCRS)
If they are husband and wife, maybe John is s/o Samuel & Elizabeth c. 1718 (who has no burial record associated with him) and the John who married Sarah Ellacott in 1754 (who similarly has no death record associated with her). The drawback is that William Traies’s 1770 will has the succession as William s/o Samuel and then Samuel s/o Samuel and makes no mention of John. If John & Sarah had no surviving children and Sarah could produce no more children this may account for why William omitted him from the Will entirely. I have not listed this possibility on the website - can’t think why - might simply have overlooked it.
Kind regards,
Bob.
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Ho Bob,
I'm trying to get a grip on all of these people.
So William b 1763, mason is s/o Samuel and Wilmot Bawden and
John b 1762 is s/o William and Mary Bond
Are the father's Samuel and William related?
added .... I can't find the record of James Thomas Traies s/o John and Betty. What year was he born?
Deb
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Dear Deb,
Samuel married Wilmot Bawden in 1749 and was the son of Samuel who married Elizabeth Creese in 1717.
William married Mary Bond in 1759 and was the son of John who married Sarah Pidlar in 1724.
His father John was the brother of Samuel who married Elizabeth Creese in 1717.
So the fathers Samuel and William were related as first cousins.
The James Thomas TRAIES appears on Free BMD:
b. TRAVIS James Thomas (Rochdale RD Jul-Aug-Sep 1850 V21 p740)
in which case his parents' marriage appears to be: -
m. John TRAVIS & Betty COCKROFT (Rochdale RD Oct-Nov-Dec 1842 V21 p466)
The baptismal entry was indexed TRAIES on Ancestry and I inspected the original handwritten entry. Most of the Manchester area entries indexed TRAIES on Ancestry appeared to be TRAVIS on inspection but I thought this one was TRAIES - I am going to have to look at it again - it looks like another transcription error - in which case apologies for wasting time.
I’ll get back on this when I have investigated it more thoroughly.
Bob.
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researching Joan Pomeroy daughter of Roger of Sandridge
lI was looking at Elias Wills father of Roger's wifes Joan
You dont have her mother' s Joan Dawbyn BM
Simple search OLPC/Cornwall
Baptism 20 June 1591 Landrake - Joane daughter of Nicolas DAWBYN
Marriage 1 Joan Dawbyn on 14-Feb 1614 at St Germans, to William BODY- no children found in Cornwall
Marriage 2 Elias Wills Esq to Johanna BODY on 2 Jul 1616 at Parish St Stephens by Saltash
8 children
Marriage 3 Thomas Wyvell by Exeter Cathedral licence (FindMyPast) 15 Dec 1627
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Thanks for that. It opens up a new line of research, when I've time. William BODDY's will was proved on 7th Jan 1617 and is in the National Archives ref PROB 11/129/14. Elias and Joan weren't happy about it and a court case ensued and is also in National Archives WILLS v SPRYE (C/327/68) - Elias and Joan WILLS v. Hugh SPRYE and others re Personal Estate of William BODY but documents not available on-line. I'll dig around a bit more and update that section of the website. If you find out any more please let me know and I'll do the same. I notice an Elizabeth BODY, wife of William, died on 04Apr1613, possibly an earlier wife of the same William possibly nee SPRY I guess. Once again many thanks,
Bob
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Thanks Bob.
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Couch Jackman
re Summary of the The Will of Jane TOSER, widow of Callington, 1803
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17w_mb.htm
William Couch JACKMAN bap St Thomas by Launceston (Cornwall) 15 Jun 1764
son of John JAKEMAN = Margery COUCH married South Petherwin (Cornwall) 6 Dec 1756 FindMyPast
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Dear Peter,
Thankyou very much for the two pieces of information. They proved to be the key that unlocked the identities of the numerous beneficiaries of Jane's Will. Please also accept my humble apologies for being so long in getting back to thank you. I've now updated my website
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt17w_mb.htm#jane_toser_1803
with several pages of information about the numerous beneficiaries. Jane seems to have been very methodical about her Will. One question you may be able to answer is - Do you know the parents of John JAKEMAN of St Thomas by Launceston who married 06Dec1756 at South Petherwin? Was it John JAKEMAN & Willmot RAWLINGS? - that echoes the marriage of Elizabeth FOSS nee COUCH to William RAWLING on 21Apr1756. I've found several deaths of John JACKMANS around 1735- 1737 in the area and can't work out which John has died. The Will of John JACKMAN of St Thomas by Launceston - probate 1737 may solve it for me.
Once again, many thanks.
Bob
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Dear Bob,
Thanks for all your work on [www.trease.org.uk].
I am looking at the children of George Popman/Popham & Elizabeth Bolt who were baptised in Hittisleigh and Drewsteignton between 1784 and 1807.
One of them is the Ann Popham who married John Traies in Crediton in 1814.
Your details are at [http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txt16s_wb.htm#18j_ap].
I have found a probate granted in 1863 to George Traies regarding his mother Ann Tremlett who died on 11th December 1862 at his home in Cripplegate. That would make her death the one registered in East London.
Dan
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Dear Dan,
Thank you very much for your kind words and the information which I’ve now included on the website. That confirms beyond any doubt the scenario of the two families of John Traies. Although not obvious from the family tree, John’s uncle William (m. Mary Hooper) was also a mason and father of William TRAIES a moderately well known artist of the time. Incidentally do you have the date of Ann's baptism? - she looks like one of the oldest of their family.
Once again, many thanks,
Bob
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You are very welcome.
The Hittisleigh Baptism Register for 1785 reads 'Ann the daughter of George and Elizabeth Popham(sic) August the 16th'. She was the second of ten and the records suggests to me that they were all probably born in Drewsteignton.
It looks like she left the employ of Grace Emes when her daughter Jane Harris Emes married Edward Bowring Stephens in Crediton in 1845. They are the two Ann is working for in the 1841 Census and they can be found together in St Georges Hanover Square in the 1851 Census. She must have worked for them since her marriage in 1814 to have accrued 25 years service by 1839. That alone suggests that she is very unlikely to have been the mother of the Mary Ann baptised in 1819 which further supports your belief in John having set up a second home with another Ann in London.
Has anyone seen the details of Ann's marriage to James Tremlett? It is not in the Crediton Church registers, but it would be nice to confirm their parents. Also, was Mary Ann Langley's father Nathaniel LANGLEY if she was a widow?
Dan
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Dear Dan,
Again many thanks for the information. It all helps build up a picture of the lives of these distant relatives whose lives would otherwise be simply forgotten. The reason for Ann leaving her long employment with Grace makes sense - it must have been a stressful time for her but I feel that Grace would have treated her well - she must almost have become part of the family.
It is several years since I trawled through Ancestry and FindMyPast picking up all Devon references I could find to the TREASE surname and derivatives like TRAIES. The surname was often recorded and transcribed incorrectly so I searched for common errors but I failed to pick up Ann TRAIES marriage in the parish registers even though her name is correctly recorded in the central marriage register. At least we know it is a parish in the Crediton Registration District and it is the 1843/44 Winter period.
I’ll have another look to see if I can find it and I’ll also check the image of the John TRAIS/Mary Ann LANGLEY 1852 marriage as I may have copied the record incorrectly.
Regards,
Bob
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found this
WYVELL, Thomas (-d.1632), of Wyvellscombe, St. Stephen-by-Saltash, Cornw.
MP SALTASH 1604
?o.s. of Oliver Wyvell of Marystow, Devon by his wife Alice Giggord da. of Thomas Gifford of Halsbury, Parkham, Devon.
married (1) by 1579, Thomasin Whitford (bur. 9 May 1598), da. of John Whitford of Sconner, Sheviock, Cornw., 1da. d.v.p.;
(2) 18 Dec. 1628, Joan Dawbyn possibly da. of Nicholas Dawbyn of Landrake, Cornw (admon. 15 May 1667) widow of William Body (admon. 7 Jan. 1617) of Pardaberry, St. Germans, Cornw & widow of Elias Wills (admon. 3 July 1626) of St. Stephen-by-Saltash
Daughter Joan Willis Wyvell married Roger Pomeroy of Brixham
more on Thomas in Parliamentary Histories
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Thanks for the info. I need to study it a bit more but I know for certain that I did not have the Roger Pomeroy/Wills Brixham marriage. Since this thread began I have added more information on Thomas Wyvell to the trease website here
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txt/txw00.htm#10t_tw
I may post more after I've studied the information you sent more. If I find any further references to Pomeroy or other relevant families I'll add them to this thread. Many thanks, Bob
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Roger Pomeroy of Brixham his ancestry here on my website
https://sites.google.com/site/pomeroytwigs2/sir-thomas-pomeroy-1547
1539 Baron Thomas Pomeroy Esq., organised the marriage of his younger brother Hugh of Tregony and the marriage settlement was drafted by Sir John Russell.
Hugh Pomeroy wife was to be Johan Borman or Bowerman and niece to Sir John. This settlement served as an entail which saved Tregony and Stockleigh Pomeroy from the sale of 1547 coming into play many years later, bringing Tregony back into the hands of Roger Pomeroy, of Sandridge
Roger Pomeroy b 1629 married Jane Wyvell /Willis dau of Joan wife of Elias Wyvell of Saltash who left Joan and her children 40/- in her will-
Mentioned in the 1667 Will of JOAN WYVELL widow of Egloskerry, are the grandchildren of Joan Wyvell :- Ellias Pomeroy, Joane Pomeroy , Elizabeth Pomeroy
Date & place of marriage has not been found either in FindMyPast or in Cornwall OPC or in Visiations
However the Civil War might account for this
Mr Roger Pomeroy FindMyPast & the Parish Register
Mr Roger Pomeroy Bb Baptism 20 Sep 1629 Stoke Gabriel
Entry includes - buried 23 July 1708 in Brixham
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Hi Bob,
I am writing about your wonderful research into the Trease family history, especially managing the website. I have been researching on and off for about 25 years and I think that I came across the Trease website about 10 years ago.
My great grandmother was Daisy Trayes Halliday (1874-1955), the daughter of Thomas Halliday and Alice Webb. Alice Webb was born in Bath Somerset in 1833 and died in Victoria, Australia in 1887. Her parents were William Webb (1808-1872) and Eliza Trayes (abt 1809-1854), married Walcot Somerset on 10 Apr 1831. Both died in Victoria. I see that you have some details on Eliza on your website and that you are not sure where Eliza fits into the main Trease family. I have a copy of Eliza’s death certificate which states her parents as John Trayes and Elizabeth Trayes. The informant on the death certificate was not a family member (that I am aware of), most likely a local ‘agent’ in the area who recorded the details. Death certificates are notorious for errors! So I am keeping an open mind about the accuracy of the information.
Over the last couple of days I found on the FamilySearch website an entry for an Eliza Trays – baptised on 26 Jul 1808, at Walcot St Swithin, Somerset, England, parents William Trays and Elizabeth. A search of the register index on Ancestry found no details, but a looking through the digitised pages on Ancestry I found the actual entry. Ancestry has interpreted the record as “Eliza Frays”. It could go either way!
Further searching unearthed the baptism of a Jane Trayes – 6 Jan 1805 Bath St James Somerset, appears to be a Bishop’s transcript, parents William Trayes and Elizabeth. Indexed and image on Ancestry. Also a marriage between William Treays and Elizabeth Moore on 11 Apr 1802 in Bath Somerset. I could only find the index entry on FamilySearch, not on Ancestry. The church was listed as Bath St James, but also as “SS Peter & Paul”, so a little confusing. I looked for the digitized images on Ancestry but the marriage registers don’t appear to be in the Ancestry records.
I did a brief search in your website but couldn’t link to Jane or William and Elizabeth Moore. I will keep searching, but I thought that you may find the above of interest to help prove or disprove the link between your Trease family and Eliza Trayes.
King regards,
Mark Smith
Canberra, Australia
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The St James marriage register is on Ancestry. William Treays and ElizabethMoore, at https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60858/images/42886_1831109331_1253-00305
You may find the FreeREG site useful. It includes all surviving pre-1837 parish registers from the Bath area and, although not perfect, is usually more accurate than Ancestry. As well as the records you've found they also show a burial for a child Jane Troys in March 1805.
There is also a Mary Trais, aged 60, from St James but buried at the Workhouse in May 1809. (This one Ancestry have got right but FreeREG has "Travis".)
David
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I have looked at the trease references for Bristol link below: -[url]http://www.trease.org.uk/trr/trr_ewe.htm#bat_rd/url]
William had two daughter by Elizabeth Moore - Jane bap Jan1805 bur Mar1805 and Eliza bap 1808.
The second daughter married William WEBB on 10thApr1831. I need to add this marriage to the references. Fairly sure this was Eliza d/o Elizabeth Moore as one witness to her marriage was Mary Ann MOORE. I think I know who the father of Eliza was. I just need to check and will get back to you - if I am right there could be a fascinating story there. FRAYS is such a common transcription error for TRAYS that I always do an alternative search for the surname with an F as well as a T. Thank you ever so much for your information. I think it unravels part of the family tree. We may be distant rellies!
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Hi David,
Thanks for that, it makes things a bit clearer. I think that every time I conduct a records search I get a different result, even when I think that I have used the same search parameters!
Hi Bob,
I am glad that info was of some use and look forward to seeing how Eliza fits in to the whole, huge, Trease tree. If I can help let me know.
Mark
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Although Eliza’s parents can’t be found in Bath after her baptism, she appears to marry 20 years later in the same parish and a relative of her mother appears to be a witness. If her mother died while Eliza was a baby, her mother’s relatives may have looked after her. I think her father may be the following William.
http://www.trease.org.uk/trt/trt17w_gg.htm#18w_sa (http://www.trease.org.uk/trt/trt17w_gg.htm#18w_sa)
If so, Eliza’s mother may have died soon after Eliza’s birth and possibly before her baptism. After 1833 Eliza went to live in London a short walking distance from where the above mentioned William lived.
I can't find a burial for Eliza TREAYS - an Eliza MOORE was buried on 23Mar1809 Walcot. Have you any info on the MOORE family?
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Hi Bob,
I quite like your thoughts that Elizabeth Moore may have been this particular William’s first wife. It all seems to fit, especially considering that Eliza and William Webb moved to London very close to William (her possible father).
I have no more info on the Moore family as yet. I only started down this path last week when I found the possible baptism of Eliza Trays.
I will PM you shortly.
Mark
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Recently found the Trease Family History webpage and this and it's been very helpful. I'm a direct descendant of Philippa Runnalls and Charles Wilton in Canada. The Wilton's have been good at recording their information but had no Runnalls information. Last summer visiting several cemeteries found multiple Runnalls tombstones was able to start putting the pieces together. The information here has confirmed that I was on the right track.
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AWilton, glad it was found helpful!
Gardener Bob if you are still around, you might be interested to know I had a curious thing happen a while ago. I had friends who moved from Surrey to Cornwall a couple of years ago. We are going to visit them sometime soon. Got my Traies research out back in the winter taking my tree back with the help of your website and I got tentatively back to Michael Trease and Tamsin Netherton and was reading your information about his property and I read Pattacott Farm and stopped. 'Well that sounds familiar!' I said. Got the map out and fell off my chair! Our friends have moved to a property on Pattacott Farm! I messaged my friend and she was as shocked as I was. She's going to dig out the deeds and whatever else they have when we go. I don't believe the farmhouse is the same building Michael lived in but even so.
Kerry
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Doing some exploring I believe I have found the burial sites for two of the daughters of Joseph Treys and Elizabeth Brown. Elizabeth Trayes and her husband William Davey and Mary Trayes and her husband Philip May are both listed on the tree as having immigrated to Canada but location and years of death are not included. Going through the Centreton Cemetery in Centreton, Ontario, Canada have found tombstones where the names and birth years match. Any records for that time would show location as Haldimand, Northumberland, Ontario, Canada as the general area.
To help confirm Mary Trayes and John Runnalls their aunt and uncle are buried in Grafton, Ontario which is about 10 minutes away. John Runnalls sister Philipa Runnalls Wilton is also buried in Centreton. I suspect that William Davey is related to the numerous Davey's in the area just haven't confirmed how.