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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Tree Hunter on Sunday 23 March 08 13:04 GMT (UK)
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Hi All
For a few years now my family have been trying to find out about the Taylor Family with no movement in getting any further than gossip amongst ourselves
so I'm hoping with a lot of help from you, you can help us.
I've talked to the only 3 surviving relatives about their father and Grandfather and this (I think) is every thing we know
Jabez Taylor (their father) married Emily Dunn on the 18th August 1902 in Fulham, London, aged 21 and was a crater, Father John Taylor, Crater ( I have the marriage Cert)
Picture of the Grave, which reads as follows
Atherlia Taylor (their Grandmother) who died 25th June 1902 aged 64
Emily Taylor (their mother) who passed away 2nd November 1953 aged 72
Jabez Taylor (their Father) wife of the above who passed away 11th Feb 1965 aged 86
This is what my Great Aunts tell me
Jabez Taylor came from Kent because they all went hop picking with him when they were little, and he took them to Kent to live with relatives of his, in tents and caravans, One year he lost a lot of relatives, when a lot of caravans went over the edge of the road killing the people inside,
He took his mothers name because of some feud in the family
His fathers name was Samuel Smith who they think was a gardener and when he died was buried in the Manor House were he worked.
I dont know why he would say on his marriage Cert his father was John Taylor if he knew it was Sam Smith, I cant find a Birth Cert for him without knowing the father, I can find nothing on his mother Atherlia, even in the 1901 Census, although she died in 1902, One of my Great Aunts thinks that he was born in the Croydon area, was always told that the Smiths were relatives.
Any help would be greatfully received, and hopefully one day we could solve this mystery
Thanks again
John
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Hi
have you sent for Atherlia s death cert it should say who reged the death and may have her husbands name on it which would give you something to work from,
Deaths Jun 1902
Taylor Atherlia 57 Brentford 3a 102
Matilda
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Thanks Matilda
I think your right, I will order her Death Cert
Thanks again
John
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God you weren't kidding about them not being on any censuses. ???
Can you find Jabez or Sam Smith on anything?
I see Atherlia was born in 1845 and died in Brentford but noting else. So was Taylor her maiden name?
If you get death certificate and her husband died before her it might refer to her as "widow of..." which might help narrow the search a bit.
Perhaps John Taylor was an alias of Sam Smith or maybe he put a false name if the family feud was bad enough. :-\
Was it the Hartlake tragedy that Jabez's family died in?
I have found a Thomas Taylor aged just 4 years old when he drowned that day. He was the son of Thomas Taylor, a labourer.
Thomas Taylor also died that day aged 38 as well as Sarah Taylor aged 55.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help. :-\
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According to Jabez TAYLOR's WW1 army pension/service records he was born in Kensington and aged 34 years and 6 months in September 1914.
Casalguidi :)
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Is this Athaliah ???
1861
covered cart & tent, Hammersmith, Middlesex
Jeremiah TAYLOR head mar 47 basket maker b.Watford Herts
Augusta wife 44 b.High Wycombe Bucks
Athaliah dau 19 b.Moulsey Surrey
Mininny? dau 10 b.T...dley? nr Hadlow Kent
Christopher son 6 b.Wandsworth
Eda dau 3 b.Kensington Middlesex
Georgiana dau 2 b.Hammersmith Middlesex
RG9/26 folio 140 page 54
Perhaps the family can be followed forwards ie. I have spotted Christopher in Acton 1881-1901.
Casalguidi :)
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Thank you all for trying to help
I've rung my Great Aunt and she confirms Jabez (her father) was not only in WW1 but also in the Boer war, She says he might have been a regular in his early days.
On his marridge Cert his witnesses were a Christopher Taylor and Ellen Tyson
All the immediate family comes from Acton, including Myself, my Dad, and Jabez Taylor my Granfather (Son of Jabez Taylor)
Thanks again
John
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1871
caravans & tents, Kensal Road, Chelsea
Francis LIGHT head mar 41 hawker b.Romsey Hants
Augusta wife 57 b.Stockchurch Oxon
Patience LIGHT dau 14 b.Southampton Hants
Ada dau 12 b.Notting Dale Kensington Middlesex
Georgiana dau 10 b.Notting Dale Kensington Middlesex
Henry son 9 b.Hammersmith
There are SMITHs and TAYLORs with them (including Christopher born Wandsworth) but I couldn't see Athaliah :-\
RG10/91 folio 78 page 27 and the preceding page.
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Serving with the Boer war could well explain his absence from the 1901 census then.
Casalguidi :)
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I did wonder about this 1901 census entry ................ her age is way out :-\
1901
46 Osborne Road, Acton
John GOULSON head unm 42 licensed hawker b.Acton
Athulon (that's what it looks like) TAYLOR lodger unm 43 licensed hawker b.not known
/
Mary STEER head wid 48 laundress b.Norfolk
Walter son unm 20 carman b.Acton
/
Elizabeth SYDENHAM head wid 48 laundress b.Bristol Somerset
Uriah W son unm 19 b.Kensington London
(next door at number 48)
Christopher TAYLOR head mar 50 fruit hawker b.Wandsworth
Sarah wife 44 ironer (laundress) b.Chiswick Middlesex
Caroline dau 12 b.Acton
Albert son 8 b.Acton
Lydia dau (age crossed through so unclear) b.Acton
RG13/1204 folio 50 page 39
Casalguidi :)
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Thanks for helping Casalguidi :) :)
You gave me a lot to think about and act on
I think Christopher is a good lead and will follow him up
I've found him still in Acton in 1881
I'm seeing the family on Wednesday, and going to see what else they know
Is there any more info on Jabez war records I could follow up on
Corps or Service number or shall I post on the Army post to see if anyone could
help there
I know all these look ups take a lot of time, and it is much appreciated
John
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Hi John
Yes, do post on the armed forces board regarding John's Boer war and WW1 service - there are a lot of knowledgeable chaps around.
I keep looking but not having much luck with Jabez and or Atherlia (sic) in the other census ::)
There are some directories for Acton late 1800s/early 1900s at http://www.historicaldirectories.org which you might find interesting though the site appears to be playing up at the moment (a weekend problem I guess).
Casalguidi :)
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Not that it helps much but here is Christopher in 1891
12 Osborn Terrace, Acton
Christopher TAYLOR head mar 37 chair caner b.Wandsworth
Sarah wife 33 b.Chelsea
Millie dau 14 b.Isleworth
Sarah dau 10 b.Acton
George son 5 b.Acton
Caroline dau 2 b.Acton
Maud dau 1m b.Acton
Sharing the same property (just in case there's a connection somewhere) were :
Thomas HEARN head mar 50 general dealer b.Fulham
Mary A wife 49 b.Fulham
Henry son 14 b.Notting Hill
Christopher grandson 3 b.Notting Hill
RG12/1036 folio 146 page 28
Casalguidi :)
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Earlier I listed Augusta TAYLOR/LIGHT with her family in Kensal Road, Kensal Green, Chelsea 1871 census well here's the rest of the travellers encamped there - there's often a connection with others encamped nearby
Timothy STONE head mar 22 lather? b.Bordem? Essex
Louisa wife 25 b.London Middlesex
George son 6m b.Notting Hill
Leavinia? SMITH servant 12 b.Kensington
//
Thomas SIMPSON head mar 27 chairmaker b.Canterbury Kent
Jemima wife 22 b.not known
Brittania dau 1 b.Kensington
Thomas son 2 b.Battersea
//
William SIMPSON head mar 43 b.Canterbury Kent
Emily wife 47 hawker b.St Lawrence Kent
Francis son 8 b.Turnham Green
//
then Francis & Augusta LIGHT as posted above
//
John DAVIS unm 21 hawker b.Romsey Hants
Henry TAYLOR unm 20 b.Sarrow Middlesex
Christopher TAYLOR unm 16 b.Wandsworth
//
Joseph TAYLOR head mar 50 basket maker b.Bushey Herts
Henrietta wife 48 hawker b.Alton Hants
George son 17 b.Egham Surrey
Emma dau 15 b.Egham
Alfred son 12 b.Harrow Middlesex
//
Albert TAYLOR unm 20 chair mender b.Putney
Henry unm 18 chair mender b.Malden Surrey
//
Plato TAYLOR (40 something) mar chairmaker b.Bushey Herts
Elizabeth wife 45 b.Bedfordshire
Henrietta dau 14 b.Kingston?
Amy dau 10 b.Hendon
Jeremiah son 6 b.Kensington
Delialh? dau 3m b.Chelsea
//
Sidney SMITH head mar 22 chair bottomer b.Shillington? Bedford
Catherine wife 21 b.Bucks??
Pheobe dau 3 b.Kensington
RG10/91 folio 77 page 26 and the following page.
You never know it might be useful to have some more names to mention when you meet your relatives just in case anything rings a bell.
Casalguidi :)
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John, if you do a parent search on the IGI http://www.familysearch.org ie. just enter parents Jeremiah TAYLOR and Augusta with region (British Isles), you will see three baptisms - Mezalia 1848 Chiswick, William 1840 Bushey Herts, Athaliah 1842 Long Ditton Surrey.
Casalguidi :)
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hi tony,got your message but i am replying here so every one knows.thing is my taylorsd were based bristol/gloucester aqnd mainley devon.i can go back to 1997 with them.the 1st instance of them was mark taylor married charlotte lewis,they had kids,emma,harriet,henry,jane john and mark.i notice you have davis in the messages aswell also part of my family.although most of them stayed in the west country they did have a boxing booth that did the fairs started by john who was a nasty piece of work and they obviously travelled with their booth to the fairs.it carried on through 4 generations so no doubt they hit london/suussex at times and proabably married girls along the way.all the taylor men were particularly nasty bare knuckle fighters and wife beaters.they all had large families.i will keep an eye out for wHAT COMES UP ON THIS HUNT AND If I CAN HELP I WILL.i dont think there is a connection at the moment but if anyone can tell me different i will do what i can.my taylors liked the penfold and sander/saunders girls quite a bit so if any of those names come up let me know.i have quite a few certs,wills etc.,so will look up anything relevant.sorry not to be of more help.cathayb
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Hi All
Thanks for helping and all the info I have been getting
I now have his Pension Records for WW1, I now know he was in the Boer War,
winning the Kings medal, and serving for more than 18 months
I must look at his records myself and see if I can get any more Boer War info to help, next of Kin etc.
The family do not know anything else to help other than his father is buired in Epsom, in a Manor House grounds?
I asked about brothers or sisters and only came up with the names Chunkey
and Pepermint Joe, don't think is will be of any help :-\
A big thanks again,
John
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I asked about brothers or sisters and only came up with the names Chunkey
and Pepermint Joe
That kind of thing sounds familiar - I got the same sort of answer from older relatives when first starting out in my family history. All the male relatives that could be recalled were known by some kind of nickname whilst the girls and women were known by their usual names. I did, eventually, get to locate the "true" names for most of them ::)
Perhaps "Peppermint Joe" is a Joseph but "Chunky" - who knows ??? ;D
Casalguidi :)
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I asked about brothers or sisters and only came up with the names Chunkey
and Pepermint Joe
That kind of thing sounds familiar - I got the same sort of answer from older relatives when first starting out in my family history. All the male relatives that could be recalled were known by some kind of nickname whilst the girls and women were known by their usual names. I did, eventually, get to locate the "true" names for most of them ::)
Perhaps "Peppermint Joe" is a Joseph but "Chunky" - who knows ??? ;D
Casalguidi :)
Perhaps Charles, like Chuck/Chucky :-\
Same with my family although I have gg grandad called Cecil who was called Dosher and sometimes just Boy even into his 90s.
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I have the Taylor tree that contains Jerimiah & Augusta.
There are quite a few Taylor researchers so I wonder if you are a member of the Romany & Traveller FHS, which is where a lot of the Taylor researchers are. They had a Romany reunion a few years ago. They are also the ones involved with the Hartlake disaster, which is well documented. Jerimiahs parents were Jerimiah & Sarah. Get back to me if you need more info and are still researching Taylors.
Thanx
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yes its my family alright.i have quite a bit of info but i am working with some direct taylor descendants at the moment to try and go further back and tie up some of our present day family.i will pm you and perhaps we could exchange info and certs etc.,.yes i am a member of rtfhs and a few other sites.i post quite alot as i have a very big tree.my main line is birch but we have taylor grandperants one side and hughes the other side and just about every other romany name married in so to speak!!romany hugs cathayb
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anyone who is watching this thread. these taylors have come up in a big way on cathayb s scavenger hunt this week.you will find it listed in the common room. please come and help or at least have alook.these taylors and smith start to come in to it on page 10 in a big way drips and drabs before.they are augusta and jermiahs lot aswell.cathayb
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Hi All
Is my Atherlia Taylor died 25th Jun 1902, the Daughter of Jermiah and Augusta
and how do I make the connection
I've added the photo of the only info I have
John
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i dont know but it is very very intweresting.where is the graveyard?is it in a church or cival cemetary.i will look into it and find out.thank you for posting it.cathayb
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i have blown it up in size but i still cant read the dates?do you know what it says.and was jabez emilys husband.i just cant read it.i am getting old and the eyesight is not what it used to be.cathayb
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Hi
The Grave is in Acton Cemetery
on Park Royal Road
The grave stone reads as follows
In loving memory
of
Atherlia Taylor
who died 25th June 1902
aged 64 years
also of my dear Wife
Emily Taylor
who passed away
2nd november 1953
aged 72 years
also of Jabez Taylor
Husband of the above
who passed away
11th Feb 1965
aged 86 years
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the date is about right to be her.i need to check with a few more researchers.this is very interesting as is jabez.i will get back to you.cathayb
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are you getting the emails from me and irene?we are trying to send you information we are finding.cathayb
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Hi
My name is Gemma and my gran's mum was called Annie Lizzie Peers (although she is named as Amy on my gran's birth certificate.) She was born in Doncaster, Yorkshire in 1906. The reason I'm posting here is that my nan recalls something about her marrying a man with the surname Taylor. I was wondering if there were any links to any of the Taylors you are talking about as I know she 'ran away with the circus' as my nan put it. I think it was Bertram's circus but my nan's memory is not what it once was.
Sorry if there is no link to waste your time.
Gemma
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sorry love.i am afraid ours were all west country and home counties and not circus folk.wished i could have helped.sorry.cathayb
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Ok. Thank you for replying!
Thanks,
Gemma
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:) Hi I too am related to the Taylor's of the Hadlow Hartlake disaster. My link is through my gt grandfather's sister Elizabeth Harris 1859 - 1889. Her daughter Emily Mary Trout 1878 married Thomas Taylor 1870. Thomas is the son of Thomas Taylor c1850 - 1943 and grandson of Plato Taylor 1824 -1904 who married Elizabeth Webb. Plato is the youngest brother of the Thomas Taylor 1819 - 1853 and son of Sarah Taylor (nee Blackwell) c1784 - 1853 both of whom died in the disaster.
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hi ya.so pleased to have found another relative.theres quite a few of us doing this line.would love to share info with you and swap notes.i will also put you in touch with some of the other taylor relatives.cathayb i will pm you with my email address.
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Still ploughing through what has gone before but I am sure I can give you more.
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Hi All
Just to give you an update of where I've got to
Atherlias Death Cert States
Died at 46 Osbourne Road, Acton
Widow of Joshua Taylor
Selina Hearn, Daughter, present at death, of 18 May place Notting Hill
Selinas Marridge Cert, 1890 Maiden name Taylor, Father Joshua
Married in Fullam
Whitness Gentila Taylor and John Goodsell
1891 Census for Selina Hearn
149 Stanns Road London
With Husband Christopher as Head
Isobel Smith aged 13 Single, Sister in law
( with makes Isobel Selinas Sister)
So there is a Smith connection
Was she married Twice, or more
Whats the chance of being born a Taylor, and meeting someone
with the same surname, I surpose it must happen
I have Jabez with 2 Sisters, Selina and Isobel
Still no Birth Certs can be found
And thats where I am at the moment
any info would be much Help
Thanks to all that have Posted and Helped me get this far
John
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Dear John,
My families in my tree involve the Taylor's, Cooper, Mills, Hunts and Thompsons.
My lot originally inhabited Croydon, Mitcham and travelled anywhere from Bushey herts to Alton etc.
Now a rellie has contacted me to help him with his Great Grandfather Daniel Cooper b 1873 in Notting hill. He "married" Mary Jane Mills whose parents were Eli Mills and Jane Lindsey. Cert for Mary janes birth and marriage cert for Eli. No marriage record so far for Daniel and Mary. BUT their children christened in St Saviours Croydon and they lived and died in Croydon..
Now this is where the complications start.
Daniel and mary Jane are interred in a family grave mainly inhabited with Taylors. in Queens Road cemetary.Have seen grave and taken photos
THey include Irene Taylor and her husband T Gomm. her sister Naomi Taylor with her husband T Macintyre. Their mother Flora Taylor nee Mills b 1878, wife of Alfred Taylor b Kingston? 1875 and she is the daughter of Aaron Mills and Flora Cooper b 1852 Battersea. (Flora Cooper being the daughter of Robert Cooper and Silvi Williams.
I was a bit perplexed of why Daniel and Mary was in a Taylor grave.
I was informed by Irenes daughter that Daniel was in fact Alfred Taylors BROTHER.
I have been on Jackie Blackman's gypsies passing through website on wetpaint and someone advised me to come here
I have gleaned a lot of information but the peice that is missing is the Father of Alfred and Daniel should be a Joshua Taylor. (Alfreds marriage cert to Flora)
Now Atherlia's death cert states she is the wife of a Joshua Taylor.
BUt now the other complication is the Smith name has come up.
What I cant find on any census is a Joshua Taylor that may fit the year of birth and a hawker , gypsy or otherwise.
I have spoken to Alfreds grandson today who is also my second cousin through the Thompson side. and he remembers as a child visiting Nottinghill and Acton with his mother to visit rellies.
He thinks a Taylor married a Shepherd.
I have traced Atherlias family back to Jeremiah Taylor and Sarah. She is the daughter of Jeremiah Jnr b c 1815-1816.
I found young Daniel under the name of Taylor in the 1881 census with his cousin Henrietta Taylor and her new husband Noah parker in Wanstead Flats, in the next caravan is her father Plato Taylor b c 1824 christened in Bushey herts.
Now if Henrietta and young Daniel are cousins by rights Plato should have a brother born over 20 years later called Joshua......
But at no time is there a Atherlia and Joshua appearing in a census.
Jabez appears . is this a gypsy name for Joshua I ask.??
Found Atherlias christening in 1842 under her gypsy name.
I dont know of many Taylors but there are quite a few descendents still alive under the name of Thompson in and around Croydon still.
They are getting on but their memories fading fast.
Hope I havent rambled , but maybe we could help each other here.
Even if I found birth records for Alfred and Daniel I would be grateful.
But being born in one place dosent mean to say they were registered in the same area. Thats if they were registered at all.
Regards Carol
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are you sure sarah taylor was a blackwell before marriage to jermiah?i have good reason to believe she wasnt!!!!!?i would be interested to see any profs yopu have. i suspect she was a fisher
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Hi Cath
I originally was given Sarah's maiden name as Blackwell by Lena Taylor a direct descendant of Plato Taylor 1824 and then again by Elizabeth Thomas, grand daughter of Plato Taylor 1880 grandson of Plato 1824. However, I am now aware of two schools of thought ... Blackwell or Fisher??
The 1861 census shows Sarah as having been born Chalk Hill Bushey Herts and I am aware a Fisher/Taylor marriage took part at Bushey with the correct names so I am now more inclined to this being correct. I am still in touch with te others and will try to get further infomation as to why they believe Blackwell to be correct?? Watch this space....
Jacqueline
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i will with interest.thanks cathayb
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Hello every one,
Just a quickie, I have Family tree maker and any info I have I am putting the details on a tree.
When I was putting Jeremiah, Sarah and their children on I came to Thomas who I thought belonged to Sarah as he died with her in the Hartlake disaster aged 18ys,??
But that would make his birth c 1835.
As I put him on a warning came up and told me his father had died ? do I want to put another father on???
Jeremiah aledgingly died on Wimbledon Common in a fight in 1831 SO who did THOMAS belong to???????
Come on Cathay is that the mystery??
LOL
Carol
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THAT THOMAS WAS HER GRAND SON!!!!
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I must have been getting tired Thomas her son was 38 yrs her grandson 4. Sorry.
But what I did read is the memorial service details of the disaster on Romany Road.co.uk was that Sarah's G G Grandaughers Alice Ransome had written the account and was read by her sister Annie Brazil.
Then it stated that THEIR grandparents SAMUEL COOPER AND ANNIE SHEPHERD chose to marry in St Mary's in 1898 to commarate the disaster.
BUT I could not find a marriage record for the year stated not under those names.
Am I getting warm
Carol x
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you are my dear you are.i wonder if the brazils are going to come into this?
i feel a bit mean but its good for you to pursue the chase cause you might well come up with something i havent seen.but i will keep pointing you in the right direction.
romany hugs cathay
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HI Cathay
I am like a dog with a bone and I dont let go until I have won!
This has kept me awake for several nights now with several theories.
Hasten the time of this flipping e mail.
And the stupid thing is it isnt even my direct rellie.
Dave whose grt grandfather Daniel Cooper is has just joined this site and wetpaint.
So I hope hes watching this!
I know I am going off the subject but to top it all I went to bed last night early, when my son comes in to tell me there was a strange 3 legged dog at our door wet, bedraggled and starving. The cat shot one way the dog ignored it eat all her food.
Came in went to jump on my bed and I stopped her and she promplty layed down on the floor and went to sleep.! I put an old blanket down.
I will have to check the local vets tomorrow, she has had her front leg amputated. Shes a young dog about 2 yrs old.
I suspect shes been roaming for a few days.
All the waifs and strays seem to end up on my doorstep.
They seem to know.
Shes laid beside me now leaned up aginst my leg.
I am also going to give her a shower later.
Any way back to the subject!
I am going to have another look at this while I am awake and Ill get back to you
I found a birth record for a Alfred James Taylor in Kensington in the Sept qtr 1874, if Jacqui hsnt got her grandfathers cert already I might get That one myself.
Ill have another delve.
Night or morning.
Carol
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Carol, search http://freebmd.rootsweb.com for marriages of a Samuel COOPER in volume 2a (covers Kent) and within the results, click on the reference number of the Samuel COOPER married Tunbridge 1898 - that will give you two possible spouses ;)
Casalguidi :)
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There is a marriage 1898 Q3 Tunbridge 2a page 1355
Samuel Cooper= Annie Shephard
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Hi
Found it I was spelling Annies last name wrong.
Thanks.
Carolx
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hi sorry to butt in im new to this site and the only way to talk to you was to reply to your last post.I have both Taylors and Hughes in my family these are some of them mackenzie taylor pheonix taylor amy taylor winefred taylor richard taylor john hughes alfred alga hughes.i dont have much info on hughes side but qyite a lot on taylor side.Does any of these ring a bell with you? :)
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are they from devon way.?i dont have any mackenzies but i have hughes and taylors.let me know the area and i will tell you if we are likely to connect.hope so.it would be good.
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Taylors are from berkenhead and wales
Hughes my grandma married alfred alga hughes he was a traveller i don't know much other that he and my grandma left wales when she was 15 so we summised he was from wales.my granny was winefred taylor born to mackenzie Taylor and jane Griffiths.
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Hello Every one
I have just contacted a direct rellie of Jabez and Emily's first born Athalia b 1903
and although they dont know a great deal between us we may find out a lot more.
I have been given a lot of info by one of the great great great grandaughters of Sarah and jeremiah of which I am sifting through.
Athelia's (b 1903) grandson who is from another well documented gypsy family called Bird.
But looking at his website it may well be another Bird group of families.
Watch this space.
Samuel Cooper who married Annie Shephard in Hadlow his father was also called Samuel. b abt 1857.
At first I thought he may have been the son of Robert Cooper and Silvia Williams born in 1856 but on tracing it back he looks as tough he is related to matthias Cooper of Queen Victoria fame. I am convinced he is connected to my Samuel b 1794. But how I am still working out.
Carol x
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yes love hes definately related to mathias cooper of victoria fame you are getting close.!!!!!
if you want to send me some of the bird details to my home email night owl i will put the bird family on the scavenger hunt next week on here.i we can all route around for them cause i havent done the bird line either.let me know by saturday if you wanna do it or else i got to come up with something else.love cathayb
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Oh Cathayb........ I will be hoping to help you next week ;D ;D
Looking forward to it ;D
Sue :)
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okay sue do i know you love?can you pm me and let me have your email i think i may have something to help you after seeing your other posts.cathayb
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Hello Cathay
I have to go out for half an hour I will give details when I get back.
Carol x
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send the details carol.a few folk are already interested.
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carol gonna need details soon if i am going to do bird?hope to take in the other families mentioned aswell so far on this thread.can you contact by late sunday night?before if yoiu can or i will have to thin of something else to scavenage forcathayb
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Athaliah Taylor married Joshua Cooper, Matty Coopers son. They had two children that i know of, William Cooper and Selina Cooper. Joshua died young and then Athaliah 'married' Sam Smith, son of Perron Smith (he being son of Elijah Smith and Sophia Chilcott, who used to travel around with Mattys parents) and Elizabeth Smith (dau of Lol White and Lavinia Smith) She wasnt the widow of Joshua Taylor, but Joshua Cooper, but because she reverted to her maiden name which we all know are interchangable anyway with our gypsy ancestors, this is where you are all getting confused. There are some bits about Sam Smith and Athaliah being the widow of Joshua Cooper in Charles Godfrey Lelands papers, if i can find the right pieces will post them.
The Sam Cooper and Annie Shepherd you are talking about are my grandfather Tom Coopers brother and sister in law. Their father was Samuel Cooper, son of Matty and therefore brother of Joshua Cooper.
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Heres a few pieces from The Gypsies by Charles Godfrey Leland about Joshua Cooper, Athalia Cooper, and Sam Smith and Athalia. Its out of copyright so am cutting and pasting.
Sam Smith was always known on the roads as Fighting Sam. Years have
passed, and when I have asked after him I have always heard that he was
either in prison or had just been let out. Once it happened that, during
a fight with a Gorgio, the Gorgio's watch disappeared, and Sam was
arrested under suspicion of having got up the fight in order that the
watch might disappear. All of his friends declared his innocence. The
next trouble was for _chorin a gry_, or stealing a horse, and so was the
next, and so on. As horse-stealing is not a crime, but only "rough
gambling," on the roads, nobody defended him on these counts. He was, so
far as this went, only a sporting character. When his wife died he
married Athalia, the widow of Joshua Cooper, a gypsy, of whom I shall
speak anon. I always liked Sam. Among the travelers, he was always
spoken of as genteel, owing to the fact, that whatever the state of his
wardrobe might be, he always wore about his neck an immaculate white
woolen scarf, and on _jours de fete_, such as horse-races, sported a
_boro stardi_, or chimney-pot hat. O my friend, Colonel Dash, of the
club! Change but the name, this fable is of thee!
"There's to be a _walgoro_, _kaliko i sala_--a fair to-morrow morning, at
Cobham," said Sam, as he departed.
"All right. We'll be there."
As we approached the cock-shy, where sticks were cast at cocoa-nuts, a
young gypsy _chai_, whom I learned to know in after-days as Athalia
Cooper, asked me to buy some sticks. A penny a throw, all the cocoa-nuts
I could hit to be my own. I declined; she became urgent, jolly, riotous,
insistive. I endured it well, for I held the winning cards. _Qui minus
propere_, _minus prospere_. And then, as her voice rose _crescendo_ into
a bawl, so that all the Romanys around laughed aloud to see the green
Gorgio so chaffed and bothered, I bent me low, and whispered softly in
her ear a single monosyllable.
Why are all those sticks dropped so suddenly? Why does Athalia in a
second become sober, and stand up staring at me, all her chaff and
urgency forgotten. Quite polite and earnest now. But there is joy
behind in her heart. This _is_ a game, a jolly game, and no mistake.
And uplifting her voice again, as the voice of one who findeth an
exceeding great treasure even in the wilderness, she cried aloud,--"_It's
a Romany rye_!"
The spiciest and saltest and rosiest of Sir Patrick's own stories, told
after dinner over his own old port to a special conventicle of clergymen
about town, was never received with such a roar of delight as that cry of
Athalia's was by the Romany clan. Up went three sheers at the find;
further afield went the shout proclaiming the discovery of an
aristocratic stranger of their race, a _rye_, who was to them as
wheat,--a gypsy gentleman. Neglecting business, they threw down their
sticks, and left their cocoanuts to grin in solitude; the _dyes_ turned
aside from fortune-telling to see what strange fortune had sent such a
visitor. In ten minutes Sir Patrick and I were surrounded by such a
circle of sudden admirers and vehement applauders, as it seldom happens
to any mortal to acquire--out of Ireland--at such exceedingly short
notice and on such easy terms.
They were not particular as to what sort of a gypsy I was, or where I
came from, or any nonsense of that sort, you know. It was about
_cerevisia vincit omnia_, or the beery time of day with them, and they
cared not for anything. I was extremely welcome; in short, there was
poetry in me. I had come down on them by a way that was dark and a trick
that was vain, in the path of mystery, and dropped on Athalia and picked
her up. It was gypsily done and very creditable to me, and even Sir
Patrick was regarded as one to be honored as an accomplice. It is a
charming novelty in every life to have the better class of one's own kind
come into it, and nobody feels so keenly as a jolly Romany that _jucundum
nihil est nisi quod ref icit varietas_--naught pleases us without
variety.
Then and there I drew to me the first threads of what became in
after-days a strange and varied skein of humanity. There was the Thames
upon a holiday. Now I look back to it, I ask, _Ubi sunt_? (Where are
they all?) Joshua Cooper, as good and earnest a Rom as ever lived, in
his grave, with more than one of those who made my acquaintance by
hurrahing for me. Some in America, some wandering wide. Yet there by
Weybridge still the Thames runs on.
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Thanks Smiley face,
Thats really interesting, and I appreciate you posting it.
I now ask myself is my Alfred Taylor and Daniel Cooper to Joshua Cooper and Alathia Taylor or not.
I am sending for a birth cert as we speak a Alfred James Taylor registered in Kensington in the Sept qtr of 1874.
Why do I chose that one, intuition, Alfred was meant to be born in Kingston, he could have been registered in Wandsworth, Lambeth, camberwell and there are some registrations of a Alfred James in each of them. But most of the family were in Notting hill (Notting dale) or Acton for a number of years so I plump for Kensington which was the registration district of the time.
I just wish another rellie of one of Alfreds children could be looking at this and say they actually know his birthday, maybe tell me when and where he died even.
Alfred had 11 children that I know about, so someone somewhere must have either his death records or his birth record.
I have Flora his wifes record her birth cert and a bmd record she died in 1970 Croydon.
Get back to you as soon as I know anything
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View the reply at: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=346831.new;topicseen#new
page 3 now and we have just got to the right bird family and the rest from here.please join in now we should get the answersits in the scavenger hunt this week!!cathayb
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Hi. My 4xGrt Grandfather was Plato Taylor. I have been researching since I discovered my Gypsy links. I remember, as a child in the 1950s/60s, my brother and I being taken to the fair at Wansted Flats and given free rides while my parents went into a caravan to see Great Aunt Lizzie. When my brother was about 12, he was taken into a caravan (Idon't know why), but at the time I was more interested in the free rides and goodies I was given to occupy me. Auntie Lila and Uncle George had the boat swings. I have started a tree and have 6 generations with info I got from censii.
Any help to you?
ladyinspain
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:D
Hi Ladyinspain
I am connected to Plato through my Gt grandfather's sister Elizabeth Harris and would be happy to share information. My email is email address removed by moderator - please use the secure Rootschat personal message system to exchange personal email addresses - thankyou
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Hi Jaqui
We are already in touch through Genes Reunited.
Lena
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Hi Lena
Did wonder if it was you. Hope you are having a wonderful Christmas in the sun.
Kind regards
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HI Every one
Happy New Year to you all!!.
I think we have another Taylor/SMith connection.
I have had a lady contact me who's gt grandfather is my great grandfathers brother.
MY GR Grandfather is George HUNT and hers is ALBERT HUNT.
Albert Hunt b c 1871 in Clay Hill Bushey Herts "married" an Isabella TAYLOR but so far unable to trace a birth for her and she was born in Acton.
Their daughter names were Edith b c 1896/97 Acton an Elizabeth b c 1900 Acton and they all appear on the 1901 census in Hales St Deptford.
The last known daughter was born in 1913 in Deptford called Selina.
Apparently their were two half sisters, an Atherlia born to Isabella before Albert and a Lottie (could be short for Charlotte??) to Albert mother so far unknown.
Because of the reacurrence of these names bells started ringing through my head and I re read al the posts here and I think I have cracked it.
On Atherlias death cert her daughter Selina (Became Hearn) reported her death and on the 1891 census Christopher and Selina had a "sister in law" Isobel Smith living with them. so that had to be Selinas sister.
Are you seeing where I am coming from?
So with some birth certs to back us up I am totally convimced that the Isabella "Taylor" that went with Albert Hunt is the Isobel Smith.
Comments please or any one know any different.
The lady in question is a Tess daughter of Selina Hunt . :D
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Hi Everyone,
I've been following this thread with some interest but am very new at these families who keep changing their names and travelling around! Most of my lot are much more staid.
I was looking into Athalia (various spellings) Taylor who married Samuel Smith aka John Taylor. She had a daughter Selina (later Hearne) who registered her death. Do you think this could be her baptism? -
CINDERELLE TAYLOR Female
Christening: 21 JUN 1868 West Molesey, Surrey, England
Mother: ATTALIAL TAYLOR
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Hi
Its possible Ill check o Selinas presumed birth year and see if we can come close.
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Hello nightnurse51.
We have received a letter regarding this family, this is what it said.
Regards
Sarah
"Jabez and Emily Taylor first born daughter Alhalia was born in 1903 (I am) Alhalia's daughter-in-law. Many members of your family are all around here Alhalia's children & grandchildren & G Grandchildren. I was married to her Eldest son Ernest for over over 50 years who sadly died in 2003 and we had 7 children. I have information about Grandad he was not serving with the boar war BUT was in the Zulu war! I have a photo of the grave before I think and an Aunt showed it to me years ago. I would be delighted to hear from someone I live in the village where Alhalia and her husband and children were evacuees during WW2.
Yours M B"
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Hi Sarah
Jabez was born in about 1879, the Zulu War started then, in his war papers it says he has the kings medal which would of been the Boer war
John
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yes the Zulu war began the year jabez was born.the Boer war however was= Boer War, started on 11 October 1899 and ended on 31 May 1902.
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Think this is my family . My mum is Joan Taylor , daughter of Robert Taylor . They lived in Acton my grandad and some of his brothers are buried at gunersbury park in London
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My great grandad jabez
My great Nan Emily
There children who my grandad was one of them
Jabez
Mary
Athelia
Nobby - Alfred
Aunt glad - gladys
Aunt Joan - Joan
Robert - Albert
Danal- Daniel
Lenny- Leonard
Dinnie- Dennis
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gypsie corner
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Hello Haley, Welcome to RootsChat.
Tree Hunter who started off this topic has turned off notifications to his topics so is no longer choosing to be notified of new replies on this topic. :'(
Regards
Sarah