RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Buckinghamshire => Topic started by: murphy60 on Saturday 29 March 08 15:14 GMT (UK)
-
Looking for help or inspiration on this one tho' pretty sure I know how hopeless this is ....
Harry Smith Age 2 on 1861 in Aston Clinton with unmarried mother Rhoda Smith.
I have received his BC w/ bd of March 26th, 1859. Rhoda did not name the father.
Rhoda marries a widower in 1868 (have their MC) and by 1870 they have emigrated and are in the U.S. Harry Smith takes on his stepfather's surname from that point forward.
Short of a DNA study, any other way to look for who the birth father might be???
Many thanks for any guidance or ideas :)
lissa
-
No - if Rhoda never declared in any official document that has survived who the father was, then we have no way of finding out.
-
It might be worth contacting Bucks Archives to see if they have any record - possibly a Bastardy Order.
As she didn't marry for nearly 10 years, it's possible she may have had to ask for poor relief. However, I wouldn't hold out too much hope, as I think such surviving records are few and far between. It's also likely that her family would have supported her.
Worth a try though - you might get lucky! ;D
Jill
-
Hi lizdb and Jill, thanks for responding.
You have confirmed the grim reality of probably never knowing :-\
Jill, thanks for the suggestion to contact Bucks Arcchives. I will try that.
I did try try looking on the NA site for Bastardy cases but I'm not very versatile on that site and what I did find wasn't them. But will try with that again "just in case"...
Rhoda seemed to make her own way as a plaiter until the time she remarried.... family (also poor people) lived close by..so somehow she managed until she married. In Harry's memoirs later in life he recalls being in some sort of "private school" before they went to the U.S. So maybe there was an "arrangement" w/ the father's family.
I also have my suspicions about the wealthy older unmarried farmer next door with a young housekeeper and the other 2 young unmarried women close by also with small children..... ::) ::) ::) just making up stories......
Many thanks!!
lissa
-
The only other straw you could clutch at is to see if he was chrisitened and if there is anything in the Parish record. More that likely it will just say 'son of Rhoda'.
-
Thanks lizbd, I have thought of the parish record --- need to pull out my files on the Smiths to see there are baptismal locations in Aston Clinton for others of the Smith family as a starting place.
I have Smith "cousins" descending from Rhoda's brother -- they know little except that Rhoda's life was hard setting out and got much better after marriage and emigration.
The only other straw to grasp is that no one in Rhoda's family is named Harry. So either she just liked the name or it's a clue to the father's name ??? And, Harry also named a son Harry........maybe as a way of subtly carrying on a blood line association.
Thanks for the further suggestion!
lissa
-
The only other straw you could clutch at is to see if he was christened and if there is anything in the Parish record. More that likely it will just say 'son of Rhoda'.
Unfortunately the transcript of the baptism at St Michael & All Angels Church, Aston Clinton, simply reads.....
16 Oct 1859, Harry, Child of Rhoda Smith of Aston Clinton
In my experience it would be highly unusual for the church registers to name a father, if the civil registration of the birth did not.
Your only hope, as others have suggested, might be any surviving bastardry papers, but I don't think your chances are great.
BTW I am related to many of the Smiths from Aston Clinton, but as no Rhodas feature in my tree, I'm assuming her origins are different.
Stef.
-
Hi Stef! Like your RC nickname by the way!
Very sorry for the delayed response to your very kind effort in looking up the PR for Harry's birth -- I was out of town.
The baptismal record at least reconfirms all that is known and that Harry's bloodline will probably never be know.
Rhoda's Father was Thomas Smith b. 1811 d. 1851-1853 Mother Sarah (nee unknown) b. 1811
In 1851 Thomas, Sarah and family are on Green End Street in Aston Clinton
Sarah remarries to Elijah Thorne in 1853. In 1881 Sarah and Elijah are on Weston Road in Aston Clinton.
Rhoda's siblings: George, John, James, Peter, Job, William.
Again many thanks for your help and if we have any Smith connection from the above, let me know.
lissa
-
Rhoda's Father was Thomas Smith b. 1811 d. 1851-1853 Mother Sarah (nee unknown) b. 1811
In 1851 Thomas, Sarah and family are on Green End Street in Aston Clinton
Sarah remarries to Elijah Thorne in 1853. In 1881 Sarah and Elijah are on Weston Road in Aston Clinton.
Rhoda's siblings: George, John, James, Peter, Job, William.
Hi Lissa,
This is quite intriguing, because in 1841, "your lot", including, Thomas, Sarah, Rhoda, (listed as "Rodia"), are at Dancer's End, which is but a few hundred yards from Ebbs Pit, which is where my 2 * great grandfather Charles SMITH and his wife Ann COX are living. Next door to Charles is also Charles brother, another Thomas SMITH, and his wife Mary MEAD & family. This Thomas is given as aged 31, so, by coincidence, exactly the same age as yours.
My Charles and Thomas are both sons of Henry SMITH and Frances (or Fanny) HUMPHREY who married in Buckland on 12 Oct 1802. I don't know where Henry originated from, though.
Do you know where your Thomas SMITH was born, please, or who his parents were. The 1841 shows quite clearly that he and his wife were born outside of Buckinghamshire.
So it looks likely that although your SMITH family are living in close proximity to many "local" SMITHs who are inter-related, that your family were migrants from another area, and probably not long term residents of the Aston Clinton area.
One thing you have confused me with though, is that you say Thomas is with his family in Green End Street in 1851. The family I found shows Sarah as the widowed head of household, so I think Thomas had died before the 1851 census. (This is why I don't know his birthplace more accurately than "outside Buckinghamshire")
If I have the right Sarah, then she is born in Fencott, Oxfordshire. I guess it is kind of likely that your Thomas also hails from Oxon, although perhaps not, as all children seem to be born in the Aston Clinton area.
Sorry, more questions than answers, there I think.
But to recap
What do you know of Thomas' birthplace or parents ?
&
Do you agree he is not in the 1851 census ?
Finally I have transcriots of Aston Clinton, St Leonards, and Buckland parish registers, if you need any SMITH lookups (pre 1901) done. Sadly Drayton Beauchamp, which might answer some of my mysteries, is not available. Apparently some of the 1813 onwards registers are those still in use at the church!
Best wishes,
Stef.
-
One further mystery.
Your Thomas SMITH dies somewhere around 1851.
I can't find a burial at....
Aston Clinton, St Michael & All Angels
Aston Clinton, St Leonard
Buckland, All Saints.
That would seem to me to leave only Drayton Beauchamp, (not the most obvious choice), unless he was buried away from the area.
Strange it's not at one of the 3 I have records for.
Stef.
-
Hi Lissa,
Some more info for you.
You say you do not have maiden name of Sarah who married Thomas SMITH.
It would appear to be WESTBURY, as her father is stated as Richard WESTBURY when she remarries ti Elijah THORNE.
Please let me know if there are any further details of that marriage that you do not have, and would like.
Stef.
-
Hi Stefan, WOW I'm thrilled to have new leads on the Smiths!!! Thank you and I don't mind the questions at all! I will have another look at my notes later --- I only looked very quickly last nite in order to give you the basics and it has been awhile since I explored this line in detail. I truly wasn't expecting more follow-up!
I may have filled in some details from various sources into my recapped notes as (at the time) I did not have direct, full access to the English Census images.
I think "my" Sarah is the one from Fencott and finding her maiden name is new information for me.
I'm still at work --- was grabbing a quick peek -- so will work on this later.
Many thanks for spurring renewed hope in developing this line. I do have an English Smith"cousin" who is directly descended through one of Rhoda's brothers but have not followed up with her on detailed information.
Rhoda had 2 brothers who followed her to the U.S. circa early 1870 -- I think it was John and Peter and one had wife Mary Ann and there was a son Job as well.
When I was researching this several years ago, I was very confused by the Smith's Thorne's, Cox's and Sharpe's as they were in close proximity. I couldn't really figure it all out until I found them in the U.S.
Will get back with you later re; the clarifying information you requested..
Regards,
lissa
-
OK, I look forward to any further info you have.
I'm interested in ALL the SMITHs in Drayton Beauchamp, Buckland, Buckland Common, St Leonard & Aston Clinton.
So far I think maybe 75% of those in the 1841 - 1901 period are amazingly all from the same line, but I'm interested in following the remaining 25%, to see if there is a connection I've yet to find.
I am intrigued by your mention of COX, as my 2 * great grandparents were Charles SMITH and Ann COX. The COXs have (surprisingly) proved harder to unravel than the SMITHs. To complete the picture, my other main name from those hamlets and villages is PENN.
These are very inter-bred families, I can tell you!
Stef.
-
Hello Stef. Went back and rechecked my notes --- my quicky reply last nite was not far off the mark.......
Yes, I concur Sarah is a widow in 1851, alone w/ the children. By the age of the youngest, William age 4, Thomas died between 1847-1851.
I found 3 deaths in Aylesbury which could be this Thomas Smith: Sep Qtr 1847 Mar Qtr 1849 and Sep Qtr 1849
However it is discouraging you have not found a PR for his death so maybe neither of the above are him!!
I can't find them in 1841 --- BUT someone found them for me in 1841 --- several groups of Smiths in Buckland, the street name of "Dancers End" was not cited....
My group: Thomas 31 (Pauper) Sarah 31 w/ John 6 Rodia 3 James 1
As a reference, in 1841, next door are (I have not made a connection to "my" Thomas)
Job Smith 25 Mary 28 Jane 4 Frederick 2
Thomas Smith 31 Mary 31 Ann 13 William 11 Joseph 7 Henry 3
In 1861,
Sarah Thorne 50 (1811) b. Aston Clinton Wife of Elizah Thorne 55 with Job Smith 18 William Smith 13
Rhoda Smith is on her own w/ Harry Smith age 2
Marriage Sarah Smith to Elizah Thorne Dec Qtr 1853 Aylesbury
I wasn't able to access images tonight -- some glitch apparently -- could only see the index and transcribed information so I couldn't reconfirm the street addresses nor see neighbors on adjacent pages. As soon as the glitch is fixed, will try to find Thomas in 1841 to see if there is a birthplace for him --- but I'm sure you would already know this if it was there ??
I doubt if I provided anything new for you as you have well researched this area and surname. But I very much appreciate the new information on Sarah's maiden "Westbury".
I will take a shot @ Thomas' DC in my next order from GRO -- maybe will get lucky & something interesting there ?? and for Sarah's MC to Elizah Thorne as well.
Let me know if I can help further or if you have any other thoughts on all this.
:) :)
lissa
-
Hi Lissa,
I'm in late tonight, so this may be a bit of a rushed reply.
I think one of those Thomas SMITH deaths is likely to be your man. I am confused, however, that I can't turn up a burial.
I don't know how well you know the area, but it has what were called "strip parishes", because they were very long and narrow. A parish map looks almost like a piece of streaky bacon, with Aston Clinton (which includes St Leonards), Buckland, (which includes Buckland Common) and Drayton Beauchamp parishes all stretched out side by side.
This make it very hard to know where an event may be recorded, as you maybe have to travel 5 or 7 miles to get from one end of a particular parish to another, but maybe no more than a mile in the other direction to cross all 3.
Dancers End, (where your SMITHs are in 1841) and nearby Ebbs Pitt, (where mine are), are tiny Hamlets - the latter barely exists today. I'm not even sure which parish they were in, back then.
(They are not street names, rather small groups of houses, surrounded otherwise by countryside).
Within those three parishes there are 4 churches, (Aston Clinton has it's main one, but also one at St Leonard). In my experience a baptism, marriage or burial can crop up at any, even if the people were not in that particular parish at the time. (A complication is that St Leonard was debarred from performing marriages from 1754 to about 1860 as a result of Hardwicke's marriage act).
I have the wherewithal to check registers for all but Drayton Beauchamp, and didn't find a Thomas Smith burial. That may mean it was at Drayton Beauchamp - it's hard to imagine why he might have been buried elsewhere, particularly as his wife stayed put in the area.
If you don't want to spend out on Sarah's second marriage certificate, I can let you have the full transcript from the Aston Clinton parish registers, if that helps. Just let me know.
Oh, and by the way, the 1841 census does not give place of birth - only whether born in the county, or outside it. Thomas SMITH is from outside the county, like his wife, but that's all we can know from the census. (People who can't stay alive until 1851 are most annoying!).
I have to say, I think it unlikely we will easily establish a connection between my SMITHs and yours.
If your Thomas was born out of county, and his wife was Oxfordshire born, there has to be a good chance that so was he, I'd have thought.
But you never know, in this game.....
Stef.
-
Hi Stef. I very much appreciate your very well informed and researched local expertise. I have worked from the 1858 map of Buck to establish geographical reference points so the explanation of the parish system is excellent and very helpful. That part is always a bit confusing from the American side. Excellent analogy regarding the "bacon strip parishes" -- makes that very clear now.
Something is sticking about the Drayton Beauchamp reference --- I may have something from there which I set aside previously.
I agree that it is unlikely he was buried outside the area --- they were very rooted there for many years and were poor people -- unless he was killed or died while away from home ??? Or could there be a reason the death was not recorded because of lack of money or some issue with the parish??
Will also renew the search for Thomas and Sarah focusing on Oxfordshire -- maybe some remnant of their families left there. WESTBURY being the easier name to search than SMITH (if "easier" applies ??) Will be tough to do on-line before civil registration and the census.
Sarah's 2nd marriage transcript to ELizah THORNE would be very helpful in order to document that event. Thank you!!
Have you found in your other research, SMITH (or any other surname ) all knotted together like this but not related? Seems so strange that house after house and groups on adjacent streets within these tiny hamlets and they are not related or at least not from the seminal family/families ?? I would think the SMITH surname has something to do with complicating this based on how the name came to be. Over time the intermarriages between family groups and the cousins marrying cousins also becomes a factor. Not to mention every family using the same 10 names over and over!
LOL! on your comment regarding not having the courtesy to stay alive until the next census!! In American research, when they miss (or are lost in) the English census, arrive after the U.S. census and then marry, have children and very inconveniently die before the next census --- harumpf :'(
Thanks again -- really appreciate your sharing your considerable knowledge.
lissa
-
Lissa - Here is the transcript of that second marriage.
St Michael & All Angels, Aston Clinton
Marriage 17th Oct 1853
Elijah THORN, aged fa, Widower of Aston Clinton, Labourer, son of Joseph THORN, Labourer.
Sarah SMITH, aged fa, Widow of Aston Clinton, Platter, daughter of Richard WESTBURY, Labourer
by Banns
Witnesses John PARRADINE, Mary BALDWIN
All made marks, rather than signing.
"Platter" means "Straw Plaiter" and is often spelt this way in parish registers.
Please note this is from a generally reliable family history society transcript - I can't vouch that it matches original registers.
I confirm there is definitely no burial transcribed in the registers for this church that could be Thomas SMITH. There are no SMITHs he could be muddled with, nor ant Thomas that look like they could be an error.
I've also checked St Leonard & Buckland again, and (just in case) nearby Halton.
I suppose if he was a pauper, and died in an institution in Aylesbury, he might have been buried there, to avoid the expense of bringing him home. My gut feel is you might find his burial at Drayton Beauchamp, but my understanding is that the registers for the relevant date are still in use at the church, so can't even be viewed at the county records office, let alone on film.
I don't know what to make of the Aston Clinton (and surrounding villages) SMITHs. I put off trying to research them for a while, because I thought the name would be hard. In practice it seemed quite easy to attribute up to 75% of the SMITHs in that area in the 19th Century to a common pair of ancestors, which genuinely surprised me.
I remained aware of quite a few SMITHs that were not obviously related, and yours seem to be some of them. At least one other SMITH family has a soldiering background, and, again, doesn't obviously link to mine.
You mentioned COX at one point. Were they from here, please ? I have these in my ancestry. They changed the name from COCK to COX about the time they were marrying in to my SMITHs. I guess I can see why!
Stef.
-
Hi Stef. Many thanks for the Marriage Record --- with that now have confirmation of Sarah's maiden name and father which is totally new information! YEAH!! The Parradine name for the witness is familiar. But I may be recalling this from other parish records -- maybe an employee of the parish? I also think the name relates to a wealthy farmer/land owner in the area??
I (finally) found Thomas and Sarah SMITH this morning in the 1841 Census. They are not indexed. I worked from the other nearby Smith references given to me several years ago through the census pages to find them. Everything is the same as previously reported. I guess the eldest son Charles (age 10 or 11) was "loaned out" at the time otherwise all the siblings born at that time accounted for so hoping it truly is my group.
Seems Dancers End still exists -- was able to find several references by googling -- in the modern villiage of Halton, Dancers End and St. Leonard's Road were mentioned together in a building permit request. I wasn't able to find any pictures of the area yet.
I originate from a long line of plaiters/platters apparently!!! All the women in my Steeple/Middle Claydon branch are lace makers. Have found historic photos's of women outside their cottages --- who could be my great great grandmother/aunts -- working away! I did not get the gene for any of these talents!
I'm checking back on the COCK/COX (sure glad they changed that!!) but think there is a marriage or two through a different line and not the Smiths. Will confirm that with you.
I congratulate you on your success with the SMITH line -- a remarkable achievement to have linked so many!!
I'm not so hopeful about my lot but perhaps your help the WESTBURY connection will help open the door a little wider.
No Military connections for the Smiths that I know of. There are a couple of military connections through my other Bucks line but nothing of distinctive interest.
When I order the DCs for the possible Thomas Smith's in Aylesbury, I'll let you know what they show in case they are helpful to you as well. Unfortunate luck on the Drayton Beauchamps records --- wonder what secrets hidden there to prohibit them from becoming public domain 158 years later :-\ :-\
Stef. you have been very encouraging and most helpful.
Thanks again!
lissa
-
Thanks Lissa,
If you can get the right Thomas SMITH death cert, then at least we will know where he died, which may give clues to his burial.
I've yet to try approaching Drayton Beauchamp church directly about access to their records, but having seen the standard scale of charges the Anglican church say they apply for this, if Drayton Beauchamp stick by the rules, I don't think I'll be going for it.
My direct line are all accounted for, so further work in that Parish would only be side branches, and it's not something I can really justify spending out a lot of money on.
I too have many straw plaiters in my line, the most recent being Ann PENN, wife of William, ("Will"), SMITH. (These are my Great grand parents, both from the area we are talking about, but buried across the county boundary in Tring, Hertfordshire).
Let us know outcome on the certificates, and if I turn up anything else, I'll certainly get back to you.
Stef.
-
An update on this.
Looking at both the 1841/1851 situation, then the hamlet of Dancer's End, where Thomas and Sarah SMITH were living fell within the parish of Buckland, Buckinghamshire.
That's still the case today, (although neighbouring parishes have changed dramatically since those dates).
The border with Drayton Beauchamp parish is within just a few hundred yards, but the home parish of anyone living in Dancer's End, (or nearby Ebb's Pit or Spencer's Green) would have been Buckland.
I'm glad you made me think about it, because it's the first time I've actually got around to working out the exact Status of these hamlets.
Alan
-
Progress!!! maybe......
A sharp RC'er on the Oxford board found marriage of Richard WESTBURY to Mary COLLET Jan 19, 1811 which fits (sorta) nicely to an extracted IGI record for Sarah WESTBURY c. June 30 1811 in Charleton Ottmoor Father indicated as Richard, Mother as Mary.
ADDED: Richard indicated he came from Grendon Underwood, Buckinghamshire on the MC --- a hop and skip from Bicester !!
If a correct fit, made it to the alter just in time ::) ::)
Now following this theory to determine if Richard WESTBURY could be part of this group and a son of a Joseph and Mary WESTBURY. Mary possible nee LINES
1841 BICESTER, PLOUGHY HUNDRED, OXFORD (CROCKWELL)
WESTBURY, Joseph 80 (1761) Ag Lab Of the County
WESTBURY, Mary 65 (1776) “
WESTBURY, Harriett 20 (1821)
WESTBURY, Richard 29 (1821)
WESTBURY, Thomas 15 (1826)
SMITH, Richard 4 (1837) hmmmmmmmmmm
??? Richard WESTBURY b. 1790 or earlier, a son of Joseph & Mary ???
??? OR a 1st wife before Mary ????
??? Are Harriett, Richard & Thomas - children or grandchildren
??? Who is Richard SMITH ???
IGI:
Extracted Record: Birth: Joseph WESTBURY c. Sep 9, 1765 Bicester Father: Joseph
Extracted Record: Marriage: Joseph WESTBURY to Mary LINES 1802 Bicester
Extracted Record: Birth: Joseph WESTBURY c. Nov. 20, 1803 Bicester Father: Joseph Mother: Mary
From IGI, Possible Children of Joseph and Mary (LINES) WESTBURY:
• Joseph c. 1803
• Mary Ann c. 1806
• Eliza c. 1809
• Catherine c. 1811
ALL BICESTER
1851 BICESTER, MARKET END 68 SHEEPS STREET
WESTBURY, Harriett 33
WESTBURY, Richard 31
SMITH, RICHARD 13 RELATIVE b. 1838 Bicester
NOTE: William FRANKLIN lives next door
1861 BICESTER, MARKET END
FRANKLIN, William
FRANKLIN, Harriett
WESTBURY, Richard
1871 BICESTER, MARKET END
FRANKLIN, William 54 (1817) b. Chalford Il Giles, Buckinghamshire Occ: Carrier
FRANKLIN, Harriett 53 (1818) b. Bicester Occ: Ag Lab
WESTBURY, RICHARD BRO-IN-LAW 50 (1821) unm b. Bicester Occ: Ag Lab
BMD: Death Jun QTR 1875 Bicester Richard WESTBURY Age 55
Likely a wrong track here......but posting anyway 'cause you never know and maybe you or someone will have some helpful thoughts/information.
Thanks again, Stef.
lissa
-
Glad I was of help to you --- HA HA!!! Not much return on your investment, I'd say........
-
Thanks for the update Lissa,
Now I'm aware of someone's interest in some other Aston Clinton SMITHs I'll try hard to see if I spot anything on them, whilst working on my lot.
Let us know of any successes you can get from new leads, and (particularly) if you manage to find Thomas' death registration.
I still feel he ought to be buried at one of the churches I checked, and am intrigued why he is not.
Stef.