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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Caithness => Topic started by: aks_aksutherland on Saturday 29 March 08 15:59 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone tell me which families my gg-grandparent's came from? William Sutherland b. abt 1835-1837. On his marriage cert in 1858 his parents are listed as Angus Sutherland & Mary Gunn, both deceased. On his death cert they are listed as William Sutherland & Unknown Gunn. Angus was his first son's name so I believe the marriage cert was probably right.
William's wife was Ann Sutherland b. Feb 18, 1836 in Houstry to Robert Sutherland & Margaret Gunn.
I found them on the 1861 & 1871 Census' but can't figure out which families they came from. Also, they had a child who died at infancy. If there is a name for that child I would like to know.
Thanks for your time and any help you can be!
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Hi AK
Welcome to Rootschat :D
The only William Sutherland of the correct age that I can find in Latheron Parish (which is where you told me he was born) with a father Angus is:
1841
Houstry, Latheron
Parish 38 ED 6 Page 2
Angus Sutherland, 30 - 34, farmer, b. Scotland
Elizabeth, 25-29, b. Caithness
Alexander, 7, b. Caithness
William, 5, b. Caithness
Elizabeth, 2, b. Caithness
Janet, 6 months, b. Caithness
Not found an Angus and Mary yet.
Regards
Gadget
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Baptism 4th October 1835, Latheron
William Sutherland. Parents - Angus Sutherland and Elizabeth Gunn :D
No other Wlliam Gunn's 1934-1838, Latheron with a father Angus.
Gadget
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Thank you so much! I found an Angus and Mary in Clyne Sutherland on the 1851 Census but no son named William. However there was a father named William. It's so frustrating for me because there's no way to confirm.
Thanks again!
Alanna
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No William Sutherlands with a father William and mother, m.s. Gunn 1834-1838, bpt. Sutherland.
I think the bpt that I've found with mother Elizabeth is your best bet. It would be worth following up his siblings to check.
I found a William, servant, Latheron. on the 1851.
Gadget
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The family you show with Angus as the father is the one I have a feeling about because William had a daughter named Elizabeth. I just couldn't understand why William's marriage cert says Mary Gunn and thought maybe his mother's name was Mary Elizabeth, who knows.
William's wife, Ann Sutherland, will probably be easier to trace since I'm sure that her parents were Robert Sutherland and Margaret Gunn. I've already found a marriage cert for Robert & Margaret. Now I'm trying to find siblings.
William & Ann's children's names were Angus b. 1858, Robert b. 1861 (my ggrandfather), Elizabeth b. 1863, and Agnes b. 1870. There was another child who died at infancy that I think must have been between Elizabeth and Agnes.
I sure wish I could find pictures of some of them. The oldest one I have is one of William & Ann's son, Robert and his family.
Thanks for the help!
Alanna
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From IGI
I have the following children for William and Ann in Caithness:
23 April 1861 Robert, Dunbeath
12 march 1863 Elizabeth, Dunbeath
7 Nov 1870 Agnes Alexander, Latheron
Do you have any others?
I now see that you've posted. I think this is the most likely family. If William's mother died when he was young, he might have got confused at his marriage and given the wrong mother's name :-\
I'll have another look around.
Gadget :)
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Thank you!
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Marriage:
19th December 1833 Angus Sutherland and Elizabeth Gunn, Latheron
only other is 1828, Latheron, to a Catheine Gunn
and a Henrietta Gunn, 1833 in Halkirk
Gadget :)
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Ok, what about the Census in Sutherland? Could it be a possibility? Because I sure would like to be set on the family you posted, ha. And do you know how I could find William & Ann's siblings? All I have other than parents and children are the 2 witnesses on the marriage cert: Alexander Sutherland & John Gunn.
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Also, there was an extra Elizabeth Sutherland on the passenger list that William & family was on. She was listed with the family and 37 years old. Is there any way to find out who she was? I can't find her after she got here.
Thank you again, so much!
Alanna
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Ok, what about the Census in Sutherland? Could it be a possibility? Because I sure would like to be set on the family you posted, ha. And do you know how I could find William & Ann's siblings? All I have other than parents and children are the 2 witnesses on the marriage cert: Alexander Sutherland & John Gunn.
Well, William had an elder brother, Alexander, on the 1841.
I think the ones that I've found are the closest that you could get.
Gadget
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Awesome! Thank you!
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Also, there was an extra Elizabeth Sutherland on the passenger list that William & family was on. She was listed with the family and 37 years old. Is there any way to find out who she was? I can't find her after she got here.
Thank you again, so much!
Alanna
Hi again
When did they emigrate?
Gadget
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17 Nov 1874 is the date on the passenger list that ported at New York. I've found William & family in Missouri from that time until death.
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William had a sister named Elizabeth also. I'll bet that's who it was but I don't know where she went.
Thanks,
Alanna
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Yes - aged 2 on the 1841 which would fit her age in 1874 (b.c. 1837-38).
I think you;d have to ask on the emigrants to USA board for info on her :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,164.0.html
I'm having problems locating Ann(e) on the 1841 with parents Robert and Margaret. Have you found her yet?
Gadget
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haha, That's just what I was doing and just finished with no results!! Man... Now I remember why I got so discouraged a couple of weeks ago. Thanks for everything!
Alanna
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From the IGI, Robert Sutherland and Margaret Gunn had the following children in Latheron:
Ann - 18 Feb 1836 (bpt. 1 March 1836)
Margaret - 25 October1839 (bpt. 25 Nov 1839)
Alexander - 23 April 1842 (bpt 2 May 1842)
So they must be somewhere on the 1841 ::)
Gadget
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Think that I might have found them in 1851 but Ann is not there - maybe in service:
Latheron
Parish 38 ED 1 page 14
Robert is a cooper - what does the marriage cert say?
Have a look and see what you think. They seem to have a lot more children than were on the IGI.
Also one with Margaret on her own in Houstry, Latheron:
38 ED 14 page 6
This last one looks more like them.
Gadget
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Oh :'( :'( :'(
It says for Margaret, Pauper abandoned by her husband
Full details:
Margrat, 43, Pauper abandoned by her husband, b. Latheron
Margrat, 10, scholar, b. Latheron
Alexander, 8, scholar, b. Latheron
Adam, 6, scholar, b. Latheron
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Marriage/Banns for Robert Sutherland and Margaret Gunn: Latheron
....both of Houstray... matrimonially contracted 16th May and married 6th June 1834
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The most likely baptism for Margaret Gunn, given she was 43 in 1851, is:
4 May 1808, Latheron. Father Robert Gun
(IGI controlled extraction)
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Hi Alanna
What you failed to mention was that the marriage cert for William Sutherland and Ann Sutherland states that they were cousins germain - usually those whose fathers were brothers or nowadays just 'first cousins'
This means that by researching William's line, you'll find one of Ann's lines or vice versa.
The first sons of both Angus and Robert where called Alexander - worth investigating.
Gadget
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You've been very busy Gadget! Thank you very much. I will have to sort through this in a couple of hours as it is time to head to church. I appreciate you very much!
Alanna
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Oh my! I'm really confused. For one thing, William & Ann being cousins makes me wonder if their fathers were brother and/or their mothers were sisters. For another thing, what does "german or germain" mean on the marriage cert? Was she German?
I'm not sure I understand what you're telling me about Margaret, Ann's mother. Do you think she is the one who was abandoned by her husband? And I don't know what IGI or 38 ED 14 page 6 means. And what do you mean by she might have been "in service"? I'm sorry... Plus, I could be looking for a Sutherland family that has a Robert and Angus as brothers born at least 1818 or earlier, right? Gosh! The father's may not even be related. It may be the mothers. :o
This is what I know for sure. Ann was born Feb 18, 1836 in Houstry to Robert Sutherland & Margaret Gunn. I can't tell where she is until she married William in Houstry, 1858. They had their first child, Angus, in Houstry only 6 weeks after marrying. At that time William was a fisherman. Then their second child, Robert, was born 1861 in Ballachly and William was a farmer. Third child, Elizabeth, was born 1863 in Blackburn? and William was a farmer. Then Agnes was born in 1870 in Houstry and William was a fisherman again. Then in 1874 they sailed to New York. It's smooth sailing for me after that. It's before their marriage that is so rocky, hard to understand and sort through.
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Hi Alanna
i've explained all this - Germain, etc . and the censuses. Read through my messages again.
Gadget
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Thank you,
Alanna
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My eyes are now giving out (eye strain/dry eye. etc.) so I can't help for a while with indexes and images.
You'll have to follow up both Ann and William's siblings and see if you can get some indicators from there. There are 3 parents with the same surname and one a Gunn.
Also, Ann's parents were alive in 1858, so there will be death certs for them. This will also give information to work on.
Gadget
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Ok. I appreciate you so much!
Alanna
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Can someone please tell me what IGI is? Thanks, Alanna
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Hi Alanna
It's the International Genealogical Index on the Family search site:
www.familysearch.org and click on International Genealogical Index on the left hand menu
Gadget :)
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Thank you!