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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: alllegs on Sunday 06 April 08 16:48 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I had totally given up on locating my great great grandfather but after reading someone elses post I have renewed enthusiasm.
This is all I know;
1891 census (I believe this is him anyway....)
3 Clarendon Street, Normanby, Middlesbrough, North Yorkshire
RG12/4017 folio 4 page 1
Residing in the house of John Clark
William Williams, border, 28, single, shearman, born Wales
Also in the household is his future wife
Jane Thomas, servant, 18, domestic servant, born Witton Park, Durham
The next installment of his life is his marriage certificate;
28th November 1891 at Middlesbrough Register Office
William Williams, 25, bachelor, Iron Worker, of 50 Wood Street, Grangetown, Eston, father = James Williams, general labourer.
married
Jane Thomas, 19, spinster, of 50 Wood Street, Grangetown, Eston, father = John Thomas (deceased), craneman.
Both signed their own names and the witnesses were Thomas Lewis and Williams Jackson.
Then the birth of 2 of his daughters, Margaret and Martha Jane in 1892 and 1894.
Then his death on October 20th 1895 at 41 Stayplton Street, Grangetown, Eston, William Williams, male, 32, a steelworks shearman, of phthesis (4 mths), his brother in law was present at his death.
This his 3rd daughter, Rachel was born in 1895.
His wife Jane went on to die in the workhouse in 1902 of a cerebral haemorrhage,, in the occ box it is stated she was the widow of William Williams of Kendal Street, Middlesbrough and I can only find 1 daughter, Margaret on the 1901 census. I have all previous info of Jane and her Welsh roots!
However, I cannot find anything prior to 1891, obviously William Williams is a fairly common name, and with a birth place of Wales doesn't give me much to work with.
Has anyone got any idea of what I can do to find more info about Wm prior to 1891?
Am I flogging a dead horse with this one?
Thanks in anticipation
Legs
xxxx
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what was the name of the brother in law? Does this give us the sisters name?Clutching at straws!
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It was his wife's brother (sorry should have made that clearer) :-\
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Take a look at James Williams lodging with Rachel Thomas Janes mother in 1891 RG12/4016/47/5
He has father James Williams and mother Amy and Brother William Williams they are Steelworkers born Monmouth Nantyglo which is part of Aberstruth acording to Genuki
They are at Rawmarsh Yorks in 1881RG11/4679/41/36 without James junior
James is with them in 1861 at Aberstruth Monmouth RG93997/216/37
I am blowed if I can see them in 1871 yet.
see what you think anyway
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this looks like the same family in 1871 despite the mother's name
Lions(?) Row, Nantyglo, Aberystruth RG10/5316 folio 71 pg 49
Ann Williams head mar 43
Thomas son 21 puddler
Henry son 19 puddler
James son 16 puddler
Martha dau 12
William son 10
John son 4
all born Nantyglo
James & Amy are with married daughter Martha in 1891 in Rawmarsh RG12/3852 folio 83 pg 23, and James still with her in 1901 RG13/4399 folio 24 pg 40
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Hi there,
That James Williams later marries Janes mother Rachel after John (Jane's father died in a crane accident at the mine) and they have a daughter called Amy.
All the Thomas' come from Nantyglo. I can't find a suitable William James combo on the 1971 in Nantyglo though. Although if that comes under Aberystruth (which I wasn't aware, my knowlegde of Wales is not great!) then I guess it is a definate possible
I have located 9 possible combos in 1871 though, all in Wales, ages vary from born 1862 - 1866 to cater for the age difference from the 91 census (29) to the 1891 marriage cert (25), only 9!!!
William Williams, father James (works in tin plate works) , mother Ann abt 1865 Llanguith, Glamorgan, Wales Son Llanelly, Carmarthenshire or
William Williams, father James (ag lab), mother Anna abt 1865 Penboyr, Carmarthenshire, Wales Son Penboyr, Carmarthenshire.
William Williams, father James (labourer), mother Ellen abt 1866 Llanbedr Goch, Anglesey, Wales Son Llanbedr Goch, Anglesey
William Williams, father James (ag lab), mother Hannah abt 1866 Llanstephan, Carmarthenshire, Wales Son Llanstephan, Carmarthenshire
William Williams, father James (puddler), mother Elizabeth abt 1864 Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Trevethin, Monmouthshire
William Williams, father James (labourer, land 10 area), mother Jane (transcirbed as James) abt 1863 Llanwinio, Carmarthenshire, Wales Son Tre Lech AR Bettws, Carmarthenshire
William H Williams, father James (master builder), mother Elizabeth abt 1865 Monmouthshire, Wales Son Monmouth, Monmouthshire
William Williams, father James (joiner), mother Alice abt 1862 Saltney, Flintshire, Wales Son Saltney, Flintshire
William Williams, father James (bargeman), mother Anne abt 1862 Llangyfelach, Glamorgan, Wales Son Llangyfelach, Glamorgan
There are a handful without fathers, with aunts/uncles/grandparents though, I guess he could be one of those..... (knowing my luck he will be!)
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I'm slightly confused...(it doesn't take much!)
The family Osprey has transcribed, am I right in thinking that James (the 21 yr old son) is the James lodging with Rachel Thomas in 1891 who she later marries? If so is he the father of my William? I notice he has a brother called William, or is the brother the one who marries Jane (Rachel's daughter)? Why the heck have thay all got the same name....? How can it be proved one way or the other?
But if James is married to Amy in 1891 then that obviously cannot be the James lodging with Rachel Thomas?
Blimey I can't see the wood for the trees here. I am utterley befuddled. I apologise if I have got it all totally wrong, I think not getting home til 2am on a sat night has rather addled my brain!
Totally lost it, I don't even understand what I have written now! HELP!!!!!
Thank you for bearing with me!
Legs
xxxx
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Sorry to confuse. :-[
The family that Yonderpeasant found has wife/mother Amy. On the 1871 census she is Ann, but the children's names are correct and ages within allowable ranges.
It's James senior & wife Amy, living with daughter Martha in 1891, James the son who married Rachel.
As for proving it, well, um... Marriage cert for Martha to Isaac Jepson to check occupation of James - june qtr 1880 Sheffield vol 9c pg 480? Marriage cert for James?
Finding William's birth cert in Bedwellty won't be easy, or it might be Abergavenny. The registration district of Bedwellty started on 1/7/1861 - prior to that Abergavenny and needless to say several possibles. You could try the local offices - Blaenau Gwent, I think ....
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Thank you Osprey,
It's not you confusing me! I'm just generally confused! :)
So we think that James, son of James and Amy/Ann, married Rachel, they had a daughter called Amy. I can see that is a definate possible.
And their son William married Jane? Am I right there?
But how do I know that that William IS the same one who married Jane?
I guess both James and William's ages fit from the 1871, James born 1855 and William born 1961 then the 1901 for James, born 1855 and the 1891 for William born 1863.
Marriage for James Williams and Rachel Thomas, Middlesbrough, September 1894, 9d 924. After Amy was born! I have emailed the RO to check details of James and Rachel.
I'm still not sure about it all though...
Legs
xxxx
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Ok,
I'm confused again now....
The James married to Rachel on the 1901 states his place of birth was Coal-brook-dale, Monmouth....
Does this make him different to the James in Nantyglo you guys found in 1871?
The James lodging with Rachel in 1891 states his place of birth was Nantyglo.
ARGH!!!
Legs
xxxx
PS just realised that Nantyglo is in Monmouth too, so perhaps Nantyglo and Coal-brook-dale are close by?
Off to Physio now for some light relief! :)
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Hi Legs
I see we back to the dreaded WW god love him, good luck hun, you will get him in the end I bet
Jane ;D ;D
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Lol!
Fingers crossed! Have eventually fond MW's birth, ordered the cert this morning! YAY!!! Hows Priscilla? :D
xxxxxx
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Nantyglo came under the parish of Aberystruth in Monmouthshire. Monmouth is the county town. There's a Coalbrookdale in Shropshire, I think. But Nantyglo means coal river valley/coal brook, so probably just a translation rather than refering to the place in Shropshire.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~familyalbum/kstrubla.htm
http://people.brunel.ac.uk/~simon/blaina/whereis.html
As to proving it's the same William, I think you might need to go sideways and look at the marriage registrations of his siblings to see what their father's occupation is and look for names of witnesses. Getting copies of the original certs from local register offices might help as then you can compare signatures. If you follow this Williams family you might find a link. I haven't spotted another likely William Williams from Monmouthshire in Yorkshire in 1891 or 1901 as yet. There are 2 in Sheffield, both from Ebbw Vale but both are blacksmiths.
What happened to the daughters? Did they go to live with one of William's siblings?
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There is a possible Coalbrookvale....
http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/places?MON,SO190090,5,Coalbrookvale
The following places have not yet had a GENUKI page associated with them:
SO190090 Coalbrookvale , Breconshire
SO190090 Coalbrookvale , Monmouthshire
~ 1 miles S SO190080 Blaina , Breconshire
~ 1 miles S SO190080 Blaina , Monmouthshire
~ 1 miles N SO190100 Nantyglo , Breconshire
~ 1 miles N SO190100 Nantyglo , Monmouthshire
Cas
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thanks for that, Cas - I just assumed it was a translation - I should know better...
:-[
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Osprey, do you mean what happened to William and Jane's daughters?
If so; I have no idea. Except for the oldest daughter, Margaret, she was living with her aunt and uncles Charlotte and Matthew Steel in 1901. Charlotte was Jane's younger sister. I have no idea where Jane, Martha Jane (aka Pattie) or Rachel are in 1901 though.
I have searched for all of Jane's siblings, they are not with them. I couldn't find 1 sister on 1901 or a possible marriage for her.
They are not with maternal grandparents either as Rachel is with James WIlliams and new daughter Amy and John is dead.
After then I know Martha Jane emigrated to Florida, she never married and died in 1977, Margaret married William Hubbard in 1923 and died in 1927 after having 3 kids. Rachel married Patrick Donaghy and had kids.
Perhaps I need to follow James and William's siblings to try and find a link.
Also, whether it be Nantyglo (coal valley/brook) or Coalbrookvale I think they are prretty close thus indicating they could well be the same people.
Thank you all again, I really do appreciate all your assistance!
Legs
xxxx
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just noticed Coalbrookvale on the map I posted earlier
::)
:-[
I've been having a hunt around and haven't spotted any of the girls with the Williams side of the family. There's a possibility for Henry in Llanelli, Carms. Struggling to find John and I don't remember there being any more Williams with Martha & her Jepsons. If all else fails, the 1911 census might help....
:-\
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Ok,
I think this must be Henry in 1891
14 Ralph Street, Llanelly
Henry Williams, 37, Comission agent, born Nantyglo
Harriet Williams, 34, born Llanelly
Mary Williams, 9, scholar, born Swansea
marriage Henry Williams to Harriet Mathews in Llanelly, December 1880
And in 1901
14 Ralph Street
Hanry Williams, 47, Drapers Traveller ??? born Nantyglo
Harriet Williams, 44 born Llanelly
Mary Thomas, foster daughter, 18, dress maker, born Swansea
John Davies, boarder 36, living on own means, born Llanelly
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Hmmmmmm just been looking at Martha Jepson and family in 1901, someone has contacted Ancestry and they have put a warning triangle next to her name indicating she is also known as Martha Williams.....well yes, that was her maiden name but why add they to Ancestry? Wonder if it's possible to trace the person who did this?
This is her anyway and as you say no sign of the Williams' girls.
85 Chapel Street, Rawmarsh.
Isaac Jepson, 44, coal miner, born Rawmarsh
Martha Jepson, 42, born Wales
Harry Jepson, 19, coal miner, born Rawmarsh
Lily Jepson, 14, born Rawmarsh
James Jepson, 11, born Rawmarsh
Laurence Jepson, 7, born Rawmarsh
James Williams, father in law, 80, retired labourer, born Wales
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And this could well be John in 1901....
Visiting the John Davies and family at 37 South Street, Ystradyfodwg (I think!)
John Williams, visitor, 35, coal hewer, single, born Nantyglo
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So that's all the Williams family found in 1901 and no sign of Jane and the girls.....
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Probably a stupid question, but would Jane have been in the workhouse in 1901 (with or without daughters)?
Tried looking for it, but I don't know Yorkshire....know Coalbrookvale though! ;D
Just a point as a follow up to Osprey's point about comparing signatures on certs...the Register Offices around here (Gwent) tend to provide handwritten transcriptions of certs...not always 100% accurate, but very quick (and I have had some truly excellent help from them...can't praise them enough...and no I don't have any shares! ;D). I suppose they might provide a photocopy if you ask...or am I missing the point...won't be the first time.
(And I still can't find James Snr in '71 >:( or did someone find him already? :-[)
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I've looked in the workhouse in Middlesbrough and surrounding towns workshouses and no Jane or kids....
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Hmmmmmm just been looking at Martha Jepson and family in 1901, someone has contacted Ancestry and they have put a warning triangle next to her name indicating she is also known as Martha Williams.....well yes, that was her maiden name but why add they to Ancestry? Wonder if it's possible to trace the person who did this?
I though the yellow triangles are generated automatically, could it be from the head, Wife, Father in Law relationship?
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I'm not sure Deryckjohn, I know I've emailed about incorrect names but can't remember which symbol was placed next to them. I have also had familys with the father-in-law residing with them and there has been no symbol denoting a different name..... Hmmmmmmmm
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Info regarding the James Williams and Rachel marriage record....
James is shown as a General Labourer, and his father is also James Williams. Rachel was a widow at the time of this wedding and her former surname was Edwards.
So this is very likely to be a link to the Nantyglo Williams' and it is definately the Rachel who was Jane's mother.
Can I assume my Williams IS James' brother and also from the Nantyglo clan? I can't see the Nantyglo William anywhere else in 1891.....
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well, that marriage would match with this possible for Jane's parents
Rachel Edwards sept qtr 1865 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 468 with John Thomas on the same page.
She's not entirely consistent in her age, but most women lose a few years on marrying a younger man. ::)
If you've eliminated all other possibilities, it certainly looks a good working theory, but I don't think you can be 100% sure, although it all looks very likely.
Still haven't spotted James Williams senior in 1871, but I did find the family in 1851, where Amy has become Emma - HO107/2447 folio 563 pg 38.
Did you find out Rachel's father's name? There's a few possibles in Merthyr in 1851, but one of them has father called Ebenezer and sister Charlotte. HO107/2459 folio 431 pg 8.
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Yes, that is definately the corrrect marriage for Janes parents, I have that already.
Yes I do know Rachel's parents, but I can't for the life of me remember and if I start looking now I'll burn my dinner!!!
Are we 100% certain that the Nantyglo William can't be found anywhere else in 1891? Or a death record for him?
If that can be ascertained then I'm pretty hopeful that you guys have found MY William!
THANK YOU SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH :)
Legs
xxxx
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No burnt offerings please ;D
I can't see another possbile for that William in Yorkshire or Durham and the only likely death is the one you already have. But if he moved back to Wales.....
I'd like to say it's a definite match, but there is room for doubt.
Still think it will be interesting to see who the girls are living with in 1911. If only we could find them in 1901. I had a look through Nazareth House in Middlesbrough in 1901 just in case, but no sign.
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That is driving me insane too Osprey, I'd love to know where the girls are in 1901 but I have tried every conceivable spelling of their names and a large range of birth dates but to no avail
Just to update on their names;
Margaret Williams born 1892 in on the 1901, living with Aunt and Uncle Charlotte and Matthew Steel
Martha Jane (aka Pattie) Williams born 1893 in Grangetown is nowhere
Rachel Williams born 1895 in Grangetown is nowhere
Jane Williams boen 1872 in Witton Park, Durham is nowhere
Jane died in Middlesbrough Union Workshouse of a cerebral haemorrhage aged 28 on July 8th 1902.
Last known address before the 1901 is 41 Stapylton Street, Grangetown (Margaret and Patties birth certs and Williams death cert)
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Hi allegs - another break from that dissertation? !! :)
Just read through this after you mentioned it earlier today on our shipwreck thread, but have decided that I cant begin to face it tonight!
all I have taken in is that Ann seems to become Amy and then Emma?
Will look again another day!
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They're not at number 41 in 1901 - family headed by Bernard Martin aged 27 are there.
Think she's normally Amy, but appears as Emma in 1851 and Ann in 1871, Amy in 1861, 1881 and 1891. 1871 would be worrying except that all the children match and James senior is consistent with Pembrokeshire, although I think he says Milford Haven & Haverfordwest as his place of birth, but that's just from memory.
I'll carry on my virtual stroll along Stapylton Road...
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Are you having a nice stroll Osprey?
They lived at Wood Street at the time of their marriage, but obviously they moved to Stapylton St prior to their girls births.
On Jane's 1902 death cert it mentions she was the widow of William Williams, Steelworker, formerly of Kendal Street, Middlesbrough. I've been unable to locate Kendal Street though. Also Jane's sister Elizabeth Hewitt (nee Thomas) (who's daughter later moved out to Florida with Martha Jane (Pattie)) was with Jane when she died and she was living at Princes Street, South Bank. No girls with her though.....
Hi Liz!
Did you have a nice lie down? I think Ann/Emma are def Amy as that name is used again for some of the kids/grandkids.
I'm trying to find the marriage of James and Amy now....
Legs
xxxx
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I did have an interesting walk around that enumeration district - good mix of Welsh & Irish families. Waved to Charlotte as I passed...
Does the death cert say Kendal Street, Middlesbrough? I've looked for it in 1881 as it's easier to search then, but with no success. It might take a while to check all the enumeration districts in Middlesbrough.
I had a quick look for James & Amy's marriage - can't say anything looked really obvious. It should be registered Abergavenny as that covered Nanytglo at the time. Perhaps worth trying to find a birth reg first for Henry or Martha for the maiden name - quick phone call to Blaenau Gwent 01495 722305? Pity they didn't name one child something outlandish.
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Well, I have spent ages looking but nothing to show - other than a scrappy piece of paper with a tree scrawled on it.
I cant find Jane, Martha and Rachel in1901 anymore than anyone else.
If Jane died in the workhouse in 1902, i think it would be worth contacting the local record office to see if any workhouse records survive. They might tell you when she was admitted and from where. And whether it was just her or children too - who knows maybe they went in with her but then were farmed out to rellies/ foster homes / whatever when it was clear mum was not long for this life.
what a tangled web though .
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Just checked 1901 for Wales too - dont know if anyone had done that before, if case little Martha and Rachel were taken in by Welsh rellies.
No joy there either.
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Osprey - Jane's death certs says;
When and where died - Eighth July 1902 Union Workhouse, Middlesbrough UD
Name - Jane Williams
Sex - female
Age - 28 years
Occupation - widow of William Williams, Iron Shearer, Kendal Street, Middlesbrough
Cause of death - Cerebral Haemorrhage certified by J Weightman MB
Signiture, description and residence of informann - X the mark of Elizabeth Ann Hewitt, sister, In attendance, 8 Princes Street, South Bank
When registered - Twelfth July 1901
Signiture of Registrar - J Bowes
I have no idea where Kendal Street comes from, according to census' Jane never lived there, nor does it appear on any BMD's, only Wood St and Stapylton St, both in Grangetown.
I wish they'd had a child with an outlandish name too, but as per normal they don't like to make things easy for us do they!! I will contact Blaenau Gwent as soon as my dissertation is done - otherwise Liz'll shout at me!!!
Liz - I did contact someone (can't remember who) about workhouse records, they wanted £30 per hour to do a search but said finding anything more than I know would be rare.....being a student I obv can't afford that right now, esp if the chances of locating something as so low....
Sorry I can't be of more help!!!
Thank you so much for percivering (sp?!)
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No, no, I hope I dont shout!
Why not put a request on Rootschat just to see if anyone happens to be going to the Record Office that covers Middlesbrough, and could ask if they have have any workhouse records for 1901- 1902 ish?
GRR if only we could find Kendal Street middlebrough in 1901
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Good plan Liz, I'll do that now.
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Clutching at straws now
Jane didnt have a big ssiter Mary who married a Thorpe did she?
See RG13 4582 8 7
there is a 6 year old niece, with no name at all, listed with a William and Mary Thorpe.
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=297680.new#new
I'll have a look Liz, I thought I'd found all Jane's siblings except Margaret and none of them had the girls with them.....
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I can't see a Mary Williams marrying a William Thorpe in North Yorkshire on FreeBMD.....
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said it was clutching at straws.
Right - there are 72 enumaration districts in Middlesbrough in 1901
see http://content.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/list.aspx?dbid=7814&path=Yorkshire.Middlesbrough
I've started at 72 and am working upwards, looking for Kendal Street
Anyone want to join in the challenge and start at 1 and work down?
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Blimey Liz - are you sure you don't mind?
I'm gonna have to bail out I'm afriad, not written any dissertation yet today and the dog wants a walk.....
I really do appreciate you doing this for me.
Have fun ;)
Legs
xxxx
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Its not that bad - I'm up to 58 already!
I'll keep on till I'm totally cross eyed then will reporback where I'm up to!
But must be someone who'll start from 1 and work down? Osprey? Where's my friend Carol?
(Didnt think students had dogs!!!!)
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Go on then- what am I doing?
Starting at 1 and working my way upwards looking for Kendal Street.
Must be mad....................don't you dare !!!
Carol :-*
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Upwards in that the numbers get bigger, but it is down the page.
You are a STAR!
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Liz, I've already started from the top - I'm on 31 and no Kendal St as yet. There's a Kent St in district 21.
Aaargh - enumeration district 33 has nos 3 - 69
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'ang about....Kendal Street (or St) doesn't exist in 1901,check out the 1901 website.
http://www.1901census.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
What now oh lord and mistress ( :o)
Has Allegs misread the death cert?
Carol
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sorry - district 37 ! - too excited ::) ;D
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Help i cant keep up!
What's going on in Distr 37,
I was only up to 43!
Carol must be superwoman doing 1-31 in about a minute.
Ahhhhh
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Ooops I take that back I can't spell Middlesbrough.
It's in St Paul's district ,Newport Ward if that makes things any easier.
Carol x
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Carol must be superwoman doing 1-31 in about a minute.
Ahhhhh
Wasn't me it was Osprey :P I tried to think of an easier way to approach this!
Carol x
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OK I'm with it now
District 37 has Kendal Street nos 3-69 in it.
Now I'm losing it again, need to actually seew ho is living there.
'Spect Osprey has that under control already - much more efficient
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:(
They're not in that bit - need to find the even numbers now......
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Well done - I had only just found it (images 34 onwards)
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Blimey I'm so sorry i'm putting you all through this.... you deserve medals!
Love
Legs
(going back to hiding behind the dissertation!) :)
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District 38 house numbers 2-24 and 46-62.
Where's 26-44?
C x
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No one tha looks remotedly like our Jane & co there either
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Very good question, Carol - where are those numbers? What's to the east of that enumeration district?
:-\
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Where's 26-44?
Obviously where Jane is living!!
I cant find those numbers anywhere either. (Not looked 1-31, did someone do them?)
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I did 1 and 2 and then changed tack .
Are we hoping/expecting to find William and Jane living there in marital bliss?
Cos her death cert says widow of.........but we don't know when he died do we?
Gotta wash my hair now,be back later
Carol
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Quite!
3 - 69 are in district 37 - didn't see the family but the enumerator's writing is v. small....
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William died in 1895.
Jane is in workhouse in 1902, dies there then.
Dtr Margaret (bn 1892) is with uncle and Aunt in 1901
Dtrs Martha Jane (bn 1893) and Rachel (bn 1895) and Jane herself cant be found anywhere in 1901.
As janes address at death is given as late of Kendal Street, I was hoping we might find something at that address in 1901 that could be her (if so must be drastically mis-indexed, as they havent been found despite all the usual tricks at searching)
Have I got that summary for Carol right, Allegs?
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Pretty much Liz, 8)
Just to metion that Martha Jane was also known as Pattie.
I was just wondering that maybe perhaps Kendal Street was a red herring? William's death cert says he died at Stapylton Street and Jane's death cert says she was the Widow of Wm Wms of Kendal Street - but the certs say he was always at Stapylton Street....
Perhaps in her anguish of her little sisters death at such a young age, informant and sister, Elizabeth got confused and Kendal Street was said by mistake......?
Just a theory....
Legs
xxxx
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those even numbers we're missing aren't mentioned on the National Archives site. Perhaps someone on the Yorkshire board has the census on disc?
:-\
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Allegs -
Depends how you read the death cert
Is it widow of ......... W W of Kendal Street
or
widow of W W ..........of Kendal Str
first one implying that W W lived at Kendal Str and she is his widow. But we know that isnt right as he was in Staypleton Str
second one implies she is the widow of W W , and she was of Kendal Str. That is how I took it. That between W W 's death and birth of Rachel in 1895 at Stayp. Str, and her going into the workhouse, she had moved to Kendal Street.
If she is not in the workhiouse in 1901 (and shes not, I have checked) and she is not in Kendal Str in 1901 (we have checked apart from the missing even numbers) and she is not in Stayp Str (Osprey has checked) then she must have gone somewhere else (!) between 1895 and 1901 after the census, and gone to Kend Str after the census and before her admission to workhouse.
Phew................... well I think it makes sense!!
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It makes perfect sense (I think!), the death certs reads widow of Wm Wms Iron shearer Kendal Street, Mbro - I read that as if Wm was of Kendal Street, but he isn't, so I guess that at some point between 1895 and 1902 Jane must have been at Kendal Street, but not at the time of the 1901 census... I can't see tehm on the US 1900 census.
So where the heck was she, Martha and Rachel in 1901? On holiday.............drunk in a ditch..........?
I wonder if after the death of hubby she attempted to emigrate? passenger lists? Martha did eventually end up in Florida....
Blackpool is niggling with me too, I just had a chat with my grans 2nd cousin, he is in the USA, his mother, was Evelyn, Elizabeth Ann Hewitts daughter. He remembers his mother and Martha/Pattie talking fondly about Blackpool as it being an escape from the cruel family....he was only small so doesn't remember much but something was said about beatings. Also Jane and Williams daughter Margaret was my great gran, she died very young too, in 1927 when my gran was 6 months old of TB. Gran and her brothers were brought up by their paternal grandparents and their mother and her family were not allowed to be spoken about, it was a taboo subject. Gran only live doors away from her 2nd cousin as a child but never knew he was related. She only knew Aunt Pattie live in the US and sent her gifts of pretty dresses and shoes and jewellery. This all stopped when Evelyn and kids moved out there to live with Pattie/Martha.
More cud to chew over, not that it gives much to work with.....
Thank you all so much
Legs
xxxx