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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: softieh on Tuesday 15 April 08 20:57 BST (UK)

Title: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: softieh on Tuesday 15 April 08 20:57 BST (UK)
Hi everyone

I was wondering if anyone could give me any advice. A while ago i posted a photo in another topic of a man in uniform which was identified as the uniform of the 25th regiment (foot) Kings Own Scottish Borderers. Since then i have discovered an ancestor who is likely to be this gentleman, named Gavin Scott.

I have found Gavin on the 1861 census in Aldershot, Surrey with the rest of the regiment. I then have him on his marriage certificate in 1878 listed as 'private soldier 25th regiment foot'. The next time i am able to find him mentioned is on his daughters birth certificate in 1884, where he is now described as 'engineers timekeeper'. Therefore it looks like he left the army between 1878-1884.

I would love to find out more details about Gavin and his time with the Kings Own Scottish Borderers, so I wonder if anyone could point me in the right direction? On his death certificate in 1892 he is described as 'confectioner, army pensioner'- would there be any chance of me finding his pension records? I had a look on the KOSB website but wasnt entirely sure from this where i would head to first.

Many thanks for your help

Sophie
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Tuesday 15 April 08 21:34 BST (UK)
Hi Sophie

If you read this thread from last week - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,296665.0.html - you can see my interest in the 25th Foot. I will look in a few Muster and Pay Lists for you next time I am in Kew. I am hoping to catalogue the whole of the 25th Foot using WO12 and it doesn't really matter where I start. Given that he must have served at least 17 years it would take a few days to search WO12 completely. But I will try and find when he was discharged as this may give the date of his enlistment.

It would help if you could say where he was married, as their 2nd Battalion was embodied again in 1860, so knowing where he was in 1878 will cut the search time in half. Also where did he settle?

My GG parents were married in Co Cork in 1873 when my GGF was a Corporal. so they may have served together.

BTW...they did not become the KOSB until 1887. In Gavin Scott’s day they would have been known as the 25th Regiment, or 25th Foot. Even though they had the title “King’s Own Borderers” in the 1870s, they probably hadn’t been anywhere near Scotland since the ’45.

They were a cosmopolitan regiment with men from all over the British Isles. Even when the depot was in Chatham (Kent) in the 1840s they had recruiting sergeants out in Glasgow and Manchester, and they spent a lot of time in Ireland.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: softieh on Tuesday 15 April 08 21:59 BST (UK)
Wow, thank you so much for that kind offer Ken, thats wonderful. I would be absolutely thrilled with anything you could turn up for me.

Gavin married in the Calton district of Glasgow in 1878, and his residence was listed as 103 Cubie Street Glasgow.They settled in Glasgow, and this is where he died in 1892.

Thanks for all the background information too, I am extremely grateful.

Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: softieh on Tuesday 15 April 08 22:07 BST (UK)
I should also add that he was born around 1845 incase that helps.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: neil1821 on Tuesday 15 April 08 22:46 BST (UK)
From the LSGC medal roll:

1123 Corpl Gavin Scott, 2/25th Regt
Recommended for LSGC medal (long service & good conduct) on 1 Oct 1880
So he was still with the regiment in 1880

18 years service necessary for the medal which fits with 1861 (ish) as an enlistment date.

 :)
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: softieh on Wednesday 16 April 08 08:52 BST (UK)
Fantastic, thanks Neil!
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: softieh on Thursday 17 April 08 17:23 BST (UK)
This is the thread where i posted a photo of the person I am now sure is Gavin:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,187666.0.html

Today I have obtained a copy of the will of an aunt of Gavin's , who describes Gavin as 'bandsman in the Kings Own Borderers', which fits with what people said in the above thread when i was trying to identify the uniform- i am so pleased as you can imagine! The will was proved 26th Aug 1881, and it also mentions that Gavin was in India at some stage.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: neil1821 on Thursday 17 April 08 20:40 BST (UK)
Quote
The will was proved 26th Aug 1881, and it also mentions that Gavin was in India at some stage.

Sounds resonable.
2/25th Regt were in Ceylon from 1863-68, then India 1868-75, then Aden 1875-79.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Tuesday 22 April 08 23:12 BST (UK)
Hi Sophie/Neil

1123 Corporal Gavin Scott, 2nd Battalion 25th Regt KOB, was discharged on 17 January 1882 at Fermoy. He enlisted in Londonderry, and this was also his intended place of residence. It does not give his date of enlistment nor his parish of birth, or occupation. He was given a £1 2s 11d travel warrant (as far as Belfast only) and £1 advancement on his pension.

I tracked him over a few Muster and Pay Lists:

= April to June 1877 – a Private based in Shorncliffe (Kent) then Aldershot – 10 days furlough (1 to 10 May 1877)

= July to Sept 1877 – Private – Aldershot

= Oct 1877 to March 1878 – Private – Aldershot – good conduct pay increased from 2d to 3d – furlough 1 Dec ’77 to 14 Jan ‘78

= April to Sept 1878 – Private – Aldershot then Plymouth

= Oct 1878 to March 1879 – Private – Plymouth then Devonport – 46 days furlough (15 Dec ’78 to 31 Jan ’79)

= April to Sep 1880 – Devonport – promoted to L/Cpl 31 May – 4d GC pay from 28 August – promoted to Corporal 17 Sept 1880.

= Oct 1880 to March 1881 – Corporal - Devonport then Fermoy (from Dec 1880)

= April to Sep 1881 – Corporal – Devonport – Corporal’s pay increased from 1s 4d to 1s 8d per day on 1st July 1881. He would have also received his 4d a day GC pay. A note says “ This NCO draws pay at 1s 9d a day under provision of Rl Wt (Royal Warrant?) 25 June 1881” It also has ‘Band’ written in red ink. This is the only reference to him being in the band.

I will try and find his enlistment sometime.


Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: softieh on Monday 20 October 08 21:26 BST (UK)
Wow! I must thank you, Ken, for all the fantastic information I have just read that you posted some months ago. I do not know how but I wasn't aware that you had replied, so please accept my apologies.

 I am absolutely thrilled with the information you posted about Gavin Scott,it is incredible! I am just sorry that I didn't find your post before now.

Thanks again to everyone for their help, it is much appreciated.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: kcairns on Wednesday 08 July 09 05:33 BST (UK)
Hi Sophie,

I believe we have a common relative somewhere along the line but I'm unsure of exactly how.

I have a Christina Mills ( nee Scott ) who in 1885 on her death record is listed as dying at 103 Cubie Street.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: regqueenie on Sunday 04 October 09 02:24 BST (UK)
Hello, I am new to this site  Please bear with me if I get 'lost' and cant find your replies. If there are replies and I dont see them (find it hard to manouvre my way round this site)...can you e-mail me Mod edit....Email removed to prevent spam!because this way I will at least see them!
I have a relative called JAMES MILLETT (b: 1836) who on
1861 census is in 'Her Majesty's 25th Regiment, The Kings Own Borderers' (think this was 2/25 regiment)
Is there anyone out there who could find him or at least his army papers ie pensions etc or medals?
I know he was in Dunlo Street Ireland, parish of Kilcloony on 1901 census in Ireland as some children born there in 1877.79 and 1882.  Can anyone help?   Thanks, Regina :-\
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Sunday 04 October 09 12:16 BST (UK)
Hi Regina

My GGF served with the 25th Regiment in the 1870s. They were in Co Cork in 1874 and he settled there in about 1878. James Mullett probably did not win any medals as I suspect he was discharged before the battalion left for Afghanistan.

If you cannot get to Kew you will have to wait for Findmypast to put surviving records online (due 2011). If he served the full 12 years he should have recieved a pension. I have some copies of the muster books for the 25th Foot from that period and will look for him.

RC will send you an email that a post has been added to this thread, some peoplel do not need to email you separately. You should bookmark/save his page as a favorite. Then you can find the thread very easily.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: regqueenie on Sunday 04 October 09 13:38 BST (UK)
Hello Ken

How wonderful, a reply! and when RC sent me ane-mail, I clicked on the blue writing below and it took me straight to this page. I will look how to 'Bookmark' so as to find you again..please do not think me ignorant of your messages in the future, I will be trying to locate you!?

My Great Grandfather James Millett (b:1836) was I believe in Devizes, Wiltshire in Octbober 1874, 'widowed' and a Pensioner' when he married a Mary Jane Owen (b: 1851) -
by September 1875, he was an 'Assistant' at the Wiltshire County Asylum. I cannot trace him in 1881 and assume he was in Ireland in Dunlo Street Ireland as he had a daughter in 1877 and one in 1879 and a son again in 1882 an Edward James Millett. So Ken I think he must have left the army before the time your Great Grandfather went to Cork.?
By 1901 I can find a James Millett (b:1834) in Dunlo, Galway living with the Bannerton family and the Hollywood family as a 'Pensioner' and I think there's a 1911 record of him again in Galway with another family and still Pensioner.

I think his first wife must have been Irish (the Catherine Millett b:1835 on the 1861 census in Frimley Farnham Aldershot) because no trace of James in 1851 or 41 census's and of course no records in Ireland at that time.

One question I would like answering Ken, is the 25th Regiment is not written as this, but as 'Her Majesty's 25th The Kings Own Borderers' is this  the same regiment as yours? it seems too coincidental to be otherwise doesnt it. James was defenitely a Sergeant before he was a pensioner at 38 years of age in 1874 in Devizes, Wiltshire. So there must be some records of his military history before 1874?

A hundred thanks for getting back to me, and perhaps for putting my head in order regarding the regiment. I await in great anticipation..wiggling on my chair in the hope of some breakthrough Ken!      Regina   :)
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Sunday 04 October 09 14:05 BST (UK)

One question ….., is the 25th Regiment is not written as this, but as 'Her Majesty's 25th The Kings Own Borderers' is this  the same regiment as yours?

Hi Regina

Regimental names were really meaningless in your relative’s day, and I usually ignore them until the 1880s. They didn’t have permanent depots, so they would pick up recruits wherever they were. My GGF was born in Norfolk and enlisted in Gosport. As they spent time in Ireland they had a high %age of Irishmen. It changed after the reforms of 1881. They officially became a Scottish regiment, and in 1887 became the Kings Own Scottish Borderers.

So before 1881 they were the 25th Regiment of Foot, or 25th Regiment, or 25th Foot. Some people refer to them as the 25th of Foot. They had Kings Own Borderers in their title since 1801. In the 1870s they were officially the 25th (The York) Regiment of Foot (King's Own Borderers). So I will stick with 25th Regiment or 25th Foot.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: regqueenie on Thursday 08 October 09 13:19 BST (UK)
I noticed Ken on the website the letters 2/25 Regiment of foot.  Does this mean the second battallion of the 25th Regiment of foot, and because it was in 1861, does it mean it was as you stated, the 25 (The York) Regiment of foot. I wonder if he was based in Yorkshire at any time...not that it matters, you have already said the name was not that important before 1881 as regiments were filled with Irish and picked up men wherever they were. i just wondered why he jumped at the York and not the Royal Irish Regiment if he was in Galway at the time. But there again I need to do a course in history so as not to show my ignorance, as his son enlisted in the Connaught Rangers and he may well have also been in them at one point, and oerhaps they were not the same as the Royal Irish (were they fighting for the Queen? oh dear I had better stop asking silly questions and not be so lazy and read a book or two on religion etc in Ireland) anyway, a special thanks for taking the trouble to get back to me earlier Ken and will await anything you may come accross, if you havent lost patience with me that is!   Regina ???
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Thursday 08 October 09 21:03 BST (UK)
Hi Regina

Yes, 2/25 means the 2nd Battalion. They had 'The York' in the title from 1870 to 1881. They had a Depot in York at the time so a number of recruits would have come from that area. But with the railways they could pick up recruits anywhere. As I said my GGF enlisted in Gosport.

Even before the railways, a regiment in Kent would send recruiting parties to Scotland. You cannot use geography to identify a regiment.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: aspin on Thursday 08 October 09 21:44 BST (UK)
I'm skipping through this thread but have you tried writing to the KOSB at Berwick upon Tweed
My grandfather was in the KOSB's and I managed to find out where he might have been in the 1914- 18 war

Regimental Headquarters
The Kings Own Scottish Borderers
The Barracks
Berwick upon Tweed
TD15 1DG

Telephone
01289307436 fax 01289331928
e-mail [email protected]

Elizabeth
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: alasdair_13 on Thursday 12 November 09 12:49 GMT (UK)
I'm trying to find out what happened to an ancestor of mine who I understand to have been a Private in the 25th Foot. John Connor was born circa 1841, and married Marion Darrach in Calton Glasgow 29/6/1868. His address is given on the marriage cert as The Barracks, Glasgow.

They had a duaghter Mary born circa 1870/71 but likely returned to Glasgow. According to later census returns for Mary, she was born in India. John died sometime before 1891 (the year Mary was married).

I'm having real trouble finding out what happened to John as I cant seem to find him on any scottish records after 1868. Did he die in India?

Any help gratefully received.

Alasdair Smith
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Thursday 12 November 09 18:19 GMT (UK)
Hi Alasdair

It was the 1st Battalion that was in Glasgow in 1868, having returned from Canada the previous year. They moved around the British Isles until Oct 1875 when they moved to India. The 2nd Battalion were in Ceylon/India from 1863 to 1876, so it looks as if he was transferred to the 2nd Bn in time for his daughter’s birth

If he died in service they would have routinely destroyed his record after 20 years. But the best next step would be to see if his service record survives in Kew. If you cannot visit and do not wish to pay a researcher, you will have to wait to see if Findmypast put it online (due ‘by 2011’). How it is filed will depend upon when he was discharged – http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm

Most men were discharged 12 years after enlistment, so were aged between the ages of 30 and 35 depending upon when they enlisted.  Service before the age of 18 did not count. His service record will give you an outline of him and his service, but it probably will not give details of his wife and children.

If his record does not survive you can follow his service using the Muster Books (WO12) in Kew, starting with the one for the 1st Bn in 1868 and working backwards until he enlisted; and then working forwards from the 2nd Bn muster for 1870-71 until he dies or is discharged. You may be lucky as they started to include details of the marriage roll – wife’s forename and ages of any children – in the musters from around this period. His first entry may give his parish of birth, and/or where he enlisted and maybe his age.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: alasdair_13 on Thursday 03 December 09 12:55 GMT (UK)
Thanks very much for this information. I may have to wait until this information comes on line as ubnlikely to be abel to get to Kew. many thansk for this info though - very interesting and helpful indeed.

Alasdair
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: catjane on Monday 17 May 10 14:30 BST (UK)
Hi Sophie/Neil

1123 Corporal Gavin Scott, 2nd Battalion 25th Regt KOB, was discharged on 17 January 1882 at Fermoy. He enlisted in Londonderry, and this was also his intended place of residence. It does not give his date of enlistment nor his parish of birth, or occupation. He was given a £1 2s 11d travel warrant (as far as Belfast only) and £1 advancement on his pension.

I tracked him over a few Muster and Pay Lists:

= April to June 1877 – a Private based in Shorncliffe (Kent) then Aldershot – 10 days furlough (1 to 10 May 1877)


= July to Sept 1877 – Private – Aldershot

= Oct 1877 to March 1878 – Private – Aldershot – good conduct pay increased from 2d to 3d – furlough 1 Dec ’77 to 14 Jan ‘78

= April to Sept 1878 – Private – Aldershot then Plymouth

= Oct 1878 to March 1879 – Private – Plymouth then Devonport – 46 days furlough (15 Dec ’78 to 31 Jan ’79)

= April to Sep 1880 – Devonport – promoted to L/Cpl 31 May – 4d GC pay from 28 August – promoted to Corporal 17 Sept 1880.

= Oct 1880 to March 1881 – Corporal - Devonport then Fermoy (from Dec 1880)

= April to Sep 1881 – Corporal – Devonport – Corporal’s pay increased from 1s 4d to 1s 8d per day on 1st July 1881. He would have also received his 4d a day GC pay. A note says “ This NCO draws pay at 1s 9d a day under provision of Rl Wt (Royal Warrant?) 25 June 1881” It also has ‘Band’ written in red ink. This is the only reference to him being in the band.

I will try and find his enlistment sometime.


Ken

Hi there, I'm new - sorry for dragging up an old thread but I have been trawling the internet trying to find some information on an ancestor who, to my surprise, was also a bandsman in the 2/25th in 1879!

He must have known the above Gavin Scott!

I am desperate to track his military history as I'm hoping for some clues about his birth etc. but I am very inexperienced when it comes to military history - to be frank it baffles me!

My ancestor was William John Connell (probably known, and possibly recorded, as 'John').  He was born about  1855 in Athlone, Ireland.  Was a bandsman in the 2/25th in Devonport, August 1879.  Married in Plymouth also in 1879.  Then Carisbrooke, 1881; Woolwich 1891; and Cowley 1901.  I don't know if military records can help me, but it would be fascinating to find out more about him.

If anyone can help me I'd be so grateful.

Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BORIS ATTERBY on Thursday 15 July 10 13:21 BST (UK)
 :) Also apologies for bringing this back to life! My wifes G.G.Grandfather CHARLES ASTON was also in the 25th 
He was a sergeant.
Working from census returns and the birthplaces of his children his movements where very roughly..

ATHLONE, IRELAND 1863 - 1865 ish  his wife Ann was also born in Athlone

MONTREAL, CANADA 1866

PAISLEY, SCOTLAND 1868

1869 ALDERSHOTT

1871 FAREHAM

1874 CAMDEN FORT, CORK

1877 YORK.

I know this is all just based on births, but would be interested to know if it matches other forum members ancestors movements with the 25th!

Cheers,
Boris


Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Thursday 15 July 10 21:45 BST (UK)
Hi Boris

It matches the movements of the 1st Battalion of the 25th Foot. They were in Canada from June 1864 to August 1867, when they moved to Glasgow. He probably enlisted in Athlone. They were in Glasgow until November 1868; Aldershot to October 1869; Portsmouth to December 1870; Gosport to December 1871; Curragh to June 1873; Kinsale to August 1874; Buttevant to October 1875. They then embarked for India.

These places are where the main force was based. Any discrepancies will be because your man would have been on detachment at a nearby town. In the days of small police forces battalions were spread over a wide area to act as a deterrent to lawlessness, especially at election times.

The Depot was in York from c1873 to reorganisation in July 1881, so he was probably there to be discharged. Ireland were given a Scottish regiment in the 1880s, and the 25th Foot/ KOB were given to Scotland. So your man would not have recognised KOSB. In fact from 1870 the full name was 25th (The York) Regiment of Foot (King's Own Borderers).

My GGF enlisted in the 25th in Gosport and was a Corporal when he married in Kinsale in 1874. He became a Sergeant shortly afterwards. You should check the regimental BMDs on Findmypast births as events in the UK are often included. Plus the indexes to Irish BMDs are coming online - http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#c=1408347;p=collectionDetails;t=searchable

And also some church records - http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/index.html

http://www.irishseashipping.com/heritage/subsite/eire/fortmeagher/fortmeagher.htm

Fort Camden was renamed Fort Meagher in 1922.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BORIS ATTERBY on Saturday 17 July 10 23:51 BST (UK)
Hi Ken,
Cheers for that I got his service record tonight from 'findmypast' will have a good read through tomorrow! He appears to have had 20yrs service with the 25th.
Thanks again,
Boris.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: bernice52 on Saturday 13 November 10 03:14 GMT (UK)
Hi sophie
Hope you are still interested in this 25th regiment, we have a gt gt grandfather Patrick Healy who enlisted in the 2nd batt in Athlone Ireland in 1860, stationed at Aldershot by xmas, had a child in august 1861 at Shorncliffe Kent, another daughter born in the Edinburgh barracks in June 1863 (so they were stationed in Scotland then) & also June 1867 at Fulwood barrracks Preston Lancashire before he was discharged.
we are hoping to get his birth date also looking for a picture of a corporals uniform from this period

He served 21 yrs with earlier postings in the 67th East Hampshire Regiment of foot.
hope someone can help  with  years between 1842 -1867 please
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: mcleana on Wednesday 22 December 10 11:19 GMT (UK)
Hi

Looking for information on a Richard Somerville born in glasgow around 1805. I think he served from 1822 to 1845 was stationed at Brecon Barracks and was a Colour Sergeant in the 25th Regiment of foot.  Any help or pointers would be appreciated.

regards
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: bernice52 on Wednesday 22 December 10 20:24 GMT (UK)
Hi boris,
I have a similar comparison with Patrick Healy in 2nd batt 25th foot
enlisted Athalone March 1860 married Farnham Xmas 1860 daughter born Aug 1861 shorncliffe camp hospital, dau born Edinburgh Barracks June 1963 & another dau born Fulwood Barrakcs June 1867, which differs from account of being posted in Canada? he was discharged 1868. so the time frame for other members dont suit
I would be interested to know if they went overseas between 1863 -1867
to search for another birth
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: PJB on Thursday 23 December 10 21:54 GMT (UK)
I have Francis Staley "2nd Battalion 25th regiment of foot

He was 5' 5 1/2" and 18 yrs old when he joined and 5' 5" when he left.  He had a fresh complexion, brown hair and blue eyes, 34" chest and was in good condition. 

Discharge no. 1022, 12. Nov 1878,  18 years 144 days, and was abroad for 12 2/3 years, of which 8 were spent in the East Indies.  Pension.

His conduct was very good.  He had 4 good conduct badges, no medals, no school certificate.  8 times in Regimental defaulters' book, once tried by court martial, never wounded.

He had gonorrhea twice and syphilis once.

He was in Kandy, Dum Dum and Aden, which he left in 1875 on the "Euphrates".

He had a mark like a face on the back of his left hand.  He left to live in Stockwell Street, Derby.


I must try and find out what the court martial was for !!!
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: edward4belle on Friday 21 January 11 00:15 GMT (UK)
If you look at the collar dog left hand side just under the chin in the picture it looks like Edinburgh Castle which is the collar dog for the KOSB. Also the striped sholder bars this reminds me of the type worn by members of the band also the tassles on the left hip (i cant see a sword)  but it looks very much like the decoration on a bugle which I had at Shorncliffe Barracks Folkstone in the 1970's while serving as a boy soldier in the KOSB's  I was a member of the Band (just to skip long periods off standing to attention). I do know that the KOSB's had a few tours at Shorncliffe Barracks. Folkstone Kent
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: selby1977 on Wednesday 02 March 11 19:15 GMT (UK)
My ggggf was in the 25th foot regiment he was from North Charlton Northumberland he had a son Ettrick born in Bangalore India in 1851 was it likely that wives and children would also be in India with soldiers?? My gggm was born in 1860 in Chatham. John Scott was discharged unfit in 1855 but enlisted 1833 any one know where he would have spent that time?? Barbara
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Thursday 03 March 11 06:08 GMT (UK)
Hi Barbara

If you know when he enlisted/was discharged, have you found his service papers on Findmypast?

India was a garrison posting rather than a campaign posting so a certain number of wives went with the regiment. The higher a man's rank the more chance he had of taking his family with him. In his time if there were too many wives wanting to go they would draw lots. Later in the century men had to get permission to marry. But once 'on the strength' - ie the married roll - the family had a right to go with the soldier.

The army did not record wives and children on the married roll until much later. If you haven't found their marriage you have to consider that they married in India - which you can check. She may have been the widow of a soldier who died. There was no widow's pension then. So if she did not re-marry a widow would be given passage home. But this often led to the workhouse.

Ken

Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: selby1977 on Saturday 05 March 11 16:50 GMT (UK)
Hi ken Yes I did find it on find my past quite by surprise I was looking for son Ettrick and seeing he was born in Bangalore I wondered was it a transcription error but found his father John Scott in the military records. It was quite out of the blue.  I had wondered why my greatx2 grandmother was born in Chatham 1855 but john was from Northumberland and the family had returned to the North East in the 1861 census- but i see Chatham was a depot for the 25th foot. I live quite close to Berwick Upon Tweed so will pay a visit to the barracks- when did the 25th foot become KOSB?
I find the social history and how people lived and moved around at that time fascinating!

Barbara
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Saturday 05 March 11 17:55 GMT (UK)
Hi Barbara

They became the King's Own Scottish Borderers in 1887. They were nominally the King's Own Borderers before then. They were 'given' to Scotland in 1881 to balance one of their regiments going to Ireland. There were no permanent depots until 1873, so all regiments would pick up recruits as they moved around. Or in times of short supply send recruiting parties far and wide.

Chatham was often used to house the depot when regiments had battalions in India. So he was probably discharged there and decided to stay.

They only had one battalion in his time with them. So after training he would have served:

= West Indies until April 1836
= Ireland (Cork, Templemore, Limerick, Cork) until May 1839
= Devonport until December 1839
= Cape of Good Hope until August 1842
= then India, until he was returned to Chatham for discharge.

Ken


Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: selby1977 on Saturday 05 March 11 18:50 GMT (UK)
Thanks for that information it is really useful and fits with information i have -John married Cathrine who was born in Ireland Their first child Elizabeth was born in Exeter 1841. Ettrick was born 1851 in Bangalore and Jane in Chatham 1855 their fourth Child William was born Bedlington Northumberland 1860.

Thankyou again for your help
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: mag106 on Tuesday 29 March 11 17:22 BST (UK)
I'm so pleased to have found this thread! 
Have my ggf's service record in 25th from FindMyPast and details of wife (Jane) and children from muster rolls & pay lists.  He was James SULLIVAN, enlisted at Chatham in 1849 aged 14 and discharged from Buttevant in March 1875.  What I can't find is a marriage record although in the pay lists it was quoted as 27 Feb 1855.  I guess it would have been in India but don't know where to look.
The other problem is that James' youngest child Frederick SULLIVAN (my gf) was supposedly born in Buttevant in August 1875, five months after James was discharged to live in Cardiff. Would the birth still have been 'on the strength of the army'? Again,I can find no record.  Any ideas, anyone?
Maggie
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: littlevillager on Tuesday 26 July 11 19:26 BST (UK)
I'm looking for help in tracing a distant relative, Scott McGregor (Regiment Number 2894) who served in the Kings Own Borderers in Ireland from 1880 to 1885.  While in Ireland, I know he served in Fermoy, Dungarvan, Kinsale and Dublin.  He was promoted to Sergeant and posted to the Regimental Depot in Berwick in April 1885.  He was discharged in October 1885 on the grounds of ill-health and indicated on his discharge papers that he was going to live in Aberdeen with his mother following his discharge.  However, I can't find out what happened to him after discharge.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me where I might look.  I've looked up the Muster Pay Rolls but they only go up to 1884. 

Would there be pension records which would indicate what happened to him after discharge?
I believe he may have died shortly after discharge (within a year or two), would pension records indicate when a pension ceased to be paid to a deceased?

Any help would be gratefully appreciated.  I've hit a brick wall and don't know where to look for information now.

Thanks,

Jonathan O'Donovan.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Wednesday 27 July 11 09:23 BST (UK)
Hi Jonathan

A copy of his death certificate (or at least a dated note to stop payment) would almost certainly have been in his pension file at some point. It would also have told you where he received his pension - pensioners were allowed to move after discharge.

However the pages that exist today represent only about 10% of what would have been in there. Over the years they have been culled to save space. The alternative would have been for the NA to only have kept a 'representative sample' of (say) 2% complete files.

Muster Books do not contain information after the discharge as they ceased to be the responsibility of the Paymaster.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: littlevillager on Wednesday 27 July 11 19:21 BST (UK)
Hi Ken,

Many thanks for the information.  Looks like I'll have to try elsewhere to see what became of him.

Jonathan.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: debsmorgan on Wednesday 21 September 11 19:32 BST (UK)
Good Evening

My relative was John Langtry who is listed as a Sergent in the 25th, on the 1871 Census, whilst they were billetted at Fort Fareham in 1871.  His wife is listed as Mary Langtry (actually Mario Antonia) who was born in Gibraltar.

With them are various children, born in Canada, Scotland and Malta and all places in between! 

I wuld be so interested to learn more about John Langtry (born Shrewton, Wilts) and any advice would be very useful.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: linds1612 on Saturday 24 December 11 17:55 GMT (UK)
Brilliant thread and really interesting.
I am trying to trace two family members in the 25th regiment of foot/Kings Own Scottish Borderers.
I have birth certificate of GGGdad Thomas Adam Hilliard Lindsay from 1869 with father's occupation listed as 'lance corporal 25 regiment of the line'.GGGdad is Adam Lindsay b 1844 in Ireland (according to census).
I have a census trace of the family in 1871 at Fort Rowner with the 25 Regiment.

Searches on Findmypast military are turning up nothing for either of them. We are in possession of medals for Cpl T Lindsay No 2688 KOSB.
I am new to this so the question I would ask is.... do I need to use the searches better or I am better of visiting Kew at some stage?
Are muster rolls the wayforward? I have a hunch that Adam Lindsay died on service in India and his wife returned home with two children.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: sweenytwo on Thursday 05 January 12 12:29 GMT (UK)
Thanks for that information it is really useful and fits with information i have -John married Cathrine who was born in Ireland Their first child Elizabeth was born in Exeter 1841. Ettrick was born 1851 in Bangalore and Jane in Chatham 1855 their fourth Child William was born Bedlington Northumberland 1860.

Thankyou again for your help

John Scott is my gt gt gt grandfather so we must be related do you know what happend to his son Ettick as I cant find him anywhere after 1881 in the Census Attached is Photo of Jane Scott my gt gt Grandmother

IanF
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: linds1612 on Friday 06 January 12 13:01 GMT (UK)
Message for Ken KM1971
Many thanks for your message. Unfortunately I can't reply to you!
What is the best way to contact you?

Thanks again

Andrew
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Saturday 07 January 12 10:16 GMT (UK)
Hi Andrew

If you acknowledge this information, and you will be able to send a personal message - you need to post three times:

Ancestry have the medal rolls for T Lindsay for:

= Sudan (1884-86)
= India (1895)
= India (1897-98)
= Boer War

For the first three he was in the 2nd Battalion, and for the Boer War he was in the 1st Bn. For the Sudan he would have also received the Khedive's Star.

Added...It was the 1st Bn of the 25th in Fort Rowner in 1871

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: linds1612 on Saturday 07 January 12 18:39 GMT (UK)
Hello Ken
That is great work thank you.
Just to confirm I have attached image of the medals (you might like to see).

I would really like to find out more about his service and that of his father, Adam Lindsay, who was part of that 1st bn at Fort Rowner in 1871.

Thanks again.

Andrew

Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: aspin on Saturday 07 January 12 20:23 GMT (UK)
My grandfather was a KOSB and had two medals
When I was a silly teenager i cut the ribbon and wore the medals as a necklace wished i hadn't i only have one now
I gave my brother the other one I did say today while were talking I would take them back to Berwick Museum to get them put back together again

Elizabeth
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Sunday 08 January 12 08:20 GMT (UK)
Hi Elizabeth

If you describe the medal(s) or better still post a picture we can tell you which replacement ribbon to buy. They are on Ebay for a few pounds or at a local medal fair. Although you will have to pay to get in.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Sunday 08 January 12 08:40 GMT (UK)
Hi Andrew

Very nice, and still with original ribbons - which you should try and preserve. Although he would be on a charge for wearing them like that. Firstly the monarch's head always shows, and they are worn British first (closest to the heart) foreign second.

And in the order of the campaigns. So Egypt, India, QSA, Khedive's Star.

The separated clasps shows that he received them at different times, and it is lucky they have not been lost. Once soldiers had left the regiment it was hard for them to get them officially revitted, so they would often get the wife to join the clasps with cotton. After about 10 years this broke, so then the old soldier would join them with wire. And 20 years later this broke and the clasps were usually lost.

What is the red material poking out from behind the Egypt?

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: linds1612 on Sunday 08 January 12 10:58 GMT (UK)
Hi Ken
I've posted the reverse of the medal set that shows the red material.
Is that a bit of home repair work?

I've tried to reply to you regards your muster rolls message but not sure if you have got them?

Regards

Andrew
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Sunday 08 January 12 11:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Andrew

Nice set of three different QV heads. Swivel them around and then you only have the order to worry about.

I was hoping it was a piece of his tunic. I do not know what he used. I cannot think of another medal ribbon.

Yes, I got your PM last night. I will reply later.

btw..your 1141 Sergeant Adam Lindsay served with my GGF.

Added
...There was also a 1041 Sergeant Thomas Lindsay in the same battalion. I wonder if he was the father of 2688 Thomas

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: linds1612 on Sunday 08 January 12 16:25 GMT (UK)
Hi Ken
From census records and dates of birth I suspect that Thomas Lindsay 1041 was the elder brother of Sgt Adam Lindsay 1141 (GGGF) who was the father of 2688 Thomas Lindsay (I have birth certificate, my GGF).
1871 census records show both 1141 Adam Lindsay and 1041 Thomas Lindsay as being Irish born.

I presume that you have discovered their army numbers from muster rolls?

Thats great that they served with your GGF. You must be well aware of their service details judging by your expertise?

I look forward to your PM.

Thanks again

Andrew
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: vicky832 on Thursday 12 January 12 14:00 GMT (UK)
Hello,

I'm new here and was wondering if any of you could help me with my ancester, David Edmondson, who was in the 1st Bn of the 25th in Canada in 1866.  He stayed in Canada after that and did receive his Canada Campagn medal.

According to his marriage notification he was born in 1835 in England, but I can't find anything more about this. 

My question is: Can anyone find any records of when he joined or where he was born or any other family information from his military records?

Here is a copy of his medal record.

Thanks in advance.  :)
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: linds1612 on Sunday 29 January 12 11:39 GMT (UK)
Morning Ken

I'd just like to thank you for your prompt results on your searching on my behalf.
I am absolutely delighted with your findings and I would heartily recommend your talents to anyone else who can't make it down to Kew.

Things are certainly a bit clearer now in my researching.

Many thanks again.

Andrew.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BonnieDownUnder on Saturday 22 September 12 04:23 BST (UK)
Hello, I have just registered into this site so please bear with me as a first time user.  ???
I am amazed at the information regarding the KOSB, especially info so expertly given by KM1971 ... many thanks.

My ggf Henry Burghart bc 1848 d.1912 was one of the longest serving in the KOSB clocking up a staggering 43 years and 221 days service.  I have his enlistment and discharge papers from FindMyPast however I feel that there are page/s missing from his service record.

Henry (along with three younger siblings) were placed into a Workhouse in Marylebone after their father died and mother deserted the family and it was from here that he enlisted at Westminster into the 25th foot, 1st battalion, 18 Sept 1862.  I think his service number was 906 however this was changed to 2434 when they became the KOSB.  It shows Henry was 14 but was more like 13 and a half.  He was sent to Gosport and started life in the Army as a 'Drummer Boy'.  On his enlistment papers there was a question:  " Did you receive a Notice, and did you understand its meaning?"  His answer, Yes.  Does that mean he was conscripted into the Army?  Another question: " (words missing) ... what Bounty and Kit did you enlist?" Answer "a free Kit".  Not sure what this means.  Anyone have any clues?

His record shows he was Home Base 19 Sep 1862 to 11 Jan 1863, Malta 12 Jan 1863 to 27 Jun 1864, Canada 28 Jun 1864 - 20 Aug 1867 and Home Base 21 Aug 1867 to 27 Apr 1906.  He was awarded in 1900 the Canadian Service Medal and when he left the Army in 1906, the silver medal for Good Conduct and Service.  Unfortunately I don't know what happened to these medals; my grandfather had left home ten years prior to his father passing away, in 1912, so they may have been passed to his one son who was still residing in England at the time however it would seem that they have been lost down through the following generations.

I was under the impression that the 1/25th had a permanent base in Gosport but after reading KM1971 message of 15 Jul 2010 they sure moved around the countryside.

Henry was made a Corporal in 1872 and the following year moved to York.  On 7 Mar 1874 he became a Sergeant and in 16 May 1876 he was re-engaged at York and married 5 months later to a Martha Cook.  In May 1880 he was again promoted becoming a Quarter Master Sergeant.  On his marriage certificate, 1876 and birth certificate in of my Grandfather in 1880, it shows Henry as being in the 6th Brigade.  According to 'The martial annals of the city of York' by the Rev. Caine, the 1st and 2nd Batt. 25th Foot, 1st and 2nd Batt. 14th Foot (6th Brigade Depot) moved into the New Barracks at Fulford York in May 1880 and departed in July 1881 which matches Henry's army record. 

The family lived onsite at the Berwick-on-Tweed Barrack quarters until at least 1901 when they are listed on that census living in a flat in Berwick township.

Sorry for my long winded story but I am also interested to know what pay a 'Boy Drummer', if anything, he would have received and also as a Corporal, etc. etc.,

Lastly there is a mystery regarding Henry's supposedly army box that a distant cousin has.  On the outside on the front is printed 'Quarter Master', then underneath '2nd West York's Reg.'.  The story goes that Henry's wife Martha gave it to her sister prior to the family moving to Berwick in 1881 however I can't see how it could have been his box as I am under the impression (though could be totally wrong) that the 2nd West York's didn't come into being until later in 1881

Look forward to hearing in due course from those interested (and have readed this far), your replies and hopefully I will have worked out how to get back into this site to see same.
Many thanks Bonnie 









Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Saturday 22 September 12 13:38 BST (UK)
Hi Bonnie

Welcome. When you have posted twice more you can PM me your email address. You cannot post email addresses on the forum due to the risk of spammers.

Boy and Drummer are separate ranks. Henry enlisted as a Boy (pay was 8d a day at the time) and promoted to under-age Drummer (probably on 9d) then Drummer proper (on 1s 1d). This was 1d more than a Private. Looking at his record it suggests that his DoB was 18th September 1848. In addition he received 1d a day extra for each Good Conduct ‘badge’. The badge was actually a stripe (chevron) worn above the right cuff (before c1881) and on the left cuff after that date. The problem with such a long service is that the regulations would have changed a number of times. Sometimes the pay of Corporals and above had GC pay incorporated into the basic. At other times it was separate.

When he enlisted it was probably for ten years after the age of 18. In order to be awarded a pension a man had to serve a second ten year term. Under-age service did not count. Once he had re-enlisted he received another 1d a day. Henry appears to have re-enlisted just before his first engagement was up.

In addition to his Long Service Good Conduct medal and his Canada General Service medal (with Fenian Raid clasp 1866) I can tell you that he received the MSM (Meritorious Service Medal) with £5 gratuity in January 1912. In peacetime this was a kind of super LSGC medal usually issued after discharge. My GF received his when he was in his 70s. I can also tell you that (as of 1995) his medals were in the collection of GS Moss, New York.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BonnieDownUnder on Saturday 22 September 12 23:08 BST (UK)
Hello Ken
Re Henry Burghart:  It was such a lovely surprise to open my emails this morning and find your reply.  Thank you so much for a speedy answer, it is very much appreciated and with so much wonderful information.

Sorry Ken, but I have a heap more questions ...

Not knowing 'Army speak', I am having problems understanding his military records - (the man with the 'red pen' must of been someone of importance!!) so thanks for clarifying 'Boy' and 'Boy Drummer' roles, etc..  What role would a 'boy' do in the Army?  I am thinking along the lines of a 'glorified servant' to the upper ranks, am I on the right track?

I too thought that Henry was born on 18 Sep 1848 however I have trolled the GRO Birth's registry through that year (also 1849) and nothing remotely comes up.  There are conflicting ages shown for him on census records (no surprise here) from 1851-1901 however the 1911 record (when the family was living at 9 Blandford St. Ferryhill) Henry was very precise in showing his age as 62 years and 2 months, which makes his birth date in Feb of 1849.  Actually it was from this record I was then able to find his wife's (my ggm) birth registration.  Her maiden name was Cook but her birth was registered as Cooke.  Also, he was spot on with the ages for his 3 children.

Also I am mystified about him being in the 6th brigade.  Was that part of the 1st and 2nd Batt. of 14th Foot or 25th?

Would I be correct in saying that Henry would have been included in the regiment's movements, ie Curragh, Kinsale and Buttevant after their move to York in 1873?  I wonder why Henry didn't go off to India;  this is rather interesting as I heard a family tale that he served there.  Odd?  Also, would his regiment have been based at Lowther Street in York prior to their move to the New Barracks in Fulford in 1880?

Thanks also info about being awarded the MSM;  it was timely when he received this as he passed away on 06 Aug of that year, and I am amazed that you found that a GS Moss in New York had his medals back  at least, in 1995 - how the heck could one track down where they might be now?

Sorry to bombard you with so many questions, I really do appreciate all your help.
Thanks again and regards Bonnie
Have attached a photo of Henry ca 1894




Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BonnieDownUnder on Sunday 23 September 12 04:50 BST (UK)
Hello Jim,  I have just received an email from an expert who collects/sells military medals.  He told me that George Moss died in the 1990's, many of his medals were sold by a Pennsylvania medal dealer called John Laidacker who sadly has also passed on.  He has suggested, which I have done, put a listing on the 'medal tracker' site ... one never knows, I may get to see them some day.
Thanks Bonnie
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Sunday 23 September 12 10:22 BST (UK)
Hi Bonnie

I would put a question on the British Medal Forum. They have members from North America and someone should know how these collections were sold off after the deaths.

I got the information from his entry in a MSM book written in 1995 which is dedicated to GS Moss. If you PM me with an email address I will send you the listing.

The entry also says that he was born in Athlone. But I see from his record that it says Marylebone, and on page two it says that he had his medical in Athlone. The MSM book was written by Ian McInnes, so again someone on the BMF may know if he is alive, and is able to tell you his source.

I found Henry in the 1851 census and also possibly his father and GF (Frederick). The latter being in the 1841 as being born in foreign parts c1782. This fits with an entry in the Waterloo medal roll for another Henry in the Kings German Legion. You may already have this.

Between 1873 and 1881 they had Brigade Depots. The 14th Foot replaced the 25th in the 6th Brigade Depot. But there may have been some overlap. The 14th Foot became the West Yorkshire Regiment.

btw.. they were the KOB until 1887.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BonnieDownUnder on Sunday 23 September 12 22:49 BST (UK)
Hi Ken, Thanks again your quick response.  I am not sure how I 'PM' my email address to you - will try and figure it out - and for the suggestion of listing info on the British Medal Forum, will do so later today.

The 1851 census at 61 Wells St., that you found shows his father George John Frederick Burghart and wife Margaret along with Henry's two older siblings.  F. Burghart is his grandfather, Frederick John George Burghart.  Have found from FJGB's naturalization papers, in 1830, that he was born in Alverdissen, Prussia which is now part of modern day Germany and arrived into England in 1806.   FJGB was one of the top Savile Row tailors of his time and became extremely wealthy however he lost the lot in the mid 1840's.

The Henry Burghart in the Kings German Legion entry in Waterloo - we don't know how he fits in.

All data I have shows that my ggf Henry was born in Middlesex, England - we think either at Wells Street or 5 Market Street where his elder sibling was born however as previously mentioned, haven't found a birth registration nor a baptismal record for him.  If his medical was undertaken at Athlone, I am presuming that the 1/25th foot was based there at the time?

You mentioned the 14th Foot became the West Yorkshire Regiment.  When Henry was at the Workhouse in Marylebone, (C1861) also there was a Thomas West.  It seems Thomas was also conscripted into the Army about the same time as Henry as he is with the 1/25th at Fort Rowner when the C1871 was taken. When Henry married in 1876 at Fulford, York, Thomas was one of the witnesses at his nuptials.  I don't know what happened to Mr West as he isn't on the C1881 at York at the New Infantry Barracks nor did he join the KOSB.  Have a thought that the army box may of been his?

Thanks again Ken and will try and sort how to do the PM ... Bonnie
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BonnieDownUnder on Monday 24 September 12 09:28 BST (UK)
Hello Ken .... Well I think  ???  I have sent a PM to you correctly.  Also registered on the British Medals Forum and await their confirmation.  Thanks Bonnie
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: alasdair_13 on Tuesday 25 September 12 13:07 BST (UK)
I've been away from this here a while but recently had time to do a little more digging and have uncovered some more facts and dates.

Marion Darroch did indeed marry John Connor, a private in the 25th foot in Glasgow in 1868. From various sources I've pieced together their movements. Seems they went to possibly Aldershot where they had a son, John, in 1869 then went to India. Soon after, my ancestor, Mary was born in 1871, followed by Thomas (1873 in Naini Tal) and William (1877 in Fyzabad).

John Connor dies 3 September 1877 in Fyzebad - possibly as a result of a cholera epidemic that was sweeping the area then.

Marion clearly stays in Indoa and takes up with Thomas Septimus Woodman, also  private in 25th foot, and she marries him 11/10/1878 in Fyzebad. They are in the 1881 census at the military barracks in York (with her children by John Connor, all called Woodman).

They later appear on the Scottish census of 1891 in Kinning Park, Glasgow where Thomas has clearly retired from the army and they have other children.

Still not sure of there is anything more on John Connor's life or history to be gleaned or iof that is about the limits of possible knowledge.





Hi Alasdair

It was the 1st Battalion that was in Glasgow in 1868, having returned from Canada the previous year. They moved around the British Isles until Oct 1875 when they moved to India. The 2nd Battalion were in Ceylon/India from 1863 to 1876, so it looks as if he was transferred to the 2nd Bn in time for his daughter’s birth

If he died in service they would have routinely destroyed his record after 20 years. But the best next step would be to see if his service record survives in Kew. If you cannot visit and do not wish to pay a researcher, you will have to wait to see if Findmypast put it online (due ‘by 2011’). How it is filed will depend upon when he was discharged – http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm

Most men were discharged 12 years after enlistment, so were aged between the ages of 30 and 35 depending upon when they enlisted.  Service before the age of 18 did not count. His service record will give you an outline of him and his service, but it probably will not give details of his wife and children.

If his record does not survive you can follow his service using the Muster Books (WO12) in Kew, starting with the one for the 1st Bn in 1868 and working backwards until he enlisted; and then working forwards from the 2nd Bn muster for 1870-71 until he dies or is discharged. You may be lucky as they started to include details of the marriage roll – wife’s forename and ages of any children – in the musters from around this period. His first entry may give his parish of birth, and/or where he enlisted and maybe his age.

Ken

Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: rohanryan on Saturday 03 November 12 07:11 GMT (UK)
Maggie,

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGVW-DS3

I think this is the record you are searching for.

Rohan
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: rohanryan on Saturday 03 November 12 07:31 GMT (UK)
My gt gt grandfather John Ryan was a Corporal in the 25th till Feb 1855. After this he was recruited by the 74th. Where can I find information on the movements of the 25th?

Prior to the 25th, he was in the 56th Regiment.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Saturday 03 November 12 08:55 GMT (UK)
Was his number in the 25th Foot 1712? If so I can tell you in qtr2 1850 he was in Bangalore, Madras. He was a Private then. If you say when he transferred to the 25th I can probably tell you more.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: rohanryan on Saturday 03 November 12 09:30 GMT (UK)
Thats right. John Ryan's number in the 25th was 1712.
Prior to joining the 25th, he was part of the 56th with number 1803. 

Unfortunately, I do not know when he joined the 25th. (I know it was before 2 Feb 1853. He was part of the 25th when he got married.)

3721 was his regimental number in the 74th. (He volunteered from the 25th Foot on 1 March 1855.)
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Saturday 03 November 12 14:46 GMT (UK)
I have found the following for him:

= Transferred from 56th Foot on 1st April 1842 to Depot of 25th at Gravesend. Given number 1712. On 21st April he sailed on the “Francis Smith” for India. Landed 8th August after 110 days at sea. While at sea pay for a Private was reduced to 6d a day as the regiment provided food.

= 9th August to 30th September 1842 – location unknown
= 31st October to 31st January 1843 - on detachment at Arcot
= 28th February – at Seringapatam 
= 31st March and throughout Q2 1843 he is a Private in Cannanore, Madras

- He was promoted Corporal on 1st February 1844 -

= In Q2 1844 he is a Corporal with the 25th in Cannanore, Madras


So he must have been demoted back to Private by 1850. The 25th remained in India and Ceylon until 1855. The 74th stayed on in India, so he probably requested a transfer so he could remain in India. If he managed to be promoted again the life in India for NCOs was quite good as he could have employed a couple of servants.

The 74th Foot were involved in the Indian mutiny of 1857-58, but I cannot find him in the medal rolls.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: rohanryan on Saturday 03 November 12 14:58 GMT (UK)
Ken,

That is amazing information. Thank you. What is the source of all this information?

Rohan
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Saturday 03 November 12 15:15 GMT (UK)
My GGF served in the 25th Regiment so I have a large collection of musters for the regiment. But still only covering about 10-15% of the 19th century.

The period 1842 -1843 is particularly complex for the regiment, so I have more coverage than for other periods. The service companies were in South Africa and were ordered to India. While the Depot moved Brecon, Winchester, Gravesend and Chatham; received a large reinforcement from other regiments before sending them in 4-5 ships to India. The musters say 'volunteers' but I doubt that they had much choice.

The service companies landed in Madras (region); while a large contingent from the UK (including Ryan) were sent first to Bombay (region). Before finally meeting up in Cannanore, Madras.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: rohanryan on Saturday 03 November 12 15:22 GMT (UK)
Ken,

Thank you so much for sharing!
This information has me confused. John Ryan's marriage to Ann O'Grady in 1853 shows him to be 19 years old.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGVT-NWP

He was probably born in 1833. If he transferred from the 56th Foot in 1842, he would have been 9 years old at that time??!! What was the minimum age to join a regiment?

Rohan
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Saturday 03 November 12 16:06 GMT (UK)
No he could not be a Private at that age. They had a rank of Boy and they were at least 14 in the 1840s. Most likely the transcription of the marriage is wrong.

Or your John wasn't 1712. Although there was only one John Ryan serving in the 25th at that time. Where did you get the number from?

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: rohanryan on Saturday 03 November 12 16:23 GMT (UK)
Ken,

The church marriage records shows he was in the 25th. In the 74th there were 2 John Ryan's. One was also in the Malabar Police and the birth record of my gt grandmother, Ann Jane Ryan (born 29 Nov 1856), shows her father John Ryan to be member of the 74th and Malabar Police so I am certain I have the right Regiment Number.

All the info matches. (Married while in 25th, transferred to 74th and working with Malabar Police.)

Some of his muster records say Kensington Plasterer.

Rohan
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: confused73 on Saturday 03 November 12 16:34 GMT (UK)
May I please join in this post. First I would like to say thank you for all the information that has already been posted.
I have a problem with a soldier of the 25 th.  A William Leadsdale, who seems to be a bit of a con man. There are very few records of Leadsdales , but we found two,  the first was a William from Yorkshire born1834, The second William from Durham born 1843 We eventually decided that they were the same person.

William from York.
Enlisted in 59th 16 July 1855
Absent.           8-14 Aug  1861
Private.  15 Aug-27 Sept1861
Absent.   28 Sept -4 Oct 1861
Private       5.Oct- 4 May 1865
Re-engaged5May-26Dec1865
Deserted.                 27 Dec1865
                                                                        William from Durham enlisted 25 Foot   12 Jan. 1866
                                                                         Deserted.                                                      15 May.1866
Rejoined                 11 June1866
Awaiting trial 12 June-17 1866
Prison.   18 June-12 Aug. 1866                  
Private    13 Aug- 4 Dec.   1866
Discharge.             8 Jan.   1867                    
                                                                          Rejoined.                                 24April        1867
                                                                           Awaiting trial            25 April.  5 May.      1867
                                                                          Prison.                        9 May- 31 July.       1867
                                                                           Private.                     1 Aug-1867-17June 1869
                                                                           Discharge                             17. June.        1869
We have very little firm evidence about him except for a marriage certificate and birth cert for two children. No proof of his birth or death.
Why did he enlist in two regiments and desert from both?  
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Saturday 03 November 12 17:19 GMT (UK)
Some of his muster records say Kensington Plasterer.

You get this (and usually written in red ink) when there are two men of the same name. It means his parish of birth was Kensington and his occupation when he enlisted was plasterer. Is this from the 74th Regiment musters?  They often call them (1) and (2) as well.

If so here, what does it say about the other John Ryan?

btw..the 25th Regiment had a 1078 Private Michael O'Grady

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: rohanryan on Sunday 04 November 12 04:55 GMT (UK)
Yes. That is from the 74th Regiment musters. As you mentioned, they are numbered (1) and (2) as well.

The other John Ryan in the 74th had the regimental number 2310 (74th) with the remark "Public Employ" and in faint writing "Tipperary Labourer" (This John Ryan has not transferred from the 25th)

Ann O'Grady is the daughter of Michael and Margaret O'Grady. Michael O'Grady was indeed employed by the 25th Regiment.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: confused73 on Sunday 04 November 12 11:41 GMT (UK)
Hi, I was wondering if any one had found any more information about Leadsdale and could offer a reason for his deserting one regiment and then joining another only to desert from that one. Then returning to the first.? Was he discovered or return of his own free will. ? Will I ever know?
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Sunday 04 November 12 12:37 GMT (UK)
William Leadsdale

This is a nice puzzle. I agree that the dates fit them being the same man. Also looking at the two service records the eyes/hair and complexion match. Also the 59th were in Glasgow when he deserted. And he enlisted in the 25th Foot in Edinburgh two weeks later. Against that is why he would use the same (uncommon) name? Details of his desertion would be published in the Police Gazette. He may have used an alias. This is not mentioned on the discharge record. I do not have a muster for the 25th for 1866 so cannot check if that mentions an alias.

Not being able to find them in the 1851 census does not help.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: confused73 on Sunday 04 November 12 14:31 GMT (UK)
Thank you for your reply Ken, This man or men do pose a puzzle, I can find no birth or baptism record for either,  and no mention in any census, in fact there are only two leadsdales in any census and can find no link.  I understand that william from Durham married in Glassgow while in tha 25th. ,  father Edwin was a shoe maker,  He marries my OH's gt. grand mother as a widow,  after leaving the 25th father is now Robert shoe maker. He then goes to sea and no further record of him. William of York apart from his army record,  I have nothing.
Regards the branding of the letter B this was mentioned on the discharge from the 25th and that was his last post in the army so could they not have done the branding then,  he had already left the 59th, and may be they did not brand him then, I had asumed he had got his tattoos when he joined the 25th.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Sunday 04 November 12 16:38 GMT (UK)
I have amended my last post. I had him not going back to the 25th. So he got the tattoos after 1867 and was marked with the D by the 25th. So apart from him using his real name they could be the same man.

A ship tattoo often means time at sea and I found the four sailings out of Chester. Have you found the re-marriage to Ellen Williams and at least one child born in Holyhead?

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: confused73 on Sunday 04 November 12 20:08 GMT (UK)
Hallo Ken,  We feel that he is the same man, but what his real name is who knows, and it did seem strange using the same name, If it is his real name where are all the other Leadsdales.? Yes I have a copy of his marriage to Ellen. William has a son also called William by his first wife,they too then disappear, as does his daughter born to Ellen and him, called Louisa. Then there is another child Rosie, my OH's grandmother, but only Ellen is on the certificate, no father. So he either died or did another runner.
I have two records of William going to sea, 1869 on the Sea Nymph and 1870 on the Admiral Moorsom both out of Chester.       Siwan.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BW252 on Thursday 13 December 12 11:06 GMT (UK)
Hello all

I too have a problem researching a soldier in the 25th.   His name was David Scobie and he is shown as the husband of Helen Turnbull who died in Edinburgh in May 1868.   Informant is her sister.    DC states "married to David Scobie Private 25th Regiment of Foot"   I cannot trace this man at all

 :'(
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: ev on Friday 14 December 12 15:54 GMT (UK)
Following on from a post on the Scotland board it would now seem that David Scobie is actually David
Alexander -

Quote
Hellen Turnbull married David Alexander 29/6/1863 Edinburgh - she is shown as aged 20, daughter of Robert Turnbull and Janet Aitken and he is shown as aged 22, Private 25th. Foot, address Edinburgh Castle, son of John Alexander, Gardener, and Susan (formerly Scott).

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,627463.10.html

ev
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BW252 on Friday 14 December 12 20:33 GMT (UK)
Ev

thanks for this - I am way behind you in correcting this post.   Many thanks

Harry
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BrassMusic on Friday 07 June 13 01:08 BST (UK)
I am trying to find out the birth date of John William Fenton who was in the 25th foot from 1842 to 1864. He was then transferred to 1/10th foot. The inscription on his grave says he was born in 12 March 1831. His pension record assumes that he was born in July 1828. But I found a GRO regimental birth record saying he was born in 12 March (same day as the grave) 1829. Although his father was a sergeant of 65th this record says it was produced in 25th foot depot in Kinsale. There is a name of adjutant S.Bristow, Lt. (According to Army List there was only Peter Henry Bristow in 1829 ) Clergyman was Mr.Thompson. I looked at WO12 at TNA but could not find depot of 25th stationed in Kinsale. The father's regiment was in Waterford in March 1829. But I could not find any record that the father was seconded to 25th during this period. The main unit of 25th was in the West Indies and the detachment was in Scotland. Can any one tell me where was depot of 25th in 1829?
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: Tyrannosaurus on Friday 07 June 13 11:47 BST (UK)
The dates for which I have a depot location for the 25th in that period are as follows.
September 1827 - Aberdeen
September 1828 – Aberdeen
July 1829 – Aberdeen
January 1830 – Edinburgh
January 1832 – Paisley

The Aberdeen depot is mentioned in the regimental history.
http://archive.org/stream/cihm_06993#page/n321/mode/2up

The 25th left for Barbadoes in December 1825. They appear to have been at Kinsale in November and December 1825. They had formed depot companies some months beforehand. From the newspapers the depot arrived at Isle of Wight in December 1825 and headed for Scotland, and it appears that they only spent part of their time there at Aberdeen. The detachment in Scotland would have been the depot.

London Gazette, 31 August, 1830, near bottom first column, there’s a Skeffington Bristow to be Ensign 25th Foot. http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/18722/pages/1857

Also in Army List 1831.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=JQAcAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA187

The 65th Regiment moved from Waterford to Fermoy about June 1829. In October the service companies moved to Cork to embark for Barbadeos. The 65th depot remained at Fermoy until November when they moved to Spike Island.

In January 1831 there’s a report of the 65th depot moving from Fermoy and Michelstown to Kinsale. They left Kinsale for Cork in November that year.

Rex
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: Tyrannosaurus on Friday 07 June 13 12:30 BST (UK)
Because of the high death rate of soldiers in the West Indies a recruiting party of the 25th Regimental depot from Scotland may have paid a visit to their colleagues in Ireland to try make up their numbers, and perhaps got stuck with some paperwork.

Are you sure the regimental birth record is 1829 and not 1831?

Rex
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Friday 07 June 13 16:14 BST (UK)
There is a very good chance that they were two different people. John Fenton of the 25th and 10th Foot has no middle initial in his army records (papers and musters). He enlisted aged 13 and 9 months, and the army at least believed he was born 12 July 1828.

He enlisted 11 days after a Private Frederick Fenton was transferred to the 25th from the 76th Foot. This may be worth investigating. Within weeks they had both sailed for the Cape (where they picked up the service companies) and then on to India, and the last I have on Frederick is that he was still with the 25th in Madras in Q3 1844. He does not appear to have received a pension.

Frederick was one of 383 men transferred to the 25th from other Regiments prior to sailing. Each man received a bounty of 30 shillings. The Depot was in Winchester and later moved to Chatham.

The record says that John's intended residence was Yedo, Japan. Are you descended from him or the 'other one'? The musters from late 1860s will give details of John's wife plus ages of any children if you need confirmation.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BrassMusic on Friday 07 June 13 22:30 BST (UK)
Thank you Rex and Ken !
     No, I am not a descendant but I am a Japanese doing a research about him. He was a bandmaster of 1/10th and taught the Japanese brass music in Japan. Ken, thank you for interesting suggestion. I will look for Frederick Fenton. How old was he when John Fenton joined the 25th ? Frederick might have been John Fenton's kin. Or, since John Fenton, the father died in the West Indies in 1833, the mother married to a man in the 25th. That might be Frederick. But I am pretty sure the bandmaster was John Fenton, who joined the 25th in 1842 when he was a boy.
     His birth is most confusing. Especially GRO record (next time i will send the attachment), which says he was born in 12 March 1829 and on the top of the certificate it says Depot 25th Regiment of Foot and under Place and Date of the Child's Baptism it says Kinsale 12 April 1829.
     Let me repeat my questions again. First question; was the Depot really in Kinsale ? Rex, thanks for the regimental history. As you  say according to WO12 depot of 25th was in Aberdeen not in Ireland. Even if the depot was in Kinsale why was it there? To recruit, maybe. But why not Aberdeen? If the depot was in Kinsale long enough to register a birth and baptism there should be a record in muster roll about being in Kinsale. It was not a day trip ! But I cannot find it, at least in WO12.
     Second question is why a birth of a child of 65th foot recorded in Depot 25th ? In the muster roll father seems to be always with the 65th, never was seconded to 25th. May be the mother had some connection with the 25th ? Her maiden name seems to be Towers. Judith Towers. May be a brother or father was in 25th in 1829?
     Third question. On the Fenton's grave stone in the US it says 12 March 1831. I forgot to tell you that I found original baptismal record of St Multose Church in Kinsale which says the baptism was in April 1831. So I started to think that  the first baby died. But I have not found any burial record. Also. it is higly unlikely that two John Fentons were born on the same 12 March. Or he was born in 1829 and he was baptized twice ?
     I also found in 1831 army list Skeffington Bristow. But it was Adjutant Lieutenant S Bristow who signed the GRO regimental birth register of 1829. There was Lt. Peter Henry Bristow in the 25th in 1829. So was S had to be P or can ensign Skeffington Bristow be a adjutant ?
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Wednesday 12 June 13 09:26 BST (UK)
Bandmaster John Fenton did enlist in the 25th Foot when he was 13 years and 9 months. We know this from his record on Findmypast. The record also gives the date he turned 18 so the army believed 'Bandmaster' John was born 12 July 1828.

Further research is needed to find Frederick’s age.

Regarding the Kinsale birth, as Rex says the 25th’s Depot was in Scotland, but there could have been a detachment of men from the 25th on the 65th ‘s muster in Kinsale. It is not unknown for a regiment to have men from other regiments on their pay/ muster book. What is unusual is having an Adjutant with such a detachment. It would help if you could post a copy of the document giving the officer’s name.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BrassMusic on Wednesday 12 June 13 22:16 BST (UK)
Here is the GRO record. The adjutant's name is S Bristow. His rank is lieutenant. If this is Skeffington Bristow he was not enlisted in 1829. He joined the 25th in 1830. He was still an ensign even in 1831. Peter Henry Bristow was with the 25th in 1829 as lieutenant.

MOD COMMENT: Image removed as per Rootschat copyright policy
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: garthj on Tuesday 14 June 16 08:24 BST (UK)
I am new to this discussion but would greatly appreciate finding more information about a supposed ancestor from Augher in County Tyrone, in particular the circumstances of his recruitment and the names of his parents. John Turbitt was discharged a private from the 2nd Battalion, 25th Regiment of Foot 19/12/1861 aged 30yrs 8 months. He was entitled to 16yrs 119 days pension after service which included 7yrs 247 days abroad in the Mediterranean, Crimea and the East Indies. After discharge he lived in Augher and was married with children - I am not sure if he married while in the army or what his Augher wife Mary's maiden name was.
I believe he may have been a brother of my great grandfather James Turbitt who emigrated to New Zealand in 1864 but cannot clearly establish the connection. If his army records could throw any light it would be immensely helpful.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: BonnieDownUnder on Tuesday 14 June 16 09:42 BST (UK)
Hi garthj,
I see from John Turbitt's war record it is very precise, right down to being able to envisage what he would have looked like, from his personal description. But alas, tantalising short on who was his next-of-kin, which is what you want to know.

However, "km1971" who came on to this thread, is a wiz on military matters. He has given me tremendous assistance so hope that he spots your request and can be of help.
Good luck, Bonnie
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: garthj on Tuesday 14 June 16 21:32 BST (UK)
Thanks for the encouragement Bonnie - any help will be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Wednesday 15 June 16 02:56 BST (UK)
The discharge papers are all that survives of his record. They did not record next of kin until about 20 years later. Also, they did not record the married establishment until the late 1860s. There is a very remote chance that he sent money home, and this will be recorded in the musters.

You could try the regimental BMDs on sites such as FIndmypast. But they are not complete. I see he got a pension from the age of 50.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: garthj on Wednesday 15 June 16 05:45 BST (UK)
Thanks a lot Ken - I will follow those leads.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Saturday 18 June 16 08:50 BST (UK)
Hi Garth

Clogher can not be a big place so it would be wise to ask on the Tyrone board if any one has access to their church records or the name of a local researcher. Hopeful the Turbitt's stayed there long enough to leave a mark and you will find relatives.

I see from the 1901 census the Turbitts in Augher were Church of Ireland. There are C of I records from before the introduction of civil registration in 1864

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: garthj on Sunday 19 June 16 02:06 BST (UK)
Thanks Ken.
I have quite a lot of information about individual Turbitts (various spellings) in both the Clogher and Errigal Keerogue parishs of Couty Tyrone, and of course about the descendants of my great-grandparents since 1864. The problem has been to connect individuals named in the Griffith's valuations with their families prior to the 1901 census and existing BDM records, wills etc. are only partially informative, hence, I was hoping that military records might fill in the gaps with information about next of kin.
I will keep trying!
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: Caseygee on Monday 07 November 16 08:54 GMT (UK)
I have tumbled across this website and forum and have found it fascinating to read through  the pages relating to my GGF's 25th Regiment of Foot. And particularly with the knowledge shared by Ken and other knowledgeable users of this forum.

I have been trying for many years to obtain information relating to my GGF John Guinan who I know to have enlisted in the 16th Regiment in 1855, but who then by 1859, had worked his way up through the ranks to become a Colour Sergeant before transferring to the 2/25th Regiment stationed at Preston in December of that same year. June 1860 saw him being stationed at Aldershot. I have a copy of his marriage certificate from when he married my GGM nearby there later that year and also Census information for him and his wife (for the entire Regiment actually) while at Farnham during 1861. Later that year he was stationed with the Regiment at Shorncliffe and by late 1862 he was stationed at Edinburgh Castle. Then during July 1863 he and my GGM embarked with the Regiment to Ceylon, where in late 1866 he took his discharge. He then owned or managed 2 Hotels there while having 3 children (including my GF) before passing away only 5 years later in 1871.

I have a copy of a letter that my Father received from the Public Records Office during the 1950s in which Sgt John's Service Number was quoted as being: 4066 Sergeant John Guinan with WO 12/3363-8, 4233-9 Regimental Musters and Paylists, Army lists also being quoted.

I would be most appreciative if Ken or anyone can provide me with any information related to him or anything relative to his time while in military service. Or for that matter provide me with guidance as to how I might be able to obtain as much detail as possible from his military records. I have researched Findmypast and aside from the Marriage and Census Records mentioned above I have not been able to find anything else from there and as I am not resident in the UK I am unable to attend for any personal research there.
 
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Monday 07 November 16 09:41 GMT (UK)
Hi CaseyGee and welcome to Rootschat

Firstly you need to get to three posts and then you can send and receive personal messages (including email addresses).

My GGF served in the 25th, so I have some information I can share. I am away from my main sources, so it may not be until the weekend. But I will see what I have with me.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: Caseygee on Monday 07 November 16 10:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Ken

I am delighted you have picked up on my post and look forward to anything that you are able to share. I have been working on this and my broader family tree for many many years so I am sure I can wait till the weekend for anything that you may be able to find.

Caseygee
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: Mofamily on Tuesday 08 November 16 19:24 GMT (UK)
Hi Ken

Sorry to butt in, but you do seem to know a great deal about the 25th Regiment of foot.

My ancestor was William Nicholson and he was born in the regiment in Jersey in 1798/99.  I do have his attestation papers from FindMyPast  from 1811 in St Kitts and I know that he ended up in Edinburgh with his family in a very run down area.

However, I would love to know the history of how his mother and father ended up in Jersey within the regiment, when they would have left and how, and why they were in St Kitts.  Would he have been there all the time until his discharge in Chatham Kent on 30.6.1841 or would he have been sent elsewhere?

I would love to have a story to go with the man so I could imagine how things would have been for him. 

Thanks
Mo
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: *Sandra* on Sunday 13 November 16 17:16 GMT (UK)


Firstly you need to get to three posts and then you can send and receive personal messages (including email addresses).

Ken

Welcome to RootsChat Casey Gee.

2 posts is all it takes - so you should be up and running now.

Sandra
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Wednesday 16 November 16 10:49 GMT (UK)

I have been trying for many years to obtain information relating to my GGF John Guinan

All I have managed to find is a copy of the Qtr 1 1860 muster for the 2nd Battalion in Preston. It is a poor image but it suggests he transferred from the 16th as a Sergeant and was promoted Colour Sergeant from March 1st. Pay for that quarter was two shillings for 60 days as a Sgt and 31 days at 2s 6d as a Colour Sgt. He also received 10 pence for a hot meal on a march. It was persumeably when he transferred to the 25th.

For the rest of the year all I have are details of recruits. This is the time that the 2nd Bn reformed (since disbanding in 1816). Which is why there were vacancies for Sergeants to be promoted to Colour.

Ken

Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Wednesday 16 November 16 11:27 GMT (UK)
Hi Mo

Private William Nicholson was given the regimental number 32, when numbers were introduced in the late 1820s. The longest serving men got the lowest numbers. So #32 suggests an early recruit. In the same muster (Qtr 2 1837) when stationed at Templemore and Limerick.

There is a Drummer Francis Nicholson #82. Could he be a younger brother? Or maybe not - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8736162

The 1st Battalion 25th Foot fought the French in the West Indies during the Peninsular War. Any man alive in 1847 could claim a Military General Service Medal with clasps for Martinque and Guadalope. You should google both.

I do not have details of the 25th being in Jersey in the late 1790s. But his father may have served there with another regiment. His family could be with him in the West Indies when William became 13 years old, and he was enlisted as a Boy. You will need to look up the 1811 muster for the 25th and see if an older Nicholson is present. Then follow his service back to the late 1790s.

The 25th, like all regiments, moved about a lot. List of stations:

= 1808 to 1817 - West Indies
= to 1827 - Ireland
= to 1834 - West Indies and Guyana
= to 1835 - UK
= to 1837 - Canada
= to 1839 - Ireland
= 1840 - in the Cape

Ken



Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: Skoosh on Wednesday 16 November 16 13:24 GMT (UK)
Mo, Nicholson's a Skye name, Nicolson a Shetland name!

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: Mofamily on Thursday 17 November 16 14:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Ken and Skoosh

Thank you for your replies.  They are greatly appreciated.

I thought the 25th Regiment of Foot were in Jersey because his Attestation Papers for the 25th Regiment of Foot say "born within the Regiment" in Jersey, so I thought it had to be that Regiment.

The birth of one of his sons in Ireland in 1839 now makes sense  ;) The rest of his children were born in Edinburgh.

Thanks again for your valuable information.

Mo
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: Skoosh on Thursday 17 November 16 15:59 GMT (UK)
Mo,  Jersey was heavily garrisoned during the Napoleonic Wars, the French landed & there was a battle in the Royal Square, St Helier. The hero was a guy named Peirson/Pearson if I remember aright.

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: Caseygee on Thursday 17 November 16 23:53 GMT (UK)

I have been trying for many years to obtain information relating to my GGF John Guinan

All I have managed to find is a copy of the Qtr 1 1860 muster for the 2nd Battalion in Preston. It is a poor image but it suggests he transferred from the 16th as a Sergeant and was promoted Colour Sergeant from March 1st. Pay for that quarter was two shillings for 60 days as a Sgt and 31 days at 2s 6d as a Colour Sgt. He also received 10 pence for a hot meal on a march. It was persumeably when he transferred to the 25th.

For the rest of the year all I have are details of recruits. This is the time that the 2nd Bn reformed (since disbanding in 1816). Which is why there were vacancies for Sergeants to be promoted to Colour.

Ken

Thank you Ken for your efforts.

I am pleased that you were able to find something from your records but must admit I had built my hopes up that there would be much more to find.  Does this mean that there are no other records available regarding my GGF's records for the time period involved? Or is it just that you yourself do not have the necessary records for his time in service? I was hoping that the Pay & Muster Records would reveal more than I already have and/or that they might lead me to his original attestation and/or particularly his discharge documents. Are you able to say if any of these records are in any way worth chasing for or would I just be wasting my time and hope?  If they are likely to be available, where would I go to obtain them?

Casey
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Friday 18 November 16 00:06 GMT (UK)
Hi Mo

You will need to look up the muster book for the 25th for the time of his birth. Records that say where a particular regiment was usually refers to the headquarters, ie the commanding officer. I cannot find a reference to the HQ being in Jersey in that period.

The musters should tell you if a man was on detachment to a different location.

Ken

Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Friday 18 November 16 00:15 GMT (UK)
I do not have a copy of the information you need. If you really wish to know where a soldier was month by month you have to look up the muster books covering his full service. As I said in my last post to Mo, the published 'locations of station' of regiments are for the CO. If you are looking for an individual you need to look up each muster in case the man was on detachment. You will then. for example, know which church records to research; if it is family BMD information you are after.

The musters were created by the Paymaster, so they also contain details of a man's promotions/demotions, award of good conduct pay, punishment, if in hospital. on board ship , on furlo, awol, in prison awaiting trail etc. Indeed anything affecting his pay and pensions etc, while he was the responsibility of a particular Paymaster.

In your case you can also look at the musters for the 16th Foot, starting with the one for 1859/60 and working backwards.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: Mofamily on Friday 18 November 16 10:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Mo

You will need to look up the muster book for the 25th for the time of his birth. Records that say where a particular regiment was usually refers to the headquarters, ie the commanding officer. I cannot find a reference to the HQ being in Jersey in that period.

The musters should tell you if a man was on detachment to a different location.

Ken

I have now found a reference to the Regiment being in Jersey at the exact date of William's birth.

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Britain/Infantry/Regiments/c_25thFoot.html

Thanks Ken and Skoosh.

Mo
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: trikidiki on Sunday 25 December 16 00:07 GMT (UK)
Good Evening/Morning,

I'm hoping to find any information available about my gt grandfather who served in the 25th foot.

He was born in Beaford, Devon in Jan 1858.
Served a five year apprenticeship as a shoemaker. Then joined the 25th foot, so would assume he was about 18 making it approximately 1876. His service no. was 2815
On 28 July 1880 he deserted the regiment in Devonport. Listed in the Police Gazette.

He laid low for nearly year (though there is a tangible record in the 1881 census). He then joined the newly amalgamated Devonshire Regiment on 13 July 1881 under an assumed name of Francis  (Frank) Dawson. I have his service record in the Devonshires in which he claimed he had previously served in the militia. In 1888 while serving in India he revealed his true identity and signed an affidavit confirming it. He went on to serve for nearly 30 years in the Devonshires, finally discharged in 1910. My grandfather recollected in his writings, as a child he would sleep in the rolled hides in his workshop, so it seems he continued his trade within the regiment. In "A REGIMENTAL HISTORY OF THE 1ST BATTALION DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT DURING THE BOER WAR 1899-1902 BY COLONEL M. JACSON"

"We have all read realistic descriptions of troops on the march in South Africa, the writer using all his cunning to depict the war-worn dirty condition of his heroes, seeming to glean satisfaction from their grease-stained khaki. It must be admitted that the South African War is responsible for a somewhat changed condition of thought as regards cleanliness and its relation to smartness. No such abstraction disturbed the Devons; a Devon man was always clean. Individuals of some corps could be readily identified by their battered helmets or split boots; not so the Devons."

I like to think of that as a personal tribute to him.

Any information that anyone has from the 25th foot's  musters would be very welcome.

Any ideas why the 25th foot was in Devonport and where he was likely to have served in the preceding years, I am still reading around the subject but believe the 25th were part of the Peshwar Valley Field Force around the time he would have been serving. Any pointers to texts to read would be great too.

Most of this information was gleaned by my uncle, his grandson and namesake, John Bennett who is a contributor on these boards.

Merry Christmas.

trikidiki


P.S. My uncle has previously made a request on this forum:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=299177.0

This was before he found the details of the desertion and hence the correct regiment, so I feel it is more at home being asked in this topic.





Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Monday 26 December 16 07:54 GMT (UK)
Served a five year apprenticeship as a shoemaker. Then joined the 25th foot, so would assume he was about 18 making it approximately 1876. His service no. was 2815

Was he called John Bennett in the 25th?

Regimental number 2566 enlisted 27th March 1880. So #2815 would be later than that. They were still in Devonport. That might be a better fit for when he finished his apprenticeship as that usually happened at 21.

The mergers of 1881 introduced permanent depots. Almost all infantry regiments had two battalions. Ideally one served overseas and one served at home. The home battalions moved around the UK as they had before the merger. So being in Devonport was no surprise. The regiment was the Kings Own Borderers in his day.

Surprised a time-served shoemaker joined the army, as he would have been paid a lot less. The 1st Bn were in India from 1877. The 2nd Bn were with the Depot in Devonport.

#2517 Benjamin Bennett joined at Taunton on 12 Feb 1880, aged 19 years 11 months. He reached the Depot on the 17th of February. There were recruiting parties as far away as London, Liverpool, York etc.

There was also #1883 John Barrett already serving Qtr 2 1879. I cannot find a John Bennett, and as I said #2815 had not been issued.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: trikidiki on Monday 26 December 16 11:36 GMT (UK)
Hi

Many thanks for the fast response, Hope you had a good Christmas.

I am assuming he enlisted under the name of John Bennett. The information I have for him before that  does not suggest otherwise. He is also listed as a deserter in the Police Gazette on four occasions as John Bennett in August 1880, it references his regimental number as 2815.

Quote
Surprised a time-served shoemaker joined the army, as he would have been paid a lot less.
My Aunt is of the opinion he was running away from an irate grandfather to be in Beaford.

The missing regimental number is a mystery. I assume there is a whole block missing?

Thanks

trikidiki


As an aside. I have a similar situation in my wife's family. He is listed as 'absent' on his record in 1913 and I cannot find any reference to him as a deserter. Would he be AWOL in peacetime and a deserter had it been in wartime?

Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: km1971 on Tuesday 27 December 16 09:59 GMT (UK)
Leave in Absent Without Leave means 'permission', so covers being late from a furlough or weekend pass etc. Or nipping home to see the family. Desertion is the intention not to return. Selling his equipment would signal he was deserting.

The modern term 'leave' (as in holiday from work) comes from Absent With Leave.

Ken
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: DarrenM on Tuesday 21 February 17 13:50 GMT (UK)
Good Morning,

Writing to you from Canada. I see there is great interest and strong family connections to the 25th ROF. It so happens that while out metal detecting about 2 years ago in New Brunswick, I dug up a very, very old brass tunic button, which had a large 25 with a crown, across the top was written "Kings Own Borderers". I am aware that the 25th was in Canada during the Fenian Crisis of 1866, but still not sure why this would have been found in New Brunswick. It was a very historic curiosity, of which I inquired with experts of British military units in Canada during the 18th & 19th century. It remains a mystery. Just thought I would share that with you. Cheers.
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: Scudwilson82 on Friday 15 March 19 01:31 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I'm researching my family tree and have found that my Great Great Grandfather Allan Stewart was a Sergeant in the 25th Regiment of foot.
I have found his service record in Fold3.
He was born in Paisley in 1821 and served 1838-1859. 17 years and 4 months of that abroad.
His service number was 1206.
If anyone can fill me in on any information they might be able to find I would be eternally grateful.
Many thanks

Rob
Title: Re: Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot
Post by: alasdair_13 on Friday 04 September 20 15:53 BST (UK)
Further updates. I'ms still not really any wiser about John Connor's history befrore he married Marion Darrach. I do know now that he died of TB, not cholera, though. So if anyone can help identify his backstory I'd be grateful.

I have since discovered though, that two of his sons subsequently joined the army - the same regiment though it was the KOSB by then. William and Thomas both signed up and spent time in India.

William joined 1893 and spent time in India and Burma before being discharged in 1905. His medal can be seen here: https://www.mortonandeden.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/83.pdf

Thomas signed up in 1891 but was invalided out towards the end of the 1890s with TB. I cannot find any trace of either of them once they've been discharged sadly.


I've been away from this here a while but recently had time to do a little more digging and have uncovered some more facts and dates.

Marion Darroch did indeed marry John Connor, a private in the 25th foot in Glasgow in 1868. From various sources I've pieced together their movements. Seems they went to possibly Aldershot where they had a son, John, in 1869 then went to India. Soon after, my ancestor, Mary was born in 1871, followed by Thomas (1873 in Naini Tal) and William (1877 in Fyzabad).

John Connor dies 3 September 1877 in Fyzebad - possibly as a result of a cholera epidemic that was sweeping the area then.

Marion clearly stays in Indoa and takes up with Thomas Septimus Woodman, also  private in 25th foot, and she marries him 11/10/1878 in Fyzebad. They are in the 1881 census at the military barracks in York (with her children by John Connor, all called Woodman).

They later appear on the Scottish census of 1891 in Kinning Park, Glasgow where Thomas has clearly retired from the army and they have other children.

Still not sure of there is anything more on John Connor's life or history to be gleaned or iof that is about the limits of possible knowledge.





Hi Alasdair

It was the 1st Battalion that was in Glasgow in 1868, having returned from Canada the previous year. They moved around the British Isles until Oct 1875 when they moved to India. The 2nd Battalion were in Ceylon/India from 1863 to 1876, so it looks as if he was transferred to the 2nd Bn in time for his daughter’s birth

If he died in service they would have routinely destroyed his record after 20 years. But the best next step would be to see if his service record survives in Kew. If you cannot visit and do not wish to pay a researcher, you will have to wait to see if Findmypast put it online (due ‘by 2011’). How it is filed will depend upon when he was discharged – http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm

Most men were discharged 12 years after enlistment, so were aged between the ages of 30 and 35 depending upon when they enlisted.  Service before the age of 18 did not count. His service record will give you an outline of him and his service, but it probably will not give details of his wife and children.

If his record does not survive you can follow his service using the Muster Books (WO12) in Kew, starting with the one for the 1st Bn in 1868 and working backwards until he enlisted; and then working forwards from the 2nd Bn muster for 1870-71 until he dies or is discharged. You may be lucky as they started to include details of the marriage roll – wife’s forename and ages of any children – in the musters from around this period. His first entry may give his parish of birth, and/or where he enlisted and maybe his age.

Ken