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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: queenswood 1 on Monday 21 April 08 16:25 BST (UK)

Title: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: queenswood 1 on Monday 21 April 08 16:25 BST (UK)

I am trying to research the history behind a Sachnovsky family in the Elham & Canterbury areas early 1900s including an Andrew SACHNOVSKY born in Canterbury June 1921 (died 2001) with mother's maiden name of TCHITCHERINE or any info on the Sachnovsky name in Kent at the turn of the century.

Also looking into a Baranorsky/Tchitcherine connection in the Canterbury area.

Does anyone know of these two families? Were they involved in the performimg arts/theatre at all?

Any information, however small, would be really appreciated.

Caroline

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: Caminol on Monday 13 June 11 21:12 BST (UK)

Did you ever receive any replies to this post.   I know that it was a long time ago, but I would be very interested to know.

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: queenswood 1 on Tuesday 14 June 11 21:32 BST (UK)

Sadly no. My interest is in the surname Tchitcherine- and possibly identifying a british link. It was a bit of a long shot- but no responses as yet.
Caroline

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: casalguidi on Tuesday 14 June 11 22:12 BST (UK)

I'm not sure quite how far you've got Caroline or what you are trying to establish but there are a few refs. to TCHITCHERINE in the Canterbury area ie. Alexandra of independant means from Russia of  21 Ethelbert Road, Canterbury granted British nationality 6 Aug 1929 (born c1891 d1961?).

Helen of "Wilstead", Ethelbert Rd, Canterbury (born c1858) died 26 Jan 1931.  Probate granted to Boris TCHITCHERINE esq. and John Steggall SAWYER chartered accountant £8283.  Funeral notice in "The Times" notes widow of Andrew and sister of the late John HOWARD - funeral to take place at Lyminge.

Casalguidi :)

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: Caminol on Tuesday 14 June 11 22:20 BST (UK)

Caroline. I am not sure what info you are looking for but I may able to help. This is my family  tell me what you need and the purpose for your enquiry.

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: queenswood 1 on Wednesday 15 June 11 20:54 BST (UK)

Thank you for getting in contact- I was doing this research 3 years ago- and I think possibly I was shooting off at a tangent- but you never know!

I have been researching the life of Princess Clementine Eristvi Tchitcherine (1888-1973)- and I was clearly digging around for links with Tchitcherine in the UK - In a nutshell, Clementine was born in Brussels to Englis parents and married Prince Eristavi tchitcherine ( A Russian/Geogian Prince) after WW1. Clementine had a son Frank- who took the surname of  Tchitcherine- his stepfather. Frank Tchitcherine was born 1907 in Paris but attended Brighton College before dtudying at Cambridge from 1927-1929. he was a great athlete at both Brighton college and cambridge.

I think I was just trying to see if there was any link with the Tchitcherine family in the UK - increulousy, my grandmother who lived all her life in London and died in 1976, was in corresdpondence with Clementine -Franks mother, from after WW2 until the early 1960s- and Clementine lived in the south of France.
It is a very curious connection as my grandmother was just an ordinary lady- yet she was corresponding with a French/Rusian Princess.
So the crux of this particular line of enquiry is to investigate any Tchitcherine families in the UK from the turn of the century to date.
If any of this makes any sense to you I would welcome just the smallest facts because sooner or later a small piece will be the missing piece of a very complex jigsaw!
Caroline
 

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: gortonboy on Wednesday 15 June 11 21:04 BST (UK)

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Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: Caminol on Wednesday 15 June 11 21:09 BST (UK)

I can tell you that Andrew Sachnovsky (Howard) was born in Canterbury and his mother was a Tchitcherine.  She is buried in St Margaret's Church, Canterbury, as Andrew is.  He married my father's sister and they lived in London and Canterbury for as long as I can remember.  I don't know much about the Tchitcherine family to be honest, however there are several surviving members of the family scattered around the world and a few around the Kent area, including Andrew's son.

So you have your link between the Sachnovsky's and the Tchitcherine's.....it was more Chartham than Elham.  If you think that this info is relevant to you then maybe I could put you in touch with a member of the Tchitcherine famly

Title: Tchitcherine - UK connection
Post by: abthc on Sunday 18 December 11 20:37 GMT (UK)

I realize that this discussion is a little "stale" now, but I might be able to shed some light on the Tchitcherines, particularly Frank.

My mother (1917 - 2007) grew up in Wimbledon, and one of her childhood friends from there, Sheila (née Galligal) was widowed during World War 2. Sheila soon married Frank Tchitcherine and they moved to Connecticut, where I visited them often until I left the area in 1970. Frank died of throat cancer in (around) 1984 and Sheila died in (around 2001).

They didn't have any children. As far as I know, Frank never had a job and was supported by his mother, who lived in Paris (as has already been noted).

So there was a UK-connection........

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: queenswood 1 on Monday 19 December 11 19:40 GMT (UK)

Thank you- I have done considerable research into Frank Tchitcherine and his marriage to Sheila- I still cannot quite understand if this is how my grandmother came to know Frank's mother. My grandmother was corresponding with Frank's mother from 1949 to 1964 but had no reference to Frank in her address book. I do know my grandmother was trying to establish what had happened to her RAF son who was killed in 1944- with the rest of the crew of his Lancaster plane- during a bombing mission from England over the Begian/german border.
Does any of this ring any bells?
Caroline

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: abthc on Sunday 01 January 12 23:17 GMT (UK)

Caroline: That your grandmother was trying to find out about the fate of her "RAF son" who was shot down in 1944 rings bells with me because that is when and how Sheila Tchitcherine's first husband died. However, it is odd - inconceivable almost - that your grandmother would be in correspondence with Sheila's second mother-in-law about this!

I can say that the "princess" was actually a kind of vaudeville artist who specialized in magic acts and was quite a colorful character. See http://magicpostergallery.com/Ionia_2.html. When she married the prince, she gave up her act and clung fiercely to the title of "princess".

Good luck with your search. If my mother were still alive, I am sure that she would have all the clues.

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: queenswood 1 on Monday 02 January 12 15:37 GMT (UK)

Thank you for that- I must admit I have started to look into Sheila Ballingel's first husband as I though that could be a logical link- I will re-open my file and have another look. I have done extensive research on Princess Clementine - and her extensive family- but nothing obvious there yet! My grandmother's first contact with Clementine was in 1949 through to 1964. Please let me know if you can find anything that may link in- my late uncle was a Flight Sergent with the RAF as a navigator- his Lancaster was shot down in July 1944 during a night bombing raid over Scholven - all crew reported as missing presumed dead- but sadly my grandmother never accepted that fact and searched relentlessly for him for many years afterwards.
Thank you for keeping in touch!
Caroline

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: GARDINER 1 on Tuesday 17 April 12 23:19 BST (UK)

TO abthc:

Frank TCHITCHERINE was absolutely not supported by his mother but he was supported by his elderly aunt all his life long       ( and his mother too)

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: queenswood 1 on Wednesday 18 April 12 08:09 BST (UK)

I am extremly interested by your reply re Frank Tchitcherine- can we share some information please

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: queenswood 1 on Wednesday 18 April 12 20:27 BST (UK)

Excuse me for asking but is the fact that your RootsChat name is Gardiner- that is a significant surname in Clementine's father's family- and therefore that of her siblings and consequently that of Frank's uncles and aunts.- is that relevant or just a coincidence!

This ahs been a brick wall for a long time- I have sent you a personal mesage off the main site but ned you to respons so we can share the research.

Caroline

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: casalguidi on Wednesday 18 April 12 21:17 BST (UK)

GARDINER 1 will need to post three times on the main boards here on Rootschat before their personal message system is automatically activated.

Casalguidi :)

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: sailorgirl529 on Sunday 20 May 12 17:26 BST (UK)

Dear Queenswood1,
I have been following your posts for some time. I have actually joined this forum for the sake of communicating with you. I was so happy to see you are still active on the list.

I see that your search for the meaning of your Grandmother's correspondence with Clementine De Vere has taken you far and wide. My interest in the subject was brought on when my husband bought an item on Ebay that ended up having belonged to Frank. Because I have a young child I have only been able to devote minimum time to this matter, but it is positively magnetic.

I will wait till I hear from you here, but I look forward to hopefully shining a spotlight on how Clementine [because of Frank] might have given hope to your Grandmother about procuring news about the fate of your dear Uncle.

Sincerely,
Veronica

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: queenswood 1 on Sunday 20 May 12 18:08 BST (UK)

Hi Veronica- I am seriously excited by your post! I think you have to post on this forum at least 3 times before we can send personal messages to each other out of the public view.

Please respond to this message on the Wall and we will keep going till you get the ok to send me a personal message- I will tell you how!

My search has been going for so long , I am hopeful you may be able to help me resolve this!

It is certainly an unbelievable story!!!!!!
Caroline :)

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: sailorgirl529 on Sunday 20 May 12 18:29 BST (UK)

Dear Caroline,

Wow, so happy to hear from you at last. I have been reading your posts for about 4 years now. I know you had some correspondence with a friend of the Tchitcherines from Connecticut here in the US. I have some conjecture about Sheila Tchitcherine that I would also like to run by you.

My information is about Frank's military service and his

occupation after the War.
I'm wondering if you've ever contacted Corpus, Cambridge about his studies there. I would love to know what the topic was but they have never responded.

If it's okay, I'd love for us to continue along in this way--perhaps I won't have to write everything I know here in the public light since I am working on an article about all of this :) I will be glad to share it with you in some sort of sideroom. It certainly is not definitive proof, but I think it will provide a window for you that will certainly bear light.

With the highest regard,
Veronica

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: seamike on Monday 21 May 12 15:05 BST (UK)

Hi Veronica,
 I am also in this quest, so by posting your 3rd message on the rootschat you can proceed to PM and we will open Pandora box :)

Cheers
Mike

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: sailorgirl529 on Monday 21 May 12 15:13 BST (UK)

Thank you Mike! You'll need to initiate the PM as I am a novice and just rolling along here!
Veronica

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: queenswood 1 on Monday 21 May 12 19:24 BST (UK)

Will let you know all that is revealed- and trust that you will share with me too!
C

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: axcik on Tuesday 29 May 12 20:34 BST (UK)

To Gardiner 1

Elise supported both of them, for sure, but who supported them after her death?  ;)



<Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
<« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 17 April 12 23:19 BST (UK) »    Reply with quote
<TO abthc:

<Frank TCHITCHERINE was absolutely not supported by his mother but he was supported by his elderly aunt all his <life long  ( and his mother too)

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: queenswood 1 on Tuesday 29 May 12 21:35 BST (UK)

Thi is all becoming tantalisingly close- but still not giving me the link between my Grandmother and Frank's mother. Is it significant that Gardiner is interested in this story- bearing in mind that Clementine's father's middle name was Gardiner ( a maternal surname passed down)?

Any information to resolve this very long and tangled puzzle would really help!

Many thanks

Caroline

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: queenswood 1 on Wednesday 02 January 19 11:22 GMT (UK)

I have had reason to re-open my files in this respect and would like to try and pick up on the thread of this conversation in my attempt to get a bit closer in finding out the reason behind my grandmother- who lived in Walthamstow all her life till she died in 1976, was corresponding with Princess Clementine Eristavi Tchitcherine- Frank's mother- from after WW2 until the early 1960s- both in Paris and then later in Cap Ferrat.
Could it have been  through Sheila Ballingel who Frank married after the War?
Was it in connection with Frank's involvement with aeronautics after the War?
I would love to know the connection with the RootsChat member Gardiner- as this was a family surname in respect of Clementine's father Herbert aka Charles De Vere.
Any help in pursuing this long standing research to a conclusion would be so wonderful.
Any help at all really would be appreciated as I am so near and yet so far- almost within touching distance now surely!
Caroline

Title: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: Tchitcherine family on Monday 30 May 22 22:15 BST (UK)

Did you ever get anywhere with this enquiry?

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 31 May 22 08:36 BST (UK)

I had a reason for reading this thread when I saw the name Tchitcherine and am wondering if the correspondence between Frank's mother Clementine and your grandmother could be through Frank. According to this Frank attended Brighton College then Cambridge. Could he have been a schoolfriend of your grandmother's son?
https://gravitys-rainbow.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:MobileDiff/3559

https://m.facebook.com/people/Frank-W-Tchitcherine/100029274906421/

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: queenswood 1 on Tuesday 31 May 22 08:59 BST (UK)

Thank you for making contact- and for the link to Facebook of which I was unaware. It would be unlikely- but a good thought! - that my grandmother knew Clementine through a friendship between their sons. Her eldest son Leslie was born in 1921 and attended the George Monoux Grammar school in Walthamstow before starting work in the City with the Ministry of air Production- before becoming a Volunteer reserve to join the RAF in 1940. So the age difference and social background makes that theory quite unlikely- byt my grandmother left no stone unturned in her quest to ascertain what happened to her son Leslie when his Lancaster was hit during a night time bombing mission over Germany - plane hit the ground, exploded, and all crew lost- but she would always hold on to the hope that he had survived but badly burnt. It is possible that she may have come across Frank's work in investigating explosions linked to combustible gases- but that is just another very thin theory. My grandparents were very intellectual and inquisitive folks but it is hard to find a solid link as yet. Thank you for your interest.

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: dshevchenko on Thursday 04 August 22 23:32 BST (UK)

Quote from: Caminol on Wednesday 15 June 11 21:09 BST (UK)

I can tell you that Andrew Sachnovsky (Howard) was born in Canterbury and his mother was a Tchitcherine.  She is buried in St Margaret's Church, Canterbury, as Andrew is.  He married my father's sister and they lived in London and Canterbury for as long as I can remember.  I don't know much about the Tchitcherine family to be honest, however there are several surviving members of the family scattered around the world and a few around the Kent area, including Andrew's son.

So you have your link between the Sachnovsky's and the Tchitcherine's.....it was more Chartham than Elham.  If you think that this info is relevant to you then maybe I could put you in touch with a member of the Tchitcherine famly

Greetings from Russia
I am interested in the history of the Sakhnovsky->Chicherin->Howard family.
I know a lot about the life of Mr. William Howard, the owner of paper mill's in Kondrovo and Troitzky Russia, and later in Chartham Kent. William Howard was the father of Elena Tchicherina and Mr. John Howard of Sibton Park. Elena Tchicherina also had a brother, William, who died during the First World War in 1915. I want to know where the direct descendants of William Howard live? In our town of Kondrovo, history of proprietor paper mill William Howard is valued and respected.

Regards from Russia
Dmitry

Title: Re: Sachnovsky and Baranorsky- born 1919/1922
Post by: Charles le vert on Thursday 08 December 22 23:10 GMT (UK)

Greetings from Washington, DC.  I've information on Clementine de Vere (Ionia - Princess Clementine Eristavi Tchitcherine), Elise de Vere, Frank Tchitcherine, and Vladimir Eristavi Tchitcherine.  I'm interested in sharing this information of their time in Russia, France, and the US..  However, as there are so many details and threads, specific questions are best.  Thanks in advance.