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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Cas (stallc) on Wednesday 23 April 08 00:56 BST (UK)

Title: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Wednesday 23 April 08 00:56 BST (UK)
Hi All...am well lucky with this man, and chuffed to bits again, wanted to share as well  ;D

Have recently been contacted by a cousin with news of a baton that belonged to my (our) x3 Grandfather.  Full story for those that are interested here.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,168790.0.html

The baton is appox 29 inches brass or tarnished silver? at the head and point/ tip  - old leather over the shaft of the wood stick itself. (have 3 pics)

The engravings read...
 
R GIBBONS  HM 29 REG  engraved in a circle on the head around a flower design
ENGAGED AT FEROZESHAH 21 & 22 DEC 45
PASSAGE CHENAB 23 DEC 48
CHILLIANWALLAH 13 JAN 49
GOOJERAT 21 FEB 49
Wound at Ferozes
 
ON BOTTOM OF STICK  - a list of places where he was stationed - appear to be
in three sections  reading round
 
QUARTERED  AT    WOOLWICH - ALLAHABAD -   RANGOON
GHAZZEPORE -   CALCUTTA
EDINBURGH -    MEERUT -   CHATHAM
GLASGOW  -   KUSSOWLIE -   NOTTINGHAM
BELFAST -   FEROZEPORE
WEEDON -   WUZERABAD   EXETER
TILLURYTI -?   ADERUT?   PLYMOUTH
CHINSURAH -   DINAPORE
GHAZZERLORE -   VODEMEIN?   THEYATTON ??

Know he was quarted 1839 at Woolwich from service record, not on UK 1841/1851...married in Chatham Kent 1859, and first 2 daughters were born Plymouth.  I have a short list of places the 29th were stationed so sorry for any mispellings of oversea place names, difficult on how they read, but any imput appreciated
 
Richard Gibbons  possibly engraved the names himself or got someone in the Reg to do it as he travelled   There appear to be three main groups  His early UK days.  His India days and then his time back in UK.  That is what I am supposing?
 
We are both interested in reuniting the baton with the medals and photo in the Regimental museum at some point.

What I would like to know is the history, if anyone has any knowledge or imput...was it commonplace to have such a baton, does anyone know of others that exist, or was this something my grandfather just had as a momento of his army days, was this common and issued by the army, and he engraved it etc?

Any knowledge, advise or imput appreciated

Cas  :)

Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: scrimnet on Wednesday 23 April 08 07:47 BST (UK)
Hello cas

Well that is a marvelous thing to have!

Most photographs up to the end of WW2 will have chaps with one of these "walking out sticks". They are there to add a bit of swank to the individual...An affectation...

This may have been engraved as he went which I suspect, or was done as a presentation piece from the Sgts mess.

Actually the term "baton" is only properly applied to a Field Marshall's Baton !!

I bet the museum would love it to go with the medals!
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Wednesday 23 April 08 08:06 BST (UK)
Hi scrimnet

Great stuff, and I agree marvelous  ;D

Thanks for feedback....I did not think it would be called a 'stick'....I've  given him a bit more swank than his rank then lol.  Should I change the title? 

Cas
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: scrimnet on Wednesday 23 April 08 19:13 BST (UK)
No thats fine, educate and entertain the masses!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: Wendi on Thursday 24 April 08 08:59 BST (UK)
Great research Cas !

Just a little more to educate the masses !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swagger_stick

Wendi  :)

Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Thursday 24 April 08 10:18 BST (UK)
Thanks Wendi spot on!   :)

Will send the link to my cousin as he is writing a piece on Richard's military history.

Looking at the pics it does now look more like a 'stick' with the info from yourself and scrimnet

Cheers both

Cas
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 24 April 08 19:04 BST (UK)
Ummm Wikipedia......Never trust a "fact" on there until it can be verified at least x2 :(

Not technically correct on the British Army thing...Well hardly correct at all...

Officers canes (proper title) and the like are not rattan...they are cane...Clue is in the name... ::) ::)

Officers never had silver topped ones, and certainly never with a Regt crest! These were reserved for the Other Ranks as Cas quite rightly pointed out, those with more "swank than rank"!  8)

If you watch "Zulu" the Colour Sgt carries a silver topped one...

One cannot equate a Pace Stick with Walking out sticks and officer's canes...they are both "ceremonial" whilst the Pace Stick has a purpose ...to measure the distance between each step... ::)

Oh and Gieves and Hawkes have severely cut back on military kit...

And for heavens sake Wiki..what are "militaries"??? The contributor is writing from his posterior opening...  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Sorry Wendi...didn't mean to diss your post... :-*
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 24 April 08 19:14 BST (UK)
Grrrrrrrr!!!!!

Even the link from Wikigotitallwrongedia links to an Australian site written by an American spouting more garbage!

The only correct items (ish) are about Pace Sticks...


Picture of three officers "all carrying swagger sticks" Pish, tish and more TOSH!!!

They have Riding Crops...DERRRR!!!


I despair..... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: Wendi on Thursday 24 April 08 20:22 BST (UK)
Hi Scrim et al !!

Anyone reading Wiki surely understands the concept....sorry if I lead anyone astray.

Officers canes (proper title) and the like are not rattan...they are cane...Clue is in the name... ::) ::
 

Then made of what ???

Oh how I love these subjects  ;D

How would one distinguish between a Swagger, Officers Cane and a Pace Stick ? Please ?

Wendi
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 24 April 08 21:02 BST (UK)
Hi Scrim et al !!

Anyone reading Wiki surely understands the concept....sorry if I lead anyone astray.

Officers canes (proper title) and the like are not rattan...they are cane...Clue is in the name... ::) ::
 

Then made of what ???

Oh how I love these subjects  ;D

How would one distinguish between a Swagger, Officers Cane and a Pace Stick ? Please ?

Wendi

Not your fault Wendi... ;)

Well the answer is easy!

An officers cane is a piece of bamboo covered in leather

A Walking Out Stick / Cane/ "Swagger Stick" is like this...

Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 24 April 08 21:03 BST (UK)
And the Pace Stick is thus....
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: Wendi on Thursday 24 April 08 21:07 BST (UK)
Oh thanks ! 'specially for the Pace Stick pic, it all makes so much sense......

A pic says 1,000 words

Ta
Wendi  :)
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: atom12 on Thursday 24 April 08 21:17 BST (UK)
Yep

The Pace Stick one of the 3 aids to drill, "the drum, the metronome and the pace stick"  :)

Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: nanny jan on Thursday 24 April 08 21:28 BST (UK)

Can I hijack this thread?

What is he holding?  It's not a Pace Stick/Cane/Baton etc.   but a .............?

Still trying to identify this chap!



Nanny Jan
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 24 April 08 21:38 BST (UK)
Ummmm

Jam pot cuffs, belt from the 1888 valise equipment....Line infantry...Boy/private soldier....

Walking Out Stick...
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: nanny jan on Thursday 24 April 08 21:42 BST (UK)

Thanks scrimnet;  I was curious because it did not look like the other stick shown above.

Walking Out Stick;  to make him look smart but is of no use?


Nanny Jan
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 24 April 08 21:47 BST (UK)
Indeed...It's an affectation to impress the ladies and look good...
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: atom12 on Thursday 24 April 08 21:48 BST (UK)
Yep

Walking out stick.
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: Wendi on Thursday 24 April 08 21:48 BST (UK)
The Pace Stick one of the 3 aids to drill, "the drum, the metronome and the pace stick"  :)

I think my Pa knew an important 4th

The Drill Sergeant - his was (I thought called Sgt. Major Brittain, (sp.) but I can find no reference to him) but was sure he was the loudest man in the British Army  ;D

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 24 April 08 21:58 BST (UK)
The Pace Stick one of the 3 aids to drill, "the drum, the metronome and the pace stick"  :)

I think my Pa knew an important 4th

The Drill Sergeant - his was (I thought called Sgt. Major Brittain, (sp.) but I can find no reference to him) but was sure he was the loudest man in the British Army  ;D

Wendi  :)

RSM Brittain was the "Top Soldier" in the British Army and for a while a bit of a celeb....

Heres some footage

http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/individual/335397

Loathe though I am to use it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Brittain

He was in Carrington VC with David Niven
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: atom12 on Thursday 24 April 08 21:59 BST (UK)
Yes ... your Pa he probably did Wendi

I think even I have heard that illustrious name RSM Brittain, lol.

Can't work the pace-stick without the senior soldier putting in hours of practice to become proficient in the art of pacing the stick.  Some soldiers were able to do it with one in each hand (pace-sticks I mean)  ;D
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: Wendi on Thursday 24 April 08 22:04 BST (UK)
Thanks both !  That's him Srim!! I remember seeing him on TV loads of years ago and my Pa telling me (as he still shivered under the voice) that RSM Brittian had coached him in "voice commands"  ;D

LOL at you atom12 ;D :'( ;D  :-X :-X :-X

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: A Sergeants Baton
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Thursday 24 April 08 22:21 BST (UK)
Hi All...interesting stuff  :)

Attaching one pic, if anyone is interested...as I now know it is a swagger or walking out stick.  Cannot see any of the engravings in this full one though...

Thank you all for your imput, you learn summat new everyday  ;D

Cas