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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Thursday 24 April 08 22:40 BST (UK)
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Hi, Everyone,
Not sure whether I'm posting on the right board here, but last week a very good friend of mine visited from Denmark, and was very curious about her IZZARD family from Hitchin. She has always wondered as well where she might get her very dark skin colouring from...
So, when I came across a Charlotte MORLEY marrying her gt-gt-gt-grandfather George IZZARD in Hitchin in 1835, I was interested to see that she was born in "Barenpore", Bengal in 1816, according to the 1851 Census. She also had a daughter previous to her marriage called Mathilda MORLEY born in Ireland in 1833, according to the 1841 Census. So Charlotte certainly travelled about.
I remember one of the WDYTYA programmes featuring Alistair McGowan (was it?), in which the whole idea of Anglo-Indian parentage came to light.
I might be getting totally carried away here, but the Indian birthplace has got me thinking...
Is there anywhere I could look for a birth record for Charlotte MORLEY of 1814-1816 in Bengal - I do notice there are some later entries for individuals called Charlotte MORLEY in Bengal on the IGI.
Very many thanks,
keith
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From the marriage, do you know if she was widowed? It sounds like there may have been a military connection in which she married a Mr Morley who was stationed in India and then the family were transferred to Ireland.
Or do you have confirmation from another source (marriage certificate of one of the children?) that her maiden name was Morley and Matilda was illegitimate?
It does appear that George had been married before, right? Because of the son Charles who is 11 in 1841.
I had a look on http://indiafamily.bl.uk/ and http://search.fibis.org/ and couldn't see anything, other than a reference to a Charlotte MacNeelance who married William Morley in 1834 - timing is a bit off to be yours, really.
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Hi again, Jorose,
And thanks very much for trying to help me out with this rather strange puzzle. As you so rightly say, it would be a good idea to post on the Herts board and see whether anyone can have a look at that 1835 marriage entry at St Mary's Hitchin to see the status of both bride and groom - think I'll do that.
Then, in the 1841 Hitchin Census, where Charlotte appears for the first time, there is her husband George, children Charles aged 11, Richard aged 3, Alice aged 1, and Mathilda Morley aged 8.
George's baptism is in 1812, so I'd be surprised if he'd already been widowed himself, not at all sure where this Charles aged 11 fits in...
Then in the 1851 there is Charlotte IZZARD aged 35, living with Mathilda Morley daughter, aged 18(born Ireland). No sign of husband George, or an Alfred, their son, born in 1842. Charlotte's birthplace is given as "Baren pore" - Bengal (looks like it anyway)
Then in the 1861 Census, Charlotte has been widowed, and is living with her 19 year old son Alfred. Her birthplace here is given as "East India Hindoostan".
There's a death entry for a Charlotte IZZARD in Sept 1861 thereafter.
Quite a conundrum, not at all sure how she managed to have a daughter in Ireland at the age of 17 or 18, possibly, having been born in India before that.
keith
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Well, the son Charles b. about 1830 is before the marriage, which made me think George may have been married before. It wouldn't be unusual - I have one married at eighteen, married again at 20 (her husband died, aged 19, shortly after the marriage from tuberculosis), and one French woman who was on her third husband by age 25.
You might find that she grew up in Ireland, her father having been only temporarily stationed in India with the army, or that she was only in Ireland briefly, having gone there with her husband.
I do see a possible 1831 baptism for a Charles son of George - in Ippollitts, Hertford, to George and Mary Ann Izzard. There's also a Harris Izzard in 1833 in Hitchin to the same parents, then nothing further. The marriage of George Izzard to Mary Ann Balls took place in 1830 in Hitchin.
I would suspect that Harris Izzard died as an infant, as I can't find anything else about him, and Mary Ann probably around the same time, leaving George with Charles.
A Matilda Morley married 1856 in Hitchin, to William French - this is confirmed by the IGI/freebmd. She may have then remarried in 1870 to Joseph Farmer (freebmd) - 1871 census shows in Hitchin, Joseph Farmer, 36, and wife Matilda, 36, b. Ireland. In 1881 she gives her birthplace as "At Sea". They do not appear to have had children, or at least there are none with them in the census.
In 1901 she gives her birthplace as 'Born On Sea On Voyage From India'!
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Jorose,
You've done incredibly well with this, obviously spent a great deal of time poring over it. Thanks so much! I hadn't thought of following Mathilda through like this, and that entry about being born aboard ship while on her way from India adds to the drama and speculation.
I did start a thread on the Herts boards about possible details on that 1835 marriage between George IZZARD and Charlotte, but although I've had a great deal of help there, no-one so far has been able to give me a glimpse of that marriage entry...
keith
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Jorose,
Somebody has very kindly now come up with details of that 1835 Hitchin marriage, and yes, both bride and groom had indeed been married before.
And now I'm more than a little curious to know whether there is a precise date for that 1834 Indian marriage you mentioned earlier in this thread, between Charlotte MacNeelance and William MORLEY.
Must have a look at ALL the references to age regarding both Charlotte and her daughter Mathilda in the subsequent Censuses, to see whether this marriage might still fit (squeeze) into this particular fascinating jigsaw...
Regards, keith
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http://indiafamily.bl.uk/UI/FullDisplay.aspx?RecordId=014-000189738
This may be Charlotte McNeelance's early life in India.
http://indiafamily.bl.uk/UI/FullDisplay.aspx?RecordId=014-000189739
And this looks like a sister Amelia McNeelance.
http://indiafamily.bl.uk/UI/FullDisplay.aspx?RecordId=014-000189740
And a sister Maria too.
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http://indiafamily.bl.uk/UI/FullDisplay.aspx?RecordId=014-000177246
...and the death of their father Galbraith McNeelance
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Marriage date is given, if you look on http://indiafamily.bl.uk/, as 11 Jun 1834.
On the IGI there is a daughter born to a William Morley and a Charlotte listed in Calcutta in 1843/44, so this may be a red herring.
Matilda Morley's marriage certificate might be the way forward, as hopefully it will give her father's name and occupation.
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Hi again, Richard,
Yes, I've had a good look at these entries for the MACNEELANCE family now. It is possible to make a case for Charlotte MACNEELANCE being born in 1817, being part of a multiple family baptism in 1824, being married at the tender age of 17 to a William Morley on 11th June 1834. Her father Galbraith had died the previous year at the age of 55; and although he'd been an indigo planter, he'd died a pauper.
No sign of husband William dying suddenly, but at some time Charlotte gets on a ship heading back to Ireland or England in a pregnant state, before marrying again in April 1835 in Hitchin, Herts. Possible, but it stretches the imagination somewhat...
The other thing is, those Indian Records do contain errors, as per the example of my parents' marriage in 1945. It's not been mistranscribed from the original card system as I've seen the originals at the British Library. However, my mother's age is given as 29, instead of 19 (she was quite indignant when she saw that!), and my father has been given a fourth forename - Cameron - someone must have got confused with the fact that he was in the Cameron Highlanders at the time!
So, there are mistakes, and perhaps there are some incorrect dates in this MACNEELANCE story...
keith
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Jorose,
Hi again, and your calm voice of reason with that 1843/4 birth entry does seem to put the mockers on my fanciful theory now...
...and I think that would be a good idea to spend £7 on Mathilda's marriage certificate, though she might be coy with her real father's name, and put him down as George Izzard, or possibly leave that space blank.
keith
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I agree with Jorose that Matilda's marriage certificate would help, although here's something else for the fanciful theory:
Here's a Mrs Morley, seemingly travelling without husband on a ship called the Malabar from Bombay to London, which left Bombay on 3 Jan 1835.
http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps_detail.php?id=476760
If this is her, she didn't take long in finding George Izzard on arrival in England.
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Richard,
Well now! And where in the world might her daughter Mathilda be? Think I'll go and have a quiet lie down now and consider my rational options...
keith
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Hi Guys
I have tracked down through the Bengal Presidency Indexes, the LDS-IGIs and FIBIS re the MacNeelance family.
Parents: Galbraith MacNeelance, Ship builder /Indigo Planter, & Mary Ann ?
Galbraith b. circa 1788 died 27.8.1833 a pauper m. circa 1811
Children:
Maria MacNeelance b/d 1812 Presidency of Fort William, Calcutta
Maria MacNeelance b. 20.5.1813 bap. 8.6.1813 Presidency of Fort William, Calcutta, by Rev. Dr Warde; m. 22.11.1841 John Manuel, Govt. Steam Workshops
Coote MacNeelance b. 24.10.1814 bap. 17.12.1814 Presidency of Fort William, Calcutta, by Rev Dr Warde; d. 2.11.1844 at 31 yrs 6mths; profession Writer for Holmes & Co (this company was located at 39 Cossitollah, Calcutta, and produced the Bengal Obituary!!!); buried at South Park Street Cemetery in Grave SP9 (photo of headstone available)
Harriet MacNeelance b. April 1816 bap. 6.2.1824 Presidency of Fort William, Calcutta
Charlotte MacNeelance b. September 1817, bap. 6.2.1824 Presidency of Fort William, by Thos. Thomason Jnr Chaplain. Father's profession: Indigo Planter, Jessore; m. 11.6.1834 William MORLEY, Superintendent of Boats to Nawab of Moorshedabad.
Their children: William Samuel Morley b. 6.7.1836 m ? Child: William Clarendon Morley b.1865 m. Ida Blanche Stone by Banns on 14.2.1888 at Bandikui, d/o James Charles Stone. Groom was 23, bride 27. Witns: J Stone, G Hamilton & E S Morley
Sophia Mary Morley b. 13.9.1837 m. George Thomas Saviel by Banns on 10.1.1853 at Fort William; bride 15, groom 21, writer s/o George Saviel; Witns: J Lefever, JHB Wilkie & E S Girrikin [Jerriken]
James Galbraith Morley b. 4.7.1840 m. Constantina Lavinia Savage by Banns on 30.4.1859 at St. Andrew's Church, Calcutta. Groom was 20, bride 17 d/o William Savage; Witns: F W Matthew, N S Morley & F H Matthew
Children: William James Morley b. Jan 1864 d. 5.5.1865 at Banares at 1yr 4mths, from Dentition and Dysentery
Grace Georgiana Morley b. ? m. Alfred Winter on 24.8.1887 at St. John's Church. Alfred was full age, Stevedore's Asst. Witns: M Watkins & William Ord
Louisa Adeline Morley b. 10.8.1843.
Children William, Sophia and James were baptised on 5.9.1841
Amelia MacNeelance 7.1.1819 bap. 6.2.1824 Presidency of Fort William, by Thos Thomason Jnr Chaplain; Father's profession: Indigo Plnter, Jessore m. 10.10.1834 James David Daniell; died 8.2.1853 at 34yrs 2mths; buried 9.2.1853 at South Park Street Cemetery by Chap. of St. James' Church. NOTE: sisters Amelia and Louisa (my ancestor) married brothers James and Thomas Daniell (latter my ancestor).
Robert MacNeelance b. 16.9.1820 bap. 6.2.1824 Presidency of Fort William by Thos. Thomason Jnr. Chap. Father's prof. Indigo Planter, Jessore
Eliza MacNeelance b. 24.8.1822 bap. 6.2.1824 Presidency of Fort William by Thos. Thomason Jnr Chap; m. 18.10.1842 J Jerrican Jnr
Child: Eliza Jane Gerkin [Jerrican] b. 14.5.1853 bap. 9.12.1853 at Old Church, Fort William, Calcutta
Maria MacNeelance b. 18.12.1824 at Chandernagore bap. 6.1.1833 at Old Church, Calcutta by Richard Beth-Boyes Jnr Chap; Father's prof: formerly Assistant to the Late M Smith Esq., Shipbuilder
Louisa Matilda MacNeelance b. 4.12.1826 Calcutta, bap. 6.1.1833 at Old Church, Calcutta by Richard Beth-Boyes Jnr Chap; Father's prof: formerly Assistant to the Late M Smith Esq., Shipbuilder; m. Thomas Jeremiah (John) Daniell (b. 1820 d. 22.3.1900 at 80, from heart disease and albumina; Govt. pensioner) by Banns on 16.6.1845 at St. John's Cathedral, Calcutta, by H S FIsher Snr. Presidency Chap; Witns: J D Daniell, J G Grant & Wm. E. Branscombe. Bride was 'under' age; groom was 25. Louisa died 17.5.1903 at 73 from heart disease; bur. 18.5.1903 at the General Episcopal Cemeteries Circular Road & Park Street by Stuart H Clark, Chap. Old Church of England.
Anna MacNeelance b. 27.7.1829 bap. 6.1.1833 Old Church, Calcutta, by Richard Beth-Boyes; Father's prof: Formerly Assistant to the Late M Smith Esq., Shipbuilder; m. 18.8.1851 Frederick Deefholts; both residing at Collingha, Calcutta.
Child: Richard Deefholts
NOTE: Mary Ann was baptised with son Coote MacNeelance on 17.12.1814, at age 19. She was wrongly mentioned as being the daughter of Galbraith McNeelance and NOT his wife. However carefully examining her y/o/b (1814 - 19yrs = 1795). At death Mary Ann was said to be the wife of Galbraith who was 59 when she died in 1854 (1854 - 59 = 1795). Any researcher would recognise a mistake as was in the case of Mary Ann's baptism.
Further, a relative (possibly brother / cousin) named Thomas MacNeelance was a shipbuilder / Master / Owner of Frederick & Maria and Master / Owner of Matilda, sailing to Sydney, Shoalhaven, Derwent, Pearl Islands, Easter Islands, Canton and Port Louis. In his will Thomas 'bequeath into my relation Glabraith Macneelance of Calcutta all my worldly effects of what nature or kind..."
Thomas was b. 1775 (Galbraith b. 1778) place unknown, d. 15.2.1820 Calcutta at 45, Captain of Country Service.
May I confirm that in the 25 years of researching my family history, I have come across heaps of (human) errors as in the case of Mary Ann being noted in the baptism record as Galbraith's daughter!!!
Hope the above is of some help to you Keith. In turn can you fill me in with the details you have on Charlotte's second marriage etc ???
Pam
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Hi Pam, and welcome to Rootschat!
Have only just this minute arrived home from a 10-day holiday in Denmark, so apologies for not replying sooner to your amazing post on the MACNEELANCE family. By a strange coincidence I was supposed to be meeting this Saturday the friend whose query about Charlotte MORLEY started this thread, but at the last moment she was unable to travel from Copenhagen to Als, where I was staying in a summer house.
Will need a little time to digest all the incredible detail you have come up with here, but as soon as I do, I'll be in touch again.
This post is simply an acknowledgement of your previous post, and to explain why I hadn't replied sooner!
Very best wishes,
keith
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Hi Keith
Thanks for the warm welcome. Found RootsChat by chance as a result of the discussion on MacNeelances. :) Hope the info is of help.
There were heaps of Morleys in India so the uncertainty exists whether it was Charlotte leaving Bombay for London on 3 Jan 1835.
Let me know if I can be of any further assistance. Appreciate receiving your comments.
Kind regards
Pam
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Pam,
Funny how a bit of a break away from Rootschat confuses the memory somewhat, but I do recollect that someone on here, either by PM or on another thread gave me the info that Mathilda gave her father's name as John MORLEY at one of her marriages, the second one I think.
Though it is entirely possible that she never knew him and might have been guessing or going on hearsay...
keith
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Keith
FIBIS has John Morley marrying Elizabeth King in 1852 at Madras, the LDS has two Charlotte Morleys born in 1843 & 1865.
I get the feeling Charlotte MacNeelance & William Morley to be a different family.
Pam
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FRENCH, William
Matilda MORLEY
Marriage Date:1 Nov 1856 St Mary Hitchin, Hertfordshire
Husband's Father:William FRENCH
Wife's Father:John MORLEY
one of the Izzard children's birth certificates would establish their mother Charlotte's maiden name.
1841 census HO107 445/1 folio 31
Hitchin
George Izzard 30 Labourer born Hertfordshire
Charlotte Izzard 25 born Foreign parts
Charles Izzard 11 born Hertfordshire
Richard Izzard 3 born Hertfordshire
Alice Izzard 1 born Hertfordshire
Matilda Morley 8 born Ireland
ALICE IZZARD
Christening: 22 MAY 1840 Hitchin, Hertford
Death: 04 SEP 1841
Father: GEORGE IZZARD
Mother: CHARLOTTE
Births Jun 1840
Izzard Alice Hitchin 6 552
Deaths Sep 1841
IZZARD Alice Hitchin 6 325
RICHARD IZZARD
Christening: 21 SEP 1838 St Mary, Hitchin, Hertford
Father: GEORGE IZZARD
Mother: CHARLOTTE
More tricky possible birth registration
Births Sep 1838
IZZARD Male Hitchin 6 503
no subsequent Male death registration in the same quarter.
or
ALFRED IZZARD
Christening: 30 MAR 1842 St Mary, Hitchin, Hertford
Father: GEORGE IZZARD
Mother: CHARLOTTE
Births Mar 1842
Izzard Alfred Hitchin 6 563
Regards
Valda
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Burial
St Ippollitts Ippollitts
6th February 1834
John MORLEY
aged 28
Could be a convenient red herring as there are 8 locally born Morleys in Ippollitts on the 1851 census and one born Bedfordshire.
Regards
Valda
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Pam,
Yes, I'm afraid it's looking as though the Charlotte MacNeelance/William Morley alliance may not be the correct one and is indeed a different family. It produces someone with the correct name in Charlotte Morley, but the selfsame family continue in India well beyond the timeframe in which we're hoping to fit this puzzle together...
And Valda, thanks for reminding me that Mathilda's father's name was given on her first marriage certificate. However, if that info about John Morley is indeed correct, then it's likely that her mother Charlotte's family name was something else other than Morley before she married John (if she did!)
That death of John Morley in exactly the right area in 1834 looks tempting, but somehow it seems to rule out the whole India/ Ireland saga - or does it?
I'm beginning to wonder whether this one will ever be solved, in spite of sterling work by so many Rootschatters on here...
keith
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...too bleary-eyed and befuddled to take everything in in your post, Valda, concerning the birth certificates of George and Charlotte's children. Of course I should order one of these to establish what maiden name Charlotte gives - just hope she doesn't give her name formerly as MORLEY.
As usual I've sent all the research I did on the IZZARD family to my friend in Denmark without keeping exact copies of the tree, etc., but I think her direct ancestor was Alfred, b. 1842, so I'll send away for that and hope she's happy to reimburse me...!
keith
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An update,
Alfred's 1842 birth certificate came today, and sad to say his mother Charlotte IZZARD gave her name as "formerly MORLEY".
So we're no nearer the truth about her origins after all. And as her daughter Mathilda gives her father's name as John MORLEY when she first marrries in 1856, Charlotte presumably must have had a maiden name of another sort before her first marriage to husband MORLEY...
keith
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Or it could of course mean her maiden name was actually Morley.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Pam,
My name is George Thomas Saviel and I have been searching
for my Greatgrandfather George Thomas Saviel who was born in India about 1827.
I think he married in India in 1853 to Sophia Mary Morley and
Later remarried in Burma in 1873 to Daw Hnin Si.
Sophia Mary Saviel Remarried in 1894 in Calcutta India to
Henry .M. Josephs .
I donot know about George Saviel Snr he was buried in
Calcutta on 10 Sept.1833.
Thats all I know.
George Thomas Saviel Was a Accountant for the India Public
Works Dept. in India and Burma from 1861-1888.
He died sometime betwheen 1890 and 1905 in Burma.
I hope this help.
George.T.Saviel
13 July 2008
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Dear Pam,
I would like to know if you know any thing about George
Thomas Saviel who married Sophia Mary Morley.
His fathers name was George Saviel.
Do you know his mothers name.
Sophia Mary Saviel Remarried in Calcutta in 1894 to Henry
Maseyk Joseph 64 Widower Jeweler. at Lall Bazor Baptist church in Callcutta,India.
His Father was Araton Jacob Joseph.
I hope this help you.
Yoursfaithfully,
George Thomas Saviel
14 July 2008. :) :) :)
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Good luck all with finding records of the McNeelance surname! This is a very rare surname. I've been trying to find the parents of George McNeelance born 1788 in Northern Ireland. His parents immigrated to the United States when he was a baby or a very small child. He had a sister Mary & a brother John both older then him. The parents died shortly after arrival in America and the children were separated. George had no memory of them. The farm family George was indentured to told him this. Early documents record the surname as McNeelance, in later records the name is shortened and became McNeelan, all known descendants of George now bear the name McNeelan. Records of the sister Mary have been found. Her name is recorded as McNeelance. John has not been found.
The source of the above information merely tells us he was born near the boundary of Scotland and Ireland. The reference to Scotland is thought to mean The Ulster Plantation of Northern Ireland that was settled by Scots. United States census records also list his birthplace as Ireland. Source information was a letter written in 1904 by George's son John Davis McNeelan to his niece Susan George and the 1850 U.S. Census record for Columbiana, Co., Ohio.
I have seen these McNeelance family records in India as well. I have no known connection to a common ancestor between our McNeelance families but given the rarity of the name I find the possibility very likely.
I have seen a few other McNeelance or variant spellings in America who came before and a few afterwards, besides these families, the largest & most consistent concentration of families I have found with this surname can be found in Tyrone County, Ireland. PRONI (Public Records if Northern Ireland) have this name along with variant spellings listed in their Ecatalogue. The earliest reference is around 1720. They are also mentioned in the Letters from the Abercorn estates. The access to PRONI is online and free. Be sure to search the name McNeilance as well, the spellings seem to be interchangeable. There were really no established rules about spelling before the late 1800's, whoever was doing the recording spelled it the way it sounded.
Interestingly, these records from PRONI mention the town of Strabane whose River Foyle is the boundary between Northern Ireland and what is now the Irish Republic. This would fit quite nicely with the statement that my George McNeelance was born near the boundary of Scotland, presumably Ulster Ireland, and Ireland. Also, many immigrants from Tyrone County are found in and around Allegheny County, Pennsylvania where the earliest records of George's adulthood can be found.
I have been trying to discover the name of George's parents for at least 35 years. Sadly, the letter written by his son does not mention the parents by name, it only refers to them as his "parents".
There will be a DNA surname project in the near future for the name McNeelance. Any males who carry the surname are invited to join. The surname project traces the DNA that is carried only by the direct male line of descent. It will establish a common ancestral origin if one exists and predict the number of generations from the most recent common ancestor. The surname project will be found under McNeelan at FamilytreeDNA. We have the kit but have not yet submitted DNA. I am a female, my brother will be contributing the DNA. Variants will be any possible spelling of McNeelance, McNeilance, McNeelans, McNeilan, McNeelan, etc.
If any researching the McNeelance surname stumble upon records from my family please post!! I will do the same. I haven't seen any records of the India McNeelance familes that aren't already spoken about in these posts. If I find additional information I will do the same.
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Hello everyone! Firstly let me introduce myself! I’m sarah and currently researching Charlotte Morley!! I couldn’t believe this group chat came up when I searched baron pore Bengal! My grandfathers surname is Izzard and Charlotte Morley is his great great grandmother. So this information so far has helped us with more of an insight! Any other info would be great! Also would be interesting as to who in my distant family is also researching the Izzard name! Many thanks and hope to hear from someone soon!
Sarah