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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: Janice M on Wednesday 30 April 08 06:11 BST (UK)
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Hopefully someone can help.
I have found some conflicting information, and don’t quite know which is true
This is what I know:
I am looking for information on a Janet Leitch who married a Duncan MacKellar in Kilmodan, Argyll, Scotland on January 9th, 1819.
They immigrated to Australia approximately 1825. They had at least 3 children while still in Kilmodan, Argyll, Scotland.
Ellar MacKellar born October 20th, 1819 Kilmodan (also referred to as Duncan)
Alexander MacKellar born December 23rd, 1821 Kilmodan
John Garvie MacKellar born June 2nd, 1824 Kilmodan
Apparently, Janet was murdered in March of 1828 in a place called Camden. (Her usual residence was Shoalhaven.)
This is where it gets confusing. ???
This site states that Duncan, Janet and 3 children arrived on a ship captained by Duncan’s uncle. His name was also Duncan.
http://www.my-broun-wyld-stewart-lang-ancestry.org.uk/duncan-mackellar-3.shtml
In the book Horsemen of the First Frontier 1788-1900 and The Serpent's Legacy written By Keith R. Binney states that Duncan MacKellar’ father was Captain Neil MacKellar. It gives the impression that there was no younger Duncan and who was thought to be the uncle in the other link, was actually the husband of Janet. (?) This book also implies that Janet Leitch must have been married before, as they refer to a maiden name of “Lamond”
http://tinyurl.com/5f5vpv
I would love to know which version is in fact true, or which facts from each are true. I would also like to know if there are any newspaper reports on her death, along with trial transcripts, as well as where she could be buried. It would be interesting to find any information at all, that might clarify once and for all, if this is the same Janet Leitch of my line.
I have included a link to another query that I had regarding the Leitch family on the Argyll section of Rootschat.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,112305.0.html
This is the Janet Leitch of my line listed with her siblings and parents.
Alexander Leitch & Mary Weir
Married: March 28, 1794 - Kilmodan
Children:
Janet Leitch - March 16, 1796 - Kilmodan
Walter Leitch - September 24, 1797 - Kilmodan
James Leitch - April 20, 1800 - Kilmodan
Mary Leitch - July 17, 1802 - Kilmodan
Anne Leitch - August 19, 1804 - Kilmodan
Margaret Leitch - December 4, 1806 - Kilmodan
Mennie Leitch - December 8, 1808 - Kilmodan
Jane Leitch - January 1, 1809 - Kilmodan
Elizabeth Leitch - May 6, 1815 – Kilmodan
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http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/search.htm
this is a link to the nSW on line BDM's
I cannot see a death registered for Janet but I do see a birth for the couple
V18283177 45B/1828 MCKELLAR DUNCAN E DUNCAN JANET
V1828362 47/1828 MCKELLAR DUNCAN E DUNCAN JANET
The BDM's site lists a spelling for both Mc and Mac
a couple of this certificate might confirm the mothers name but I do not know exactly what information is on the very early registrations.
regards Jenn
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Janet's death is on the NSW BDM site. It appears that some of the MCKELLARs are listed with a space between the MC and the KELLAR - and one has to type it exactly thus >:( (I found this only by looking for the death of a Janet in 1828!)
V18287769 1828 2C/ MC KELLAR, Janet, Age 27
And possibly a duplicate:
V18281279 1828 12/MC KELLAR, Jane, Age 27
JAP
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Well done JAP
can be quite confusing sometimes.. the NSW BDm site that is with the Macs and Mc and now MC space sounds like a Rap star 8)
regards Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
From your find of the 1828 birth, it rather looks as though Ellar (b 1819 in Kilmodan) did not survive.
So the three sons mentioned in the extracts would be Alexander & John (both born in Kilmodan), and Duncan E (born in 1828 in NSW - he must have been just weeks/months old when his mother was murdered in Mar 1828).
JAP
PS: A quote from one of the books cited in the first website Janice M referred to seems to indicate that Ellar (born in Kilmodan) had died before the family emigrated. It reads (emphasis added):
"In 1825 his nephew, Duncan Mackellar Junior, had travelled with his wife, Janet and two sons, on his uncle's ship to Sydney and received a grant of 640 acres which he selected ten miles south-west of Strathalan, to the west of the Shoalhaven River in the County of Murray. A third son was born in the colony soon after they arrived ..."
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http://www.heritage.nsw.gov.au/07_subnav_01_2.cfm?itemid=5054706
Some interesting information about their land. they did not apparently live there until after the death of Janet, according to this source.
Sue
Better link MODIFIED
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Looking again, I realize that the 1828 'birth' entry would actually be a baptism (i.e. from the early church records) so little Duncan E might have been a bit older.
And another extract from the first site refers to a census taken in late 1828 (presumably one of those early musters which survives) and refers to the widowed Duncan living with his three sons who are named as Alexander 7, John 5 and Duncan Elar 2. Yes, the ages for Alexander and John are a bit out (and possibly little Duncan also) but I guess their poor father did not have his mind on the muster in a year when his wife had been murdered and his house had been burnt down.
Incidentally, the quotes on the first site (from Netta Ellis) seem to have been meticulously researched.
I wonder whether the second site has managed to confuse a number of Duncan MCKELLARs (not an uncommon name!) - on the one hand Australian-born Lieutenant Duncan MACKELLAR R.N., born in 1796 in NSW, son of Neil MACKELLAR (who had arrived in NSW in 1792) and, on the the hand, Duncan MCKELLAR from Kilmodan and Uncle Duncan MCKELLAR, Master of the 'City of Edinburgh'.
JAP
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Hi Sue,
I guess it's a bit ambiguous? It says that Uncle Duncan was granted the Strathallan land in 1822 but that he didn't move onto the land until about 1829.
Then later on it says that Uncle Duncan joined Nephew Duncan at Strathallan about 1829 - which seems to imply that Nephew Duncan was already living there.
JAP
PS: Though looking again at the Braidwood area extracts, it seems that Nephew Duncan was actually down at Strathallan building a home for the family when Janet was murdered.
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Wow!
Thank you Jenn, JAP and Sue.
Looking at the Heritage Branch site, it would appear that Captain Duncan and nephew were the correct ones.
I will have to order the certificates to see if they can provide more information.
I must have read the "Broun" site several times over and never noticed it said 2 children. :P Thank you for pointing that out. I will check Scotland to see if I can find a death for the first Duncan Ellar.
Thanks again!
Janice
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Dear Janice
Can you assist me, I am trying to unravel the McKellar (Mackellar) connection also. I started with Alexander Duncan Mackellar who was born in Argyll 23 Dec 1821 and came to Aust with his parents, father Duncan and I had seen in Horseman of the First Frontier that he had a brother Duncan Elar. So is this the family from Braidwood and if so, is his father Duncan the son of Neil Mackellar and convict Sarah Cooley. I read that Neil's five children had been taken back to Scotland after Neil disappeared aboard "the Caroline". However the notes I have said that Duncan became a Lieut in the Royal Navy, there was also a son William Neil, a daughter Elizabeth who married a John Francis Drummond, and two other daughters Isabella and Lilias. The Uncle nephew situation has me confused, as it sounds like Alexander's father could be both the uncle and the nephew.
with thanks
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I am positve, that these are 2 "different" families.
Duncan MacKellar & Janet Leitch
http://www.ohmatron.com/familytree/gp185.htm
http://www.my-broun-wyld-stewart-lang-ancestry.org.uk/duncan-mackellar-3.shtml
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2190088?searchTerm=Duncan+MacKellar+murder
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2190100?searchTerm=MacKellar+murder
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2184049?searchTerm=Mrs.+MacKellar
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1090677?searchTerm=Mrs.+MacKellar
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Neil MacKellar
http://adbonline.anu.edu.au/biogs/A020148b.htm
Sarah Cooley
http://www.cooleyfamilyassociation.com/CFAA_Newsletter_Nov_2009.pdf
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-CONVICTS/2001-09/1000212882
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS/2003-06/1055406075
Neil & Sarah
http://www.rootschat.com/links/081e/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/081f/
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I have been going through my information, but can't remember who told me that some of the information regarding Neil MacKellar was wrong when it was linked to Duncan and Janet MacKellar.
Janice
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Yes I can see how easy that would be to do, this is what I had found...
"I have additional information relating to the children of Sarah COOLEY and Neil MACKELLAR, and would love to share information with any interested parties. Liz Penprase
Her boat, the Mary Ann, reached Sydney on 9 June, 1791.
I haven't found any record of Sarah Cooley's and Neil MacKellar's marriage, and the likely birth records indicate that they were not married. So this may have been another one of those early liaisons that the authorities wanted to "regularised".
Sarah's and Neil's children were:
Elizabeth MacKellar Born: 9 Dec 1793 Died: Cal 1859 (London)
Duncan MacKellar Born: 5 Dec 1795 Died: 1853 (Calcutta)
He is recorded as returning to Australia in 1825 with three children.
Isabella MacKelllar Born: 8 Oct 1798 Died: 14 May 1883 (Hobart)
and two others - one male, one female.
I had a note re the schooling of the children - the McK rellies in Britain took (some of?) them "home" for education. They were brought up to be of their father's class, despite the lack of a marriage.
I am linked to Sarah Cooley through Isabella MacKellar."
I also found V
Lieutenant Duncan MacKellar, R.N. (b. 4 December 1796).is this the same Duncan? So who do you think is the father of MY Alexander
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I'm not sure who Alexander's parents were, but there was an Alexander MacKellar born in Argyll to parents (Duncan MacKellar & Mary Campbell) according to the LDS site. (Possibly they have some documentation to prove all of this)
LDS
http://www.familysearch.org/
I know this is a great site. (Unfortunately, you have to pay to view)
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
You should also put a posting on both the Australian page in Rootschat, as well as the "Argyll" Scotland page. Everyone on this site is terrific in helping.
Good Luck!
Janice
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Hi Janice
Here is my Alexander's obit, albeit the date is a bit dodgy you can see my dilemma
Mr Alexander Mackellar
A very old resident of New South Wales, died yesterday at the Union Club. Born in Argyllshire, Scotland, in 1815, Mr. Mackellar landed in Australia with his'parents when he was 4 years of ago. After spending several years in the Camden and Braidwood districts, he settled, in 1854, ,on the"Richmond River, where he acquired the property on which the town of Kyogle now stands. Subsequently, he sold out on the Richmond, and removed to Goulburn district, where he had since resided. Mr. Mackellar was for many years connected with the turf in this State, and had the unique honour of being doyen of the Australian Jockey Club. He was, In fact, one of its earllest members, and in 1859 contributed towards tho ooBt of the formation of Randwick racecourse, the site of which, in those days, was a sandy, scrubby waste. He was for many years a member of the A.J.C. committee, and at one time for a period of about I5 months occupied the position of chairman, Though not actlvely engaged in the sport, he owned several racehorses chief of whom were Fireworks, winner of the A.J.C. Derby in 1807, and Bulglnbar, who won Tattersalls Cup In 1808. Both horses, however, ran in other Interests. Of late years Mr. Mackellar had ceased to occupy an official position in the club, but his was always a familiar figure at its race meetings. Mr. Mackellar leaves a daughter and three sons, one of whom Is Mr. H.L. Mackellar, who used to manage Kirkham stables, and who was recently appointed , starter to the A.J.C. 30 August 1904 Sydney Morning Herald
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The notice you that you talked about
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14653623?searchTerm=MacKellar#pstart1331586
Here is another
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14633672?searchTerm=MacKellar
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14633637?searchTerm=MacKellar
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Janice
you believe that this Alexander was not connected with Janet and Duncan and Braidwood, I agree the connection is tenuous, aside from "Horseman" and mention of Braidwood in his obit. Can you tell me your thoughts?
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The way it was told to me, was that sometime after his wife's death, Duncan (nephew of the (Senior) Duncan MacKellar) went back to Scotland with his children, and remained there until his death.
But, I have also been told that it was Duncan (Senior) that went back to Scotland with his wife and family (?), and that the younger Duncan died in 1838 at age 40 in Sydney.
??? :P
So, this Alexander could very well be related to Duncan and Janet.
I have sent you a personal message with one of the stories.
Janice
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Sorry Janice I'm a novice and dont know what to do to get the personal message ::)
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Hi airliem,
If you see at the top of the page next to the roots chat banner there is your user name and " you have x (number) messages, x (number) are new. Left click on the messages link
Cheers
Akira
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Thank you Akira!
Janice
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Hi .. I found your conversation and wonder if my MacKellars are also tied in as I have found that Neil (died 1802) is possibly a nephew of General Patrick MacKellar, therefore cousin of Admiral John MacKellar who has a daughter named Lilly Augusta Drummond MacKellar .. wondering if there is a tie in because Neil's daughter Elizabeth married John Francis Drummond. Would love any info you have about them. They are a fascinating family!!
Thanks
Gina 8)
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Australian Dictionary of Biography - Online Edition
Drummond, John (fl. 1808 - 1823)
Cultural Heritage: Scottish
Occupation: duellist public servant
DRUMMOND, JOHN (fl.1808-1823), public servant, was the second son of Captain Francis Pinkerton Drummond (1749-1820) of the 98th Regiment, and a descendant of William Drummond of Hawthornden, Midlothian, the celebrated seventeenth century Scottish poet and historian. He took over certain of his father's interests in Scotland by deed executed in 1808. Within the next few years he married Elizabeth, who was born in New South Wales in 1793, the eldest child of Captain Neil MacKellar of the New South Wales Corps and a convict, Sarah Cooley. To his father this was a most 'unfortunate marriage' and in 1814 Drummond was appointed Naval Officer at Hobart Town. He travelled out to Sydney with his wife and first son, John Duncan Wellington, in the Marquis of Wellington, arrived in January 1815, and moved on to Hobart in July, having been joined in Sydney by Mrs Drummond's two sisters, Isabella and Lilias McKellar.
Drummond appears to have given satisfaction in his official position in Van Diemen's Land. He was active in the suppression of smuggling, and received two land grants totalling more than 1200 acres (406 ha), though bushranging activities prevented their cultivation. He was involved in a pistol duel with Ensign Thomas Lascelles in October 1815, and was a foundation member of the Waterloo Club formed in 1816 to honour the great victory. In May 1817 he was active in trying to check the improper behaviour of Lieutenant Charles Jeffreys in the Kangaroo.
Drummond's downfall came in his domestic behaviour. An intimate association developed between him and his sister-in-law, Lilias McKellar, who was living in his household. In August 1817 Lilias bore him a child, which she allegedly murdered, whereupon he buried it. At the coroner's inquest a Hobart jury found that the child had been murdered by Lilias with aid from Drummond and a servant woman. The three were committed for trial in Sydney where, though the burial was not denied, they were acquitted of the charge of murder for want of sufficient evidence. Drummond, who had been immediately suspended from office, appealed to Governor Lachlan Macquarie for reinstatement and asked that the details of the trial be suppressed in the Sydney Gazette, since the publicity would distress his respected family in Britain. Moved to grant the latter request, Macquarie nevertheless thought that Drummond was unfit to serve the government and dismissed him in December 1817. Lilias, who was only about 20 at the time of her indiscretion, subsequently married Nathaniel Elliot in Hobart in June 1820 and died in December 1896. Mrs Drummond remained loyal to her husband throughout, though distressed by his association with her sister; she bore him a son in 1816 at Hobart, and another in 1819 at Sydney. Drummond sailed for England with his wife and sons in the Admiral Cockburn in March 1820, and settled at Addlestone, Surrey. From there he administered his Scottish interests, and when the deed of 1808 was registered in 1823 he was described as 'Sir John Francis Drummond, formerly Naval Officer at the Derwent, Van Diemen's Land'.
J. F. Drummond is not to be confused with John Drummond, a marine, who was beachmaster at Norfolk Island in 1796-1812 and then lived near Sydney on a small pension.
Select Bibliography
Historical Records of Australia, series 1, vols 8-9, series 3, vol 2; M. Hookey (ed), Bobby Knopwood and His Times (Hob, 1929); manuscript catalogue under John Drummond (State Library of New South Wales); correspondence file under John Drummond (Archives Office of Tasmania). More on the resources <../references/A010310r.htm>
Author: R. L. Wettenhall
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SHIP NEWS. On "Wednesday last sailed for Hobart Town His Majesty's armed brig Emu, Capt. Forster.—Passengers : Mrs. Forster, Mr. Drummond, Naval Officer at that Settlement; Mrs Drummond, and two Misses McKellar ; Mr. Wood, As- sistant Surgeon 46th Regiment ; Mr. Evan's, De- puty Surveyor of Lands; Mr. Younge, A&sistunt Surgeon ; and Mrs. Younge.The Sydney Gazette and New South Wales Advertiser (NSW : 1803-1842)
Saturday 22 July 1815
Hobart Town ;
SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 1817.
Sitting Magistrate-Rved. ROBERT KNOPWOOD, A. M;
SHIPS NEWS.-On Tuesday last sailed for Port Jackson, His Majesty;s colonial brig Elizabeth Henrietta, Mr. WHYTE, Master, Passengers, Mrs. Hogan & family, Mrs Drummond, Messers .Jemott, Fawkner, and Belvin.-John Diummond,Esq; Miss Mackellar and Mary Evers, lately commited on a charge of murder, were sent up in this vessel for trial ; and al those bushrangerss who were lately lentenced to be sent to the Coal River, New South Wales: alio the, cutter Mctmaid, Capt. ^HOLCY.-PalTergera, A. F» Kemp, Lfq, and Lieutenant Nunn, of the 46th Regiment.
GOVERNMENT AND GENERAL ORDERS.
Government House, Sydney,
Saturday, 15th Nov. 1817.
CIVIL department.
fl| IS Excellency the Governor is pleased, on the Recommendation of His Honor the Lieutenant Governor of Van Diemen's Land, to appoint John Belmont Gent, of Hobart Town, to the Situation of Naval Officer there, in the Room of John Drummond, Esq. removed from that Office, until the Pleasure of His RoyaV Highness the Prince Regent shall be made known.
By His Excellency's Command,
J. T. Campbell, Secretary.
Mr Drummond leaving the Colony by an early opportunity, and also Miss Mackellar, request all claims (if any) to be presented. The Sydney Gazette and New South Wales Advertiser (NSW : 1803-1842)Saturday 10 January 1818
Mr Drummond, Master Wellington Drummond, leaving the Colony by an early Opportunity, request all Claims (if any) to-be presented
MISS Mackellar proceeding to the Derwent by an early Opportunity, requests all Claims (if any) to be presented. The Sydney Gazette and New South Wales Advertiser (NSW : 1803-1842) (Saturday 17 January 1818
TWENTY POUNDS REWARD, WHEREAS on Wednesday Night the 30th' Ultimo, or early on Thursday Morning, the 1st Instant, a most daring Robbery was committed,, by the Party or Parties breaking and entering at one of the front Windows of my Residence in Argyle-street, and the follow ing Articles stolen therefrom; viz.-A very thick old.fashioned gold Watch, made by An- drew Dunlop,London No.900; a gold Chain; a gold key and two gold seals one of which has on it a Court of Arms, the Motto "Pru dentia et Marte, " the other a Crest, a Pegasus, with the initials J.D. ; a silver Hunting Watch, Maker's Name G. Robinson, London; a gold Ring; two pair of silver Knee-buckles; two scarlet.figured Watch Ribbaads; a large Tele scope; a small Pocket Compass; a canister of Gunpowder; a bag of Shot, No.3; a horn Powder flask, bound with brass; several Gun flints ; a Hand Vice; an English Fishing-line ; a case of Lancets; a Razor; a Bible bound in Calf-skin ; one Volume of Button's Natural History ; a wooden Machine for working Purses; one black And two white Lace Veils ; a black lace Cloak ; a grey cloth Pelisse; a Mock Camel's hair Shawl ; a Plum colored satin Spencer ; a white Frenen Silk Handker chief, with a brocaded border ; a scarlet lustre Gown ; two black Italian Net Gowns; a quani ty of Bed and Table Linen, Wearing Apparel of every description. Children's Clothes,Ribbands, Sewing Silk. Thread, Balls of Cot- ton, Shirt-buttons, Button.moulds, a Parcel of Promissory Notes, and several valuable Papers of no use to any one but myself, Whoever will give Information so as to lead to a Discovery of the above Property, or any Part thereof, and bring to conviction the Per- petrators or the Burglary, shall receive the above Reward. JOHN DRUMMOND. October 17th, 1818.
JOHN DRUMMOND, Esq., and Mrs, Drummond, .and family proceeding to Sydney in the Young Lachlan Schooner, request all Claims may.be immediately presented for Payment.The Hobart Town Gazette and Southern Reporter (Tas. : 1816-1821)Saturday 27 February 1819
JOHN DRUMMOND, Esq and Mrs,Drummond and Family, intending to proceed to Sydney on the Ship Hibernia, request all Claims may be forthwith presented The Hobart Town Gazette and Southern Reporter (Tas. : 1816-1821) Saturday 5 June 1819
SHIP NEWS« »-On Monday Iast sailed for Port Jackson, the transport ship Hibernia, Captain JOHN LENNON, having on board for that place about 6000| bushels of wheat, and a quantity of other produce of this Settlement.--Paffengcrs, Charles Carter, Efq. Surgeon of the Roy- al Navy j Lieutenant Mee, of ' the 83d Regiment} Rev. Mr. Hill, Affiliant Chaplain of New South Wales, Mrs. H ill ; Mr. Smith and family; Edward Lord, Efq. 5 Rowland Walpole Loane, Efq, Mr. John Drummond, Mrs. Drummond and family. Mr. Thomas Kent 5 Mrs. Murray j Mr. B. H. Ainfworth; Mr. M. Dowfon j and various prifoners and evidence-^among the' former are for trial, William Slater and Frederick Shafforr, committed on a charge of iheep-ftealing to a considerable extent. The Hobart Town Gazette and Southern Reporter (Tas. : 1816-1821) Saturday 12 June 1819
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Hi Gina,
There are a few of us who are trying to figure out who Duncan and Janet's family really are. If you know anything about this, or have any ideas we would appreciate hearing from you.
I will send you my email, through the personal message.
Janice
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I wonder if there are any male descendants of Duncan MacKellar, son of Neil MacKellar (who came to New South Wales in 1792, and died returning to U.K. in 1802) in Australia who have had their Y-DNA run.
I seem to be descended from another Duncan MacKellar( b about 1772 Glassary Scotland d Napoleonic wars before 1816) who was the younger brother of Neil MacKellar. I have had my Y-DNA run by Family Tree DNA, and a comparison would help me authenticate my conventional genealogy.
AussieBirder
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Hi aussiebirder I have sent you a private message