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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Reiver on Saturday 03 May 08 18:00 BST (UK)
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May I ask for some advice and, if appropriate, a look-up please?
Dr Caird - I do not know his first name - was born up to 12 years either side of his sister who was born in 1765. Is there a medical directory(ies) or lists of graduates which may give his name, please? I believe he would have graduated in Scotland. Presumably I'm looking for graduation between 1773 and 1797.
Is anything available on the net?
I live in Cheshire
Regards
Reiver
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Hi Reiver !
Was he a doctor doctor ... or a doctor of something else ? ( did you "get" that ... it's the Scouse !! ::) ) I found this and don't know if it would be appropriate !!
Royal College of Surgeons Edinburgh
Historical enquiries -
For information about Fellows, Honorary Fellows, Members, Licentiates of earlier years, from the early 1500s onwards, please contact the College Library on library[at]rcsed.ac.uk, ( replace [at] with @ ) as records, in certain cases extensive, are retained here and information, in compliance with Data Protection, can be made available on request.
Annie :)
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Hi Annie
You pop up everywhere :) :) :) :) You're a gem. Many thanks. I will certainly try that.
If by doctor doctor you mean a doctor surgeon - yes that's what I mean - in broad Cheshire :) :) :)
Best wishes
Reiver
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Hi Reiver, if your Dr. Caird was a surgeon, would he not have been a Mr.Caird? just to cloud the issue a little. I suspect however that the title "surgeon" may have been used fairly freely back then, compared to its strict usage today.
Guid hunting,
Thrall
P.S. Sorry about the link to Amazon re. "strict usage today", it popped up and I couldn“t delete it!
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Hi Reiver ! how are you ?
Have you been able to find anything yet on your Dr Caird ? .... do we still need to keep looking ?
Annie :)
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Hello Annie
How nice of you to come back on this. I have a confession . . . I have not yet followed up on your suggestion to contact the RCS. Sorry.
Partly because I did not feel I knew enough to isolate him. He was a Doctor and apparently sailed as a Surgeon on a sailing ship - which is not a lot to go on.
I have an undated letter which was written between 1893 and 1908. The writer died in 1908 and the recipient, who was married, married in 1893. The writer gives a lot of information about his greatgrandparents, grandparenhs from Dumfriesshire which have been borne out by investigation and further family documents.
In part he writes:- A brother of my grandmother was Dr. Caird. He went on a sailing ship as Surgeon for the voyage.
Enough :) :)
I must contact the RCS
Regards
Reiver
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Hi Reiver,
I searched the wills on Scotland People website, this is a free search, and I found a John Caird, Fellow Royal College of Surgeons, husband of Charlotte Avarane, died 29 Oct 1861 or 62, 3 pages of the will lodged Edinburgh Sheriff Court.
Tom
ps They were married in Onchan Isle of Mann in 03 Dec 1803, an extracted record on IGI
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I wonder if this is him Tom and Reiver ?? ::)
The Medical Times and Gazette October 19th 1861 ( ? ) - Medicine
Deaths
Caird ... at 27 Montagu Street Edinburgh John Caird FRCS Eng
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03i4/
Annie :)
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Thank you both very much indeed. Absolutely superb.
Now I'll tell you a little more about Dr. Caird.
Some 30 or 40 years ago before I really started on this Family History thing, my father gave me some papers he had acquired. He was then in his 60s. In 1917 when he was 14 he had been with his uncle who had been 'doing' family history. The Uncle was R. B. Burnet of Burnley / Blackburn - some Lancashire Rootschatters may find this familiar :)
Uncle Ronald had passed on to my father - and he to me - a copy of a letter from which I quoted a couple of postings ago - about Dr. Caird going on a sailing voyage.
It continues . . . .
. . He landed on a large island in the Indian Ocean. The King was almost dying from some severe illness. He attended to the King and restored him to health. He had an only daughter so he married the King's daughter - so he abdicated, and he Dr. Caird became King. Only one daughter was the result of the marriage. and when both father and mother died, the daughter inherited all.
I must obtain a copy of John Caird's will and see his death certificate.
Thank you both Tom and Annie once again
'Prince?' Reiver :) :) :)
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Hi Reiver
What a fascinating exotic story. Do you feel that there is an element of truth in it? From my own experience, and that of others I have helped, I have found that in the family/ story/myth/legend somewhere is an element of fact. The challenge of course is to find that 'fact'.
Good luck please post your results ;D ;D ;D
Joyful
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Hi "Prince" Reiver,
What a great story, with his wife's name, Charlotte Avarane, it would be interesting to see wedding certificate. In the IOM, do they take note of parent's etc, may give some details of Indian Ocean parentage.
A good find, Annie, did you get the medical link, as a result of a google etc? What a great book that is.
Tom
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Oh my goodness Reiver !!
I'd better practice my curtsey !! :D :D :D :D
Now how on earth are we going to find out about that ? Visions of Mutiny on the Bounty come into my head ..... and all the girls in grass skirts !! :o :o :o :o
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Google is my friend Tom !! :D :D :D :D :D :D
Amazing what you find Googling !! ;)
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Hi Reiver & Annie,
Did some more searching of newspapers, John Caird was admitted to FRCS Edinburgh 1st October 1811, and promoted to FRCS Examiner, 14 September 1822.
On 1861 census, John Caird is a widower staying at 27 Montague Street, Newington, Edinburgh. His wife, Charlotte Averne (according to death certificate) died 29th March 1860 at home, of Old Age she was 70 plus, and was the daughter of John Averne Minister (Deceased) and Charlotte Averne nee Flemington or Remington (deceased) Unfortunately does not give country of their residence, she is buried in Grange cemetry.
John Caird according to 1861 census was born in Kirkconner, Wigtonshire.
Tom
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Hi Reiver and all,
I have found an extracted record on IGI that a John Caird was christened 05 Sep 1781 at Kirkinner, Wigtonshire to parents Gavin Caird and Agnes MacLachlan. However I could find no siblings. Do we have the correct John Caird?
Tom
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Hi Tom!
Looks like you've been working hard ! ..... you asked if this is the correct John Caird ... we didn't even know his name was John ... till you found him!! :) but I think you've come up with a very good possibility !! .....
I've been searching the IOM .... but I can't find anything yet .... With Charlottes father being a minister ... I was hoping maybe he had a congregation there and that's why she was there .... :-\ but nothing so far !!
I found some parish records for Onchan but they only go up to 1799/1800 - just missed it by 3 years !! ::) but I'll keep looking !
Annie :)
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Good morning all :)
I too have been digging further over the last 24 hours. But firstly thank you for your efforts as well.
is all this Royalty stuff nonsense?? :) Probably, but . . . Ever since my father gave me the (copy) letter 30+ years ago I've wondered too. However in the first part of the letter the writer gives details about his grandparents and relatives in Dumfriesshire - Caird, Rae, Burnet et al - no dates - but all can and have been proved. The fact that he is talking about a 'close?' relation - "my grandmother's brother" suggests that there ought to be 'something' in it :) :) :)
Since I last posted I have looked at John Caird's Will, his Death Certificate and earlier censuses - 1861 and 1851 anyway.
john Caird died on 9th October 1861 at Montague St. Edinburgh. He had written his Will in 1838 and the date in the 'register' is 29th October 1861 which I assume is the date of Probate. His Death Certificate gives his parent's names as Gavin Caird and Mary McLaughlan - and as Tidy pointed out - the IGI has an extracted baptism for a John Caird at Kirkinner, Wigtownshire for 5th September 1781. I did find other children baptsed to Gavin and Mary named Vilot (sic), Jean, Ann, Robert and James. The eldest was baptised 1767 and the youngest, John, in 1787.
His Death Certificate gives his wife's name as Charlotte Averne (deceased). Her name is in the Will. However in both the 1861 Census - the April a dew months before he died - and in 1851 his wifes name is given as Elizabeth - from A*****y so far.
Info about Charlotte is just coming through as I write. Thank you.
Knowing now more detail about John Caird Surgeon I will now pick up on Annie's origiinal suggestion and contact the library of the Royal College of Surgeons.
Now for the disconcerting news - -
The letter refers to John caird being the brother of Sarah Caird. He burial place/memorial is known giving a birth year of 1765. I think I have her baptism record - father is John caird and mother Janet Cuthbert in Dumfries. Her siblings can also be seen - but all within years of 1765 - not the period around 1787 when Dr. John was born.
If this is the correct Dr. John than it would appear that he was not a brother of Sarah - the writer's grandmother - but a cousin.
More to go. I'll add another extract from the letter in due course ;D ;D
Regards
Reiver
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Hi Reiver,
Thanks for the update that helps greatly. Are we looking at his wife Charlotte who died 1860, having other name, Elizabeth Charlotte Averne or Charlotte Elizabeth Averne. It sounds French to me, but Maybe her mother was French.
I notice the death of Charlotte Averne was registered by a servant Euphemia Mathison. She maybe did not know of her mistress's origin. I think the only place we may get a clue is in the marriage certificate from IOM.
Tom
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Thanks Tom.
I'll have a look at the Census Images on SP and see if they adds anything and also find the DC for Charlotte. How did you find that she had died in 1860?
Reiver
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Hi Reiver,
I found John was a widower in 1861 census, so looked for death certificate on SP, and only 1 result was returned, I downloaded certificate and have an electronic copy.I will try and send you a copy. I am working on son's laptop, my pc away for repair.
Tom
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Well Reiver !
I've been all over the IOM ... and can't seem to find anything ! :-\
I tried CHARLOTTE AVARANE ( IGI ) AVERNE and even AHERNE ( just in case !! )
Don't know if this maybe a relation but I found a Caird a Surgeon who's wife was born in Malta ...... Malta being a prominent Navy base through the years !!
Harriet Caird, born in Malta about 1833. The wife of T. Wilson Caird. In 1881 living with her husband in Exeter, Devon. He was Surgeon at Devon & Exeter Hospital and HM Prison
http://website.lineone.net/~aldosliema/rc.htm
And this one in IOM .... maybe a relation ??
Various Officials.
Surgeon to the Household and Prison, &c.-Dr. H. Caird (£120).
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/exans/txt_1918.htm
Annie :)
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Hi Reiver,
Have you seen this? There's an 1826 document in the National Archives at Kew .....with a surgeons certificate signed by John Caird... in Edinburgh.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-5124906&j=1
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Thanks all three of you for your input to this.
I had intended to provide an update but things have not panned out today. I'll do it tomorrow.
Regards
Reiver
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Did John Caird marry a Princess? Still looking :) :) :)
Biography
John Caird, an Edinburgh surgeon, died in i861 aged 74.
Age is consistent through 1851 and 1861 but in 1841 is aged 58.
Calculated birth year based on 1841 is 1782/83 (born in Kirkinner WIG)
Possible? - IGI extract for a baptism at Kirkinner on 5th September 1781 to same parents given on death certificate.
Married Charlotte Averne in Isle of Man in 1803
(I think it was Annie who first reported this - IOM. My first thought was Isle of Madascar :) :) :) :) :) Thst's in the Indian Ocean, isn't it. Ah well :'( )
So he was married (1803) at the age of 21 say.
Admitted as FRCS Edinburgh - per Tidy 1811
Promoted to FRCS Examiner - per Tidy 1822 (Must be good)
Signed a Surgeon Certificate in Edinhurgh 1826 - per Shaun.
In 1826 he would be 45.
What about Charlotte?
She was with John in Edinhutgh - he a Surgeon - aged 57. Not born in Scotland but a E in the last colums. Would that cover Isle of Man in the enumerator's instructions. She died in 1860 at 27, Montague Street and was buried in Grange Cemetery. I assume that is/was in Edinburgh. Are there transcriptions available?
I have no idea whether John and Charlotte had any children. I wondered whether a memorial inscription or an obituary for either of them may provide information.
Where is the best place to look, please?
Now an oddity.
Charlotte died in 1860 at 27, Montague Street. On the DC John Caird, surgeon, is her husband. However both in the 1851 Census and the 1861 Census Charlotte is not there with John and an Elizabeth is shown as John's wife ???
Annie, after all this time, I have emailed the Royal College of Surgeons seeking information on John Caird. Obviously I'll post the result.
Regards and many thanks
Reiver
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I did say I would post more from the letter :)
We 'know' Dr. Caird became King. :)
It goes on:-
*****
Only one daughter was the result of the marriage, and when both father and mother died, the daughter inherited all. She corresponded regularly with Charles Caird her cousin. She never married, but when Charles Caird (my mother's cousin) died leaving no children , his wefe carried off all the letters which he had saved from the Princess so all trace or proof was lost with the letters.
No one knew the name of the island but Charles Caird. He was next of kin; his cousin next to him. The Island is now and has long been English territory.
*****
Just to repeat, the letter was written between 1893 and 1908.
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Regards
Reiver
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Hi Reiver
If charlotte died in 1860 then she wouldn't be on the 1861 census. I was thinking that Elizabeth might have been a second wife.......ignore that .....you said that the 'Elizabeth' was with John in 1851 as well. Did Charlotte have another forename, people in those days did use forenames interchangeably. ;D
Joy :)
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Hello Joy
It would solve the problem wouldn't it. John Caird, in his will of 1838, refers to her as Mrs Charlotte Avarne Caird. Three years later she is also Charlotte. But in 1851 and 1861 Elizabeth. Elizabeth was born in London and in 1851 was 66 - consistent with Charlotte's age in 1841.
So could be
Regards
Reiver
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Elizabeth was born in London
I have been wondering about this one:
CHARLOTTE AVARNE
Christening: 15 SEP 1778 Saint Andrew, Holborn, London, England
Father: WILLIAM AVARNE
Mother: CHARLOTTE
There was a Mrs William Avarne (1749-1826) who was an artist. http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotCode=zRkksDSh
She was born Charlotte Hemington and was married to the Reverend William Avarne ... I think he was tutor to the Countess of Huntingdon's children... she had an estate on the Isle of Man. All this from snippets on Google Books ... haven't found the full story yet!
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Someone to get in touch with?
http://genforum.genealogy.com/avarne/messages/2.html
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the daughter of John Averne Minister ... and Charlotte Averne nee Flemington or Remington
Or Hemington perhaps?
Here's another potential contact re the family of Charlotte Avarne, nee Hemington:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:a25240&id=I115
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Just read your messages Shaun.
Thought I'd thank you straight away and then study them and work on them :) :)
Ir would appear that Joy was right. It would appear that she went by two names.
Thanks again Joy :)
Reiver
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Just thought I'd report in :)
I finally took Annie's advice - and link - and contacted the Royal College of Surgeons in London. Apparently he did not belong to them. They seemed certain he belonged to Edinburgh and gave me a link to them.
He was one of theirs but all they had on him was when he 'joined' which they gave me but was the same as Shaun had given earlier - date in 1811, and when he died which I already had from the DC. No clues there then. :(
I've been given a link by Frances on the Isle of Man board which I have not yet picked up. Seems my brick wall is still standing :) :) :)
Regards
Reiver
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Just thought I'd report in :)
I finally took Annie's advice - and link - and contacted the Royal College of Surgeons in London. Apparently he did not belong to them. They seemed certain he belonged to Edinburgh and gave me a link to them.
He was one of theirs but all they had on him was when he 'joined' which they gave me but was the same as Shaun had given earlier - date in 1811, and when he died which I already had from the DC. No clues there then. :(
I've been given a link by Frances on the Isle of Man board which I have not yet picked up. Seems my brick wall is still standing :) :) :)
Regards
Reiver
That's a shame Reiver ... I was hoping RCS would be able to help you !! ... ah well onward and upward as they say ..... :) :)
What did Frances give you ??
Annie :)
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Hi Reiver,
Just been checking previous posts, and would like to point out Elizabeth was not in the 1861 census. John Caird was a widower and he had 2 servants. I checked 19th Century British Newspapers for obituary and all I got was notice of death giving 27 Montague Street, and nothing else really.
Tom
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Thanks Tom
You are quite right.
Wife Elizabeth was only there in 1851 - born in London. In what I've seen so far including his Will there is no sign of an Elizabeth - only Charlotte.
Frances gave me a a link to an Isle of Man board and a link to the Manx Museum who apparently have a card index for that period.
I've now used both links and will let you know what transpires.
Regards
Reiver
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Any news yet Reiver ?? :)
Not that I'm nosy or anything !! ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Funny you should ask :) :) :) :) :) Not nosy - just interested :) :)
My request of the Manx Museum for a look up on their index - at Frances's suggestion- turned up a reference in the Manx Advertiser to their wedding in 1803 and the fact that the 'house' he was living at must have been vacated the following year because the lease had been given up.
I think the brick wall must remain. I am in contact with someone from Australia who may well have John as part of his family - but initial contact shows no knowledge of the Royalty story :) :) :)
If I am the King . . . . I'll see what I can do. :) :)
Regards
Reiver
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Hello. Have any of you come across a Thomas Caird, said to be from Montrose and born about 1756?
Thomas Caird was a surgeon in the Royal Navy and served on board the Temeraire at Trafalgar.
He married Elizabeth in Devon, had some children, then died in 1822.
I can not find his birth anywhere, but there are some Caird's in Montrose, at the right time. Could he be using a second name? He would not be the first to alter his name.