RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cambridgeshire => Topic started by: Mrs Aussie Karrob on Tuesday 06 May 08 08:47 BST (UK)
-
Can someone decipher the place name on the scanned image. Its from a birth certificate and the place is the name of fathers birth place. Our family thinks he came from Wisbech Cambridge, but this is not what is shown. The name ends with bridge, so can not be Wisbech. Any suggestions??
mrs aussie karrob
-
What year is the cert from and have you found the individual concerned in any census.
-
There is a "Willsbridge" in Gloucester, but this looks more like "Wiltsbridge".
n
-
Is there a street or hospital name on the cert?
What district does it say at the top of the cert?
Carol
-
There is also a Witheridge in Devon, but if you are sure its Cambridgeshire............
-
This an Australian Certificate written out in 1863 for the birth of the daughter naming his birthplace in England.
I cant find any info through Ancestry's English census's for her parents.
mrs aussie karrob
-
If you post some names, then we can see what we can turn up. ;D
-
The people I am looking for are:
William MOTT b 1839 Wisbech? married in Australia to Frances DENMAN 1861 b 1840 Goodrich Hereford.
William's parents are: Thomas MOTT and Mary SMITH.
Frances's parents are: John Denman and Harriet GIBBS both born in Curry Rival abt 1806.
This is all the English info I have and am not so sure about it.
Karon ???
-
Wouldn't it be possible that whoever wrote the place name has misheard it? Wisbech is an unusual sounding name, and the registrar might have turned it into a word with a more common place name ending - ie 'bridge'.
-
That's true Galium,imagine an Aussie registrar hearing a broad Cambs accent saying the word Wisbech 8)
It lookes like he wrote Wiltbridge instead.
Carol
-
Do you have any other info on William Mott, such as when he emigrated to Australia. Can't find anything definite on the census and can't find a Mott/Smith marriage.
-
All I have is the Australian marriage of William & Frances in 1861. They didnt write much on them back then.
Karon
-
possible birth
JAn/Feb/Mar 1841
William Mott
Wisbech reg district
ref 14 187
-
Here is that one on 1841 census
1841
Susan Green Upwell
William Mott 55 Ag lab
Elizabeth Mott 60
Mary 25
john 15
William 15
William 3 months
-
For some reason Ancestry in many cases has things indexed as Town Name, Cambridgeshire Norfolk. I remember the discussion about it quite a while ago as in many cases IGI did the same thing. With this in mind, and after many fruitless searches I didn't put anything but England in and came up with:
William Mott 1839 Jul. Aug. Sept. Wisbech Cambridgeshire, Norfolk vol. 14 page: 94
The only children on the 1841 England with the parents of Thomas and Mary Mott are:
Thomas Mott age 25
Mary Mott age 25
Owen Mott age 3
Charles Mott age 2
Living in Mepal/Witchford Cambridgeshire
Is there any chance he went by the name of Charles at one time? The age would be right.
dollylee
-
Wisbech is on the border of Cambridgeshire and Norfolk.
JAP
-
Or maybe not lol
by 1851 the above Thomas and Mary now have a William 5 years old born Littleport, Cambridgeshire and suddenly Owen is 2 year younger than Charles. Other children Sarah and Eliza (just in case those names are familiar).
Probably not a fit.....are you more sure of his birthdate and place or his parents names??
dollylee
thanks JAP... this is the area I often look in so no wonder I see that so often.
-
The only thing I am sure about is William & Frances's australian marriage and the info on their childrens birth certificates.
karon :o.
PS i also have the William died in 1917at Cambridge (I dont know where that came from) but he definately married in australia
-
That death of William (place not specified) seems to have come from an LDS submission in the IGI. It gives William as born in 1839 in Wisbech (no specific date), parents as Thomas MOTT & Mary SMITH, and death date (place not mentioned) as 3 May 1917. Whether the birth and parentage details had/have any basis of fact is quite another matter ...
Incidentally, FreeBMD has births for Owen MOTT, Jun qtr 1838 and Charles MOTT, Dec qtr 1839 - both in Ely.
There's a Pedigree Resource File for William MOTT and Frances DENMAN - it lists Frances's birth details but none for William. The submitter's contact details are listed on FamilySearch.
JAP
PS: You haven't indicated which state the marriage of William MOTT & Frances DENMAN took place in nor when or where William died. Did these events happen in a state where birthplaces, ages and parents' names are included on the certificates?
-
Australian, New South Wales Birth Death & Marriages certificates is where I have the info from. Yes they do state where they come from, hence this post with the attachment. Its hard to find people when you dont know where they orginate from.
William and Frances were born in UK, they married in Australia (NSW) then there is info that William died back in UK.
I cant find Frances death anywhere (here in Oz or in UK.)
Karon
-
So, does the 1861 marriage certificate state the age of William MOTT and does it list his parents - if so what are those details please. And does it indicate when he came to Australia (or do you have information from passenger lists)?
Regards,
JAP
PS: Sorry to keep questioning but I'm puzzled - where is the "info that William died back in UK" ??? The LDS submission which I referred to mentions a date but not a place.
-
Hi
I think you will find that the Owen and Charles Mott reg at Ely, are the ones living at Littleport, Ely Cambs on the 1851 census.
H0107/ 1764
folio 774
page 7
Another thing in this area, a lot of places have names for Bridges so he could be born at or near one of them. Have seen on a few census where people have been born at Hubberts bridge, which is just a bridge over a small river with a few houses around it
ricky
-
On the birth certificate for daughter of William & Frances it states:
Father: William Mott, Mariner, age 24 (in 1863), birthplace Wiltsbridge??
Place of marriage: 1861 Sydney
Mother: Frances Denman age 23, birthplace Herefordshire England
I cannot find any birth or death for William in Sydney.
Karon
-
Can you post EVERYTHING that the marriage cert says, please.
-
If you don't have the marriage cert, that would be the next step. However, assuming that the Pedigree Resource submitter isn't you ( ;D ), it might first be worthwhile contacting her.
JAP
-
This is the only marriage I can find on Boyds marriage index.
1829 / MORTON MARY / SMITH JN / MARCH / CAMBRIDGESHIRE
but he could have died
1833 SMITH John c35 Windsor ----- Manea
and there is the following marriage
1837 / MURTON MARY /MOTT THO / MEPAL / CAMBRIDGESHIRE
All a big longshot and the parish registers would need checking.
:-\
No disregard that, I am getting me Smiths and Murtons muddled up.
:'( :'(
-
Here's a thought from left field ...
The last known child of William MOTT & Frances DENMAN was born in 1865 (hope that's right).
Perhaps William died (might be anywhere if he was a mariner) and Frances re-married.
There's an 1868 NSW marriage for a Frances MOTT to a John James BULLOCK in Sydney.
And the death of a Frances BULLOCK, father John, 1921, St Leonards (the MOTT children were all registered in St Leonards).
Just a thought ...
But the 1861 marriage certificate seems to be essential.
JAP
-
funny...i just had the same thought and did the same lookups for Frances remarried. Yes we all come from St Leonards. I have the marriage certificate on order but it takes 6-8 weeks for Australian certificates to be delivered in Australia, but it only takes 3 weeks for English certificates to arrive in Australia. how weird is that?
Is there a Northbridge in England somewhere?
Karon
-
Re Frances Denman.
The IGI has three christenings of children born to John and Harriett Denman at Goodrich, Herefordshire.
JOHN DENMAN
Christening: 15 MAY 1831 Goodrich, Hereford
FRANCES DENMAN
Christening: 19 APR 1840 Goodrich, Hereford
HARRIETT DENMAN
Christening: 22 MAY 1842 Goodrich, Hereford
FreeBMD shows births registered of Frances Denman (Jun Q 1840) and Hariot Denman (Jun Q 1842) in Ross district (which includes Goodrich). There are no other Denman births shown in Herefordshire until the 1870s.
1841 census
Goodrich, Herefordshire
John Denman 35 Mason [looks like] not born in county
John Denman 10 born in county
Harriett Denman 35 not born in county
Ann Denman 12 not born in county
George Denman 6 born in county
Mary Denman 4 born in county
Frances Denman 1 born in county
Class: HO107/ Piece 431/ Book: 4
[Ancestry have transcribed them as 'Demmer']
-
Hello again Karon,
The only thing to do now seems to be to wait patiently for the 1861 marriage certificate of William MOTT & Frances DENMAN.
And if it doesn't give William's birthplace and parents, I guess the next step would be to get the birth certs of the other children (Mary 1862 and William J 1865).
And then the marriage cert of Frances MOTT & John James BULLOCK (assuming it is the same Frances) might say when her first husband died.
JAP
-
Thanks again everyone. Yes I guess I will have to wait for the marriage cert.
Gallium,
Thanks for the birth dates, I didnt have the actual dates before only year.
I had info for 1861 census.
Karon
-
Probably way too late for my two cents worth...but a visual on the image query my first thought was an "M" beginning, but a closer look seems to be "Nithbridge"
Sorry if that is too off base...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OOps, just looked and there's a Nithbridge (Dumfries) and a Nethbridge, (Inverness)
so I guess I WAS on a whole different ballfield...
-
HI
Just another note on this ^%$&*!! certificate.. a friend from Sydney found this query on here and rang me. He asked what was the info on the mother written on the certificate. I told him that it had on it Herefordshire England, he then asked what info was on the father, I told him that this image was all that was on it. Friend then said,,,, well he was probably born in Australia, because it doesnt have England under his name, when it does have it under the mothers name. so now I am looking for a place in Australia called this place....whatever it is. Family have always said that he was English.. so where do I go from here??????????????????
Karon
-
.. so where do I go from here??????????????????
Nowhere, I guess ;D
Just wait patiently >:( for the arrival of the marriage certificate.
And if it doesn't provide the answer then further lines of enquiry remain - the birth certificates of the other two children, and possibly the certificate of Frances's second marriage.
JAP
-
It looks like 'WITHBRIDGE' to me. :)
For what it's worth I'm inclined to think this is a mis-interpretation of the name Wisbech which could have come about for any number of reasons. On the internet today I came across just such a case. The postcode is a good indicator.
7 THE BRINK
WITHBRIDGE
CAMBRIDGESHIRE
PE13 1JU
WhiskyMac
-
Mmmm WhiskyMac you may have a point there.
Any sign of that cert yet Mrs Aussie Carob?
So we can all be put out of our misery ;D ;D ;D
Carol
-
Hi
The Brink is in Wisbech, we have a North Brink and a South Brink,
ricky
-
I am still waiting on the marriage certificate.
I have now ordered the childrens birth certificates as well......oh how slow is the Australian Govt depts !!!!!!!!!
Karon
-
Today at 3.15pm I received the birth certificates for the children of William Mott and Frances Denman.
One states fathers birthplace as "Westbridge England", the other states "Cambridgeshire England".
These certificates also clear up when the father died. The father died 24th Apr 1865 and his son was born 25 May 1865 in Australia....YEAH..I'm getting somewhere now !!
All this brings into line the info I had but couldnt place.
Thankyou everyone who has had a go at deciphering this monstrousity..
Karon
-
HI Karon
Trouble is there isn't such a place as Westbridge,so I think we're bacak to Wisbech,said with a local accent to an Australian ;D he must have thought that's what was being said.
Isn't that sad,the baby being born a month after his father died :(
Glad we're getting to the bottom of it now.
Carol
-
Hi
I live in Wisbech, and I dont think its Wisbech, even with the accent that they have round here ;)
ricky
-
I have attached the section of William and Frances's son William Johns birth certificate that shows fathers birthplace. It also shows mothers birthplace.
Also the name of the church where the parents where married.
Take a look and see what you come up with.
Karon
-
This 1881 census piece states a Westbridge Cambridge birth as well :-\ ??
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03m6/
-
I wonder if the Westbridge entry actually refers to a bridge.
Most of my family are from the Haddenham /Aldreth area and I've come across references to people being born at Aldreth High Bridge. My father who still lives in the area will sometimes refer to somebody living "down the fen by the third bridge" etc.
-
This 1881 census piece states a Westbridge Cambridge birth as well :-\ ??
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03m6/
Well spotted JJ- there are quite a few in other censuses also born in Westbridge Cambridge ::)
Have tried to follow a few of them through the censuses but not had any more luck I'm afraid. I still think it might be Wisbech,but said with a local accent to someone not familiar with the spelling.
I may be wrong of course ::)
Carol
-
I am sorry everyone but I am confused. ???
The last image I posted is of a birth certificate.
I dont know what you are referring to when you say "This 1881 census piece".
I listed it to show the name of the father's birthplace and to try to decipher the name of the church where the parents where married.
Hope this clears it up a bit. :)
Karon
-
Reply 42...sometimes there are several replies and one might be missed...But I did use the word piece incorrectly, when referring to a census ;D
Was just pointing out that someone else listed they were from there as well, and so might have been a name of a small area at that time which isn't used anymore, or perhaps it no longer exists as such...
-
Hi Karon,
can't help with the Cambridge address but the name of the church looks like "Scotch Church, Sydney" to me. Would that perhaps have been a Scottish Presbyterian Church?
-
Just a thought but could someone have said "West Cambridge" and it got written down wrong. The other entry gives only county and England so is that usual there for reporting a place of birth in England?
The only county of the time I can think of that begins with West would be West Riding (Yorkshire) but that's unlikely if the place of birth is recorded as Cambridge, elsewhere.
-
I have finally received the marriage certificate for William Mott and Frances Denman. IT says birthplace for William "Wisbeach Cambridgeshire and for Frances "Goodrich Herefordshire. Williams parents are listed as deceased as at the marriage date of 2/12/1861. Frances parents were still alive and her father was the witness. They were married at St Andrews Scots Church in Sydney.
I think this clears up most of my questions
Thanks everyone
Karon
-
So pleased it's finally arrived and has cleared up your mystery.
In which case he looks like this chap in a submitted entry on the IGI.
WILLIAM MOTT Born 1839 Wisbech, Cambridge, England
Parents: THOMAS MOTT and MARY SMITH
Died: 03 MAY 1917
Hope that helps?
Carol
-
Hi Carol
I agree with the IGI entry except for his death date. He died in 1865 when his wife was 8 months pregnant.
I have his death certificate and the birth certificate of the child that states when the father died.
Karon
-
Having agreed with the IGI entry isn't all that helpful ;D ;D ;D
There doesn't seem to be a William Mott age 2 living anywhere near Wisbech with a dad called Thomas...in 1841
::) ::) ::)
-
Hi Karon,
Just for interests sake, I use Laurie Turtle http://home.iprimus.com.au/lturtle/ for NSW Transcriptions and other research State Archives etc. For a rate of around $15 he transcribes the certificates, rather than having to purchase them. If you are unsure if you have the correct person you can request a look for $8, with upgrade if it is. Laurie is extremely prompt (1 to 2 weeks) and he can e-mail you the results.
It's not the same as the early handwritten records, but a lot more cost/time effective. There are a few other Transcription Agents for NSW.
Jo