RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: nlyon on Tuesday 06 May 08 21:43 BST (UK)
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John White had 4 sons, 3 daughters, youngest son James Robert White was father of General George Stuart White, I am looking for the other sons, hopefully a William White born 1805 there in Broughshane.Rebecca White( one of the daughters) b 1806 m John Stockman in Ireland.. emigrated to US in 1831. The Whites were members of the Presbyterian Church,I assume of Broughshane. Can anyone tell me the other children? Or lead me to a source to find out about the White family of this area? Thanks.. Barbara in Tennessee.
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If you use the Search Rootschat button at top of page and enter White Broughshane you will find others doing research on the name.
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Unfortunately both Broughshane 1st and 2nd Presbyterian Church records don't go back far enough for the information you are looking for.
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well shoot :),,thanks for the info!!
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If you do the search suggested in my earlier post, though, you will find some posts with a bit more info and links about the White's of Broughshane, so at least you should be able to gleen some interesting info.
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There's a White family plot on the grounds of the First Presbyterian Church
in the centre of Broughshane.
First Broughshane Presbyterian Church, 1655-1936 was published in Belfast
in 1936 by the Newton Publishing Company.
Knowhead, Broughshane 1842
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,50371.msg725540.html#msg725540
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So how do I get a lookup in this plot.. or find the book published for sale???
Thanks for any information
Barbara
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If the book was published in 1936 it's probably long out of print,
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If the book was published in 1936 it's probably long out of print,
That's a good observation however there's no need for Barbara to worry about searching for an antiquarian book shop that might have a copy. The Central Library, Belfast Ulster & Irish Studies section, in Royal Avenue, Belfast has a copy. It's not for loan ... it's a Reference non-borrowable copy.
Send a the query to the Central Library and ask if they could assist by checking the book to see if it has anything about the White family.
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Hi Barbara,
I too am trying to research a member of the White family. My great-grandfather, Charles White, was born in Ireland in 1832. He joined the British Army (I don't know the regiment) and fought in India and Aden. He retired to South Africa where he volunteered for the Natal Mounted Police, and went to help the British Army up country. He was killed at the Battle of Isandlwhana in 1879.
The family story is that he was related (cousin?) to Sir George Stuart White of Broughshane, Co Antrim (b.1835) who originally joined the Inniskillins and also fought in India. Charles was apparently 'cut off' from his family (which is why it is doubly difficult to trace anything about him). However, there may be a record of Charles White's birth in the First Presbyterian Church in Broughshane but I have not been able to check.
You will find some more info on him on my website, www.alittlebluejacket.com also available through my blog, lucyannwrites.blogspot.com
I do hope that you might be able to give me some help but am afraid all I can help you with in your quest at this moment is to give you this information about Charles White.
All the best, Elizabeth
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Hi
There is this birth, there is no guarantee it is your record and it is in there twice it could be the same record repeated I have come across this before.
Not all records are on this site and there could be another Charles White born the same year
WHITE CHARLES 1832 Father is GEORGE Co. Down
http://www.ancestryireland.com/index.php?ai_home
Helena
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Hi Elizabeth and Barbara
Have you tried PRONI Will index
If you key in White as a surname then use registery Befast, full abstract Broughshane or Down if you think that could be yours Elizabeth. Make sure you tick the check box and it will give you all the people who left wills with the name White mentioned in that area.
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/will_calendars/wills_search.htm
Helena
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Helena, you are brilliant!
I looked up the PRONI Will index and this George looks a likely.
I don't know how I find out if his family is mentioned in the will but intend to try. Of course, if he is my Charles White's father, and if he did disinherit his son he is unlikely to have mentioned him in his will! Anyway, its given me an impetus to keep going.
I should like to find out if George/Charles were related to Gen Sir George Stuart White becuse it would make information gathering more simple. It's interesting to note that Charles had several sons: among them a Charles Frederick, John, James, Edward and George James!
Thanks again for your help. Elizabeth
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Hi ElizabethAL
What was the date of probate for the George White you found in the Wills database?
If its between 1858 and 1899 and a Will not letters of Administration you can view a copy of the Will at the Public Records Office Northern Ireland (PRONI). Its on microfilm ref MIC15C.
After 1900 you can view the original documents in the PRONI reading room.
John
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PRONI will also phsotocopy the will for you and post it. I have had this done. Send them an email with all the details and they will send you instruction on how to pay (but, be patient, it takes a while for them to reply!!)RosemaryJoan
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Thank you to RosemaryJoan and John, for your invaluable advice. Sorry I'm not replying individually but I'm not au fait with this site yet.
I think the will was 'granted' in 1876 so I may be able to get a copy: I shall certainly email them to find out.
Regards, Elizabeth
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Hello Nylon,
I too am researching the White's of White Hall. If you search the RootsChat site you'll get the picture!
You mention that John White had four sons, one of whom was James Robert, the father of George Stuart White (born 1835) : I wonder if you have learned what the other sons were called? I am hoping one was named George.
The George White I am seeking details of, died in County Antrim in 1876. He may have been born anytime between (I guess) 1785 and 1812. His son, Charles, however, was born in County Down in 1832.
Regards, Elizabeth
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Elizabeth and Nylon
Go to history from headstones, then search then free inscriptions
http://www.ancestryireland.com/index.php
You may have to create a login
Enter search text again, it is a bit messy for the free inscriptions once you view what you want, then you have to go over to the free inscriptions on the left of your view and enter search text again. This is a pay to view site with some free inscriptions
Just in case you have not received my PM as you may not have enough post you will find a gravestone with George Stuart White amongst the free inscriptions.
There are also some other pay to view gravestones for White in the same graveyard beware you might pay for them and they may not be what you are looking for
Helena
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Hi Helen,
Thanks for your personal and public message. Good to know about GSWhite's gravestone: however, my grandfather, Charles White, was killed at the Battle of Isandlwana, South Africa, in 1879 and that is where his remains remain!
I'm not sure what I could deduce from other gravestones in the churchyard. What I need to find out is: was Charles (b.1832) a cousin of George Stuart White (b.1835)?
In other words, was George White (Charles' father) a brother to James White (George Stuart White's father) ? I'm relying on Barbara/Nylon here that James was son of John, father of George Stuart.
Admittedly, if George is buried in the same churchyard as George Stuart that might indicate an attachment to the area and possibly the church. If this is so it might be worth me trying to trace George's birth records starting with where both are buried.
Thank you for all your good advice and information.
Regards, Elizabeth
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Nylon & Elizabeth,
I'm the grandson of Captain Jack White, who's wife eventually had to sell White hall. From the scraps of a family tree I have and the biography of Sir George White - The life of Field-Marshal Sir George White (http://www.archive.org/details/lifeoffieldmarsh01durauoft) I can only make out 4 children of James White (1746-1804).
They were
JANE (1783-1826), VICTORIA (1784-1837), JOHN (The Ould Captain, 1785-1857), JAMES ROBT (The Counsellor and father of Sir George White, 1787-1872) .
Hope that helps,
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
Thank you for your reply which is a great help: and good to hear from a bone fide relation to The Whites of White Hall!
I am steadily coming to the conclusion that our family story of a connection to George Stuart (Stewart) White is a myth! However, should John have had a son named George then there could possibly be one.
If there is not a connection then it will spur me on to work harder finding out the correct family line.
My great-grandfather, Charles White, was killed at the Zulu Battle of Isandlwana in 1879. He volunteered as a member of the Natal Mounted Police so I will probably have to find their records to see if they have any details of his father: alternatively there should be his military records somewhere as he served in India and Aden.
Again, many thanks, Elizabeth
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Hi all, While researching information about the Braid Presbyterian Church I came across the following information.
The first was a biography of Jack White of Whitehall and in it, it says he was descended from Fulk White who came to Broughshane as a Presbyterian minister in 1687. I also found references to 3 books that have references to Fulk White and James White who I suspect was his son. If you do a Google search for Fulk White you should find these 4 references as well as other Fulk Whites in the 1500's.
cheers Gillie
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Thanks for all the information, I had to leave my genealogy for my daughter in law who turned up with cancer this fall..but two nasty operations and she is clear, but whew..getting back to my White's :-) you all had a lot of great info, will get on this now :-)
How is it going with the will... Elizabeth??And yes Gillie I did see that about Fulk White.. have some of those articles..
Thanks again everyone, will be back as soon as I do some work on this!
Barbara
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Hello Andrew & Others Interested in the Whites Of Broughshane
On and off for the past decade, I have been researching John White (1839-1912), younger brother of the Field Marshall, as the possible Father of my Grandfather John Joseph White (1863/4-1909). I have determined the major facts/events in John's life through census materials, correspondence with Balloil College Oxford, Lincoln's Inn Library (law school in London) and a very helpful Local Studies Librarian in Ballymena. In short, John White was an Oxford scholar, barrister (mainly "not practicing") and pursued a career as a senior civil servant in London working at the national Board of Education. My research supports a circumstantial case for the connection (matching many elements of our disjointed family legend) but certainly does not prove it. I believe the case now swings on finding out whether the John White of Broughshane is the John White who was reported as a Father in the Dublin Birth Registry of November 1864. The Mother, Mary Conner, who signed with "her mark" reported the birth at 25 Marlborough Street (often occupied by legal professionals according to Dublin directories) and stated that the Father, John White, was a Solicitor. This is precisely the time frame in which John White of Broughshane was in legal training (perhaps interning in the office of an established solictor) before being called to the bar (barrister) in 1866. I bring all this to your attention in the hope that you may have some idea where I might access family documents/correspondence that could shed light on whether John of Broughshane lived and/or understudied law in Dublin between 1862 and 1866. Do you know if any 19th century family papers are preserved anywhere by descendants or libraries? I am aware from reviewing Durand's biography of the Field Marshall that much material was turned over to him for writing the book. In fact, many letters between the General and John White are quoted in the book, but none are from the early period I seek nor address my questions. Any assistance or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Frank White
Colorado Springs
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I am looking for the dates and some basic biographical information about Georgina, youngest daughter of Sir George Stuart White (1835-1912). Does anyone know anything about her?
She would have been born about 1896. She does not seem to be buried in Broughshane.
Ever hopefully
Giles Hudson
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Andrew,
Would you be so kind as to contact me off line to discuss possible DNA testing. I am being tested and need to find a confirmed male descendant of the Whites of Whitehall Broughshane for results comparison.
Frank White
Colorado Springs
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
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I am looking for the dates and some basic biographical information about Georgina, youngest daughter of Sir George Stuart White (1835-1912). Does anyone know anything about her?
Not much, but at least a small mention of Georgina (it would seem she perhaps never married) at:
http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol072sd.html
and even briefer mention at:
http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/pri/boerwar.html
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andrew..
my husband ( a descendant of the White family) has already been tested DNA, would you like the markers? or can one see the other markers of confirmed White descendants? Thanks,
Barbara R
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Barbara,
I am seeking a confirmed direct male descendant of the White family of Broughshane for marker comparison when my test results are returned. I had hoped to contact Andrew in this regard, but as you can see from my posting above, I did not realize you cannot include personal email in a post or use the PM system until you have posted three times. I would be interested in comparing results with those of your husband if he is a direct male descendant.
Frank White
Colorado Springs
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Now that you've made 3 posts you should be able to get and send PMs -
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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well he is not a direct male descendant.. I guess that is the difference, his great great grandfather was a White born in Boughshane, but he descends through the daughter.. I had thought perhaps the markers might be enough to give a hint :-0
let me know if you would like to see the markers anyway, they are on family tree.
Barbara
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to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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Hello all! It seems we have some connections with family in the US. I am Eleanor White, first cousin of Andrew White and great grand daughter of Sir George Stuart White. My grandfather was Jack White, eldest son of Sir George. I met Georgina when I was a child and she was living in Hampton Court. I have information in an audio interview she did when she was 84 that she had a younger brother -she refers to him as "very bright" and remarks that he went to Oxford University. I therefore have no doubt that he is the youngest son of George Stuart White and sister to Georgina Mary.Please get in touch! Eleanor
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Hi Eleanor. Do you have any info about John White, Sir George's younger brother?? John, b. 1839, attended Oxford, studied law but did not practice despite 1866 call to Bar. He pursued career as senior civil servant in British education establishment, retiring in 1902 as an Asst. Secretary of Education Ministry. He returned to Broughshane to mange White estate until death in 1912. Much circumstantial evidence (see my 2009 post in this thread) indicates John may have fathered my Grandfather John J. White out of wedlock in Dublin, Oct 1864. It seems John lived at 25 Marlborough St then, very near Irish Education Ministry, perhaps starting his education career. My Grandfather was shipped to Canada as young boy, raised and educated there by unknown, and emigrated to US by himself in 1880 to get BA Degree and pursue career as teacher, eventually in Los Angeles until 1909 death. Hope to contact direct male descendant of Broughshane Whites to explore DNA connection.
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Hi. I am interested in this topic because I want to identify the father of my Presbyterian tritavus James STEWART (~1740-1829). He & his wife Rose sailed from Belfast on October 2, 1767 aboard the "Earl of Donegal" according to a list of passengers that was made after they landed in Charleston, South Carolina on December 22, 1767. The Council Journals of SC are the source of the following excerpt (I hope that you will be able to make sense of it despite its format).
Names (pages 313-318) Birth year | age Acres received (pages 319-324) Line
John White 1720 | 47 450 63
Ann White 1727 | 40 64
William White 1753 | 14 65
Margaret White 1756 | 11 66
Helen White 1758 | 9 67
Isabell White 1760 | 7 68
Jannet White 1762 | 5 69
Victoria White 1764 | 3 70
James Stewart (died 10/2/29 "aged 90") 1741 | 26 (150 to John Stewart) 71
Rose Stewart (died 5/31/1832) 1745 | 22 72
(100 to Elizabeth White) 73
Eleanor White 1717 | 50 100 74
I wonder if Eleanor WHITE was the mother or aunt of my ggggGmother Rose.
That the Stewarts & Whites are commingled in the above list may be evidence that what one of my deceased cousins told me is true, that our Stewart ancestors & the Whites were friends & neighbors before they left Ireland (both families have lived a few miles from each other in Chester county, SC ever since).
A genealogy book published by descendants of the aforesaid White family stated that their White ancestors may have come from Broughshane. I therefore visited the beautiful little old first Presbyterian church in Broughshane about 1968 & met the friendly pastor, who kindly allowed me to read the records of that church. What I read gave me the impression that the Whites were a very socially prominent family ( & therefore unrelated to me). I was disappointed that I read nothing about my known Stewart ancestors.
I remember that the name of a William Hamilton Stewart who was born about 1739 was inscribed on a large tombstone near the front door of the aforesaid church because a member of my own family who has exactly the same name was born exactly 200 years later.
I searched for many years & finally found a descendant of one of the authors of the aforesaid genealogy book who was willing to have his DNA tested. His results match those of a few other people with the surname White. For about ten years I have also been trying to find men who:
- Are willing to allow me to pay FTDNA to test their DNA.
- Have the surnames WHITE and STEWART.
- Live in Broughshane.
I am not a patrilineal descendant of King Robert II of Scotland. I thought that I might be because of what I read on a web site that used to be at www.freewebs.com/weirfamilyorigins/ : "Elizabeth White's father was James Robert White, 25/6/1787-9/1/1872. His parents were James White. 1757-1804, & Jane Stewart, 1761-1804, second cousins, who married 4/1/1782. James White was the son of John White, b. c. 1720, who was the son of James White, b. c. 1690, & Frances Stewart, b. c. 1690. James White was the son of Rev. Fulke White, 1662-24/8/1716. . . . That the White family of Whitehall, Broughshane, were of eminent lineage is shown by their close association with the Stewart family, who were of royal descent . . . . Colonel Hon. Robert Stewart was the son of Andrew Stewart , 3rd. Lord Stewart of Ochiltree, c. 1565-1628 . . . "
Three of FTDNA's royal Stewart projects are at:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Stuart/default.aspx
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Stewart-Bute
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-S781
By the way, R1b1a2a1a2c1i1a used to be the name of the haplogroup to which I belong. ISOGG renamed that haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a2c1i1a (also known as L744/S388, L745/S463, L746/S310).
--
THE BEST & CHEAPEST WAY FOR A FAMILY TO ACHIEVE ITS GENEALOGICAL GOALS
Big Y & other NGS tests are orders of magnitude more likely to help a family to achieve its genealogical goals ( & for far less money in the long run) than STR tests. E.g., a year or two ago I discovered via the results of my BIG Y test that I have a mutation (SNP) known as R-S781 ( & therefore belong to y-haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a2c1i1a1) that is inherited only by patrilineal descendants of Sir John Stewart of Bonkyll (he died fighting against the Germanic Anglo-Saxons for the independence of Celtic Scotland on 22 July 1298 at the Battle of Falkirk, & was the ninth great grandfather of King James I of England). See http://www.yseq.net/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=12172&reviews_id=96
The reason that I have not participated in this forum for many years is that I do not like to waste hours of my time writing anything that censors do not want others to read. I hope that they will XXXXXX out any information that is forbidden, & allow members of this forum to read the remainder.
Disclosing personal information, e.g., about my ancestry, DNA test results, email addresses, etc. via the Internet for many decades has never caused me the least problem. I am thankful that I rarely receive unwanted email (my Gmail email account automatically filters out all spam).
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I am not a patrilineal descendant of King Robert II of Scotland. I thought that I might be because of what I read on a web site that used to be at www.freewebs.com/ : "Elizabeth White's father was James Robert White, 25/6/1787-9/1/1872. His parents were James White. 1757-1804, & Jane Stewart, 1761-1804, second cousins, who married 4/1/1782. James White was the son of John White, b. c. 1720, who was the son of James White, b. c. 1690, & Frances Stewart, b. c. 1690. James White was the son of Rev. Fulke White, 1662-24/8/1716. . . . That the White family of Whitehall, Broughshane, were of eminent lineage is shown by their close association with the Stewart family, who were of royal descent . . . . Colonel Hon. Robert Stewart was the son of Andrew Stewart , 3rd. Lord Stewart of Ochiltree, c. 1565-1628 . . . "
Hi Stewrt,
I have noticed over the years you do tend to quote that person's webpage a lot - ( I'm really biting my tongue !! And rather not say too much on a public forum as the person is a relative of mine .
I can't emphasise enough to take that webpage with one massive pinch of salt , - Treat that person's webpage as a nice fairy tale.
If you need more info on why I say this Pm me.
Kind Regards
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Hi fowhite
you sent a message to the moderators by using the 'report to moderator' button.
Unfortunately elbo does not have a high enough post count to be able to use the personal message system.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
It seems she joined Rootschat, posted one message and hasn't been back since. She logged on after your reply #32 but hasn't responded.
There maybe something the site administrators can do but I can't guarantee it will work and she may still not reply.
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Now the there has a been a fresh reply from Dawn. Elbo has now been notified of a new reply.
Regards
Sarah
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Hi, please can you let me know how I am connected to Sir George Stuart White. My mother is the daughter of James White (m Agnes Meban), Roughan, Broughshane. James White was in Horseguards and present at coronation of George V or VI before coming back to farm at Roughan, Broughshane. Jack White (George's son) visited frequently and according to my mother, wanted him to buy Whitehall, so it wouldn't go out of family's hands. My mother (who is 87) said she visited Whitehall occasionally as a little girl and said she hadn't felt comfortable there as there had been a fire which destroyed a lot (also letters). Her brother, Samuel White, is 95 and remembers Jack (son) and sons, Tony and Derrick, clearly. Tony came up to Roughan frequently to visit and my mother remembers Jack taking them into school into school, in horse and cart, noses running, eschewing use of school bus. Can anyone tell me how General Sir George is related to my grandfather, James White, of Roughan, Broughshane. Would be much appreciated. I would love to know.
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Cathy, thanks for your msg. Received just as I am leaving for evening-long banquet here. Will research and get back to you tomorrow, Saturday, Sunday worst case. For your info, I am seeking a direct male descendant of the Whites of Broughshane for DNA comparison with myself to confirm my link to the family through John White, the General's younger brother. I have not been successful in finding AP White, the son of Derrick, grandson of Jack. If your mother's brother is a direct male descendant through James, I will be asking if he will submit a DNA sample, all at my expense. Be back to you soon.
Frank White
Colorado Springs
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Hi Frank, hope you enjoyed banquet. If it's any help, my grandfather, James White, was born c. 1877. He had a sister, Margretta, who died young. He had 6 children - Greta, May, Frank, Esther, Samuel (my uncle) and Kathleen, my mother. He had a brother, Jack (not Jack, George's son. Tried to attach pic of him in Horseguards in 1910 just before coronation of George V, before returning to family farm at Roughan, Broughshane, but it wouldn't send. Site said it was too big. Hope that may be of some use. Cathy
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Sorry, Frank. Just one correction. My Grandfather's brother was 'Johnny', not Jack!
Cathy
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Cathy, thanks for additional info--confirms what I just found in 1901 Irish Census and Civil Registration documents. Hoped to find link between James White (1832-1860), oldest brother of the General, to your Grandfather. Not much info on 1832 James, just a mention (not even by name) in the the General's biography. As your Grandfather was born well after 1832 James died in 1860, the illusive connection between families must be further back.
You mentioned yesterday that Jack White didn't want Whitehall to go out of the family's hands, suggesting your Grandfather and he were of the same White clan. Do you have any other indications (stories, recollections, etc. from your Mother, Samuel or others) that reinforce this suggestion?
You also mentioned the fire and letters lost. There is a legend that all of Jack's papers were burned after his death by his sister and wife. In fact, there is a play by an Irish Anarchist writer that is based on this incident. The play has never been performed but the script is available on the internet. I will search on and keep you posted.
Frank
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Hi Frank, just spoke to my mum whose memory isn't what it used to be!
She told me that Captain Jack (George's son) and his son, Tony, used come in horse and trap to visit my grandfather, James, at Roughan, Broughshane, every Sunday. She said Tony was only a little boy then. She said it was indeed Jack who had wanted her father to buy Whitehall but he couldn't afford it as there were no mortgages in those days.
She said that she visited Whitehall with her father when she was a little girl after a fire and it frightened her because she remembered the big rounded doors and the fire marks. She said her father had gone down to help. There was some suspicion over whether the fire had been started deliberately. I don't know if this is the same fire as you mentioned.
She remembers that after Jack's death, solicitors came to visit and told her father that he was the now the nearest living relative to General Sir George. Wish I could find out how exactly.
We still have a large print of a picture of Sir George which she said hung in her Uncle Johnny's house from when George was still alive - a print of the original portrait commissioned by Queen Victoria and which still hangs in the Queen's collection in Buckingham Palace.
My grandfather is buried in the same graveyard as George who has a very impressive grave and commemoration in Broughshane.
My mum says she's 'not very clear' today, but if she remembers any more, I'll certainly get back to you! Keep in touch.
Cathy
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Hi Frank, think I've discovered link with my family to Sir George. My mum has just told me that his father was John White who died when he was around 64. She never met him as she was born in 1929. He was Sir George's younger brother - the eldest was James (the one you're researching). That would mean that Sir George was my grandfather's uncle! Hope that all makes sense.
Cathy
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Cathy, wow! Have to leave for service club picnic in a few minutes, so cannot respond in detail now. Some quick reaction to your Mother's info. If I am reading correctly, she is saying that your Grandfather James is son of John White (1839-1912), younger brother of Sir George. If so, your Great Grandfather is precisely the man I am researching as my probable Great Grandfather. For purposes of shorthand and clarity, I will refer to this John as the "Scholar." I have studied his life very thoroughly, or as thoroughly as one can from Colorado, and can provide a great deal of biographical detail on his education, literary awards and professional life as an educator and public servant, most of his life lived in London. Without going into detail now, I must tell you that I have never found evidence, and in fact, much to the contrary, that the Scholar ever married. I believe my Grandfather John White (1864-1909) was an illegitimate son of the Scholar and sent to Canada to be raised out of sight of the aristocratic White family of Broughshane. Ask you Mother if she knows of any Canadian connection to the family.
Frank
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Hi Frank! Enjoy your picnic! It's raining here and chaotic traffic. There's some kind of truck rally and roads round Portrush, Portstewart and Coleraine are jam-packed.
I'm totally baffled over link to Sir George. Of course you're right - you've done much more research than I! Have been online nearly 24/7 trying to establish elusive link.
What I can't get is direct link, but I know it's there. Why did Jack, George's son, visit my grandfather every Sunday? Why did he want my grandfather to buy Whitehall to keep it in the family? Why did solicitors come after Jack's death to tell my grandfather he was closest living link to Sir George? Just wonder if there are some undiscovered skeletons in the closet of the White clan.
This link: libraryireland.com showed in 1910 there was indeed a Jack White in Roughan, Broughshane and General Sir George White CB, The Misses White at Whitehall (less than 2 miles from Roughan).
Going to drive to my Uncle Sammy's tomorrow to see if I can jog his memory (he's 95). He's still in Broughshane.
Wish I could send you pic of my grandfather. He looks like all the Whites and so proud in his uniform. He was in Royals and Blues and would have had career there, but was told to come home to farm as, allegedly their servants were taking advantage and running farm into the ground. He would have preferred military career in England. He bred racehorses eventually, as well as farming, but always loved horses and had one racing in Grand National in 1950s. I'm sure the Field Marshall would have been proud.
Keep in touch.
Cathy
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General Sir George Stuart WHITE was the son of James Robert WHITE (JRW) and Frances Ann STEWART (FAS).
[He was famous for refusing to obey an order to surrender control of the besieged Ladysmith during the 2nd Boer War, holding on for 4 months till relieved.]
If your favoured line of ascent proves correct (Kathleen, James, John, JRW & FAS) , then he would be your great-grand-uncle, and you his great-great-neice.
[Aka, your relationship, through JRW & FAS, is 0-th cousins, three-times removed.]
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The General's only son was James Robert WHITE, known as "Jack".
He became radicalised during the First World War, and helped to co-found the socialist Irish Citizen's Army. He was associated later with the IRB and then the IRA.
[Perhaps inspired by Sir Roger CASEMENT, who hailed from the same neck of the woods and social standing.]
You could ask your uncle Sammy whether he has any knowledge of "Jack" being present in the Four Courts building on Inns Quay in Dublin during their seven week occupation there (14APR1922 - 30JUN1922).
[Probably not though, since Jack was not a fan of De VALERA, the driving force behind the Anti-Treaty IRA faction.]
They set fire to the building on Wed 28JUN1922. The outgoing British Government authorities put pressure on the newly formed Irish Free State administration to take decisive action. They promptly asked to borrow the use of some field guns and bombarded the building. Such actions restored authoritative political control but, sadly, had dramatic negative implications for the integrity of record sources useful to genealogists.
"Jack"'s 2nd wife together with the help from the WHITE family, ashamed for the family because of his radical ideas and violent leanings, burned all of his books and correspondence after his death.
Capt. Jock
http://www.bydand.net/major-george-white-vc/
https://www.geni.com/people/Field-Marshal-Sir-George-Stuart-White-VC-GCMG-GCVO/6000000015208587960
http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Irish_Citizen_Army
http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Jack_White_(trade_unionist)
http://www.paulobrienauthor.ie/irish-civil-war/assault-on-dublin-1922/
http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-records-burned.html
ADDENDUM
There is much about "Jack" online, including pictures of Whitehall and the huge family memorial in the graveyard of 1st Pb Broughshane.
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchists/jackwhite.html
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchists/jackwhite/bio.html
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchists/jackwhite/pics.html
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchists/jackwhite.html
Looks like "Jack" may not have been in Dublin in 1922.
He was in gaol in Edinburgh in 1921, then a political candidate in Donegal in 1922.
My cousin lived nearby to Broughshane and mixed in the higher circles of society (dealing in antiques). Unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago. Shame, he'd have had stories!
Certainly, Sir George was treated as a great national treasure by Queen Victoria.
His wife, Amelia Maria BALY, died at her home - in Hampton Court Palace!
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Cathy,
Looking forward to any info from visit to Uncle Sammy. By the way, I have sent you a RootsChat Personal Message with info not appropriate for Chat posts.
I believe the best two candidates to be the direct link between your Grandfather James and the Whites of Whitehall are:
(1) James White (1832-1860), first son of James Robert ("The Councillor") and older brother of the General. Unfortunately, research at FamilySearch.org, Ancestry.com, Findmypast.com, as well as numerous other internet queries, have revealed nothing more than date of birth and death for this James. He died well before your Grandfather was born in 1877, but he could have had a son who was father to your Grandfather.
(2) John White (1785-1857), the "The Auld Captain" and brother of James Robert, could have had a son who was the father of your Grandfather. Research in the sources mentioned above, as well as the 1915 biography of the General, reveal nothing about marriage or children of this John. According to the General's biography, "The Auld Captain" was heir to Whitehall in 1804 and apparently lived there his entire life. His brother James Robert and wife stayed with him at Whitehall for a short period after their marriage but then lived in a succession homes in other Antrim locations.
By proposing the two above as prime candidates for research, I do not mean to eliminate the possibility that John White (1839-1912), "The Scholar" and the General's younger brother, could not be the father of your Grandfather. As mentioned in a previous post, there is no evidence the Scholar ever married. Five census returns (1861 at Oxford, 1871,1881 and 1891 in London, and 1911 at Broughshane) show him single. His Will and Probate file, obtained from PRONI archives, show most of his assets were bequeathed to the General and his sisters or put in trust to their descendants. Some small amounts were left to London friends, seemingly unrelated to the Whites.
Frank
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Presumably you already have the marriage of JRW & FAS:
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Thursday, at St Peter’s Church, Dublin,
James R. White, Esq. Barrister-at-law,
to Frances, youngest daughter of the late George Stewart, of Merrion-street, Dublin, Esq
Source: Belfast Commercial Chronicle, 10 September 1825, via online index at FindMyPast.
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So, seems that JRW was himself a Counsel-or.
[Professionally trained in the practise of the Law, licensed to provide legal counsel i.e. discussion/advice.]
Hmm, there is a 7 year gap between their marriage and the birth of James WHITE 1832-1860.
[Was he the eldest son?]
Sir George was born at Portstewart.
Perhaps worth a sniff in that direction?
PRONI's holdings for the Parish of BALLYAGHRAN, CO. LONDONDERRY:
P. Portstewart
Baptisms, 1829-1927;
marriages, 1846-1905;
MIC1P/83
C.I. Agherton (Connor diocese)
[Earliest registers destroyed in Dublin]
Baptisms, 1845-56, 1859 and 1873-95;
marriages, 1845-1928;
MIC1/306
Capt. Jock
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Capt Jock,
This is my fourth attempt at a reply to thank you for your input on the Whites of Broughshane, particularly JRW. The previous three drafts disappeared when the mouse accidentally lifted--never happened before.
Do not have the specific marriage date for JRW but will pull down your reference from FindMyPast, a service to which I have just subscribed. So far, very impressed with newspaper archive.
Seven year gap to birth of eldest son James (1832-1860) is due to four girls in a row early in the marriage: Frances, Jane, Elizabeth, Victoria. Unfortunately, James is somewhat of a "black hole"--no info yet found despite extensive looking.
The three boys appear to have all been born in different locations, none at Whitehall, as the parents moved from one distinguished home to another in Antrim over the years. George's birthplace, Low Castle Rock, at Portstewart looked more like a fortress than a gracious gentry home. I guess it was appropriate considering what life had in store for him.
I use what appears to be the 19th Century spelling of "Councillor" as found in the 1915 biography of the Field Marshall. The author uses the term which may have come from the extensive family history notes of JRW's daughter Victoria. At any rate, the book makes it very clear that JRW's shy courtroom personality did not serve him after being called to the bar. In fact, he had a very short career. JRW's youngest son, John (1839-1912), apparently mirrored his Father in this regard. He too was called to the bar in 1866 from Lincoln's Inn, but chose to report himself in several census returns over his life as a "non-practicing barrister". He put his great intellect to work as a classical scholar, literary luminary and senior public servant in the education establishment.
I hope Cathy can find a certain direct link between her family and the Whites of Whitehall. If so, her Uncle Sammy would be a prime candidate for me to compare Y DNA markers. I believe that John White, the younger brother of the General, is my Great Grandfather out of wedlock. Much documentary and circumstantial evidence, but I need a DNA match with a male line descendant to confirm my findings.
Frank White
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Hi Frank,
Sounds like your mouse has caught the same schizophrenic bug that mine had!
[This is usually due to a "bounce" problem - triggering too much from what was meant as a single click.
Its behaviour improved when I set its double-click speed to "slow".]
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The index created from the newspaper articles offered by FindMyPast states only that the marriage happened on "Thursday".
Presumably this is the Thursday that occurred in the week immediately preceeding the date of publication of the edition in which the event is published - viz. 10-SEP-1825.
So, whip out a convenient "Day of the Week" calculator.
e.g. http://www.searchforancestors.com/utility/dayofweek.html
to reveal that this was a Saturday.
Hence the marriage of James Robert WHITE to Frances Ann STEWART was on Thursday 08-SEP-1825 in St. Peter's, Dublin.
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Yes, growing up behind the walls of of Lower Castle Rock would seem very appropriate for Sir George's beginning in life.
[It is easy to imagine him drawing on his Ulster heritage and practising voicing "No Surrender"!
Ironically, to be used (in more discreet form) in his later life in response to Dutch aggression ...]
Both Sir George and "Jack" appear to have LIVED their lives to the full, albeit in very (!) different ways.
[Perhaps motivated by the early 19thC existentialist philosopher Soren Kierkegaard's inspiring call for us all to aim to become "That Individual"?]
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James WHITE dying at such an early age (28) in 1860 suggests that he might have been involved in a fatal accident (perhaps abroad) or might have succombed to disease (or perhaps a degenerative condition since childhood).
Belfast was booming in the 19thC, so many folks migrated there.
Perhaps JRW was making a living as a Record Agent, transcribing legal records from the Four Courts for use in Antrim court venues.
[This role was picked up by Tenison GROVES in the later 19thC and early 20thC.
His short-form transcriptions form a massive repository in PRONI, now indexed and searchable.
Important 'cos they capture information from Wills, Deeds, etc. prior to the disaster of 1922.]
Yes, you'd need to have a strong "rombustious" character, backed up by extensive "persuasive" rhetorical skills, in order to be successful as a court room lawyer.
Looks like Sir George was named for his maternal grandfather, George STEWART.
[So, perhaps, had been expected to follow his, and his own father's, route in to the legal profession ... ]
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I'd assumed that the spelling of "Councillor" was the usual rationalised American one.
[c.f. Mark Twain's (real name Samuel CLEMENTS, descended from a Ballynure family) famous quote:
"Two great Nations, separated only by the common language".]
In today's UK culture it means a member of the local town council, responsible for guiding the spending of taxes gathered from "rate payers" in its catchment area for the good of the community.
[I had fun a while back trying to find confirmation of James WHITTLE (head of the family at Glenavy) having been a member of the Dublin City Council in the late 18thC - so, definitely a "Councillor" - to no avail. Only two yearly-almanacs (cluttered, chaotic, un-indexed) were still extant at NLI.
And indeed, despite having access to a family history written for the family in 1919, I have been able to verify less than 50% of the "facts" stated therein over the years!]
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Some more trade from the FindMyPast index:
June 3.
Mrs. Stewart, relict of the late George Stewart, Esq., of Merrion-street.
08 June 1830 - Dublin Evening Packet and Correspondent
That was a Tuesday!
----
Can't help you with research on the ground - not in the geography.
More 2moz on the generic origins of the WHITE surname.
Capt. Jock
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Hi All
I'm Cathy's cousin, JD (also grandaughter of James White and Agnes Meban). Cathy, some of your dates are wrong! Granda White left the army in April 1903,having participated in the coronation of Edward VII (I have copy of army record -long story!). This is described by his mother,Maria, in a letter to her Australian cousin. I sent your mum copies if these. Granda White's father was called John and so was his father. Our cousin MK has researched in detail and has dates. I think I'm right but you can check with MK -it looks like any possible link with the Whites of White Hall goes further back. There was a Timothy White living at Roughan in the 18th century who may have been a second son of Rev Fulke White who built White Hall and was an ancestor of Sir George White. (If you google Rev Fulke White it will link to a biography of Sir George White and mentions Fulke White). This Timothy may have been an ancestor of ours but is speculative. Hope that this clears up some confusion in the thread! Cathy,if you like to get in touch can fill you in!
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https://archive.org/stream/lifeoffieldmarsh01durauoft/lifeoffieldmarsh01durauoft_djvu.txt
Here is the link which mentions that Fulke White had two sons. I think MK's speculation is that Timothy of Roughan may have been the "other son" so Fulke White may be a common ancestor to the Whites of White Hall and the Roughan Whites. It may be that a recognition of the family links continued but the actual relationship went back a long way. In the Braid area there was certainly a tradition of acknowledging "yer ain yins" and a recognition of kinship links remained through the generations. Since Fulke White was from the old West Riding of Yorkshire ( and I'm now living in West Yorkshire) I'd be very interested to find out if I have actually come "home"!
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Hi JD!
Took me a minute or two to work out who you were!
It was mum who told me that Granda White was at the coronation of a King George - I knew it couldn't be George VI, so had thought it had to be George V. Thanks for putting me right on that score!
I had seen some of MK's letters from lady in Australia and with immense help and patience from Frank White of Colorado Springs, have managed to trace family back to John White b1782. Cannot find any trace of his father. Even visited Racavan graveyard last week and saw headstone of our great great grandmother, Margaret erected by Granda White's father, John - but, disappointingly, no headstone for his father.
Further research has shown that Fulke White's younger son, John, who is buried in 1st Broughshane, couldn't possibly have been the father of John b1782, as he would have been too young to have a son.
Does MK know for sure that Timothy White of 18th century was his father?
I'll get your phone no. from mum and give you a call sometime soon.
Cathy
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Hi all, I am new to this site having just come across this thread by chance, haven't read all the comments! However, my grandmother was the great niece of Sir George White, I assume his brother was her grandfather from what I gather. Its very strange reading this thread knowing that we are all, somehow, distantly related!
Alica x
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Hello all. I am sorry I haven't been in touch - life really busy. I'm amazed and fascinated reading Cathy's post hearing her speak about Tony. That was my father!!! Jack White (son of Sir George) was my grandfather. He had three sons, Derrick (father of AP White, my cousin) Alan (based in South Africa and father of four sons) and my father, Anthony White (Tony) who had four children -I have two brothers and a sister. Hope this helps. Cathy and Alicia where are you based? I'm not sure what relation we would be!
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Hi! I am now just outside London, we moved from N Ireland when I was 3 but all the relatives are still there. I think we would be very distant cousins if you.Are straight down Georges line as we follow from his brothers. Will call my aunt later and see what info I can get, my dad isn't sure and my Nana is now 91 so not sure what she could recall of the lineage.
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We aren't allowed to post details of living people or personal details but you've now enough posts to use PM (Personal Message) system to exchange email addresses, discuss living relatives, etc.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/profile05.php
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Hello Everyone,
Does anyone have any further information about Rev. Fulke's other son? or any other children that Fulke's son James had?
KW
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My 5th Grandmother was Anne White of Whitehall, Broughshane. She married a Richard Brown Bamber of Belmont House, Belfast (Born 1721 and died 1774). His mother Hannah Bamber was born in Dublin in 1686 and was baptised in Eustace Street Presbyterian where his Grandfather Richard Bamber worshipped.
Unsure which White was her father. Anne and RB Bamber had three sons, Richard (1747) George (1760) and Henry (1750) plus more maybe. I have no other information than that on Anne
Interestingly, Richard Brown Bambers mother, Hannah maiden name was Bamber and children all took her surname into adulthood.
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Ann White, who married Richard Brown Bamber, was the daughter of Archibald White of Dublin (d. abt. 1735) and his wife Jane Smith. Archibald's will names his wife Jane White otherwise Smith. Three daughters Margaret, Martha and Ann. Cousin James White, exor. Cousin Timothy White, exor., brother to said James White. Cousin Archibald White son to his uncle Archibald White. Henry Lecky, Coleraine, Co. Londonderry, Esq., and Wm. Hamilton, Dunnemanagh, Co. Tyrone, trustees. Robert Dent, Dublin, gent. Money due to him out of residuary assets of James Martin. Town and lands of Derryfore [Queen's Co.].
A transcript of Archibald's will can be found here:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-3C3Q?i=588&cat=185720
The lands of Derryfore came to Ann and were part of her marriage settlement which can be seen in the following deeds:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-GD85?cat=185720
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-M7FK-P?cat=185720
Archibald was the son of John White/Whyte, the younger, merchant of Belfast. He was the brother of Fulke White of Whitehall. John's family is very well documented in Jean Agnew's Belfast Mechant Families in the Seventeenth Century, p.250-52.
Jane Smith (Archibald's wife and Ann's mother) was the daughter of Andrew Smith (d.1700) and his wife Martha Bell. Martha's brother was the alderman, Thomas Bell (and Mayor of Dublin 1702-03). Jane's grandfather was Samuel Smith of Belfast, (an abstract of his 1726 will can be found at findmypast.com).
See the following:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSHW-ZCXJ?cat=185720
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-M3BN-7?i=473&cat=185720
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-9HQ9-X?cat=185720
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Amazing bit of research. Thanks James