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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Skull on Wednesday 07 May 08 07:27 BST (UK)
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Re Thomas Buckland:
Forgot to add that Thomas' son, Alfred Buckland (b. 1840) married Sarah Margaret Lee from Wansford in Northamptonshire.
Were either of these families travellers?
Thanks
Skull
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Just came across you message of last year on if your forebears were Gypsies. I would say so at Bucklands & Lee's were prominent Gypsy families. Sylvanus BUCKLAND was transported to Western Australia. If you would like the info, just say- Roser
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Any info on any of the the Bucklands and Lees would be greatly appreciated - transportees included!
Thanks
Skull
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Hi Skull- Hope this helps. Some of the Bucklands & Lee's served in WW1-2 . Google WW2 Nominal Roll for 2nd war. If you google National Archives of Australia and select search. Form comes up. Top line type the surname and about 4 lines down asks for a number. Type in B2455. This is a code for all Australian who served in WW1 . If you leave out the name you will get the lot- To many LEE's to send, but Fred LEE arrived here Free settler chasing Mrs Chitty. Quite a story. I Have his Genealogy - Roser
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BUCKLAND Heinz (Henry) William ( Known as Harry) born 31.8.1862 (Perth .Western Australia.. son of Sylvanus Buckland & Mary Wallace. Married 21.11.1884 ( Methodist Jarrahdale W.A) Annie Matilda Caporn b.1865 d.c1948 daughter of Edward Caporn & Sarah Ann Endersby, issue, Henry Edward Sylvanus b.1886 (Perth .Western Australia.) d.1886 (Perth) aged 1 day), Samuel William b.1887,John Thomas b.1889 (Jarrahdale .Western Australia.) , Vincent Gerald Willie b.1891 (Perth) d.3.4.1950 (Perth .Western Australia., buried Methodist Karrakatta),Lily Joyce Maud b.1893 (Canning .Western Australia.) d.1977, Mary Sarah b1896 (Perth) d.1897 (Perth) aged 15 months, ,.Henry William b.1898 (Perth .Western Australia.) died 1918 ( after he returned from WW1) Annie Adeline b.1900 (Leederville .Western Australia..) d.1973, Albert Edward b1902 (Leederville .Western Australia..), Olive b.1904 (Jarrahdale .Western Australia.) ( Heinz was a Sawyer, carpenter, millworker at 13 years of age.. Had a citrus orchard at Roleystone .Western Australia... To Buckingham & Bowelling. Gosnells .Western Australia.. dairy farmer in. 1918 and then to Buckingham again. Was a carpenter in Perth between each move. (See Bicentennial Dictionary of .Western Australia.n.- Erickson ) ( see Also Registrar General Index .Western Australia..)
BUCKLAND Henry born 1760 (Oxfordshire), transported 1812 per vessel “Guildford” (Convict Index 1788-1868)
BUCKLAND John Thomas born 1889 (Jarrahdale Western Australia) married 1919 (Wellington District) son of Heinz (Henry William) Buckland & Annie Matilda Caporn married Sarah Ann Clarke. (See Bicentennial Dictionary of .Western Australia.n.- Erickson ) ( see Also Registrar General Index .Western Australia..)
BUCKLAND Lily Joyce Maud born 1893 (Canning District Western Australia) daughter of Heinz (Henry William) Buckland & Annie Matilda Caporn married 1912 Jack Gibbs. (See Bicentennial Dictionary of .Western Australia.n.- Erickson ) ( see Also Registrar General Index .Western Australia..)
BUCKLAND Mary Ann born 1856 (York .Western Australia.) daughter of Sylvanus Buckland & Mary Wallace marr Samuel Dawes (see DAWES) .. (See Convicts in .Western Australia. & Bicentennial Dictionary of .Western Australia.n.- Erickson & O’Mara & Erickson)
BUCKLAND Samuel William born 1887 died 25.10.1925 (Carlise .Western Australia..) ( buried Karrakatta Perth .WESTERN AUSTRALIA..) son of Heinz (Henry William) Buckland & Annie Matilda Caporn marr 1912 (Canning District) Beatrice Daley (Registrar General Index .Western Australia..)
BUCKLAND Sylvanus (No 1531) born 1834 U.K. died 1890 (Murray District Western Australia)( buried Jarrahdale W.A) son of John Buckland. An unmarried blacksmith, convicted at Southampton , Hampshire UK. 23.10.1851. Sentenced to 10 years, Arrived in .Western Australia. per the vessel “Dudbrook” 7.2.1853. Ticket of Leave 5.8.1854 and Conditinal Pardon 10.10.1859. Located in Perth. Granted permission to marry half year return 31.12.1857. married ( Methodist York .Western australia..) 24.12.1857 Mary Wallace b.1834 (Ireland) ( She arrived .Western Australia..27.7.1850 per vessell “Sophia) daughter of John Wallace ( a farmer), issue, Mary Ann b.1856, Emma b.1858 Maria Louisa b.1.7.1860 (York) .Western Australia.. d.15.10.1861 ( of Dysentry at York .Western Australia.. buried York .Western Australia..) Heinz(Henry) William b.1862, Sylvanus Thomas b.1864, Benjamin, John b.1870 d.1873,. (Sylvanus was listed in York .Western Australia.. in 1859 (Census as a fitter, Engineer & blacksmith. Was employed for many years at Jarrahdale Mills. In 1888 when unfit for work he applied for temporary outdoor relief) .. (See Convicts in .Western Australia. & Bicentennial Dictionary of .Western Australia.n.- Erickson & O’Mara & Erickson) (see also Registrar General Indexes .Western Australia..) ( see also Avon Valley Collection by Jan James)
DAWES Marion Beatrice born 1889 daughter of Samuel Dawes & Mary Ann Buckland. .. (See Bicentennial Dictionary of .Western Australians.- (see also Registrar General Indexes .Western Australia..)
DAWES Samuel married 1872 (Canning Disctrict) Mary Ann Buckland born 1856 (York .Western Australia.) daughter of Sylvanus Buckland & Mary Wallace, issue William b.1882 (Jarrahdale), Edward b.1885, Marion Beatrice b.1889 (He was a Jarrahdale Timber Co. employee 1884 (Ref Almanacks) . Sawyer in 1889 (Anglican). .. (See Bicentennial Dictionary of .Western Australians.- (see also Registrar General Indexes .Western Australia..)
DAWES William born 1882 (Jarrahdale) son of Samuel Dawes & Mary Ann Buckland .. (See Bicentennial Dictionary of .Western Australian.- (see also Registrar General Indexes .Western Australia..)
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Have a couple of Buckland References, no idea at all if any help.
Reputedly William Buckland married Amey Heron / Hearn
and they had a John Buckland married Sarah Heron / Hearn who was daughter of Richard "Old Dick", supposedly by Devit, although I have seen other children attributed to Devit actually being baptised as children of Margaret, Dicks supposed other wife.
John and Sarah had Manuel/Emmanuel Buckland and he suposedly married Sinfy Buckland the daughter of Billy.
Their son Emmanuel was b.cir 1817 Ratley Warks, died 1903 Chipping Campden Glos and married Susan/nah Coldicott.
Emmanuel & Susannah had: Ansall b.cir 1860 Worcs, Emmanuel b.cir 1851 Oakley, Lavinia b.cir 1857 Worcs, Marendah b.cir 1867 Olderton Glos, Oshanney b.cir 1855 Charlbury Ox, Richender c.01.11.1863 Alderton Glos, Selina c.25.10.1846 Tysoe Wrks, William b.cir 1868 Blockley Worc.
Sinfy Buckland also married Edward "Naibai" Heron, brother of Sarah and reputedly a son of Richard & Devit.
They had a son Reynolds c.1819 Moulton Lin and another Isaac c.1824 Sutterton Lin. This Isaac married Sinfai Gray d/o Piramus Gray and Amelia Heron (d/o Edward "No Name" Heron who was reputedly Old Dicks brother.)
Now Edward "Naibai" Heron also married Sinfy Bucklands sister, Siberensi Buckland.
And they had Eldenham (aka Edmund) Heron c.1813 Easton On The Hill, Warks, who married Christiana Smith and Jemima Smith.
I have also found 2 references for children of an earlier Emmanuel Buckland who was married to Aquila.
Severeci c.1783 Southill Bdf, and Sarah c.1785 Sandy Bdf.
Hope some of that proves useful
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Thanks for all the information. I don't know if my Bucklands are connected to any of this lot, but I will certainly investigate.
Skull
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Hi. I have seen your posting about Sylvanus Buckland who was my ggg uncle. Although I can go no further back than his parents, I do not have any evidence that he comes from a Romany family. I would be much obliged if you can tell me if you know about his origins and/or for certain that he comes from a Romany family.
gilb
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Skull; Just about everything ye've told us is 'good'. I'd be interested to hear now what ye haven't mentioned. Professions? Surrounding names? Locations?
I mean; Ye obviously haven't just pulled those names out of a hat. Elaborate, please. Ye never know what might matter ;)
Same goes for you, Gilb. Give us something more to work on, please. I mean, " Was Sylvanus Buckland a Gypsy? " (Was the last pope a catholic?!)
But, we can't go round handing out credentials on the basis of what's patently obvious. We really have to prove even who our own parents were. Few enough, if any, BC's state things like " Father: John Smith ~ Gypsy ". So we need to build up an overwhelming case of ' circumstantial evidence ' .
Clues to look out for are known Gypsy names, Sur' and Fore'. (Not always that obvious either). Typical Gypsy occupations. The same things surrounding those they, and their wider family, marry. Popping up in different places in different Census years can be good too ~ though don't let street addresses, even ones held for years in succession, fool ye ;)
Of course; " Travelling Gypsys, living in tents / caravans in Dingley Dell. Occupations; Hawkers, Umbrella Menders and Horse Dealers " pretty much takes the cake.
But, we always start with a name ..... 8)
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As far as I can tell, none of my ancestors appear to be connected to any of the 'gypsy/traveller' Bucklands that you have listed. I have traced the family line back to John Buckland born in about 1673, who married Jane Hall in Stoke Poges. Nearly all of my Bucklands seem to have stayed in the Langley Marish, Burnham, Stoke Poges and Farnham Royal area of South Bucks from this period, and up to the coming of the railways.
All of the men were agricultural labourers and gardeners, and the women servants and charladies. The first names of all my ancestors were the usual names of the various periods: John, Thomas, Richard, William, Charles, Ann, Mary, Elizabeth, Martha etc. The only unusual name was Marmaduke Buckland from Stoke Poges. This name was handed down through the generations. However, I can't connect this Marmaduke directly with my ancestors, although the different Buckland families were all living 'cheek by jowell'.
Like a lot of researchers, I haven't been able to go back any further than the late 1600's, so I don't know if my Bucklands were in the area before then, or had arrived from elsewhere. I have been trying to establish a connection with the many Bucklands from the Melksham area of Wiltshire, but have come up with nothing.
Skull
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I had intended my question about Sylvanus Buckland's roots for RomanyRoser but as these are my first postings, I too am learning and should have made that clear.
Sylvanus' father was William Buckland, not John, which is just the name Sylvanus gave when he was in trouble with the law, presumably to distance himself from his family. William's occupation on his death certificate is 'labourer', not a traditional Romany occupation.
Sylvanus was born in Widcombe, Bath in about 1834. His father was William who died of decline in 1838 aged 37, so never made it to the 1841 census. Sylvanus' parents married in Bath in 1826 or 1827 (25th December I believe). They then lived in fixed accommodation and were certainly not travelling after their marriage. I think the Buckland roots MAY have been in Ditcheat but have no proof of this, just an older Buckland couple living in Widcombe in the 1841 census who came from Ditcheat and another Sylvanus Buckland in the nbi buried in Ditcheat aged 22 in about 1829.
Sylvanus' mother was born Hannah Batten/Batton, in Somerset (Chard or Whitestaunton?) about 1804 so that has no particular Romany links.
So Sylvanus Buckland did not come from Buckinghamshire, but Somerset, and his parents lived in a house/tenement all their married lives.
So whatever the pope may be, this Sylvanus was not a traveller, though of course, back a couple of generations, who knows?!
PS The earlier references to Heinz Buckland are really just Harry Buckland and are a mistake in the official transcription.
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Sylvanus' father was William Buckland, not John, which is just the name Sylvanus gave when he was in trouble with the law, presumably to distance himself from his family.
So Sylvanus Buckland did not come from Buckinghamshire, but Somerset
That's interesting stuff :) So; Ye obviously have this guy pretty well pinned down, and ye reckon he's the same one Roser appears to have pinned ..... but, I can't seem to see where the guy's said to come from Buckinghamshire ???
And Sylvanus 'gave a different fathers forename when he was in trouble with the law' ....? Was Sylvanus often in trouble then? Only, Gypsys tended to adopt a different surname when it hit the fan. Never before heard of Anyone changing their fathers forename. Most intriguing.
So; We have Sylvanus Buckland of Bath, who was a Blacksmith by profession and a very naughty boy! ;D
Anyone know what he did, to get Transported? Was he, perhaps, in constant mischief and they got fed up with him? Or did he pull off one big action that got him sent over? (Though, of course, in those days it didn't seem to take a lot to get that sort of response, did it?)
Gilb, forgive me. I'm not trying to somehow up the Gypsy body count here. People ask if a surname is associated with Gypsys and I tell them, best I can. But, as I said above; It requires a lot more.
Only, 'Sylvanus' is one hum dinger of a name, isn't it? And being a Blacksmith and having been sent over? I'd have put money on a result there. What a shame ye can't get that one generation back. Because I'd like to see who was around this guy. See why William might decide to use such a name on his boy.
Incidentally: " William " is listed as The Number One, all time most popular name for male Gypsys! :o Wouldn't credit it, would ye? Not that every William is a Romany. But, it seems just about Every Romany family managed to fit a William in. Crazy, eh? ;)
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Anyone can tell from my posts on this forum that I'm no genealogist. However given the fact that I am a living, breathing, Gypsy, I can sometimes offer anecdotal evidence and details from oral history that has been handed down.
With that in mind, South Bucks, is now and has been for centuries, a hot spot for the Buckland Gypsies. There are hundreds of them there today and all within spitting distance of Stoke Poges.
What's more, like my Smith family, there prefered route of travel was from the fruit growing areas of Bucks, to other picking seasons in the West. ( Wilts, Glos, Hereford, etc. Add " ag" to the word labourer and add that to the name Sylvanus Buckland and I would say there is an 80% probability of a Gypsy ancestor.
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I am also seeking BUCKLAND in Buckinghamshire for my soon-to-be sister-in-law. I've researched back (with census, vitals etc) to Louisa BUCKLAND d/o Edward marrying William LEE s/o James (although I think this might have been a fib) on 13 Feb 1843 in Camberwell, Surrey.
I have William & Lousia (BUCKLAND) LEE in 1851 census Newington Surrey. Louisa is 23 so her dob is circa 1828. She gives her place of birth as Buckinghamshire but I cannot find her or father Edward in 1841 census.
Really want to find out who her mother is and take the line back further if possible.
On marriage record William LEE is a minor, a traveller, and both fathers list occupations as Brazier. Does anyone have any info on these families?
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Beware there are loads and loads of Bucklands around Stoke Poges Bucks area who are not travellers.
The clue to this lot is their names are bog standard names of the times, john, Charles, Edwards, Williams etc.,.
I have a James Buckland from Bucks who went off to Westminster, married a lady from Durham in Westminster 1811 and spent the next 20 years toing and froing between Datchet/Langley Marish/Eton and Westminster, children baptised in both places. James was an upholsterer as was his wife and daughters. The children were all well educated, one son went on to be a post master and the other one disappeared around 1843.
They don't give any clues to being travellers...
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Thank you jc26red, I appreciate your response.
Since the marriage record states "traveller" and both parents occupations are given as "Brazier " (isn't this a common gypsy traveller occupation?) I think my Lee and Buckland bride and groom were indeed travellers.
If I'm wrong, please advise but that's my understanding. This is new to me
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I think you are probably right with your particular couple being travellers. They married very you didn't they!
I've looked or Edward or Louisa but can't find either of them in 1841.
My concern is that they give the same occupation for both fathers on the marriage cert and neither sets of parents signed as witnesses.... which I think is unusual given their ages and both acknowledged to be minors. Think there maybe more untruths on the cert.
Jenny
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If anyone wants to know more about the descendants of Sylvanus Buckland let me know or contact the Jarrahdale Historical Society in Western Australia ( its a great little town) .
He did indeed get transported , was unmarried (only 19) and lived in Jarrahdale. He got ten years for stealing a silver watch. I visited his grave last week. His son Benjamin Sylvanus (my grandfather) survived WW1 however his brother John was killed July 1917 in Ypers and is buried near the Mennin Gate. There are many living family members in Western Australia, where, convicts are cool...lol.
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Jarrahdale Football Club 1912 , Benjamin Sylvanus Buckland front row, second from left.