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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: Lass on Wednesday 07 May 08 16:40 BST (UK)

Title: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Wednesday 07 May 08 16:40 BST (UK): Hi everyone.

I have recently made contact with a 'cousin' in Chile and have now got a serious genealogy itch that I need to scratch! I've been working on the family tree with information already researched by many cousins around the world, and I haven't yet verified it all, but this I'm keen to look at this ancestor in particular for the moment.

David Balharry was likely born in Forfarshire/Angus in around 1835. I have been completely unable to trace birth records that fit with the information I have (even with the variations in name spelling that I have found so far). Of course, I might be going blind with looking at records so may have missed something, I wouldn't be surprised!! To complicate the matter, my Chilean cousins assert that his mothers maiden name was Jeffers (or similar) and I now begin to wonder if he was perhaps registered at birth as illegitimate as Jeffers but later used his father's name - I just know he will have done it specifically to confuse me!!

He emigrated to Chile in 1850 (date unverified but asserted as reliable by Chilean ancestors) with his sister, whose name is as yet unknown. Our understanding from his grandson, who is still living, is that he went to Chile specifically to work on the internal railway line. He was 'very young' when he arrived in Chile. I have the IGI record of the birth of a son after David's marriage to a Chilean woman, and my Chilean cousins have a wealth of information following the lineage from there.

However, since I can't find a relevant birth certificate, I'm banging my head off a brick wall trying to figure out where he fits into my tree. I thought perhaps that I might try to work it backwards from his journey to Chile, and that's where I'm lost.

Can anyone shed any light on what might have been the route he'd have taken to Chile and how I might find relevant records? I've tried a few sites with no joy. I'm new to this and am lucky enough to have been handed a wealth of information by extended family members, but now I'm hooked!

Hoping someone can help before I go crazy!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Thursday 08 May 08 03:53 BST (UK): Hello Lass,

Welcome to RootsChat.

Unfortunately, it may be that there is no record of David's birth/baptism to be found :'( . Statutory Registration did not begin in Scotland until 1855. Before that, the only records would be baptismal records in church registers.

However, many many people were not baptized at all.

And, even if David was baptized, there are many reasons why a record of the event might not be able to be found. Most of the existing indexed pre-1855 Scottish baptismal records are those from the OPRs (Old Parish Registers) of the established presbyterian Church of Scotland. But there were also many, many other presbyterian churches and there were also (though fewer) churches of other denominations; so he might have been baptized in a church the registers of which have not been indexed. Another possibility is that he was baptized in a church the registers of which have not survived.

(A good thread to look at is "Where to start with Scottish Research" by Boongie Pam which is stickied at the top of the Scotland General board at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,24468.0.html )

So perhaps the only source then would be the 1841 census.
The closest I can find on FreeCEN at:
http://freecen.rootsweb.com/
is the following:
Step Row, Dundee, Angus
Jean JAFFERY 30
Adam BALHARY (sic) 7
Both born Angus.

You might wish to look at the image on ScotlandsPeople though I rather doubt that Adam is a transcription error (the given name is also transcribed as Adam on the Ancestry site).

And remember - the 1841 census rounded down ages of persons over 15 to the nearest 5. Also it does not give marital status or relationships. Another thing to remember is that, in Scotland and especially in 1841, married women are often recorded under their maiden names.

I haven't found either Adam or Jean in the 1851 census.

Good luck,

JAP
PS: I take it you've discounted David BALHARRY, b 8 Apr, bap 19 Apr 1840, Auchterhouse Angus, parents David BALHARRY & Janet PAUL?
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Thursday 08 May 08 09:38 BST (UK): Hi JAP - thanks for the welcome and the advice!

I have the 1841 census details of Adam with Jean Jaffrey and yes, the transcripton is indeed correct. It still interests me though, since I've yet to match these up with the relevant ancestors, but I suspect the similarity with Jaffrey/Jeffers is pure coincidence...... I have got IGI records showing the birth of David's first child in Chile so that reinforces that the christian name is indeed correct.

I have to confess that when I started researching the family tree, I was a tad haphazard in my approach, running off on tangents when something new cropped up! I am now a bit more organised and reviewing all the info I can find to see if I've perhaps missed a record of David along the way, but I accept what you're saying in that I may never trace his birth records at all. Thanks for the directions to the 'where to start' thread - again, I just jumped in before taking the time to trawl ::)

I didn't know about the rounding down of ages on the 1841 census, blooming heck that will explain a lot!! - thanks!

Finally, yes, I have discounted David b.1840 as I have details of his marriage in Scotland so he's not my man.

Thanks again JAP, keeping my fingers crossed!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Thursday 08 May 08 11:06 BST (UK): Hello again Lass,

If the 1841 census is the only place he might be found, then I guess that runs into various problems especially possible transcription errors of that surname. And, of course, he might not even have been in Scotland in 1841 ...

It would be interesting to know where the Chilean rels got the maiden name from ...

Best of luck,

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Thursday 08 May 08 16:13 BST (UK): Hi JAP, thanks for staying with me on this!

In Chile the mother's maiden name is pulled forward when the children are born (making genealogy a lot easier I reckon!).

The full name of the ancestor I'm hunting, as far as my Chilean cousins are concerned, is:

David Balharry Jeffers

The mother's maiden name is always put at the end of the name, with the immediately preceding name being the father's surname. Whilst she wasn't 100% sure on the spelling of the name (yes, been there, done that!), she's confident that it was his mothers name.

Now interestingly, since it's been quiet at work today, I've been doing a bit more hunting and I've come up with the following:

David Balharrie (spelling as per OPR Birth) born 18/10/1829 in Auchterhouse

My only concern with this (and I haven't yet checked census to trace him) is that his father was James and my Chilean cousins are positive his father's name was also David. So, could be a red herring although he did have that all-important sister, a couple of years younger than him. Still have much to check on that.

I also found an OPR record for the marriage of David Balharey and Margaret Jaffrey 29/04/1833. I back tracked to this when I rechecked my certificate stash and found a death certificate for Benjamin Franklin Balharry, son of David Balharry and Margaret Jaffrey, 31/05/1870.

Unfortunately, although I can find older records with the same spelling of Balharey (which I'm assuming is a variation) I can't find any other record of children they may have had other than this (although very possibly Anne Balharey IGI record of marriage to David Turnbull 1858).

I'm reticent to take this couple as the father of the David I am looking for, purely based on the spelling of the name and the fact that this spelling has been carried forward from at least 1724. However, these Balhareys are from a slightly different area of Scotland than my Balharrys, so I guess there's a possibility that the local dialects have impacted on the spelling.....

I can't wait to get home now and trawl my records!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Friday 09 May 08 02:59 BST (UK): It seems to be quite a large brickwall!

Perhaps more information on the sister might help?

And perhaps it might be worth posting a query in the Common Room and/or Scotland Angus boards - cross-referenced to each other and also to this thread. There are some real research terriers on RootsChat who can't resist a puzzle/brickwall (give it a catchy subject line!) ;)

Best of luck,

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Friday 09 May 08 05:22 BST (UK): Weehee!!
Been pomdering this one all day - and now JAP has elicited more clues.... ;D ;D

Lass, Benjamin Franklin BALHAREY may just be your big clue....it's a very odd name for a Scottish child....smacks of being born overseas, or having a strong connection to overseas.....

I was also wondering - as you say David's sister was younger than him, and if he was indeed born abt 1834 and was in Chile by abt 1850 when aged very young (abt 15?) - even in those days it's very young for a lad to be travelling alone with a sister even younger than himself, unless perhaps there was a) family in the destination country to whom they were going or b) they travelled with at least 1 parent or older family member?? Just my thoughts on that....

Now, the death registration has this Benjamin as age 21 when he died 1871 in Angus.
Can you please tell us:
the address where his death occured or where his usual residence was?
who was the informant?
what was his father's occupation?

Look at this:
1861: 25 Prior Road, Forfar, Angus
Head: John BEAUMONT 31, Teacher of Languages?, b Gerrans, Ayrshire
Wife: Jessie BEAUMONT 28, b Maylole, Ayrshire
Son: William l BEAUMONT 7, b Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Son: John F BEAUMONT 6, b Forfar
Son: Robert BEAUMONT 6, b Forfar
Son: Frederick A BEAUMONT 4, b Forfar
Dau: Jessie BEAUMONT 3, b Forfar
Dau: Margaret BEAUMONT under 6 mths, b Forfar
Boarder: Jackina? BLAIR 17 (female) Scholar, b Kirkmichael, Ayrshire
Boarder: Benjamin F BATHANEY 12, Scholar, b Chile
Servant: Jane THOMPSON 17, Domestic Servant, b Forfar
Servant: Jessie EDWARDS, 16, Nursery Maid, b Kirriemuir, Forfarshire

You would need to consult the original image on SP to see if this Benjamin is a BALHAREY (var) - and considering the number of mis-transcripts of the BALHARRY/IE names of the transcribed source, it's very possible!

Cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Friday 09 May 08 05:27 BST (UK): Just checked SP search: they index Benjamin in the 1861 Census as BATHARRY ;D ;D
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Friday 09 May 08 05:39 BST (UK): AMBLY, Brilliant work!! Congratulations.

I'd searched for Benjamin Franklin in various ways on the IGI - but didn't think of the 1861 census.

Can't wait for the next instalment.

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Friday 09 May 08 11:49 BST (UK): Ambly, I don't know what to say, you're a marvel!! ;D

I didn't mean to suggest in my earlier post that David's sister was necessarily younger than he. My reference to the sister being a couple of years younger was particular to David 1829 and I have to admit that it didn't sit well with me either that they'd both be such little uns when they emigrated. I have yet to hear back from my cousins who are checking out information over in Chile - the sister married the then French consul and returned to France with him, so that should be traceable relatively easily from the Chilean end. I suspect that when we find her much will fall into place........ fingers crossed!

I think the information you've found Ambly has raised more questions than it answers, especially after looking at the dates etc give on the death certificate but it's another very welcome piece of the puzzle!!

Death Registration - Disctrict of Montrose, County of Forfar

Benjamin Franklin Balharry (illegible) (Single) (From Forfar)

Died 31st May 1870 at Lunatic Asylum, Sunnyside, Parish of Montrose

Male

Age 21 years

Parents: David Balharry and Margaret Jaffrey

No profession of David Balharry noted [which I find odd]

Informant: Thomas Mowatt (Attendant) [asylum staff presumably]

Now, David and Margaret Jaffrey married in 1833 in Dundee and on looking at this originally, it did occur to me that they'd been married a hell of a long time before having Benjamin, however I figured there were probably children in between that I couldn't trace. Perhaps a trip abroad had something to do with it.......

Try as I might, I cannot read the word inserted directly below Benjamin's full name where the occupation would normally be placed, although my best guess would be 'Clish'.

Do you think it's possible that his place of lodging on the 1861 census is due to the fact that he was with a teacher of languages? His first language may not have been english after all.......

JAP, thanks for your help, you're asking all the right questions it would appear!! And I'll certainly go about cross referencing in the other forums too! All help is more than welcome ;D

Time to hit the census/IGI/everthing else I can find!! Oh it's just as well I'm quiet at work just now ;)

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Friday 09 May 08 15:51 BST (UK): Hi Lass and AMBLY - and anyone else who has followed this thread!

Can't agree more Lass! AMBLY is certainly a marvel

But Lass, your find of the death of Benjamin Franklin was the pointer. Wish we could find David & Margaret on the 1841 - though perhaps they'd already gone to Chile. Of course the possible variant spellings of the surname do pose a problem (I, as a person who has found nearly 100 variants of a particular Scottish surname, say this feelingly ...).

What a fascinating multicultural thread this is!

Lass, after seeing AMBLY's find, I assumed that Benjamin Franklin had been sent to Scotland to study English (etc) - and interesting that this was in Angus (perhaps there were relatives nearby?). Mr BEAUMONT (b Ayrshire) appears later as a teacher of English & Mathematics, and subsequently as Head Master of a Public School in Aberdeenshire.

Difficult to know what age Benjamin Franklin actually was - the actual 1861 census image (from SP) might help? I guess there's no reason why the death informant would have known what Benjamin's father's profession was ...

Lass, perhaps you could post the section of the dc with the occupation which you are having difficulty reading ...

Anyway, let's hope your Chilean cousins are now able to find more details about the family in the Chilean records.

Again looking forward to the next instalment.

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Friday 09 May 08 22:15 BST (UK): Hi again JAP, Ambly and anyone else intrigued with my fascinating 'brick walls'!

JAP, I've checked SP for the actual 1861 census image and it does indeed show Benjamin as being 12 years old.

There were certainly plenty of relatives in Angus for Benjamin Franklin to rely on, it's where we all hail from, even I was born there in 1969, so many of us didn't move very far from our origins!! I'm not long home so planning to sit here and see what I can find on David and Margaret Jaffrey, there must be something out there, surely they would have returned with their son and not left him to fend for himself in a foreign land with family he didn't know........

Friday night is my usual time for chatting with my Chilean cousins so I'm hoping we'll have some news on the sister later on, I'll be sure to keep you updated with anything I find ;)

In the meantime, here's that section of the dc that I can't decipher - I'm beginning to think I've been looking at it too long and I'm sure that you'll probably take one glance and figure it out!

Crown Copyright Image
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Friday 09 May 08 22:53 BST (UK): Hi Lass
;D If JAP were here right now, no doubt we'd be saying in unison - Benjamin's occupation was "Clerk". This pleases me, as I was wondering if he was sadly, congenitally hadicapped (which could have been a reason for being sent "Home") ie - one of those poor people labelled as "imbecile" on the Census. Seems not, but a look at the original 1861 Census may at least dispel that.

It was relatively common for ex-pat families to send their offspring (from around 10 onwards) to schools back home, especially boys. The wealthier the family, the more remote their location (ie the colonoies) the more probable that might happen. It would be to get them well educated for a Profession, to brush up their "native" culture, etc. And that's is a point - ther is every possibility it was the senior David who was BORN in Scotland, ended up in Chile. and had most of (if not all) his children born there. But all thru his life the younger David, may have considered himself "from" Scotland.

This is a facinating thread! If you look at my Avatar - tell your Chilean cousins that a lassie from Islas Malvinas (Falklands) is trying to help you out :-) Just out of interest, this schooling of the colony children, continued well on : when I was 9 in the Falklands in the 1960's, I and my parents were offered the chance to have me sent, at that tender age, to either Uruguay or England for an 'advanced' education! that I would not get at home I chose not to go, at least I had the choice! In the end of the day, though I guess it was (is) boarding school type of thing.

Looking forward to more, too, especially about the sister and her Fremch Comsul husband! ;D

Cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Friday 09 May 08 23:23 BST (UK): Welcome back with your wonderful knowledge AMBLY! ;D

Clerk!! Of course ::) Seems so obvious now ;) There's nothing special noted on the original 1861 census document, so it must be assumed he was capable of work at least until he entered the asylum.

I'll be glad to let my cousins know about the the fantastic help I'm getting from the Islas Malvinas! I really am so grateful for the help you've me given so far, and for the wealth of extra information you have been giving me, it's almost like being back at school, but so much more interesting ;D

I'm not going to apologise for getting you hooked, I'm just glad you find this as fascinating as I do (now you can see why I've dropped every other ancestor till I get to the bottom of this!!) - this is what I love about researching the family tree - I've found cousins I didn't know existed, in far flung areas of the world, and in finding out more about them get to work on an intriguing puzzle and learn so much from interesting folks like you and JAP ;D

*sigh*

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Saturday 10 May 08 04:14 BST (UK): There are nice images and a history of the Montrose Lunatic Asylum, Infirmary & Dispensary (established 1781 and now Sunnyside Royal Hospital) at:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/museum/medical/sunnydays.htm

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Sunday 11 May 08 00:00 BST (UK): Hi Lass and JAP

I'm thinking there is a strong liklihood that Adam BALHARY age 7 from the 1841, with Jean JAFFREY age 30 is connected? They were at Step Row in Dundee in 1841, both listed as born Angus.

The IGI has just one Jean (Janet) JAFFREY born abt 1811 in Angus.
These are the parents listed and all the children who are on the IGI:
Father: Thomas JAFFREY
Mother: Isobel BRUCE
Children - all christened Newtyle , Angus
James JAFREY chr 15 May 1799
Alexander JAFFREY chr 15 Jun 1800
Margaret JAFFREY chr 5 Sep 1802
Jean JAFFREY chr 5 Apr 1807

It's pretty certain, the IGI family is the one from which the Census Jean springs from.........as follows
http://www.fdca.org.uk/howff.htm
The HOWFF cemetery Dundee database

Has the following entry:
#419 - Jean JAFFRAY age 36, born Newtyle
Buried 16 Jul 1845
Died of Consumption
Her last address was: Step Row, Perth Road
Daughter of the late Thomas JAFFREY, Farmer

The indications are that Jean died unmarried (else the burial record may have been expected to say she was a widow of etc). If this is on the right track - Adam might possibly be Jean's nephew? And Jean's sister Margaret could be the one who married David BALHARRY? And possibly making Adam their firstborn....but not finding anything on him at all apart from this one Census entry.

If the above Margaret JAFFREY is 'our one, then she would have been at least 31 when she married David BALHARRY......

Lass, what part of Chile do you have the family recorded in at the earliest time? Do you know anything about where the railway was that David was working on?

cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Sunday 11 May 08 01:11 BST (UK): Good morning AMBLY ;)

I had the feeling Jean and Adam must have been related somehow, too much of a coincidence I guess, but you certainly have been busy!!! Well done AMBLY, once again you've come up trumps!!! ;D

Newtyle was a definite favourite with the Balharry family, and the immediate surrounding area, so it's no surprise to find that these connected Jaffreys come from there too.

I've spent most of today searching census under variations of spelling of Balharry that I haven't tried before - had some success but not the ones I was looking for! I wonder about Adam being with, it would appear, his aunt. Given that I can find absolutely no trace of David Balharry and wife Margaret anywhere on any census, do you agree that this would suggest they'd already left the country? If Benjamin Franklin was born in 1849 in Chile, it would seem that between Adam's birth in c.1834 and the census of 1841, they may have already emigrated. If the birth date for Margaret according to the IGI record is correct (and I'll check SP just to make sure), then this would make her 47 when Benjamin Franklin was born - this helps a bit because I always presumed 'our' David would be younger than is now apparent. I've also been trawling the emigration records but rather than going in with variations on the surname spelling, I'm using wildcards, so it's slow going.

I have a birth cert for David Balharry, son of David Balharry and May Fleeming, born in Longforgan in 1806 - I'm off to see what more I can find on this particular David ............

My cousins tell me that David and his sister lived in Burdeos - I have a suspicion that this is incorrect and that she is confused with Burdeos, France, where the sister later ended up with her French husband as I have tried to google Burdeos, Chile and am getting nothing except a reference to wine! Perhaps it's known as a region where they grow the wine.... The living grandson tells that David went to work on the construction of part of the Chilean railway network in the north of Chile (that is the internal railway line, not the Chile-Bolivia line for example) and that the work on the line was completed in 1865. Family legend on the Scottish side initially believed David to have been a direct relative to me, born in 1840 but I have since discounted this particular ancestor as other records contradict this. But, interestingly, the grandson is suggesting that the date of birth would fit with his understanding of David being very young when he 'arrived' in Chile.

They are certainly still working on the premise that David was born here, but I agree with the idea, from the knowlege you've gleaned so far, that this seems unlikely and that it was actually his father who arrived first.

All I have from the cousins on the elusive sister is that she married the French consul in Concepcion.

Another interesting snippet I've just connected after reviewing my online conversation with my cousin: 'their' David, who married Benigna Nunez de la Vega had 7 children, one of whom was named Benjamin - I know that was a popular name in Chile, but for me it harks back to Benjamin Franklin :)

I'm sorry folks, I've just realised I'm rambling again, I seem to be incapable of making a short post!!

Thank you again AMBLY, it's so wonderful to be in touch with you as you obviously know from experience where to look next!! I haven't spoken to my cousin this weekend, so fingers crossed I'll maybe catch up with her tonight.....
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Sunday 11 May 08 04:05 BST (UK): Hi Lass

You make me blush, really! I was just luckly enough to find Benjamin on the 1861, is all! And if not for JAP's very informed questions and information, I wouldn't have even got to that ;D As to where to look next, well I truly have no idea apart form the ususal, narrowing down of locations and a bit of 2 +2 ing ;D

My feeling is that David snr and Margaret surely must have left the Scotland sometime prior to Benjamin being born (all the while, assuming the information of the death cert was correct in naming his parents as it did).

If Adam was their son, I would also like to think they are still in the UK if not Scotland in 1841 too.... wish I could find them, and wish we could discover what David did for a living when he was in Scotland. A wonderful mystery all round, it's like it's all there on the tongue-tip - waiting for that one little trigger ;D

My thoughts, with trying to pin down the earliest known locations of the Chilean family, is to then be able to find Churches in the area which may have records, of their baptism, marriages and burials..........a headstone would be Perfick, with all the dates and names listed and still legible, of course....

Burdeos or Burdeaos - translates into "Bordeaux" or "Burgundy" (there's the vino again!).

The only reference I can find to "Burdeos" in Chile is :
Roca Villa do Burdeos, which as far I can work out, a geographical location - like a Coral Rock or something, a scenic landmark, 43K from Concepcion......in the Biobio valley.
http://water.worldcitydb.com/roca_villa_do_burdeos_159170.html
http://www.tageo.com/index-e-ci-v-06-d-159170.htm
http://travelingluck.com/South%20America/Chile/B%C3%ADo-B%C3%ADo/_3965321_Roca+Villa+do+Burdeos.html#themap

It sort of seems in the right area, doesn't it? Could they have live near it perhaps? Unless it had a house perched on top of it!!

Hmmm!

cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Sunday 11 May 08 12:59 BST (UK): Hi AMBLY :)

I got no more than a mere couple of minutes, literally, talking with Chile last night. The grandson still maintains that his grandfather was not born in Chile so I'm going to keep looking to see if I can maybe find his birth here, before David and Margaret left. It turns out that my cousins have a portrait of David snr which in my opinion reasserts his presence in Chile. Maria (my cousin) tells me that she's tried to research David jnr but as he 'was not born in Chile' they have no records - also, unfortunately this David is not going to make it easy for us - he apparently was killed in an accident ......... at sea!

I have tried every variation in spelling that I can think of for the 1841 census but just can't track them down. That said, I also can't find any record of Adam's birth, but I really do think that if he was living with his Aunt (presumed) at the time of the cenus, it was because his parents weren't around. If that's the case, I do wonder why the didn't take him with them.....

Have you any ideas on the likely route that would have been taken to get from Scotland to Chile? Hmm just had a thought, I wonder if they moved down south prior to leaving Britain, I didn't think to check census records other than Scotland...... sorry, I'm thinking aloud now!! ;D I hope I'm making my ponderings clear as it seems we are now talking about 2 different Davids!!

I assume that the northern region of Chile where the wine is grown is referred to as Burdeos since the wine originated from Burdeos, France, but I'll need to get more info from Maria I think.

Ok, off to check more records and watch the F1 racing at the same time...... think maybe I should make a pot of coffee first!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Sunday 11 May 08 13:45 BST (UK): Hi again Lass,

Going back to basics ...

The only linked paper trail we have is (I think):

* a Benjamin Franklin BALHARRY, aged 21 (ie b ca 1849), born Chile, died in Montrose, Angus in May 1870, parents given as David BALHARRY (occupation not stated) & Margaret JAFFREY; Benjamin had been boarding in the family of a schoolmaster in Forfar, Angus in 1861.

* a David BALHAREY & a Margaret JAFFREY married in Dundee, Angus in 1833.

(Of course, there might even have been two couples called David BALHARRY & Margaret JAFFREY - but I think that would be too much of a co-incidence!)

If at all possible, it would be good to find out whether the Chilean rells can research the birth of Benjamin in Chile ... and perhaps thus find out more about his parents?

Perhaps I've missed something but I don't recall that we've seen anything which definitely identifies David B & Margaret JAFFREY who m in Angus in 1833, to the David B who married Benigna Nunez in Chile and had children with her.

The baptism of a son, Jose David BALHARRY, to David B & Benigna in 1878 in San Isidro, Santiago, Chile is in the IGI - perhaps that actual record might reveal something (occupation of that David B, godparents, etc?). I guess the film/fiche could be ordered in to your local LDS Family History centre.

I can't recall whether you've obtained the OPR entry for the marriage of David B & Margaret JAFFREY? Probably no further clues but ...

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Sunday 11 May 08 14:35 BST (UK): Hi JAP

Yes, you are correct about the paper trail we have - so far ;)

I have the OPR marriage for David Balharey and Margaret Jaffrey, m. 20/04/1855 Dundee
Margaret is detailed as the daughter of Tho. Jaffrey, Shoemaker

Stat Death of Benjamin Franklin Balharry d. 31/05/1870 aged 21 Montrose, Forfar.
Parents detailed as David Balharry & Margaret Jaffrey

1841 Census for Forfar, showing Benjamin Franklin Batharry aged 12, born in Chile.

1841 Census for Dundee, showing Adam Balhary, aged 7, born in Angus, living with Jean Jaffrey.

I really don't believe it's too much of a leap to assume these are all linked but I do wish I could find something more on David and Margaret.

I need to get Maria to try to research as you suggest JAP - this probably hasn't occurred to them because they've always assumed a generation further on.

Re the 'link' between David and Margaret Jaffrey and the David who married Benigna Nunez - the only thing this is based on is the assertion from my cousin that 'her' David's mothers' maiden name was Jeffers or similar (she was unsure about spelling and of course it's probably contorted slightly over the years). Again it is understood the father of David, who married Benigna, was also David.

I am aware of the IGI for Jose David Balharry, but frustrated by the fact that I can't trace any other records for baptisms prior to that, for Benjamin Franklin for example.

Is it just me or are all these Davids confusing????

Lass x

Note: I've just realised that, unlike the other entries on the same page as David and Margaret's marriage, there is no occupation noted for David.
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Sunday 11 May 08 14:50 BST (UK): I'm just thinking aloud now, and putting this in here in case I forget the thought!!

It's possible the David and his sister who are asserted to have arrived in Chile and started that line, actually were born in Scotland, but arrived in Chile with their parents. If David B and Margaret Jaffrey were married in 1833 they had plenty time to have kids before their possible arrival in Chile in c.1850. Although Adam (if connected) was born 1834, it is possibly more likely that their first child would have been named David (I know, huge assumption, but still....).

Also, I'm wondering what happened to Adam - if he was still alive when Jean Jaffrey died about 6 years after he appears on the census with her - was he already dead, and if not, where did he go?

Like I say, just setting my thoughts down, don't pay too much attention to my ramblings!!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Sunday 11 May 08 15:18 BST (UK): Hi again Lass,

Yes, I've still been mulling over it too :D

It certainly would be good if the Chilean descendants could follow up on paper trails at their end. Things are going back a fair way (1849 at least - Benjamin Franklin's estimated birthdate - in Chile). Also, with all the various people called David etc it's quite possible that family stories are not absolutely correct, or that generations might have been mixed up - it's happened to nearly all of us!

I'm also wondering about British consular records and similar. I'm sure I recall threads on RC where people found such records for births overseas. Does the 1861 census image describe Benjamin as a British Subject? If so, one would think there might have been a consular record.

Another thing that struck me is whether the Chilean descendants have found any Monumental Inscriptions which might include family information.

Similarly whether you have looked into MIs in Angus. I've come across some in Fife where a family monument has had very useful information added to it re people who have died overseas.

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Sunday 11 May 08 15:37 BST (UK): Hi JAP

The 1861 census for Benjamin is the document that advises he was born in Chile so I'm not sure how much documentation would be availble to us via consular records, but it's worth the hunt! I also didn't think about MI's although I'm not sure my ancestors had the money for that ;) Still, it's another avenue to check, so thank you for the suggestion :)

I've just fired off an email to Maria outlining our latest belief that David jnr was not the first David over there and asking her to see what she can find on the Chile end. I know that there's a fairly well-known burial monument in Chile that is connected to Rosa, the daughter of David B and Benigna Nunez - not yet sure whether it originated from Rosa's husband's family or not, but it's another clue for the cousins to check.

I've trawled the 1841 English census but can't find David and Margaret there either so I think I'll head back to the emigration passenger records for a while. Or try to hunt down some more information on Adam...... or ....... or ........ ;D

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Sunday 11 May 08 15:48 BST (UK): Just another quick comment re info given in earlier posts.

Margaret J who married in 1833 was recorded at her marriage as daughter of Thomas J, a Shoemaker

Jean J who died in 1846 was recorded at her marriage as daughter of Thomas J, a Farmer

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Sunday 11 May 08 16:01 BST (UK): Hi Lass and JAP

Me just thinking out loud too.....some scearios:
if David B and Margaret J married 1833 and if Adam was theirs and if naming patterns were followed -it might be that David's father would be Adam and so named the first born after him..... or that they had children quickly and Adam was the 2nd born named after Margaret's father. But then, it appears Margaret's father was Thomas the shoemaker*

Adam was theirs. but his first name was not Adam (ie Adam was a to-name or middle-name)
Adam was hers but not his
Adam was theirs but born before marriage
Adam was Jean's son - but Jean is Margaret's sister and they both got involved with BALHARRY lads!
Jean is related to Margaret but not as sisters.

So, I would also searching for Adam as a J*FF*R*Y - JEFF*R*Y baptism / death.

Re the Chilean records - I would definitely try to find the name and location of any Church where any earliest possible event was recorded. And more about that accident at sea for David Jnr. - would there be a newspaper article about it, perhaps.

cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Sunday 11 May 08 21:18 BST (UK): Hellooooooooooo

Just when I was starting to be disheartened for the day, with no progress at all, I've found the following IGI records -

Christening 08/01/1878 Milton Bryant, Bedford, England

Rosa Eloisa Balharry

Parents David Balharry and Benigna Nunez

Christening 09/07/1878 Milton Bryant, Bedford, England

Jose David Balharry

Parents David Balharry and Benigna Nunez

Christening 14/07/1878 Milton Bryant, Bedford, England

Josefa Elena Balharry

Parents David Balharry and Benigna Nunez

;D I was going to head over to SP but this is a christening record which of course won't be on there, dammit. I'll see if English census might be able to shed more light, but I had to share!! ;D ;D ;D

My 16 year old son has just asked me why I'm grinning at him like a fool!!! ;D Sorry, it's just the sense of victory, small though it may be - I know you all share that feeling, but I'm going to wallow in it for a wee while!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Sunday 11 May 08 21:39 BST (UK): Are you sick of me yet?? ;)

Since I'm getting a ton of hits for IGI South America when I google Milton Bryant, can I take it that it has some consular connections do you think??

I'm sure one of you will know the answer ;)

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Sunday 11 May 08 23:05 BST (UK): Wahoohey! Lass! Forget grinning - I'm dancing ;D ;D Wonderful find - clever you!
That looks like a Batch christening almost doesn't it - I suspect they were not in the country (England) for the event(s) ..........

If, on the IGI page - you follow the SOURCE number for that Batch C003791

It says:
Registros parroquiales, 1686-1970 Iglesia Católica. San Isidro (Santiago, Santiago)
Translated:
Parochial Registers 1686 - 1970 English Catholics, Sab Isidro (Santiago)

Is the family Catholic in Chile?

If you follow that link, it goes to more on another page....... How is your Spanish?
I can get the gist of quite a bit and can work out pretty much in full eventually, if you need any help!
Otherwise, Babel Fish can be helpful!
http://babelfish.altavista.com/

My thinking is now - to try find a batch with deaths and marriages on it, starting with the San Isidro Parish!

Wahoo! (again ;D)

Cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Sunday 11 May 08 23:20 BST (UK): Tons of batches to choose from, if you "View the Film Notes"
Would be nice to find some on-line at least, but suspect you may have to order film in for at least some of them.... then of course, which year batch to order ;D ;D
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Sunday 11 May 08 23:21 BST (UK): Hi AMBLY!! ;D

Yes, definitely looks like a batch - the IGI record recorded in England for Jose David reflects the christening date on the IGI record originating from Chile, so it looks like that date at least is consistent. I can't find IGI Chile records for the births Rosa or Josefa unfortunately, at least not under Balharry. This info doesat least tie-in with the details I got from Maria for the children of 'her' David - she told me that the children of David and Benigna were:

Benjamin
Elena (this must be Josefa Elena)
Victoria
Rosa
Margarita (possibly named after her grandmother?? ;))
and 2 others whose names I don't yet have!

I know this isn't where we were concentrating, but still!! I'm wondering though, if these children are being registered 'back home', would this be usual if the father David had been born in Chile, son of David born in Scotland?

And yes, the family in Chile are very definitely Catholic!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Sunday 11 May 08 23:29 BST (UK): Ooooo look, you've found lots of new avenues while I was busy typing!!

Strangely, whilst my Spanish is pretty much non-existent, I can make out most of the gist of that page, and whilst my cousins' English is faultless, I do use babelfish now and then to at least make the effort to use some Spanish in our conversations!

At least now I can point Maria in a specific direction of research - for me at least, specifically the marriage record for David and Benigna in the hope that it might confirm the parents names. Unless I can find the relevant batch online........

Thanks for sticking this out with me, it's great to have someone to 'bounce' off!!! ;D

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Monday 12 May 08 00:05 BST (UK): Hi Lass,

Just a thought - Would the family have also been Catholic in Scotland too? Or do you think the Catholicism came about by exposure and then conversion to that predominant faith in CHile - perhaps via marriage....

cheers ;D
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Monday 12 May 08 04:38 BST (UK): Hello again Lass & AMBLY,

Well, I've seen some monumental LDS indexing "stuff-ups" in my time but this one takes the cake :o

I hasten to add that I am a huge admirer of the genealogical indexing which has been done by the LDS - our research would be impossible without the wonderful records which they make available online and through their family history centres. I am ever grateful to them. :)

The old "controlled extraction program" of the LDS was excellent with very few errors 8)

But quality control on batches inserted in recent years seems to be non-existent e.g. wrong places obviously entered and "filled down" with no checking at all. I've pointed some of them out to the LDS (email contact on Familysearch) but there seems to be a complete lack of comprehension coupled with an almost total unwillingness to investigate, explain, improve, correct, etc ... >:(

I had checked out the source and film notes before posting the following earlier:
Quote
The baptism of a son, Jose David BALHARRY, to David B & Benigna in 1878 in San Isidro, Santiago, Chile is in the IGI - perhaps that actual record might reveal something (occupation of that David B, godparents, etc?). I guess the film/fiche could be ordered in to your local LDS Family History centre.

But it hadn't occurred to me to check whether the same entry appeared in other countries - why on earth would it! How fortunate, Lass, that you found names and dates for siblings (as well as him) in this batch which idiotically purports to come from "Milton-Bryant"!

Just to elaborate on the whole indexing mess, the South American and the Milton-Bryant batches each have the same batch number and the same source number. The source number (1798170), of course, leads in both instances to the Chilean source.
However ...
- if one looks at the batch number (C003791) selecting South America as the region, one gets a list of 1558 names all in San Isidro
- if one looks at the same batch number (C003791) but selecting British Isles as the region, one gets a list of 3058 names (i.e. apparently including the 1558 but also with additional entries) and all purporting to be in "Milton-Bryant, Bedfordshire"! Incidentally, all are pretty obviously South American names.

One wonders how any data entry person, however inexperienced, could have managed so many errors at once!! ::)

This is obviously a widespread problem ...
I tried the next batch number - C003792.
This produces a list of baptisms purporting to be in Milton-Bryant, Bedfordshire. But a quick check finds that it's pretty obviously a mixed list of Anglo names (all typed in upper case) and likely South American names (all typed in lower case).
The source number leads to Milton-Bryant records.

However, take one of the likely South American names - say Felipa BALQUI.
Search for Felipa in All Resources - there are two records, one is the one purporting to be in "Milton-Bryant" and the other is for Peru. The Peru one has a different batch number (C023844) and is a list of baptisms in Amazonas, Peru - it has no source number at all ...

That noise you hear is JAP pulling her hair out while sighing in utter despair because past experience shows that there is absolutely no point in drawing all the above errors to the LDS ... Even LDS members who run Family History centres get no joy when they try ...

Anyway, the whole point of the above is to say "Forget Milton-Bryant!" - and best not to mention it to the Chileans. It is clearly just another of the increasing numbers of LDS indexing errors. I guess just be grateful for the additional names of Jose David's sibling - however flawed the location.

All the best,

JAP
PS: Well, I've submitted a Contact Form on the FamilySearch site reporting this particular mess - rather more bluntly than on previous occasions. But don't hold your breath.
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Monday 12 May 08 11:27 BST (UK): Quote from: AMBLY on Monday 12 May 08 00:05 BST (UK)
Hi Lass,

Just a thought - Would the family have also been Catholic in Scotland too? Or do you think the Catholicism came about by exposure and then conversion to that predominant faith in CHile - perhaps via marriage....

cheers ;D
AMBLY

Hi AMBLY

No, the family here weren't Catholic, strictly Church of Scotland as far as I can tell. I would image there weren't too many CoS in Chile at that time!! I simply assumed that Benigna would have been Catholic as that certainly is the predominant religion in Chile, and that David had 'converted' prior to or upon marriage.

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Monday 12 May 08 11:35 BST (UK): Hi JAP

Ohhh please don't pull out any more hair, I don't want to be partly responsible for your baldness!!! :o

I understand what you've said in your post about the indexing, what I don't get is why Milton Bryant? Am I missing something obvious here? The other thing that puzzles me is that whilst I can find the siblings in the Milton Bryant IGI records, I can't find them in the Chile IGI records. It was actually a lucky accident to find them in the first place!

Anyhow, I shall move on from the dirty word (Milton Bryant!!) and see what other progress can be made today!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Monday 12 May 08 11:39 BST (UK): Hi Lass & AMBLY,

Yes, surely David agreed to convert because of his wife.

And whether David was Church of Scotland or one of the breakaway Presbyterian groups (or, indeed, something else) we simply don't know. The marriage of David snr and Margaret JAFFREY was clearly in the established CofS but they might have subsequently joined a breakaway Presbyterian group and that may well be why we can't find their children on SP or the IGI.

I've had an acknowledgement of my Contact Form to the LDS - that always comes immediately!! But I don't expect any sensible reply (if, indeed, they d reply further). I'm very very sorry to have to say this because I'm so very gratefully indebted to the wonderful records and films of the LDS which I have used for umpteen years.

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Monday 12 May 08 12:16 BST (UK): Quote from: Lass on Monday 12 May 08 11:35 BST (UK)
I understand what you've said in your post about the indexing, what I don't get is why Milton Bryant? Am I missing something obvious here? The other thing that puzzles me is that whilst I can find the siblings in the Milton Bryant IGI records, I can't find them in the Chile IGI records. It was actually a lucky accident to find them in the first place!

Oh Lass, please don't ask impossible questions ;D

And no, you are definitely NOT missing anything obvious (or even arcane) as far as I know.

Why Milton Bryant?? Well, why not (or Timbuktu or Woop-Woop or ...)?? If these new thoroughly incompetent LDS indexers/data entry people (subject, it seems, to no double-checking or quality control) are going to get things so incredibly and unutterably wrong, why not Milton Bryant - perhaps an incompetent data entry person was entering many South American records and stupidly entered MB for some or all - and then "filled down" on an Excel worksheet or similar.

As for why some records appear and not others - again, why not when the recent LDS data entry processes are plainly just so very very incompetent.

A possibly related question (though I suspect this is a quite separate matter from earlier years) is why, for so many many parishes in the British Isles, we find all the females in the online IGI but none of the males (who are most certainly recorded in the OPRs) - this is a fact! But the explanation of this might be quite different - certainly nobody (including senior LDS family historians) has been able to elicit an answer.

If only the LDS would EXPLAIN!! Many many people (including senior LDS family historians) have asked - but no answer has been the stern reply (so to speak).

If you wish I could search for other related threads where similar problems have been raised in the past.

But truly - I believe that the Milton-Bryant location, and the entry of some but not all of the individuals is nothing more than yet another monumental LDS indexing "stuff-up".

I do wonder what must the LDS members involved in the meticulous original controlled extraction program think - if they are no longer alive they must be revolving in their graves and sadly despairing in Mormon Heaven.

Sorry, Lass, but I really can't explain further. To me it's so obviously yet another indexing stuff-up >:( :'(

And I really would take no notice of that stupid Milton Bryant location ...

;D

JAP (polishing the newly bald pate!)
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Monday 12 May 08 12:48 BST (UK): Sorry oh bald one, I didn't truly expect an answer as such to my questions, just musing aloud!! ;) I just wondered, further to my previous comment, if perhaps MB was connected in some way with the collation of consular records, but it does certainly appear on the face of it that it's a rather large error. I guess since the whole LDS entry exercise is such a huge undertaking mistakes have to be expected (if not entirely accepted!) and the wealth of information available makes up for that I dare say. Still, it's frustrating and obviously a very sore point with you!

Never mind, I'm optimistic that we'll find more information to help fill in the gaps along the way, and I'm eternally grateful for your help ;D

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Monday 12 May 08 13:14 BST (UK): Hi Lass,

The very occasional typo was no problem in the old LDS controlled extraction program - which ended yonks and yonks ago, and which comprises the vast amount of the wonderful and accurate extracted entries in the IGI.

However, the LDS seems recently to have started to enter extracted data again (yes, quite a piddling amount of data compared with the vast quantities of the old controlled extraction program). The "sore point" with me is very specific - namely that quality control on the newly entered data seems to be non-existent and (sadly) that huge errors abound. And that the LDS aren't interested in learning about (much less dealing with) the errors in the newly entered data - even when presented with proof positive of them.

Perhaps the more users who contact the LDS about the problem, the more likely they are to address it?

Perhaps you yourself might like to submit a Contact Form and query the 'apparent' discrepancies you have found. See:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03ek

All the best,

Baldly,

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Monday 12 May 08 22:11 BST (UK): Thanks for the link JAP, I'll make use of it in the hope that the more people who feedback, the sooner they might pay attention ;)

I wonder if either you or AMBLY might know what route our David and Margaret might have taken to get to Chile? I have assumed, rightly or wrongly, that they would have gone via the US and have been taking a look through the Castle Garden records. I have found a Margaret Jaffors who arrived in Saint John (I assume New Brunswick) in 1834. She is recorded as being 32 years old on arrival which makes her dob c. 1802. Now I may be new to this game, but I know perfectly well that this isn't necessarily something to get excited over, since there's absolutely no way to verify it's our girl. The dates just fit so nicely, it would be lovely to think it's that easy!! I can't trace David at all, but I'm still trying variations on the surname spelling which are bound to be an issue with his emigration, since I have been unable to verify anything about him other than his marriage to Margaret. Grrrrr!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Wednesday 14 May 08 19:56 BST (UK): Hi again all!

I had a very interesting chat with cousin Maria last night and now perhaps have some further avenues to investigate.....

Before I go on, to avoid any confusion, I will refer to David who married Margaret Jaffrey as David snr and to his son (we presume) as David jnr and to his son as Jose David. I don't know about anyone else, but my brain couldn't cope!!

Maria had previously told me that they understood that David jnr had 'gone' to Chile to work on building the railway. He is also understood to have died in an accident at sea, perhaps as a naval employee.

In our chat last night however, another interesting snippet of information came out - apparently Jose David was expelled from the Chilean army for being a Mormon.

Now, Maria vehemently denies that he was Mormon and insists, as does her grandfather, that Jose David was indeed Catholic, even having attended a Catholic school. However, aware as I am of the stigma of the past of being a non-Catholic Chilean, I have to assume there is an element of bias in Maria's assertion. To quote Maria, "years ago... not been catolic... was an insult...".

To be fair though, her grandfather did say that if you were a foreigner back then, you were automatically presumed to be Mormon, whether it was true or not, and I can see that being the case.

However, this had started me wondering whether Jose David was in fact Mormon, courtesy of his father, and his father before him. It could be that David jnr was Mormon and either converted to Catholicism on his marriage to Benigna, or married in the Catholic church to keep his lovely lady and family happy!

If that was the case, it would seem likely, to my inexperienced eye, that David snr had converted to Church of LDS and that this was the reason for his and Margaret's emigration.

I was also thinking, if Jose David joined the Chilean army, they were either not aware of his foreign roots, or that he was Mormon. If the Mormon label was applied to him it would, it appears, be for one of those reasons or the other. He may indeed have been Catholic and it was actually the discovery of his ancestral origins that turned the tide against him.....

Too many questions, I don't really know where to go from here! Any thoughts? I've been accessing LDS for the IGI records since it was pointed out to me as a great source, but I haven't looked at it from the point of view of actual Church of LDS records - does anyone have any suggestions about the best way to go about exploring this now?

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Thursday 15 May 08 02:21 BST (UK): Hi again Lass,

LDS MEMBERSHIP
That's an interesting story - but whether it offers any possibility for tracing any of the BALHARRYs is another matter ...

A Google for
Mormon + Chile
gets lots of hits. Have you tried this?

One hit suggests that Mormons didn't start converting people in Chile until the 1950s.

From the Salt Lake Tribune at:
http://www.sltrib.com/lds/ci_3661412
"VALPARAISO, Chile - LDS Apostle Parley P. Pratt, his pregnant wife Phoebe, and Elder Rufus C. Allen arrived in this bustling seaport Nov. 8, 1851. They had come to Chile to see if it was yet ripe for Mormon missionary work.
.....
The Pratts and Allen gave up on Chile after four months and returned to San Francisco. They had converted no one. It would take another 100 years before Mormon missionaries would reach Chile's shores"

Family folklore is fine but can sometimes get a bit confused. Do they have any documentation of Jose David's service in the Chilean army (it might even give some info about his father). Also do they have any documentation about David jnr's working life, about his marriage (I wonder whether the record of his marriage to Benigna states his occupation and nationality), and about his death (death certificate, newspaper report, etc). And there's still Jose David's baptismal records which just might contain clues ..

ROUTE TO CHILE
This has rather stumped me. I did find a Google mention somewhere which said that Valparaiso was a port at which ships going from England to San Francisco often stopped at that time ...

Cheers,

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Thursday 15 May 08 10:09 BST (UK): Hi JAP

I did have a look at google to connect Mormons with Chile and couldn't find anything that substantiated my thoughts. Also, LDS didn't get to Dundee, Angus (where David snr married Margaret Jaffrey) until 1851 which is too late in the day. Of course they may have moved from Dundee, I spent much of last night scouring IGI for David Balharry's with lots of variations in the name spelling and came up with some that I hadn't previously tried, finding more than a few Davids in England.

What I can't get my head around is, if Jose David was not Mormon, then if he was expelled from the army it would suggest it was because of his roots - I find that idea unlikely I have to say, since they would be kicking him out because of his grandfather's origins (assuming we are putting the pieces together correctly and David jnr was born in Chile). I know all too well not to rely too heavily on family history when it comes by word of mouth, although this did come from Jose David's son, so I'm willing to accept that there's likely a lot of truth to it, in some way or other.

I seem to remember Valparaiso cropping up in my conversations with Maria, must check that out......

Maria has agreed to go to Santiago or Concepcion to have a look at the records, I've armed her with batch/source details so hopefully she'll find something that might take us a step further. I'll keep you informed!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Thursday 15 May 08 22:34 BST (UK): Hiya ;D

I apologise if this is becoming personal log - I found myself looking through the thread as a reminder of info today, it's like my own note pad!!!

I found an IGI rcord today for the following:

Baptism Record

Jane Jeffrey Balhary
30/03/1839
St Marylebone, London

Parents: David Balhary and Margaret Jeffrey

I took a look at the English 1841 census but can't find Jane, David or Margaret at all. I really suspect this is our folks but again can't find anything to substantiate it. I also took a look on FreeBMD but couldn't find this baptism entry.

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Friday 16 May 08 01:06 BST (UK): Hi Lass,

Fascinating!

But ... It's one of those (relatively new) infuriating 'I' batches which give no Source information whatsoever >:(

A strange batch - only 244 entries, all females, earliest 1762 and latest 1874.

I had a look in the Family History Library catalogue on FamilySearch for holdings relating to St Marylebone (Marylebone). The most likely looks to be the following:
Church records (register of baptisms), 1753-1874, Scotts Presbyterian Church (Marylebone, England).

A search for BALHARY on FreeBMD gets only 3 hits (1839, 1841, 1845) including:
Jane BALHARY, birth, March quarter 1839, Westminster, Volume 1, page 334

It might be worth getting that certificate?

Regards,

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Friday 16 May 08 01:30 BST (UK): Just for completeness - the 1841 entry is the birth of a female BALHARY, and the 1845 entry is the death of an Andrew BALHARY.

An Andrew BALHARY, 40, is in the 1841 in Streatham Surrey with wife Christian 45 and daughter Elizabeth 10 - Andrew & Christian b Scotland, Elizabeth b Surrey.

This is surely the Andrew who died in 1845 as, in 1851, Christian BALHARY is still in Streatham, a 55yo widow born Edinburgh, with unmarried daughter Elizabeth 18, plus Christian's sister Agnes PORTEOUS and a servant - HO107/Piece 1579/Folio 431, Page 23.

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Saturday 17 May 08 00:20 BST (UK): Hi Lass and JAP!
Wow Lass! That was a GOOD find - amazing stick-to-it-ivness on your part..

and WOOHOO!!!!!!!!!!
I'm dancing - I'm dancing!

1841: Marshman Street - Parish of St John the Evangalist, City of Westminster, Middlesex
David BALHAREY 30, Cabinet Maker, b Scotland
Margaret BALHAREY 30 - b Scotland
David BALHAREY 5 - b Scotland
Jane BALHAREY 2 - b Middlesex
Margaret BALHAREY 1 mth - b Middlesex
HO107/ Piece 737/ Book: 7/ Folio: 5/ Pg 5

Name could look like BALKAREY I suppose, but clearly, undeniably it is BALHAREY!!

So gap between David and Jane - maybe they had a little one who died.
And maybe Adam was theirs still, and for whatever reason was still up in Scotland.

Cheers ;D ;D
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Saturday 17 May 08 00:32 BST (UK): Still Dancing!

BIRTH: Female BALHURY or BALHARY - Jun Qtr 1841 - Westminster ST Margaret - Vol 1, pg 387
(this must be Margaret - it's indexed twice)

Cheers :D
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Saturday 17 May 08 00:56 BST (UK): AMBLY ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Well done, bliddy well done you marvellous, marvellous creature!!!!!!!! I swear I thought I'd tried every imagineable variation on the spelling, but you've cracked it!!

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOO!!!!

I'm sooooo pleased to see they were still in the country at that point, and especially delighted that it's evident David jnr was indeed born in Scotland :D I'd better let Maria know not to go pouring over Chilean baptism records trying to find him!!!!

AMBLY, you commented on my stick-to-it-ivness, but as far as I'm concerned, you take the Gold Medal!! Thank you thank you thank you a million times over!!

I'll keep you updated with any other peaches that come back from Chilean records! And I'm off to hunt down David jnr's birth/baptism records again, now that I know he was definitely in the UK!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Saturday 17 May 08 02:01 BST (UK): AMBLY and Lass, that's absolutely brilliant!

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Tuesday 20 May 08 22:01 BST (UK): Nothing to report from Chile yet I'm afraid. I've also pm'd one of the members here who has an interest in the Jaffrey name in the hope that she might have a snippet that would help.

However, out of interest, I thought I'd share a reply I received on another forum regarding the route our guys may have taken to Chile.

Quote
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/maproom/pinkbitstrade.htm is a good map showing trade routes. It looks like you could hop a boat in London and zip right down to Chile and the Straits of Magellan (which Chile gained control of in 1843).

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Tuesday 20 May 08 23:26 BST (UK): After a chat with genjen, she's hit on a little shiny nugget of info that I'm pretty sure belongs to us!!(I'm still miffed that I didn't find it, hours I tell you, I spent hours trawling those bliddy records!! ;)) Thank you again genjen for your find!

New York Passenger List

Adam Bulhary

arrived New York 12th August 1857

aged 22 born about 1835

listed as Irish

Labourer

Arrived aboard the Henry Clay from Liverpool, England

Now whilst I know perfectly well that our Adam isn't Irish, I'm fairly certain that this is our chap. The recording of being Irish is dittoed from the preceding entries and I would suggest not the first time this error/assumption has been made about a Scot, especially when he's travelling with a lot of Irish and English passengers.

What are your thoughts on this??

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Tuesday 20 May 08 23:33 BST (UK): Incidentally, I've checked LDS and can't find any entries under Bulhary and variations, and nothing so it's not a 'popular' Irish name.

While I'm on the subject, I was looking through Rootschat earlier when I was at work and came across a great link. It had a search function that linked in to LDS, but what I liked was the fact that it was searchable by christian name and county - anyone know offhand what site it was, or do I need to trawl the site again? (I did email the link to myself from work, but it hasn't arrived at home yet ::))

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Wednesday 21 May 08 00:34 BST (UK): Hi Lass

I think it will be this site
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers.htm

Ohhh! More exciting news ;D Adam does look good on it! I'm miffed too as I looked till I was crosseyed as well ::) ::) but well done gengen! ;D ;D

On the subject of passage to Chile - I've been pondering this one, as there were many ways to get to Chile, one being thru the Strait. But I think at that time, many ships would have gone round the Horn - a treacherous journery - the waters around the Falklands for example are liittered with shipwrecks of those that did not make it, and the Falklands was also a key place for ships to put in for repair, salvage etc. If they came round the Horn or thru the Strait, they could have disembarked in Punta Arenas.

Other ships came the other way, from the antipodes to Valparaiso Santiago, Concepcion, often stopping in the Antipodes on the way. Then then there is the option of going into Uruguay or Argentina and going overland to Chile.

I've been thinking, David Snr, going by his occupation , he could have been recruited for the specific job in Chile - perhaps he answered an advertisment....many English and Scottish tradesman answered these calls - for skilled trades and for shepherding to South America. It may be an angle to follow, to try and acertain which part of the rail line he or his osn worked on, and from there to find the company, their agents and the ships they chartered to bring their crews in on? Also, chances are his was not the only family who came on the same ship at the same time for the same job. If you can't find the BALHARRY's, you might just be able to find another family - whose family has put a genealogy on the web. Because the key to finding them at their earliest in Chile is to locate the place they would have lived and then the church they would have had their children baptised in - ie: Benjamin circa 1849?

https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Chile_Church_Records?title=Special:Userlogin&type=signup&returnto=Chile_Church_Records

Interesting links for Rail:
http://www.tramz.com/cl/tto/0Ma.html
http://www.tramz.com/cl/tto/b.html

Cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 21 May 08 02:53 BST (UK): 1. Great great find!

2. You can search the IGI on FamilySearch by given name and country.

For instance, you can do searches for
- given name Adam, region British Isles, country Scotland, county Angus
- given name Adam, region South America, country Chile
In such searches, you can even specify an event, and a time period.

However, if you want to tick exact spelling for the given name, then all you can specify is the region.

3. When, a while ago, I quoted a reference to Valparaiso often being a port on the way from England to San Francisco, I thought of ships going down across the Atlantic, rounding the Horn (though I guess they might have gone through the Straits of Magellan) and then up the West coast of the Americas. But, as AMBLY says, there were many ways someone from the UK could have travelled to Chile.

It's great the way things keep turning up!

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Wednesday 21 May 08 14:01 BST (UK): ;D

I'm glad we appear to have traced Adam, I was concerned as to what had happened to him after Jean's death in 1845. Now I wonder if his arrival in New York was independent, or whether he was on his way back to his family in Chile.....

Thanks Ambly for those great links, looks like there's a lot of info on the rail companies there so hopefully following them might lead to some fresh information. I'm willing to bet you're right about David snr being recruited specifically for working on the railway, and since he would appear to have been in England for a few years before moving on to Chile, I dare say it's even more viable.

JAP, I find I can't search on Family Search using first name and county/town without being asked to put in the fathers/mothers name. AMBLY that seems a good search link, but it's not the one I was using!! I'll trawl and let you know, just to share, when I find it.

I dare say there's a variety of different ways for the family to get to Chile, I'd just been thinking along the lines of checking American port records for them on the assumption that they'd have had to stop in the US on route, but perhaps not. AMBLY the family are now in the Valparaiso/Concepcion/Santiago area of Chile so if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that's where they may have come in to the country in the first place. Aren't guesses wonderful things?? ;D

I do wish I'd get some more information through from Chile, but patience was never my strong point, maybe a timely update from me will give them a wee push ;)

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Wednesday 21 May 08 14:40 BST (UK): Thought I'd share - the link I was using was

http://www.originsnetwork.com/scotsorigins/SOSearchBC.aspx

The only reason I find this handy, is that with all the variations in spelling of the surname, it's easier for me to search using the first name and go through all the counties/districts. That way I don't need to keep track of all the variations I've check for each individual county and district!! Saves me a lot of time and a quick scan over the resulting IGI records is much quicker and easier for me. ;D
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Wednesday 21 May 08 19:22 BST (UK): Hi Lass

Ahhh!! Thanks for that link- I had forgotten entirely about that one and not used it for years - you're right it's very handy, have bookmarked it ;D

The one I gave, I use to establish batch numbers of the parish I want. Then I go to the IGI site seperately and put in that batch number, with the area (Scotland), Then one can search the same way - ie: search for all David's born to parents named David and Margaret, all children with parents named David & Margaret etc etc. I guess at the end of the day, both are doing the same thing... but I like your one better now;D

I wondered if they moved away from Angus after their marriage, perhaps for work reasons - I thought Perthshire may also be a place to look for the births of Adam (regardless of he's theirs or not) and David.....

Do you already have this link?
http://www.bisa.btinternet.co.uk/mainbody.htm

Cheers ;D
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Wednesday 21 May 08 19:50 BST (UK): OH MY GOSH
LASS ----~~SIT DOWN~~ STAND UP before you go here: (all the better for dancing!)

http://www.geocities.com/heartland/Park/7572/geor1842.txt

I just googled Adam Balhary - no place no quotes, just that AND LOOK WHAT I FOUND

BINGO! Passenger List. 1842. God loves a Googler. The Answer to the Universe is in Google.

WOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AMBLY is dancin' , is dancin. is dancin' ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Wednesday 21 May 08 22:01 BST (UK): OH MY GOD, AMBLY I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I just cannot BELIEVE that we've been doing all this checking through records, and low and behold, a simple google search delivers the goods!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ;D ;D ;D

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ;D ;D ;D

I really can't thank you enough AMBLY, you've made my day, week, month, YEAR!!!

I'm so excited, I need to go and dance around the house!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

And again, WOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

love and kisses and hugs and dance, dance, dance

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Thursday 22 May 08 00:59 BST (UK): AMBLY, Another absolutely brilliant find. Congratulations!!

Just for completeness (though this pales into utter insignificance alongside AMBLY's find :'( ) ...

Quote from: Lass on Wednesday 21 May 08 14:01 BST (UK)
;D
...
JAP, I find I can't search on Family Search using first name and county/town without being asked to put in the fathers/mothers name. ...
Lass, Would I lie to you? ;D
Truly, you can search just as I described.
Were you perhaps trying the "All Resources" search on FamilySearch? That doesn't work - one can search there by surname only plus country etc but not by given name only.

Give it another go but in the IGI.

As I mentioned above (emphasis added):
"2. You can search the IGI on FamilySearch by given name and country.

For instance, you can do searches for
- given name Adam, region British Isles, country Scotland, county Angus
- given name Adam, region South America, country Chile
In such searches, you can even specify an event, and a time period.

However, if you want to tick exact spelling for the given name, then all you can specify is the region."

Incidentally, 'given name only' searches can also be carried out in the Census, US SSDI, and Vital Records Index sections of FamilySearch.

Cheers,

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Thursday 22 May 08 12:14 BST (UK): JAP

Thanks for clarifying that, I think I may well have been using the All Resources search at the time ::) I'll blame it on the excitement ;D Please be assured that everything you do to help me is seriously appreciated - the great finds are fabulous and I'm forever indebted to AMBLY but this is good, it means I can trawl through the records in a much easier fashion (for me anyhow) and when that helps me find some missing pieces, I'll have you to thank JAP!

Now I've had time to calm down slightly (and I mean only slightly!!) I notice that baby Margaret isn't with the family and may have died before they left, which is such a shame. However, that then does then suggest that my Chilean cousins 'David arrived with his sister' assertion points to Jane as being the elusive sister. The jigsaw is coming together!

I haven't had any communication at all with Chile for a while now, but I'm in the middle of an update email to them to confirm the details AMBLY has turned up.

For what it's worth, I tried a google search on Adam and came up with zip (other than this thread!!!) ....... are you in NZ AMBLY, is this why you got a hit?

I'm still grinning from ear to ear, I'm sure my work mates wonder what I've been up to ;)

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: JAP on Thursday 22 May 08 14:16 BST (UK): Googling from Aus for
Adam + Balhary
(as AMBLY said - no quotes)
gets two RootsChat hits and then the passenger list is the third hit.

I don't know anything about NZ records but I wonder whether there are any BDM or other records of the family in NZ?
Next instalment?

JAP
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Friday 23 May 08 01:32 BST (UK): Hi Lass and JAP

Glad you were happy with the news Lass, I consider myself now very well hugged ;D ;D What would we do without Google! I'm still grinning too - were you at work or at home when you read that passenger list?
Now the excitement has died down a bit ;D I guess there are a new bundle of what if's to deal with.....

Did the family who arrived in NZ 1842 stay in NZ or pretty quickly set out for Chile?
Was Chile always their destination or did that move come later?
Did they all go to Chile! If Ben was born there in 1849-ish, only his mother had to have been there for the event.
If they did all go to Chile, did they all stay there after the 'job' was done? (not forgetting a sister supposedly married there and then went to France). If they left - where to next?

The present day Chilean family seem so certain that only David and sister arrived abt 1850. We have Ben supposedly born there abt 1849. This leaves 2 siblings (Adam, Ben), 2 parents and approx 7 years missing from their family knowledge.

For the benefit of the topic (and any more random Googlers out there):
Travelling in Steerage, David BALHARY 32, Carpenter, his wife Margaret 31 and their children: Adam 8, David 6 and Jane 3 - all arrived in Nelson ( north west tip South Island) New Zealand on 12 Dec 1842 on the barque "George Fyfe".
The ship had sailed from Gravesend, Kent on 16 Jun 1842, arrived in Wellington NZ (southern tip North Island) on 7 Nov 1842 before going on to Nelson.
The only reported death on the journey was of a boy named RHODES.

I am in NZ - but none of my ancestry is so I've never used the BMD's here etc. Perhaps a message ont the NZ Emigrants board might help - some wonderful kiwis on there with a lot of knowledge & resources!

The BALHARY's were not listed (as other's were) as disembarking in Wellington.
Nelson is Sth West across the Strait between NI and SI NZ - the journey could be rough and dangerous if the weather was bad - but it wouldn't have taken anywhere a near a month to make the crossing. So they were in Wellington for approx 3 weeks to a month. Would they have been on the ship or in lodgings during that time? Could Margaret have died in Wellington and not been included in the list of passengers who died on the ship - I suppose it might depend on when that actual list was compiled and how the compiler decided to include a child who may have got on board in UK, landed in Wellington but did not re-embark for the leg to Nelson?

They do appear on the Early Settlers Database:
http://www.ncc.govt.nz/net/settlers/search.aspx
But this may be because it is only assumed they did actually settle here?

Have also tried Papers Past:
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast

Can't see a death for Margaret in England - unless the surname is badly misread/written. If she died in the UK, perhaps it was in Scotland if her parents went back up to collect Adam from Newtyle?

I think as JAP suggested earlier, it may be worth trying to see if there are records of Ben's admission to the asylum? What was his cause of death, I wonder? Someone knew enough to (supposedly) correctly state Ben's parents details - including his mother's MS and his father's occupation - on his death cert. WHo provided that info? Was Ben well enough to provide it himself on admission? (sadly in those day's 'simply' being an epileptic (or a mother with Post-Natal Depression!) was enough to have one committed to a Lunatic Asylum). Maybe the record might state an address or more precise location of his parents or NOK?

This is turning into another novel, oops!
But Lass, before I go unexessarily pasting up a wall of links and sites on him - are you aware of the David BALHARRY who was in NZ from at least abt 1865 until his death in 1889? He was in West Otago at one stage I think, Hokitika and then from abt 1868 was in Napier (Hawkes Bay). From what I can gather, there were descendants of Peter Fenton BALHARRY in the Napier area, which I think are in your line? Maybe David was one of them, and you already have him sorted, so to speak?

Also there is another BALHARRY detective out there, who is also interested in the Chilean line - are you aware of this one:
http://groups.msn.com/scottishancestors2/test2.msnw?action=view_list&row=9&viewtype=2&sortstring

Cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Friday 23 May 08 11:17 BST (UK): Hi ;D

I'm at work and stopped in for a quick peek, I think I might have to wait until tonight to digest most of that post AMBLY ;) I was, thankfully (!) at home when I read your magnificent find post - my kids are used to seeing me whooping and dancing around the house for no apparent reason, so I didn't have too much explaining to do!! I did explain mind you, and of course was greeted with non-interested grunts, but hey, maybe in years to come they'll see the light!!! ;D

Taking a look at some NZ genealogy sites, I came across this link from Ancestry, which shows some more detail on the passenger list, including the fact that David snr was the ships constable! Unfortunately the disembarking details are incomplete but given that they appear on the Early Settlers database one must assume they did indeed land in Nelson.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/GeorgeFife.htm

I too had a look to see if I could find Margaret's death, but must confess I didn't consider that could have been in Scotland, it didn't really occur to me that they would have gone back to collect Adam, I presumed he would have been sent down to join them, but that's a very valid point I will look into. As is checking Benjamin's admittance to the asylum. I'm thinking out loud again, but I'm wondering if perhaps David and Margaret returned to Scotland with Benjamin and possibly Adam, leaving David and Jane behind in Chile. Random thoughts as I say, but it would at least go some way to explain why the cousins never knew anything about any of the rest of the family ever having been in the country, whether it was just David snr, or Margaret or all of them.

I'll certainly post for some help in the NZ/Aus threads and see if anything else can be turned up. I am aware of Peter Fenton Balharry's descendants, although from memory, I think they all ended up in Australia, which is now rich with Balharrys! He is of my line, the brother of my great, great grandfather. I also know the fellow Balharry researcher - I have to say she's done loads of work on the tree but as far as I'm aware doesn't have the line to Chile yet, although I haven't spoken with her in a while - she's the bidey-in of a Balharry in Canada who's my 3rd cousin! I got a wealth of information from her when I first starting researching and whilst I totally appreciate everything I got (saved me soooo much time and effort!!) I do like to verify everything I can myself and sift through the odd mistake.

Uh, looks like my quick post is a tad longer than I intended!!! Let's make a pact, no more apologies for long posts!! ;D I'm going to take a closer look at all this when I get home, only another 6 hours or so...... itching ........ ;)

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Friday 23 May 08 12:36 BST (UK): Quote from: AMBLY on Sunday 11 May 08 00:00 BST (UK)
Hi Lass and JAP

I'm thinking there is a strong liklihood that Adam BALHARY age 7 from the 1841, with Jean JAFFREY age 30 is connected? They were at Step Row in Dundee in 1841, both listed as born Angus.

The IGI has just one Jean (Janet) JAFFREY born abt 1811 in Angus.
These are the parents listed and all the children who are on the IGI:
Father: Thomas JAFFREY
Mother: Isobel BRUCE
Children - all christened Newtyle , Angus
James JAFREY chr 15 May 1799
Alexander JAFFREY chr 15 Jun 1800
Margaret JAFFREY chr 5 Sep 1802
Jean JAFFREY chr 5 Apr 1807

It's pretty certain, the IGI family is the one from which the Census Jean springs from.........as follows
http://www.fdca.org.uk/howff.htm
The HOWFF cemetery Dundee database

Has the following entry:
#419 - Jean JAFFRAY age 36, born Newtyle
Buried 16 Jul 1845
Died of Consumption
Her last address was: Step Row, Perth Road
Daughter of the late Thomas JAFFREY, Farmer

The indications are that Jean died unmarried (else the burial record may have been expected to say she was a widow of etc). If this is on the right track - Adam might possibly be Jean's nephew? And Jean's sister Margaret could be the one who married David BALHARRY? And possibly making Adam their firstborn....but not finding anything on him at all apart from this one Census entry.

If the above Margaret JAFFREY is 'our one, then she would have been at least 31 when she married David BALHARRY......

This just popped into my head.

Both David and Margaret show on the 1841 census as 30 years old (not withstanding rounding up/down)

Both David and Margaret are shown on Passenger List of 1842 as 31 years old.

Is it too much to assume that both these records are actually showing the correct age? If they are, then both Margaret and David would have been born abt 1811 and would have been 22 when they married in 1833. JAP pointed out previously that Jean Jaffray has been established as the daughter of Thomas Jaffrey, Farmer on her death certificate, but on Margaret's marriage certificate she is daughter of Thomas Jaffrey, Shoemaker. I didn't really think about it for too long at the time, but it would now appear that JAP is correct in thinking that Jean and Margaret Jaffrey are very likely related, but not as sisters - unless the first Margaret died in childhood and the next daughter was named Margaret too - distinctly possible I know, but I am troubled by the change in father's occupation. Anyhow, just food for thought (as if we didn't have enough to ponder!!)!!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Saturday 24 May 08 23:32 BST (UK): Hi again :)

I've nothing new for you unfortunately, just keeping you up to date on progress, hope you don't mind!

I've spent the last 2 days trawling Scottish IGI records -

I've checked every Scottish birth/baptism IGI record for David, born 1836 +/-5 years

I've checked every Scottish birth/baptism IGI record for Adam, born 1833 +/-5 years

and found nothing..... nada ..... zilch. :(

So I assume either
a) the births/baptisms of these two were never recorded or if they were, the records didn't survive or weren't transcribed to LDS.
b) David and Margaret attended a 'breakaway' church,
c) the boys weren't christened Balharry or Jaffray
d) the boys weren't born in Scotland after all

I believe option 'a' is probably most likely. 'b' doesn't sit with me as David and Margaret's marriage was recorded 1833 and I can't see them changing so suddenly although I guess it's not impossible. Option 'c' I think is unlikely too, the boys were born after David and Margaret's marriage, so I see no reason why they wouldn't have been given either of their surnames. Option 'd' is one I'm going to give consideration to, simply because I think it's possible (not necessarily probable) that they were born elsewhere but determined as Scots because of their parentage. I'm going to leave that be for the moment, and check to see if I can find David senior's birth/baptism to at least figure out where he fits into my tree. Anyhow, your thoughts would be appreciated :)

Hope everyone's having a good weekend ;D

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Saturday 24 May 08 23:33 BST (UK): Edit - double post, sorry!!
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Friday 30 May 08 12:04 BST (UK): Just in case AMBLY and JAP are still interested in ongoing developments - and anyone else following this thread!!

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,307308.0.html
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: AMBLY on Friday 30 May 08 12:25 BST (UK): Hi Lass

Thanks for letting us know ;D I didn't spot the new Kiwi topic, but def. still interested & glad to see you've met some of the great chatters there! Just had a good read, like reading a suspense Novel ::) Lots of very interesting devolopments even though sad to say it's not looking like the hombre we really seek :'(

I can quite understand the Call of the Forest, with having a new & intriguing David BALHARRY to sort out ;D

Cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Tazette on Sunday 06 July 08 23:09 BST (UK): let's not forget about our David Balharry- born ca. 1806 to David Balharry and May (Marjorie) Fle(e)ming) of whom nothing more has been found....
He is the right age to have married Margaret Jaffrey in 1833.
David's nephew, James, went to Australia & raised th original OZ branch there...
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Sunday 06 July 08 23:45 BST (UK): Taz, I'll pm/email you about David and May Fleeming as they worry me slightly. Were you aware that our (assumed) David 1775 was born just under 3 months before a young lady by the name of May Fleeming, in Airlie? It's something that's been bothering me for some time. Anyway, enough, I'll not hijack the thread anymore going off subject, look out for incoming!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Tazette on Sunday 06 July 08 23:49 BST (UK): am thrilled you took this branch on- Lass ;D I had always wondered who Adam was....
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: TORRES 33 on Tuesday 05 August 08 02:59 BST (UK): Related to David Balharry:

I'am chilean. Rosa Balharry Nuñez de la Vega was the mother of my gran mother. She married Florindo Labbe. I've pictures of her.

If you want I can search. I live in Chile.

Regards

Francisco Torres Rodriguez
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Tuesday 05 August 08 09:30 BST (UK): Hello Francisco!

I have been in contact with Maria Jose and Francisca, but it's wonderful to 'meet up' with you! I shall send you a pm.

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Sunday 10 August 08 03:09 BST (UK): I sent you a personal message, Francisco, but I can't send you another as you haven't posted enough and there's a limit set on your account. I've sent you my email address in the personal message so that you can contact me :)

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Tuesday 02 September 08 10:04 BST (UK): *bump*

Trying to contact Francisco by bumping thread, apologies to all!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Sunday 05 October 08 18:30 BST (UK): *bump* apologies again folks, last time I'll do this, trying to get Francisco's attention!!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lell on Saturday 18 October 08 10:38 BST (UK): David Balharry and his family sailed to New Zealand on the GEORGE FYFE, a 460 ton barque. The emigrants embarked at Deptford after breakfast on 13th June 1842 and sailed from Gravesend on 16 Jun 1842, arrived in Wellington on 7 Nov 1842 , then sailed on to Nelson, arriving there on 12 Dec 1842. The passenger list shows that David was a 32 year-old carpenter and the Ships Constable, his wife Margaret was 31 years old (so b ca 1811). With them were their children, 8 year-old Adam, 6 year-old David and 3 year-old Jane. The family were steerage passengers. There were 11 adults in cabins plus 13 adults and 17 children in steerage.

The New Zealand BMD indexes do not have any record of this family so they must have moved on from New Zealand.

David Balharry and Margaret Leffre are thought, by South American descendants, to have arrived in Chile ca 1840-50. It seems likely that they were among the passengers of the George Fyfe who were so dismayed by conditions in Wellington , and by hearing from settlers there that conditions were even worse in Nelson, that they sailed on to Valparaiso in Chili. This outraged some settlers in Nelson as shown in a letter to the editor published in the Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle on 31 December 1842.

“SIR — ‘Save us from our friends’ is an old, but no less true, adage, and it is fully borne out by the conduct of some of the ill-disposed colonists of Port Nicholson, in spreading malicious reports concerning this place among some of the proprietors of land, bound to this place by the George Fyfe, informing them that, if they thought Wellington bad, Nelson was ten times worse, thereby causing them to be so disgusted with New Zealand altogether, that they have either sailed, or are about to sail for Valparaiso immediately.’ The writer considered that Nelson was equal, if not much superior, to Wellington.

Lell
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Saturday 18 October 08 11:19 BST (UK): Hi Lell :D

Thanks for joining this thread! We have gathered as much information as I feel is possible tracing David and his family to Nelson, New Zealand and we obviously know that they made it to Valparaiso - ideally what we need now is some research in Chile that may shed some light on David senior's parents and/or place of birth to establish his ancestry within the Balharry tree.

May I ask if your interest is personal? If so, I would dearly love to hear from you. ;D I have been in contact with several of my chilean 'cousins' but we have not made any further progress.

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lell on Saturday 18 October 08 12:12 BST (UK): My GGG grandparents were James Balharry (1811-1850) and Catherine Dundass (1807 - 1875). I think that this James was the son of David Balharry and May Fleeming from the Grange, baptised in the Airlie parish on 13 Jan 1811. They also had a son David baptised on 17 May 1806 in Longforgan, Perth, Scotland. He MAY have been the David Balharrey who married Margaret Jaffrey on 29 Apr 1832 in Dundee. That's what we're all trying to find out.

James Balharry (1811-1850) and Catherine Dundass (1807 - 1875) had 8 children including my GG grandfather James born ca 1833 in Dundee. He James went to Australia, at the age of 19, from Scotland, arriving in Hobson’s Bay on 31st December 1851. He married Emily Clara Perry on 26 Mar 1863 in Holy Trinity Church, Williamstown, Victoria. My G Grandmother was their fifth child, Mary Frances Balharry, called Minnie.

Lell
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Tazette on Saturday 18 October 08 12:32 BST (UK): Hi Lell!
Thanks for joining this thread! I think I may have been in touch with you once before, although I am not sure. Are you from Blanche & Arthur, or Kathleen & Neville?
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Saturday 18 October 08 17:04 BST (UK): Hi again Lell (and Tazette ;D) !

Great to 'meet' you Lell! I don't have your specific details any further past James and Emily, I have 3 of their children recorded, so I'd love to catch up with you and confirm those if you'd be interested.

My line is John Balharry, brother of your David (who married May Fleming) and it's been quite an exercise expanding out from that. I am ever hopeful that David born 1806 at Longforgan is our Chilean connection, but like the rest of you have been unable to verify this. I have had a lot of contact with some of our Chilean cousins, although nothing recently, and they suggested doing some research at their end, so I provided appropriate LDS batch numbers and Chilean record references. Unfortunately I haven't heard anything further, which was why I was bumping this thread to try to contact Francisco.

Forever hopeful of tracking the elusive Balharrys down!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Saturday 18 October 08 17:08 BST (UK): Doh, I just had one of those lightbulb moments! ::)

I suspect we've been in touch before, via Facebook!! Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you are who I think you are, you may currently be surrounded by mess!!! ;) ;)

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lell on Saturday 18 October 08 21:47 BST (UK): Hi Tazette and Lass

Thanks for your welcome. I haven't used Facebook, Lass. I have had correspondance with you Tazette when I was living in Edinburgh and have been meaning to contact you and other Balharry connections for some time. We returned to NZ two years ago and it's taken time to get back to my own genealogy.

My grandmother was Blanche Casement, daughter of Charles Casement and Mary Frances Balharry. Their other child, Kathleen married Neville but they had no children.

Lell
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Saturday 18 October 08 22:21 BST (UK): Ooops, wrong wattage in my bulb it would appear!! ::) ;D

I'll pm you Lell!

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Tazette on Saturday 18 October 08 22:55 BST (UK): Quote from: Lell on Saturday 18 October 08 21:47 BST (UK)

I have had correspondance with you Tazette when I was living in Edinburgh and have been meaning to contact you and other Balharry connections for some time. We returned to NZ two years ago and it's taken time to get back to my own genealogy.

Ah yes- Lell- I have been wondering about you- so nice to see you're back at it. My main email address has changed- though my tazette one is still the same. I'll try to private message you my main email address as well.
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: flst on Wednesday 29 October 08 19:12 GMT (UK): Hi,I've iust read through these 6 pages & am really interested to know if you'd any success with Benjamin's admission records to the Lunatic Asylum. One of my ancestors was in an asylum & it's great what information you can glean from the records.
Regards,
flst
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lell on Thursday 30 October 08 03:04 GMT (UK): Good advice from flst.

If someone in Scotland can visit Dundee, you could find out about Benjamin Balharry who died on 31 May 1870 at the Lunatic Asylum, Sunnyside, in the parish of Montrose. His death registration showed he was a 21 year-old clerk, single, the son of David Balharry and Margaret Jaffrey.

Using a google search I just discovered that the Admission Registers and other material for the Sunnyside Lunatic Asylum in Montrose are in the Dundee University Archives.
DUA website web: www.dundee.ac.uk/archives

The archives are open, free of charge, to members of the public and hold extensive collections of interest to a wide range of researchers. Areas covered include education, religion, social and business history, medicine and health, and local and family history.

It is advisable to phone to make an appointment before you visit. When visiting the Archives for the first time, you must take proof of identification. Then they issue you with a reader’s card. Staff are happy to help with any queries you may have.

Information for visiting, including how to find them and opening hours:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/archives/geninfo.htm

Archive Services,
University of Dundee,
Nethergate,
Dundee DD1 4HN

tel: +44 (0) 1382 384095
fax: +44 (0) 1382 385523

email:archives@dundee.ac.uk

I hope someone can follow up this lead.
Lell
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Lass on Monday 03 November 08 18:46 GMT (UK): Hi flst and Lell

I have intended to look into Benjamin's asylum records since connecting his death certificate with this puzzle (some time ago now!) but just haven't had the chance to pop up to Dundee. I hope to do so in the not too distant future as the records may well hold a key...

I make no promises about when I'll get there, but I will at some point, and I'll keep you all informed. ;D

Lass x
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: David Balharry on Tuesday 10 July 18 23:32 BST (UK): Hello. Are there still folk on here interested in Balharry? Ross my son is in Chile just now and met up with people who have Balharry history and I promised to dig out what I can by way of a family tree.

My father had a box file of info which Ive used to create a tree in MacFamilyTree which now goes back to late 1600's along our line. I think I have the connection to Chile as being through a David Balharry born 1806. Who was associated with a Mrs Leffre possible maiden name Goffrey.

None of this is primary information simply records compiled by others.

Anyway it prompted me to do some digging into the Balharry's around the late 1600's to see how far back records knowledge existed. Based on that there seems to have been a number of families within 9 miles of Balharry house at this time (Newtyle, Coupar Angus, Glamis, Collace, Glen Isla, Airlie). Our line connect in here somewhere and I wondered if anyone else has tried to make connections this far back?

In hope

David
Title: Re: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile
Post by: Robert Beharie on Saturday 20 March 21 11:56 GMT (UK): Hi David,
I have been working on a project separating the families mainly within the Dundee area which share or were written down as a derivative of Balhary. I have a reference to Balhary in Chile on cell BA124 on the spreadsheet which can be found on my business website at: http://www.imaginehowe.co.uk/FamilyHistoryDocs/ filename: Census Analysis_20210320.xls. Note: Please don't rely on any family links shown prior to 1833 as correct as this is still a work in progress and any links prior to the start of census recording is based on the age of the people and marriage records. It provides most family members names which will give you a good start to hopefully identify your family line.
I am still trying to find hard evidence of my families link with either John Baharry b1738 or James Balharry b1716.

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