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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Helen1955 on Saturday 10 May 08 07:51 BST (UK)
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The family story is that ..........
Maria had several children by John Charles before they married in 1886. All boys they were registered with Maria's maiden name, Croxall. When she married John Charles they appear to have taken his surname, Cross (as per 1891 and 1901 census) and at least 2 of the boys used Cross as their surname when they married.
My queries are these .......
Today, in the same circumstances, I am sure that some legal process would have to be gone through to change a childs surname. Was this the case in the 1880's?
If there would have been a legal process, can I access those records and where?
Did they have to produce a birth certificate when they married (early 1900's)?
Oh, and Maria and John Charles appear to have had a boy, Walter born the same year they got married but I can't find his birth registered (at the moment). Do you think they forgot to register him in the excitement of getting married?
Thanks for reading this
Helen
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Hi Helen :)
From other posts on here, I have gathered that you could change your name if you wished, without going through a formal process. I am not sure where you would find the records if they HAD gone through a formal process.
I also believe that by 1886 there were significant penalties for not registering a birth. So I am not sure why you couldn't find the registration.
Sorry I'm not more help. Hopefully someone with more info will post.
MarieC
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There is a birth in Walsall Staffordshire for a Walter Edward Croxall Dec 1885 - is this a possible for your Walter - it fits the age on the 1891 census and is before the marriage
Trish
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Under English common law, a person may take a new surname, perfectly legally, without drawing up any formal record, provided that such action is not undertaken for the purpose of fraud of avoidance of obligation, etc. Various means of recording a change of name have been developed over time, but most of them were voluntary, and it is impossible to say what percentage of name-changers used them. Many people who changed their name did not wish to draw attention to the fact. For example, in an age of difficult divorce, some people took their new partner's name to allow them the appearance of marriage, and any children the appearance of legitimacy. From the number of enquiries The National Archives gets, it is clear that very often a proof of change of name either never existed or no longer exists.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=176
Unless the bride or groom appeared to be under the age of consent they were not asked for proof of their age or identity. That is what banns are meant to be for. Banns are a public announcement of a couple's intention to marry and gives an opportunity for anyone knowing any just reason or due cause why they should not be married to forbid the banns i.e. object to the proposed marriage.
Stan
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Hi Helen :)
I also believe that by 1886 there were significant penalties for not registering a birth.
MarieC
The Births and Deaths Registration Act of 1874 made such failure punishable by a fine of £2.00.
Stan
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Thanks Stan! I hoped you would come through with the facts, and will take note of them. You should be declared a Rootschat living treasure! :)
MarieC
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Well thank you all for your help and advise, especially Stan.
I have sent for the birth Cert for Walter Edward Croxall born Walsall 1885 although I don't think it is the right one if only because all the other children were born Redditch and registered in Bromsgrove.
As for penalties for not registering a birth, at least 2 of my ancestors were registered but incorrectly, my Nan always celebrated both of her birthdays, the day she was born on and the date her birth certificate says she was born on. Her father lied 'cos he was several days out side the cut off period but it always amused Nan who said it made her like the Queen!
My other Nan has several inaccuracies on her birth cartificate due to her mother trying to cover up her illegitimacy. It took me the best part of 6 months to work that one out!
Still, its the solving of the puzzle that make Family History so much fun!
Thanks again
Helen
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Unfortunately I have been proved right.
The birth certificate for Walter Croxall born 1885 and registered in Walshall is not the one I was looking for.
So, if anyone has any ideas I am still searching for a Walter born abt 1886 in Redditch (registration districh Bromsgrove) who may have the surname CROXALL or CROSS depending on whether he was born before his parents married or after.
Still, all is not lost, I have been told that my Croxall's did originate in Staffordshire/Derbyshire so maybe I have a connection with the Walter who's birth certificate arrived today.
Helen
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I do hope you find the connection - I hate someone buying a wrong certificate on my suggestion as much as I hate buying one myself. It will be so nice if/when they complete the index with all the mother's maiden names - I hope I live to see it :(
Trish
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Still, all is not lost, I have been told that my Croxall's did originate in Staffordshire/Derbyshire so maybe I have a connection with the Walter who's birth certificate arrived today.
I once sent off for a birth certificate and discovered it wasn't the one I wanted. However many months later I discovered that the father of the child was indeed related to my branch.
He turned out to be a brother I never knew existed. So don't despair Helen, you may have opened a branch line.
Jean
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Oh Jean don't I know it!
Last year after searching for my maternal Grandmother's birth records I sent off for the only certificate that seemed to fit only to find when it arrived that all the details on it; fathers name, maiden name etc was wrong.
So, I put it away and then 8 months later, after approaching the same birth from a different angle I realised it had been my Grandmother's certificate all along. Her mother, my Great Grandmother had not been married to the man my Grandmother thought was her father when my Grandmother was born!
To cover up my Grandmother's illegitimacy her Mother had given her Fathers name instead of the real Fathers and her Mother's maiden name as her own.
In any case although £7 for a certificate is a lot of money to "waste" I feel that if it stops me wasting my valuable time researching the wrong line then it is no waste at all.
I have just realised you posted your message at 5.37am looks like you not wasting anytime sleeping!!
Helen
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Hello again Helen
Have been in touch with you before due to our shared Croxall Connection (William Croxall and Elizabeth Scattergood) Have only just come across this thread today.
I have just had a look for a birth registration for Walter but was also unable to find this. I tried Croxall and Cross which I'm sure you also tried. I know that Croxall was regularly mis-spelled.
It's possible that Walter's birth registration may have been difficult to read or transcribed incorrectly. I have had this happen before. It took me such a long time to find my grandfather's birth certificate. Eventually I found him on freebmd with the final 2 letters of his surname missing, so I assume this part of his name must have been unreadable on the original registration document.
Hope you are making progress now that you have located the correct Croxalls
Angela
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Hi Angela
I haven't done much family history research recently, we have been away on holiday.
I am off to Chard next weekend to do a bit on Charles Cross, father of John Charles Cross and therefore grandfather of Walter and his siblings.
Census returns indicate Charles Cross came from the Chard/Winsham area and I am trying to work out why an Ag Lab and son of a small farmer should become an engineer in Redditch.
Chard has links to early powered flight, a local landowner set up a workshop to make airplanes. It was quite important in the area so I want to access the archives and see if I can find any record of Charles.
Keep your fingers crossed, I'll let you know how I get on.
Helen
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In the 1891 census of St Stephen's Parish. Redditch at
8 Prospect Road I have found the following family. I do hope this is the one you seek
Baby Cross age 1/12 Daur
John Charles Cross Head age 33 Machinist
Maria Cross Wife age 32
Henry son age 13 Scholar
Charles Edward son age 11 Scholar
Fred son age 9 Scholar
Frank son age 7 Scholar
WALTER son age 5 Scholar
Effie daur age 2
All born Redditch Worcestershire
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Sorry, I now realize that you must have the 1891 census return . I note that the father John Charles is a Machinist which is not a skilled job of work and many people changed their occupations.
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i have a miles stable in my family history born 1806 on igi, it show him as stable, in 1841 census as Myles stable, and in 1851 as Myles stables he had me pulling my hair out, (if i had any lol) what i think happened very few could read or write, even those who wrote the census in some cases only had the barest of education specially in the rural districts, miles became Myles and stable became stables (which you would agree is a easy mistake to make) so his kin went with the name stables surnames changes over the years automatically. so i wouldnt worry to much ::)
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Thanks for that,
John Carles was listed as a machinist but we know his father Charles Cross was an engineer that owned a factory in Redditch, making amongst other things, harpoons. John Charles, the eldest son also trained as an engineer in some records but not as you say on the census.
As to the children of John Charles I have all the births of his children both before he married and after, a total of 11 in all, except Walter who's date of birth is given as 1886 the year his parents married.
What I and several other roots chatters are trying to find is Walters Birth cert.
Helen
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He may have been born before the wedding and registered under another surname, grandmother's maiden name etc. It
is also possible that he was "adopted/fostered " by your family and was actually another family's child. This happened in my research, I had my grandmother handwritten family tree with the date of birth of her sister-in-law. But could not find a birth for her or any child by that name in that year and those either side.
It took three years to prove Annie Clarke b 1894 in Shelford was in fact Annie Crane born 1894 Shelford. Tracing her death under her second husband's surname, confirmed she had married the man we had for the her husband on the hand written tree, and both marriage certificates and her death certificate gave her maiden name as Crane!!!
She grew up with the Clarke family as their eldest daughter she too was born the year that the Couple married. She was my father's Aunty Annie!!!!!
Keep looking
Robyn in Australia
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Well, all the children born before they married were registered with the surname Croxall and all those after with the surname Cross.
Except Walter! and although I have searched through all the indexes on Ancestory and indeed the FHC when it was open, I cannot find him listed as either Croxall or Cross and what is more I can't find any name that comes even close. That includes buying certificates for any that I thought likely.
It looks like Walter Croxall/ Cross born 1886 is going to be my brickwall. So, he can go on the backburner for now as he is a sibling of my great grandfather and I will concentrate on other family members.
Helen
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well Ellen hes not going any where you can always dig him up later ;D once they decide to bury :P them selfs, there hard to find. its like someone as spirited away there records ;) they some times pop up like a skeleton in a cupboard when you least expect it
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It might be worth taking a look at
It is also possible that he was "adopted/fostered " by your family and was actually another family's child.
It might be worth having a look at any young unmarried female siblings of Maria's - it may be that her 'son' Walter was her nephew perhaps ...... my great grandmother had several children. This increased by one when she officially adopted her daughters' daughter. If I recall correctly, the child's surname was that of the absent father, rather than the unmarried name of her mother. Just a thought, this sort of thing keeps us guessing :D
Lass x
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I have to agrre that it is necessary to work outside the square when you come to a dead end.
One fellow researcher thought he had dotted all his "i"s and crossed all his "t"s documenting his grand parents family, their lives, children etc, the whole catastrophe. Many years of work documenting events, photographing graves etc. He eventually published his results and distributed them among his family.
Several years later, his son travelled from Australia to the village that the family had emigrated from to photogrph the family graves for his father. He found his greatgrandparents grave and all the details matched the information gathered years before EXCEPT:
There was ONE EXTRA CHILD listed in the names of the children!!!!!!!
Definintely not recorded in parish records ore GRO!!! He is still trying to work out where this EXTRA came from and what happened to him.
Strange things happen.
regards
Robyn in Australia
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Hi helen1955
Could you please help with some details on all of Maria's children. I read in your post you have the info on all 11 but not Walter. I know my Frank was born in 1885 http://www.ritter.demon.co.uk/Genealogy/wga18.html#I3674