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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: Ebor337 on Tuesday 20 May 08 18:43 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I've just discovered my first ancestor from Notts and so this is my first post on the Notts boards!!!
My great great grandfather William Moody Lambert was born in Norwell c1859 (I am buying birth certifcate asap), he lived there until probably 1886 when he and his family moved to Tockwith, Yorkshire, which has been the base of my family home for the last 100 years.
Anyway, on the 1881 census, William is down as Publican on Gander Hill.
Just wondering Which this pub would be and if it is still there or, would William be just living on Gander Hill and be a publican somewhere else? (seems unlikely?)
Also, where is Gander Hill? Cant seem to find it on any maps?
Sorry this post is a bit vague, but as i mentioned, this is the first time I have come across a Notts ancestor! I will be posting up lots of other questiosn no doubt in the future! :)
Many thanks,
Kindest Regards,
Lee
P.s. Census return which details the above can be found; Class RG11 - Piece 3372 - Folio 9 - Page 12
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Hi Lee,
Off hand I dont know where Ganders Hill is- the census suggests between "Middle Street" and "Top Town", ie in the middle of the old village. I live very near Norwell, and think there is only one pub now. But if its any use I will take a trip-maybe tomorrow if I have time, and try to find it for you. I notice he is with his grandfather Robert in 1861/71-not at a pub. Would it be any use to you if I have a look on the ground??
Sally
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The pub is The Ploughhttp://www.newarkcamra.org.uk/pubguide/pubs/plough_n.htm If Norwell was anything like Eakring - fairly close by it had a number of pubs in the 19th cent. that have disappeared now.
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There is a "Gander Hill Cottage" in Bathley Lane, Norwell (Yahoo)
Eric
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Thanks veyr much for your replies. :)
The pub is The Ploughhttp://www.newarkcamra.org.uk/pubguide/pubs/plough_n.htm If Norwell was anything like Eakring - fairly close by it had a number of pubs in the 19th cent. that have disappeared now.
Thanks for that link - I couldnt find one on Google. Thats such a shame about the closure of pubs, would you happen to know if there is a pub directory or something for Nottinghamshire?
Hi Lee,
Off hand I dont know where Ganders Hill is- the census suggests between "Middle Street" and "Top Town", ie in the middle of the old village. I live very near Norwell, and think there is only one pub now. But if its any use I will take a trip-maybe tomorrow if I have time, and try to find it for you. I notice he is with his grandfather Robert in 1861/71-not at a pub. Would it be any use to you if I have a look on the ground??
Sally
Sally, that is a remarkable gesture, thank you, very much appreciated. If what Jaywit says above is true, The Plough may not even be the correct pub so I would hate you to waste your shoe soles on me!
Thanks again though, very much. :)
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LDT Have you looked at William's parentage? It looks like he was the son of Mary Lambert who appears not to have married. This maybe having Moody as a second christian name give a clue to his father ( you will have to wait till you get his birth cert. to see) but if his father was a Moody from that neck of the woods we are probably ( through my late husband) related ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Lee,
Have a look at this for 1881 and see if it helps :)
www.1881pubs.com
Sue
Added In search i typed in Norwell ( for town)
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LDT Have you looked at William's parentage? It looks like he was the son of Mary Lambert who appears not to have married. This maybe having Moody as a second christian name give a clue to his father ( you will have to wait till you get his birth cert. to see) but if his father was a Moody from that neck of the woods we are probably ( through my late husband) related ;D ;D ;D
I havent got as far back as the parents yet - I am very (very!) early in my research of the 'Lamberts'! --- but watch this space!!!!
I think you coudl be right with the link though - 'Moody' seems a peculiar middle name????
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Well if you need any Notts PR's there are people on here with access to them, and BTW there are still Lamberts in Newark, don't know if they are related to you. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Lee,
Have a look at this for 1881 and see if it helps :)
http://www.1881pubs.com/results.asp
Sue
Many thanks for this - great site - it appears there are 2 publicans or innkeepers listed in the 1881 census in Norwell (There is another in the Norwell Woodhouse) I suppose I have a 50/50 chance that William Lambert was the publican of the Plough that still stands today!
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just to add- I had a quick look at a couple of directories- in Norwell 1876 only the Plough is named as a pub, but in 1886 (I think) Whites has 2 beerhouses. He was likely to be a tenant publican -it may have been the Plough- but if it was a simple beerhouse, it may just have been a cottage (literally) industry out of the front room. I believe someone who lived in my house mid 19th did just that!. So not a pub closure as such. Anyway- the offer is still there, and I could have a quick look in the churchyard if you like.
Sally
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Anyway- the offer is still there, and I could have a quick look in the churchyard if you like.
Sally
Well if you're sure you don't mind that woudl be absolutely fantastic. No rush of course. Thanks again.
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Well if you need any Notts PR's there are people on here with access to them, and BTW there are still Lamberts in Newark, don't know if they are related to you. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Many thanks for your advice Jaywit. :)
Having trouble finding the birth cert for William Moody .... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. EDIT - i take that back - i've got him!!! :)
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William Moody Lambert
1858 Jul-Sep
Southwell District
Vol 7b page 257
Sally
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William Moody Lambert
1858 Jul-Sep
Southwell District
Vol 7b page 257
Sally
Thanks Sally, think we got him at the same time!
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Hi again,
Sorry i did not manage to get to Norwell earlier in the week-something came up!- But have been now.
I had a thorough look in the churchyard.There are a few badly eroded gravestones that were illeg, and an area of obviously cleared graves. Sorry- there were no Lamberts, or Moody or Leather stones. You may have more luck at Ossington.
As for pubs-- now only the plough remains. It is in the middle of the village, on the main street, and opp Bathley Road. I had a look at the Nat Arch site, and found a reference to 3 pubs in Norwell originally. From a doc dated 1823 The Plough, then tenant Thomas Bamford. from 1822 there was a ref to THE BLACK HORSE, Tennant Joseph Curtis ( loads of Curtis graves at the church). and from 1912, a bazaar ELEPHANT AND CASTLE.
I asked around, and two lovely people at the village store confirmed Norwell did used to have 3 pubs,
a local lad said he thought the Elephant was at the Newark end of the village near the church, and the Black Horse was opposite the Plough- making it on Bathley Road (or Lane?). He said he couldn't remember them, it was just what he knew of the village history. There is also a Black Horse Farm, the out buildings of which are converted to the village stores-- the owner said she did not think it was ever a pub.-and it is further along the main street towards the church.
Gander(s) Hill--this appears to be the hill just outside Norwell along Bathley Road. I was told that the locals refer to a row of 3 cottages on Bathley road as Gander Hill.These were derelict farm cottages until being rebuilt in 1990s apparently. So Bathley Road could be what you are looking for--and therefore your pub could have been the old Black Horse.
Sorry cant be of more help
Sally
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Wow, thanks so much Sally,
Sorry cant be of more help
You've been an amazing help!!!
Thanks.
Lee
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Have you looked at the 1861 & 1871 censuses?
William M Lambert & his grandparents and presumably mother and siblings in Gander Hill in 1861.
Eric
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Hi Eric,
Yes, i have seen that, just trying to piece them all together at the moment and write notes on them - helps me pin down theit 'unit'.
:)
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LDT Have you looked at William's parentage? It looks like he was the son of Mary Lambert who appears not to have married. This maybe having Moody as a second christian name give a clue to his father ( you will have to wait till you get his birth cert. to see) but if his father was a Moody from that neck of the woods we are probably ( through my late husband) related ;D ;D ;D
Just got the birth certificate back, and as you suspected he was the son of Mary Lambert. The name and occupation of the father are both left blank so this obvioulsy means illegitamacy.
How on earth do i find the father?!
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LDT Have you looked at William's parentage? It looks like he was the son of Mary Lambert who appears not to have married. This maybe having Moody as a second christian name give a clue to his father ( you will have to wait till you get his birth cert. to see) but if his father was a Moody from that neck of the woods we are probably ( through my late husband) related ;D ;D ;D
Cool, just found a George Moody living in Ossington (which is very close to Norwell as Sally has said earlier). Born c1926 and lodging as a farm labourer. This could be him I suppose but is it ever possible to accurately trace an illegitamte child?
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Hi Lee,
I will send a longer reply when I have time, but, thought I would let you know that I have found a MATTHEW MOODY age 21, labourer in Brickfield, born Gainsborough Lincs, in NORWELL census,1851.
Before you assume that William's father was a Moody, (which is a good assumption I think) you may like to make sure that Moody is not a name from the maternal side of the Lamberts. There are a lot of Moodys in this bit of Notts- mainly Laxton, Kneesall.
Sally
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Cool, just found a George Moody living in Ossington (which is very close to Norwell as Sally has said earlier). Born c1926 and lodging as a farm labourer. This could be him I suppose but is it ever possible to accurately trace an illegitamte child?
Hi Lee,
I will send a longer reply when I have time, but, thought I would let you know that I have found a MATTHEW MOODY age 21, labourer in Brickfield, born Gainsborough Lincs, in NORWELL census,1851.
Before you assume that William's father was a Moody, (which is a good assumption I think) you may like to make sure that Moody is not a name from the maternal side of the Lamberts. There are a lot of Moodys in this bit of Notts- mainly Laxton, Kneesall.
Sally
Wow, thanks for that Sally (again). So that's 2 possible culprits then (I've just found the Matthew Moody you mentioned!) . . .
How common was it for the illegitmate child to be named after the potential father's surname?
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I think from what i have read, (and seen on censuses etc)that it was fairly common to use a father's surname as a middle name, as it was to use maternal surnames.
How you trace the father of your William i haven't a clue!! I wish i had as I have similar questions in my tree!! This is probably too late a birth to hope that the parish clerk/vicar added any useful comments in the register, and too late for a bastardy inquiry etc. Norwell is in the Southwell Union, but there is no reference to Mary or William in the Southwell papers at the Nat Arch ( although a John Lambert was an officer at the time).
Have you got WML's marriage cert- a very unlikely poss that the father is named on it?I suppose he might have known his father however, as there seems to be more than just him born to Mary, acc to the 1891/1901 etc.
Do keep us informed- I am starting to find your Mary quite fascinating.
Sally
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Yes Mary had more than one illigitimate child.
Fanny dtr of Mary baptised 11 Oct 1868
Emily Jane dtr of Mary 15 May 1869
Eleanor Annie dtr of Mary ( servant this time others only said spinster) bapt. 8 Apr 1876 and received into church 27 May 1876
I forgot to take the details of William with me and I didn't look back before 1860, but that's not a problem I can go back to the library later in the week.
BTW Bapt. 9 Feb 1880 George William Lambert son of William Moody publican and Hannah Maria Lambert, keeping it in the family.
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Wow! Jaywit, where on earht did you find that info?! Thank you though, so much!
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Nottinghamshire libraries are very good, I wasn't sure wether mine had Norwell PR's but it did. I just forgot to write the date down and I didn't go far enough back, but that's not a problem. If you want anything else from Norwell pr's ( I think they go up to 1900) just let me know in the next 24 hours and I will look for you later in the week.
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Wow, well I can't thank you enough! Thats unbelievably kind of you! I will spend a few hours tonight on the Lambert side and get back to you later on If i may.
Thanks again.
Lee
P.s. Dont' have detaisl to hand just yet - but what do you mean by this?! ...
BTW Bapt. 9 Feb 1880 George William Lambert son of William Moody publican and Hannah Maria Lambert, keeping it in the family.
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Well it looks like another illigitimate birth between the Lambert and Moody families. That was the only one I found that named the father.
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Well it looks like another illigitimate birth between the Lambert and Moody families. That was the only one I found that named the father.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, right ok. My head hurts a bit now!!! :)
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There also looks to be another illegitimate child on the 1861 census - Mary M Lambert (as far as I can make out). No doubt the 'M' stands for Moody again?!
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Things get stranger ... Looking at the 1871 census - it seems mary has had even more children. The census info is;
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Lambert 83
Elizabeth Lambert 77
Mary Lambert 32
John Lambert 30
William Lambert 13
Thomas Lambert 8
Charlotte Lambert 8
Emily Lambert 1
They can't be Mary's mum and dad and John, Mary's brother is an "imbecile/deaf and dumb" so i'm assuming they can't be his?!?!? ......
... I'm coming to the conclusion mary may have been a harlot!
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Don't worry it happened, like I have said before my great great grandmother had 4 illegitimate children when she was living in a small village. get as much info. together as you can and then I can check the PR's much more thoroughly next time
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Thanks so much Jaywit, it is truly appreciated. Anyway, my brain is slightly frazzled right now so think i'm goign to have an early night and spend an hour or 2 tomrrow putting all the info from the censuses into my Family tree program and then it should give you somethign solid to go off (if your brilliant offer is still available?).
So far, I have written this, as I say will get all the siblings/sons/daughters into FTM which will tidy and solidify everything.
William Moody Lambert
William Moody Lambert was born an illegitimate child on 28th June 1858 in Norwell, Notts to Mary Lambert. It is possible that the 'Moody' part of his name refers to his fathers surname as this seems a common convention. There are a few likely candidates who could be his father but at this stage, it is impossible to say with any conviction who it would be.
The 1861 census shows William living with his mother Mary, grandmother and grandfather, Elizabeth (nurse) and Robert Lambert (Ag Lab), uncle John (who was deaf and dumb) and sister Mary M Lambert, who was also it seems illegitimate and born c1856.
1871, and William now 13, is still living with both grandparents, (now 77 and 83!) his Mother and Uncle but also a seeming host of brothers and sisters, who it seems, have also been born illegitimatly. Thomas, 8, Charlotte 8 (twins or born either side of the census, 1 year apart) and Emily 1. It seems William had a sister Fanny, who was baptised 11 Oct 1868 but who it seems died in the same year, shortly after her birth (Southwell 7b 202).
William in 1881, is 23, and now married, living on Gander Hill and working as a publican in Norwell. According to some local information, there were 3 pubs in Norwell and the Black Horse was opposite the Plough - on Bathley Lane. Gander Hill appears to be the hill just outside Norwell along Bathley Road so, it appears WIlliam, and his wife, Maria would have run the Black Horse. They have also had their first child - John Thomas Lambert who is aged 2. Also livign at the pub, they have a George Nettleship who is lodging with the family and is employed as a labourer, he was born in Norwell so it is likely he was a friend.
The family then move to Tockwith, Yorkshire at some point between 1885 and 1887 (we know this from their children's birth dates and places) and in 1891, William (employed as an ag lab) and Maria have had further children. John Thomas is now 12, and is joined by Charles H 6, Florence 4, Mary H 3, and Mabel 1.
The 1901 census shows the family still living in Tockwith, with some new additions and some flying the nest. living with Maria and William are Annie 6, Charles 16, Edgar 9, and Herbert 5.
Mary Lambert
Mary Lambert was born c1834 to Robert (an Ag Lab) and Elizabeth Lambert in Ossington, Nottinghamshire. In the 1841 census they family still live in Ossington and Mary's siblings in their entirety are; Ann 15, Elizabeth 9, Richard 9 and John 3.
By 1851 the family have moved to the next village of Norwell, Mary is 16 and Richard has left home and is XXXXX
1861 and Mary is still living with her parents in Norwell and with her deaf and dumb brother, John. She has had 2 illegitimate children by this time:- William Moody and Mary M, 2 and 4 respectively.
1871 sees Mary still at home with her parents in Norwell and even more seemingly illegitimate children - William, 13, Thomas, 8, Charlotte 8 (twins or born either side of the census, 1 year apart?) and Emily 1. The parish registers indicate Mary also had a daughter Fanny, who was baptised 11 Oct 1868 but who it seems died in the same year, shortly after her birth (Southwell 7b 202).
Laos baptised on 8th April 186 was Eleanor Annie dtr of Mary (servant this time others only said spinster) and received into church 27 May 1876
1881 and Mary is living still as a spinster in Bottom Street, Norwell as a 'head' of the family with her 2 daugthers - Charlotte (19 - who was deaf and dumb from birth) and Emily (11). It seems that one of her daughters has taken after her mother and there is an illegitimate granddaughter of Mary - 4 year old Merill A Lambert.
1891 and Mary is still an independent woman, wokring as a Charwoman, living with her children and grandchildren(!) on Woodhouse Road, Norwell. With her are; Charlotte E and Thomas H (27) and Eleanor A (14) and George W 9 who are classed as her grandchildren.
In 1901, Mary now 66 is living in Palace/Pallis Hall on Newark Road, Norwell with Charlotte and Thomas and her granchildren - Eleanor and George.
It is extremely likely that Mary died in 1913, aged 79 (Southwell 7b 502).
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P.s. after this new and exciting branch of my family - I think I need to definitely visit the area!!!! Goign to try at some point from July - September.
Do you think this would be worth it? Would it be better to stay in the Norwell area or perhaps in Newark etc . . . to the drawing board me thinks!!! :)
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Right I will print all that off , Ossington PR's are in the library as well so I should be able to go back to Mary's birth. It will be Thurs or Fri when I go to the library so no problem if you come up with something else tomorrow. Yes do come, it's an area that doesn't get an awful lot of tourists but it's well worth visiting. Alluno-a obviously lives very close by and I'm not far away, So if you do decide to come down I can give you loads of information of where to go. Try and pull in a visit to Soutwell Workhouse, well worth seeing. Anyway plenty of time for all of that later when you have got more information.
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Hi Lee,
Yes this area is very worth a visit!! I agree Jaywit.
The 1880 child of William Moody and Hannah Lambert--this is legit!!!! ie William Moody Lambert married Hannah M Leather in 1878.
I have a few women cropping up in the family with a whole string of illeg children- and wonder if the explanation could sometimes be that this is the result of a stable relationship with just one father, perhaps a married man?
looks like a lot of certificates need to be bought. Was it illegal to enter a fathers name on a certificate without a declaration of paternity in the mid 19th cent??
Sally
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I realized late last night I had made a mistake on that baptism and it was in fact legitimate
This is what the law said about the father's name on the birth cert.
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/births.htm#COL4
I think this is why the father's name was used as a christian name, the mother going to register the birth wanted something legal and this was the only way she could do it.
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Hi Jaywit,
Thank-you for that link, very useful.--it would be nice if the ancestors had stuck to the guidelines on birth certs though! I have bought certs for the half sibs of an ancestor hoping for the mother's "formerly" name, to my great disapointment she only revealed her first married name. Silly women.
sally
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Sally I think the problem was that it all depended on what questions were asked. Try and think yourself back to those days, an Ag Lab's wife or daughter. The only time they came into contact with anyone in any official capacity was when they had to deal with the local vicar, and chances were in a village he knew everything that was going on ;D ;D ;D
Civil registration came in, weddings in church basically carried on as they always had, banns read etc. the vicar just filled in the certificate. Deaths, had to be registered, so a trip to the RO. Many people hadn't had a doctor attending them, just the village 'nurse' If their was no spouse or child to register the death then she had to do it as the person present at death. That's why you get causes of death such as 'natural decay'.
Births, if married then the husband could and often did register, perhaps combining a trip to the RO with a trip to market. Illegitimate births basically had to be the mother unless she was too ill to go. If the mother was asked the question ' Mrs Smith what was your name before you married Mr Smith' Then her upbringing would be to answer that question correctly 'It was Jones' without going into the details that she had been Jones nee Brown.
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well yes Jaywit!! its all very explainable but none the less annoying!!
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Just found your thread, if you find a bit more and need help after the look up in the register, I have access to births and deaths for Nottingham and can help too.
One of my Wards had land in Norwell 1824, well you never know! He also had a beerhouse.
Willsy
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Lee Woo Hoo You have hit the jackpot ;D ;D ;D
William named his father on his marriage cert as Matthew Moody bricklayer, must be one and the same as Sally found in the 1851 census.
I have more information for you, but I must go and prepare and eat dinner. I will be back later.
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Lee I have PMed you with some information.
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Lee I have PMed you with some information.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Simply fantastic. Can't thank you enough.
I'll no doubt 'see' you around and will get some tips for when i visit the area.
All the best to everyone who has helped.
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WOW!!
Brilliant result Jaywit, well done!!
Congrats Lee, I am really jealous, I wish my illegit had known his father (for my benefit, if not his!). i wonder if he was the father of the others....
keep in touch, Sally
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Sally I think he was the father of the earlier ones ( There are more) but looking at the census he appeared to have moved on so................... I think Lee will have to do more digging if he wants to know the father's of all of them, mind you I could try and find all of the marriages, you never know they may all have spilled the beans ;D ;D ;D
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Where is Norwell please is it Gainsborough?
I have a lady who is on the census as being born there her name was Fanny Rawson bn c 1821 is anyone likely to be going to the library where this info would be saved I would like to know her parents and date of birth please.
Sue
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The Norwell pertaining to this thread is here: http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=norwell%2C+notts&countryCode=GB#map=53.14794,-0.8527|13|4&bd=useful_information&loc=GB:53.1467:-0.8527:13|norwell,%20notts|Norwell,%20Nottinghamshire
In Nottinghamshire, near to Newark.
Unfortunately I live in York so won't be able to help on this occasion. I wish you the very bst of luck though!!
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Where is Norwell please is it Gainsborough?
I have a lady who is on the census as being born there her name was Fanny Rawson bn c 1821 is anyone likely to be going to the library where this info would be saved I would like to know her parents and date of birth please.
Sue
Look for 1841 census, Francis aged 9 daughter of Joseph and Ann Rawson of Norbury.
Skewy
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would that be her then i s Fanny short for Francis is Norbury near Norwell Please
Sue
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Sorry, I meant Norwell, I've been doing Norbury as well.
Yes Francis is the proper name for Fanny.
Skewy