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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: ANNICK on Sunday 11 May 08 14:15 BST (UK)
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Hello
My late father-in-law landed in Normandy on June 13th. He was part of the 148th regiment of the Royal Armoured Corps which was part of the 33rd Armoured Brigade.
I think he took part of the operation Totalise in Normandy and delivered Le Havre. Then... I don't know, but according to his military papers, he went to Belgium, the Nederlands and Germany.
Thanks to anyone who could give me info and/or advices.
Best wishes,
Annick
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I have some details on this unit...I'll post them tonight ;)
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Thank you very much in advance. I am very curious to know what happened to this regiment.
Best regards,
Annick
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33rd Armoured Bde were an independent armoured bde, this means the were essentially general reserve units whose primary role was to support infantry divisions.
33rd did not include infantry as some Armoured bdes did.
They had a total strength of 3,400 all ranks.
The bde was formed in 1942, and spent the next years up until 1944 in training and home defence. within the bde were x2 Yeomanry units, the Northamptonshire Yeomanry and from 16th Aug 1944, the East Riding Yeomany.
The unit had been hard hit at Caen, with the Northamptonshires being virtually wiped out. This did not stop them claiming the major kill of the year when they scored a direct hit from a Sherman Firefly on the German Tank Ace Michael Wittmann.
They were in North west Europe from 13th June (D-Day +7) until 21st Aug 1944. Their commander was Brig HB Scott.
The bde was involved heavily in the major tank battle at Caen.
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This is really extremely nice of you to have been able to write so many details so quickly !
Thank you very very much for your help . I really do appreciate. Do you know where they went next, after Caen and Le Havre ? If you have more details I would be glad to get them.
I have got a picture of the tank crew my father-in-law was part off, taken in March 1944 in Stanwick, with the name of the soldiers. Do you think this picture could be interesting for some people on this website if I scanned it ?
Many thanks... and by best regards,
Annick
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148th RAC were part of 33 bde up until 16th Aug (Caen was from 4th - 18th July)
All the tanks had identifying numbers on them...and to confuse the enemy (and us!!) they did not match the actual numbers! 148 had the number "175" on them.
On the 18th Jan 1945, the bde was transferred to 79th Armoured Div. They were formed from the former horse cavalry, Dragoons Lancers, Hussars and Carabiniers.
The vehicles used were Shermans (including 75mm and Sherman Fireflys), Buffalo's, and Kangaroos these were troop carriers....
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This is really extremely nice of you to have been able to write so many details so quickly !
Thank you very very much for your help . I really do appreciate. Do you know where they went next, after Caen and Le Havre ? If you have more details I would be glad to get them.
I have got a picture of the tank crew my father-in-law was part off, taken in March 1944 in Stanwick, with the name of the soldiers. Do you think this picture could be interesting for some people on this website if I scanned it ?
Many thanks... and by best regards,
Annick
Ooh yes!! Of course we'd be interested!! Me especially! I would be able to tell you the type of vehicle he was using!
This is the int I have to hand, and I will do some more research for you...
This is interesting...
http://www.d-daytanks.org.uk/articles/armoured.html
Oops Armoured Regt, not Armoured Div...But have a dig on the site...
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Again, Thank you so much. The link seems very interesting. I went on various French websites and the Caen memorial website as well. But there are very few details about this regiment. I think they fought in the Ardennes during the winter 1944/45 but at that time they could have been attached to the Canadiens. What do you think ?
I'll scan the photos (actually I have got 2) tomorrow.
With my best regards,
Annick
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They were formally 9th bn The Loyal Regt (infantry)....
Armour and artillery support was assigned for specific tasks. At one period or another the following were assigned to the Division for support:
Totalize (7 Aug 44) 33rd Armoured Brigade
Northamptonshire Yeomanry
144th RAC Rgt
148th RAC Rgt
LeHavre (10 Sept 44)
34th Tank Brigade (less 147th Rgt)
Reichwald (l6 Jan 45)
Squadron of Crocodile flame tanks from
1st Fife & Forfar Yeomanry (79 ArDiv)
(8 Feb 45)
107th Rgt from 34th Tank Brigade
Rhine Crossing (23 Mar 45)
Northamptonshire Yeomanry (Buffaloes)
Staffordshire Yeomanry (DD Tanks)
454 Mtn Battery (3.7" Howitzers)
(these could be transported in Buffaloes)
Ardennes (Dec 44-Jan 45)
33rd Tank Brigade
Kangaroos and Buffaloes were used for transport missions in Holland and Rhine Crossing.
Wasp flame throwers were used in Holland
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And still it comes!
“Totalize Battle” In Normandy by Ken Tout who has written a few books from his experience as a tank crew member of the Northampton Yeomanry which was in 33rd Armoured Brigade along with 144th and 148th R.A.C.
It is a fair account although somewhat repetitious, of the combined Tank assault by British – Canadian and Polish Armoured brigades to close the Falaise gap, and is an excellent account of some of the innovations made – again without too much rehearsal of the changes to established Tank warfare.
He makes the point – already well known – but ignored seemingly, from battles in Africa regarding the superiority of the Panzers to our Tanks – also the constant production of Shermans by the all powerful American production lines, knowing that they were inferior, whereas the British did produce the Churchill – Cromwell and finally Comet with a reasonable gun in the 17 pounder and finally for the Artillery – the late 3.7 anti tank gun.
He also quotes an old desert hand – “I have little patience with any who compares our Tank Crews unfavourably with the Panzer crews who always had the 88 on wheels to make a screen behind which they could withdraw…..Just look at the Valentines retrieved Kasserine against Mark 1V’s and Tigers by sheer good training and guts and with the help of our 25 pounders in the front line firing over open sights…….. and don’t tell me our air arm compensated for ground weaponry. In Tunisia until the final six weeks – air supremacy belonged to the ME and Stuka
Which is a fair bellyache as it was the Valentine with their two pounders of the 6th Armoured Div and the mix of two and six pounders of the 21st and 25th tank bdes which turned the tide along with the heroics of the 25 pounder gunners.
It was just before the final battle from Medjez that all British Tanks were issued with the 6 pounder. The American Sherman maintained their 75mm gun throughout and it was not until the British 17 pounder became more numerous that they were fitted as “Fireflys”.
The British Tank crew losses in the Totalize battle was in the region of 5.4% as opposed to the walking Infantry of 9.85% and the Carried on Ron’s Kangeroos of 7.4%…. I sometimes wonder why we managed to survive against even one they had so many of them !88.mm…
The "air supremacy of the Daf was only after boith Tedder and Coningham went ove to Algiers and Monty was able to get Broadhurst to institute the "Cab Rank" for th El Hamma battle.
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SCRIMNET, YOU ARE A GOLD MINE !
Thanks so much for having done these research.
I read excerpts of Ken Tout “A fine night for tanks” and I have got “The road to Falaise” by Stephen Hart, as well as “Les blindés alliés en Normandie” by Yves Buffetaut.
Previously I got some info through a BBC forum devoted to WW2.
Apparently the 33rd AB was equipped with 157 Sherman M4s, 36 Sherman fiereflies
They fought in the Ardennes during the winter 44/45, but I have no details and this is what I would like to know and also what happened next in Holland and Germany.
Anyway, here are the photos : At the back of the one taken at Stanwick in March 1944, there are the following names :
J. Lomas (or Tomas (Lt)
Daniel Josephs
David D. (Capt.)
Robert J. Buttler (Lt.)
J. ? (major)
A. J. Ensor (?) (Lt)
Another one I can’t decipher
and a number B2692.
My father-in-law was Edward John Storey (he is the one who wore glasses).
There is no date or place on the other photo.
If you can find other info I would be delighted. Thank you really for having spent so much time for me.
Best regards from France,
Annick
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Hello again Annick!
Well...The photo is that of a Firefly...there was initially one per troop...which went up to x2 by the end of the war.
You can tell it is a Firefly by the box like bulge at the rear of the turret.
The second pic is probably around 1944 as there are nil medal ribbons...
Did you know the Germans called Shermans "Tommy Cookers" ? As that is what they did...
Have you tried the tank museum at Bovington?
http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/library.html
I expect they would love copies of the pics as well...
Unfortunately, I'm not a Tankie Guru, but I'm sure the museum or a Guru will be able to ID the tank in the pic down to the commanders name!
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AGAIN A THOUSAND OF THANKS AND ALL MY BEST WISHES,
ANNICK
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Berty,
here is the back of the picture. Best regards,
Annick
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I'm sure the Regt Museum and or the Regt Association would be extremely interested in that pic with all the names attached...
Perhaps there is someone on Roots Chat that may have a rellie there!!!
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I am going to send a message to the tank museum. Thanks for your advice.
Annick
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Hello Annick,
this is on the public section of RootsChat as my instant message facility isn't working, I don't know why?
Have found some more information on Storey and 148 RAC.
Try instant/private message to me and I will send you the information.
Berty.
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Hello Bery,
How nice to get back to me. What have you discovered ?
Best wishes,
Annick
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Hello
I have seen your message and my grandad served in 1st northampton yeomanry as a tank driver.
Do you still require additional information about the regiment and if so what would you like to know.
My grandad told my dad and myself alot of stories about the war and about where the regiment was posted. I also have a book about 1st northampton yeomanry printed in 1946 which was given to all the survivers of the regiment.
Hopefully will hear from you soon.
Cheryl
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Cheryl....
Your granddad was a very lucky man!
Most of the Npton Yeomanry were wiped out at Caen...
Have you seen the diorama at Northampton Drill Hall in Clare St??
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No I haven't been there hopefully i can go this year with the rest of my family.
My grandad was lucky he was wounded in his arm and chest when driving his tank but managed to survive!
It spent 6 months recovering and then re joined the regiment in March 1945 and then went across the Rhine into Germany.
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Hello Cheryl,
And thank you for your interest and kind message.
Yes I am still searching what happened to my father-in-law after his regiment (148th Rac) was disbanded in August 1944. He was posted as SLO (Senior Liaison Officer) to the Brigade Headquarters Squadron of the 33rd Armoured Brigade, but I don't know what he did afterwards. I know he went to Holland then Germany.
If you had any stories about the Rhine crossing, the battles in North Europe I would be delighted to read them.
Thanks in advance and all by best wishes for 2009,
Annick
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Did you have any luck with the museum or that Berty chap??
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Cheryl
There is a small display at the Drill Hall, and some more at Abington Park Museum.
You may need to speak to someone at the Drill Hall to get in...
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Hello Scrimnet,
Berty was a very good help and gave me some precious advises and info.
Unfortunately I never got any answer from the Tank Museum although I was prepared to send them some pictures of my father-in-law and his tanks.
Best wishes to you too...
Annick
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Hello Annick
Best wishes for 2009 to you as well.
I will look at the book I have today as it mentions lots of people in the regiment and see if I can find your father-in-laws name in there and put some information about the Rhine Crossing and also where they went after that. Please bear with me for a few days as I need to refresh my memory but I will put some information on here soon.
I believe that you father in law was originally in the 2nd Northampton Yeomanry which was disbanded on 15 August 1944 and then survivors were posted to the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry.
I also have a list of all personal who served in the regiment who were killed or wounded I don’t know if this is of any interest to you but you can have a copy if you wish.
Finally, do you know if you father-in-law used to have his laundry cleaned by the advance laundry in South East London as my grandad told us that he met a sgt from his regiment when he was working after the war. I believe this may have been your father in law.
Kind Regards
Cheryl
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Hello Scrimnet,
I will let my dad know about the drill hall and he can hopefully arrange that!
Thank you
Cheryl
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Hello Cheryl,
Thanks for your reply. I would be delighted to get info about the Rhine crossing. I am pretty sure my father-in-law hasn't been wounded. Actually he never talked about the War at all to his wife and sons. It is very difficult to know what happened to him because he was part of a unit which was posted to various units depending of the needs.
After the War, he came back to his village in Devon, so I don't think he stayed in London. He was a captain.
What I don't know is if he fought in the Ardennes during the winter 44/45. I know that the 33rd Armoured Brigade was transferred to the 79th Armoured Division on January 18th, 1945 and then they probably reach Germany.
I do understand that you must be busy, so please, when you have a little time and find some things, I would be really very happy.
With my kind regards,
Annick
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Hello Annick
As promised here is some information I found out about the Rhine Crossing from the book my grandad got it goes into a lot of detail but I have shortened bits down a bit as most of it refers to names of people. If you want to know more I can put some more on or if you tell me your father in laws name I can see if it mentions him in it. Anyway…
On 18th January 1945 33rd Armoured Brigade came under the Command of the 79th Armoured Division and until the end of the month the Regiment were reorganising and despatching tanks to Brussels which is where they were held until they were needed.
On 19th March the Northamptonshire Yeomanry moved towards Germany and Lt Colonel The Lord George Scott visited all the squadrons for a final word on the operation. The Regimental task was to deliver the 154 Infantry Brigade on the East Bank of the Rhine which was 2.5 miles from Emmerich.
The Regiment operated on a two squadron front. ‘A’ Squadron led by Major Courage with the 7th Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders were on the right and ‘C’ squadron with Major Bevan and the 7th Battalion Black Watch on the left.
At 1700 hours the preliminary barrage opened up with a roar from the massed guns. The official war Diary states at 2104 hours A Squadron left troop landed 7th Argyllas on East Bank of the Rhine. At 2107 hours A squadron right hand troop landed and at 2108 hours C squadron reported the assault wave of 7th Black Watch landed on both routes.
By midnight 24 March 483 crossings ere made and to relieve the strain on troops they organised a roster so that each man could sleep 4 hours in 24.
On 29th march with the completion of the main bridges across the Rhine the regular ferry service stopped. During the last 2 days of the month of March the regiment was on immediate call for further operations if required and on 31st march were officially released.
Afterwards the regiment moved to Breda in Holland to act as a counter attack force in the event of the Germans creating a diversion. On 30th April orders were received to move to Zwolle in North East Holland.
At 2035 hours on 4th May 1945 the BBC official announced of the cessation of hostilities in Breda. On 5th May the regiment went to Zwolle.
Two months were spent here. On 8th July the regiment left Zwolle and at 0500 hours moved 260 miles to Bleckede on the River Elbe. for many this was the final destination with several men who had already been released to go home.
Hope this gives you a bit more information.
Cheryl
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Hello Cheryl,
This is a precious piece of information ! Thank you so much for having taken the time to do that. I read that the Rhine crossing was called "operation Plunder" ; is it what you described ? My father-in-law was Captain John Edward Storey, if you find his name somewhere I would be really grateful if you could tell me a bit more.
With many many thanks and all my best regards,
Annick
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Hello Annick
Yeah it was known as operation Plunder, sorry should of put that in there. I will look through the book for your father in law and see if it mentions him as it starts from 1939.
i dont know if you would be interested in getting a copy as a keep sake. the book is called 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry in Northwest Europe by R.F Neville, it can be got on the internet but is difficult to get hold off.
Do you have any photos of the regiment at any time as i dont have any photos of my grandad in uniform as they got destroyed before i was born somehow.
Thank you
Cheryl
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Thanks Cheryl,
If you go on page 1 of this subject, you'll see 2 pictures I already put. But I found another one I join here. There is no mention of date or place at the back. I suppose it have been taken before 1944. My father-in-law is sitting on the front row, second from the left.
I will try to find the book you mentioned. Thanks so much for looking for him in the book, and thanks again for your help.
Best regards,
Annick
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Annick
Hello. I came across this discussion by chance. I am the author of Road to Falaise, to which you refer. I may have more information available on 148 RAC. I'd also very much like to know what you thought of my book.
:)
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...
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Hello,
I am really lucky to meet you on this forum. Thanks for your message. Yes I read your book with great interest. It is accurately documented with very useful maps showing the trips of different units. The index is very detailed and helped me too.
Actually all the books published in this collection seem all very interesting.
I am still searching what the 33rd Armoured Brigade did after Falaise. I think the Brigade was attached to the 79th A.Br. The military papers of my father-in-law are not very precise: he apparently went to Belgium and the Netherlands, but I don't know if he fought in the Ardennes during winter 44.
If you have some info about the 148th RAC I would be extremely grateful if you could send it to me.
With many thanks in advance and my best regards,
Annick
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I am looking for information on a Tpr Walter Jesse William DAVEY (11thH) died while serving with 144th Regt R.A.C.
I am writing the 'Roll of Honour' for the 11thH.
Can anyone help please?
Contact: (*)
David
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My grandfather HB (Harry) Scott commanded 33 Armd Bde post-Goodwood until the end of the war. Sadly he died in 1953 and we know little about his wartime experiences. I was wondering if anyone could shed any light on him and/or 33 Armd Bde. My father has been in touch with Ken Tout and Ken remembered Harry requisitioning a souped-up Honey off him for his personal use! My father has few memories of his father (he was away almost the whole of WW2), and any anecdotes or info would be gratefully received.
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Hello,
I had a contact with the librarian of the Tank Museum in Bovington. She wrote that they have the operational War Diaries for some regiments from 1941 to 1944. You could contact them at : librarian at tankmuseum.org.
My late father-in-law was a captain of the 148th RAC. I lost his trace after the regiment was disbanded in August 1944 until January 1945 when the 33rd AB came under the command of the 79th Armoured Division until the end of August 1945 (but I am not sure about that). They probably crossed the Rhine in March 1945 but I have very seldom info about it.
Ken Tout left a message last January on this topic, but since then I didn't have any news from him and thought he was busy.
I am sorry not to be very helpful. I suppose my father-in-law knew your grandfather. A pity they didn't write anything about the War, like many of the people who had such a terrible experience did.
If you have some info about the 148th RAC or the 33rd AB, PLEASE, get in touch.
With my best regards,
Annick
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Thank you for this, i will check to see if i have any mention in the 11th's dairies.
kindest Regards
David.
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Annick,
A friend and I are currently working on the histories of the World War 2 Royal Armoured Corps (RAC) Regiments - of which 148 Regt RAC was one.
I can help on the history of this unit, but perhaps you could email me - (*) - and I'll explain in more detail the type of articles we write and send you a sample.
I'm in Somerset, ex-Army (1960-2002) and have an abiding interest in British Army history of World War 2.
I'd very much appreciate it if you could contact me.
Mike Jackson
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Dear Mike
I have just come across your emial on Rootschat and I was wondering if you are still working in this project and it you have any further imformation about the 148th? My father was Leonard Craig was a Sargeant in this regiment and Marched trough Europe with them until he was demobbed in Camisano, Italy.
Did you publish your findings? I'd love to read them.
Thanks
Caroline
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Hi, I received my father's army record a few days ago. Have spent time looking at the detail on each sheet. He was in the 33rd Armoured Brigade. He was a wireless operator and was in the tank with the Brigadier. So I assume it was your grandfather. At the end of the war he was running an officers's club in Travermunde for 6 months. possibly your grandfather was there.
Hope this helps. Have a few more pieces of information which will be of use to you.
Yours,D
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Hello.
My wife is the granddaughter of Lieutenant Colonel (Major at the time) Cyril J. Smith (C.J.) who was the commanding officer of "B" Squadron of the 148th RAC from the time they landed in Normandy on June 13, 1944 until he was injured on August 13, 1944. It appears as if "B" squadron was in the woods north of Le Bu-sur-Rouvres on August 13, 1944 when they were subject to heavy shelling. Cyril was struck by shrapnel and was medically evacuated at the conclusion of the battle. Though he isn't cited by name, reference to his injury appears in the information about the unit on the Wikipedia entry as well as other online references: "On 13 August the regiment was shelled while relieving 144 RAC, and the commander of 'B' Squadron and several other ranks were wounded. Later that day the regiment's 'harbour' was heavily shelled and the Commanding Officer, Lt-Col R.G. Cracroft, MC, was killed."
From what we've been able to gather, Cyril Smith was the leader of "B" Squadron of the 148 RAC through Operation Goodwood and Operation Totalise in the Normandy campaign during the summer of 1944. Again from the reference: "During Totalize, 'B' Sqn attacked the village of Tilly la Campagne, which was 'browned' with the tanks' Browning machine guns. This induced many members of 1055 Grenadier Regiment to surrender. 'B' squadron knocked out three assault guns for the loss of one Sherman, and 'C' Squadron brewed up two Panther tanks for no loss."
We only recently learned of his military service. Cyril passed away in 1973, and did not share much information with his family about his war experience.
We are looking to connect with any living veterans of the 148 RAC who might remember Major Smith, and who might be willing to share information and pictures with us. Much of Cyril's belongings were destroyed in a fire in the 1970s so only a few photos and his military records in Kew survive for us to understand his journey. We do have a very large photograph of a group of military men with Cyril in the center of the first row, and we believe this might be a Regimental photograph of "B" Squadron of the 148 RAC before they deployed to Europe, but we aren't sure.
Please feel free to reach me through this site. There's very little reference at all to the 148 RAC so this chat thread is one of the few locations where we hope we can extract some information.
Thanks in advance for your help in this effort and request.
Regards,
Kane