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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: kwr on Wednesday 04 June 08 14:18 BST (UK)
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These two photographs have my grandfather in them. Was he in two different regiments or is it the same one?
Ken
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Well...They COULD be the same Regt...
What was his name?? Have you checked the Medal Index cards etc yet??
The lower one was not taken in this country, as they have Wolesley Helmets on...(pith helmets).
It could be pre, during or post WW1, but a higher definition scan would be of enormous help!
I can't decide whether they have Khaki Drill (KD) on or not, and I can discern nothing else other than they are mounted...The puttees are wound top down and tied at the bottom...
Top pic...Well...A few cap badges that could be one of half a dozen or more!...They also have mounted style puttees and one has mounted gaiters on...also some of them have spurs...
Some of them have nil cap badge, and the hats have stiffeners in...And they all appear to have the 1915 "economy" jacket on.
The shape of the cap badge that I can make out could be either 13th Hussars, 18th Hussars, 8th Hampshires, Dorset Yeomanry, City of London Yeomanry, or even Royal Engineers...So you see there is a lot to choose from!!!
Also it was probably taken in this country...They appear to have black boots on (another tip here!!) For service overseas, brown boots were usually worn, with black ones at home (smarter!)
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Thank you for your quick reply.
First I should say I posted these and several others, one of which was my other grandfather on the Merseyside Genealogy and History Forum in December last under the heading What regiments? in the Merseyside Military section and had some replies.
To answer your queries I have looked at the Medal Index but as his name is William Roberts there are just too many possibles!
I can't at the moment, do a high definition scan partly because I wouldn't know how to, being technically hamfisted but also because I don't have access to the pictures at the moment until about late July when I'm back in England.
These are certainly WW1 photographs because I know he wasn't in the army before it. There are some of him convalescing too in what looks like a very hot sort of place! I looked at the Merseyside site where the other pictures are posted hoping I could transfer them to this one but when I clicked on the space where they used to be it came up "temporarily disabled". I don't know whether I COULD look at them if I was more knowledgeable?
My grandfather, an electrician in civvy life, was living in Bootle Lancs so it is likely he joined a localish regiment. One of the suggestions was, like yours, that it MIGHT be the Royal Engineers.
Sorry to appear so useless but thanks for the tip about how the puttees are wound and about black and brown boots! Don't know if the two photographs I have added here of him ( I have them in My Pictures) are any use in providing clues but you'll be able to see what I mean about it being a bit hot - the Western Front it ain't!
Ken
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Just a quickie...But he was a signaller...
The first pic he has brassard on...Blue and White...During the First War there was no Royal Corps of Signals, and as had been done since time immemorial, the Sappers did it...
So the Royal Engineers thing is confirmed.
First pic...ummm....1916-7 Possibly somewhere hot and winter or early, and the second on...Could be Salonika or Mespot...
More later!
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BTW on the lower pic, there is a divisional sign on his hat...ID Laters when I get home!
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Wow! Talk about fast......I'm afraid you are just encouraging me to put another couple of photograps on, in case you discover more things I just didn't notice. So here are two more.......
and THANKS
Ken
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Sorry not much else...But stonking pics!!
Why not put them, on the restoration board??
I am still opined Salonika or Mesopotamia but the divisional falsh might just clinch it tonight!
And any more opics pse??/
We loves em we does!
If you can scan the motorbike a bit better, I could probably get an ID on it for you...
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I reckon this is him...although first went to France...it was not uncommon for them to go there first then off elsewhere...
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There is only x2 choices...this one and another, but he appears to have had nil overseas service...
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BTW in the summer, shorts WERE worn on the Western Front, but not khaki drill ones!
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Don't know what wizardry you are doing, much appreciated BUT
though I'd like it to be him I think it isn't. His full name was William Francis Roberts. It may be that the medal card is mistaken of course....?
One other thing that might be relevant is that after the SWW he emigrated to S.Africa. I don't suppose there was any fighting to speak of there? The last two pictures I have here of him seem to show him convalescing. What do you think?
Ken
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Yes he is!
As for the medal card...Doh! :o :o :-[
Points to note...
Pse supply ALL int on a soldier :P ::) I can then look elsewhere! ;D ;D And hopefully get the right one FIRST time... ;) ;)
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Lovely pics again though!
Lets try this one then...It was actually the first one I found!
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Abject apologies for not putting in his middle name. I had tried the Medal List with William Francis Roberts and there was only one which didn't fit so I presumed he was down as just William. Sorry to have wasted your time.
The alternative MAY be him but there is no record of service overseas which my grandfather evidently did. You will know better than I whether overseas duty was always included or not. Otherwise he may be among the screeds of William Roberts there are.
Last query but not on him but my other grandfather's two brothers. Both were killed in the FWW. I have two pictures - studio unfortunately, of one of them but I don't know whether he is Stanley Allison or William Allison. It may be of use if I can have suggestions about which regiment he is in - if it is possible. So my very last request and then I'll go away!
Ken
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Sorry,
Got the photo size wrong. Try again.
ken
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If you have these quality of piccies, don't ever go away!!
The x2 Medal Card I posted is the only other RE chap on there with that name!!
It may well just mean that he didn't go overseas until post 31 Dec 1915...
The last x2 are splendid pics and include gasmasks on the lower one..All x4 have them, so must be near the front...They wouldn't have bought them home...
I'll explain more later tonight... ;)
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Just to clarify - these are the suggestions I had regarding the majority of the pictures I've posted above........I quote:-
Looks to be a Yeomanry regiment (horsed infantry). Note the ‘spurs’ and ‘bandoliers’. The majority of the Yeomanry regiments fought as dismounted infantry, especially at Gallipoli. Other theatres they fought in where Mesopotamia, and the Balkans
I wouldn’t hazard a quess as to the cap badge as it looks similar to quite a few Yeomanry regiments - as there were many British Yeomanry regiments on the Macedonian Front:
Derbyshire, City of London (Rough Riders), County of London, Lothian and Borders Horse, Lovat Scouts, Nottinghamshire, Scottish Horse and Surrey.
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On the very last two pictures - the soldier in the kilt who may be either Stanley Allison or William James Allison, the comment was:-
Your uncle appears to to wearing an Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders cap badge.
Ken
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Just to clarify - these are the suggestions I had regarding the majority of the pictures I've posted above........I quote:-
Looks to be a Yeomanry regiment (horsed infantry). Note the ‘spurs’ and ‘bandoliers’. The majority of the Yeomanry regiments fought as dismounted infantry, especially at Gallipoli. Other theatres they fought in where Mesopotamia, and the Balkans
I wouldn’t hazard a quess as to the cap badge as it looks similar to quite a few Yeomanry regiments - as there were many British Yeomanry regiments on the Macedonian Front:
Derbyshire, City of London (Rough Riders), County of London, Lothian and Borders Horse, Lovat Scouts, Nottinghamshire, Scottish Horse and Surrey.
Ken
So why would they be wearing a signals brassard that was the domain of the Engineers at that point??
;D ;D
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Thanks for being so certain - I know so little that I'm prepared to be convinced by knowledgeable people.
What do you think of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders as possible for Stanley/ William James Allison. Would they be recruiting in Bootle/Liverpool?
I hadn't noticed the gas masks until you pointed them out.
I have recovered the only picture of my other grandfather - he is also in military uniform. He had a head wound but obviously recovered. I'd like to be sure which regiment he was in too. Perhaps I should post it under a different name if this thread is now too long - James Allison?
Thanks for your interest
Ken
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Not too long at all matey!
I will get back to you on your chaps...
I have been distracted by a non military thread on the Armed Forces board...
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OK! But the pictures do stop here until I can get the sole remaining one which (according to other sources) has him sitting in the middle of a group of Serbian soldiers. I'll be interested to have another opinion but that's late July....
Meantime the picture of James Allison. The comments I have had, point out how shambolic the whole thing is - there is even one without a rifle. The suggestion is that this probably dates it to late 1914, early 1915 because there had been a tremendous response to Kitchener: that the troops were about to be put into civilian billets possibly in Blackpool.
The suggestion was possibly the Kings Liverpool Regiment but not the 1/7 who were prewar and properly kitted up, possibly 2/7 which was formed in Bootle and moved to Blackpool in November 1914. My grandad was living in Bootle then.
Another correspondent said the cap badge was a Hanoverian horse on a silver scroll. I can't actually see that the cap badges are cleaar enough to be sure which regiment it is.
Here followeth the picture.
Ken
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White Horse of Hanover rampant with scroll below...Kings Liverpool!
Now then...these chaps do have Lee Metford rifles which were obsolescent at this time and were used by the Kitchener bns...
And they all have greatcoats...Some have them rolled about their bodies...
So this is the Kings Liverpool...and a Kitchener bn to boot, in winter...In Britain
Poss winter 1914 or 1915
I shall consult my records... ;)
But the other pics will be useful to put them all into context...And to narrow down the bn...
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In June I said I'd have access to another picture of my grandfather at the end of July. Here it is. Another source suggests they are Serbian soldiers but I'd like the experts here to look and say.......
There is also another picture which has surfaced confirming Scrimnet's confident judgement that he was in the RE. I'll post it separately. It makes me wonder - did the RE recruit in Liverpool/Bootle or would he have been assigned automatically because in civilian life he was an electrician?
Finally there is a rather higher definition picture of William Francis Roberts on a motorbike - Scrimnet asked if it could be done. This is the best I can do within the 500 limit.
All comments gratefully received.
Ken
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I don't know what W10 might mean nor the other cryptic initials on the bottom right might be. Any offers?
Ken
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Last picture is the (somewhat) enhanced picture Scrimnet asked for. It is a tiny photograph about an inch by two inches. Nothing on the back
Ken
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Hello Ken,
D 1233 looks like the photographer's reference number.
W 19 (as I read it), is presumably 19 Motor Air Line Section Number and whatever sub-units they were broken down into.
There are three war diaries at TNA for Motor Air Line Sections, but not yours unfortunately.
Phil
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Hi
Your soldier with the Scottish uniform is in the Liverpool Scottish (10th Liverpool Regiment). :)
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The cap badge of the Liverpool Scottish Regiment:
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:) Hi again
Found his MIC, there is nothing on the back:
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Last but not least, here's his SDGW entry:
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You have displayed some great photos. Thought I'd post the link for (Hugh) Stanley's CWGC entry:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03yf/
:D
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Can't leave his brother William out in the cold, here's his CWGC:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03yg/
;)
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William's MIC shows he originally served with the Army Cyclist Corp, There is no writing on the back of the card:
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Hopefully all the stuff pertains to your family. William's SDGW entry: 8)
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Atom 12!
Can't believe how richly you've rewarded me. I knew none of this but it is absolutely spot on.
They ARE the children of William and Jane. Their ages are correct because I know when they were born. The address is correct - I have a picture of the bungalow in Moreton.There is still one niece left alive from the family and she will be delighted (in a sense) to know more about them. She is the daughter of the only boy to survive - James Allison who, she tells me, was wounded in the head, and this may be why he wasn't killed like his two brothers. His is the picture I've posted as part of this thread - the one of ranks of soldiers in rather raggle taggle uniforms in the street.
Thank you very very much indeed! Are there further records on them that I can look up now you've found out which regiments they served in?
Ken
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Hi Ken
You might be able to find out more about what the Regiment was up from the War Diaries which you can either view on a visit to the National Archives at Kew or possibly order online for a fee. However, it is unusual for an individual soldier to be mentioned in the Diary. ???
Here's a link to the Liverpool Scottish:
http://www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk/history.htm
Finding it hard to get an MIC or anything for James. Do you have anymore information on him. Like a date/year of birth/where from/any middle names! as there are a lot of James Allison soldiers on the MICs and amongst pension records. Do you feel he was in the Liverpool Regiment for sure? :(
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A wee sample of a transcript of a War Diary in which the 10th Liverpool Scottish were involved:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03yh/
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A link to TNA page for the War Diary of 19th Liverpool Scottish:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03yi/
Also see:
1/10th (Scottish) Battalion (known as the Liverpool Scottish):
August 1914 : in Liverpool. Part of South Lancs Brigade, West Lancs Division.
2 November 1914 : landed at (Le) Havre.
2 November 1914 : attached to 9th Brigade, 3rd Division.
6 January 1916 : transferred to 166th Brigade, *55th Division.
An officer of this Battalion is featured in Ordinary Heroes. (Freddy Turner)
Once into the link below, click into the link at *'55th Division', to get the rest of their war history:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03yj/
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Ken
You will by now see that (Hugh) Stanley was killed on the first day of a famous action against the Germans, the"First Defence of Givenchy". It was to become the single most famous action that the Division fought. "It was afterwards publicly stated by an officer of the German General Staff that the stand made by the Division on April 9th and the days which followed marked the final ruination of the supreme German effort of 1918", says the Divisional history. Givenchy was eventually selected as the location of a fine memorial to the Division.
Anne
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Ken,
Going back to the top of the thread and William F Roberts...........
Having found three MICs for a William F Roberts in the Royal Engineers; 140378, 176100 and 78391, I'm inclined towards the third one, especially after checking out similar service numbers on CWGC, with the invaluable aid of Geoff's Search Engine and finding this web page:
http://www.kellybadge.co.uk/42SqnHistory/westtelehonourroll.htm
William F Roberts, Sapper 78391, Royal Engineers (former RE Territorial No.1151)
Awarded BWM, VM and 1914/15 Star
Entered France 20/7/15
Transferred to Class Z Reserve
Details of some casualties with similar numbers from CWGC:
78167; buried Everton
78236; from Edge Hill
78242; from Everton
78433; buried Bootle
78478; from Southport
78741; James Dougherty/Shaw, W19 Motor Air Line Section, buried Anfield
Phil
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Anne and Phil,
Apologies for silence - I've been unavoidably preoccupied elsewhere for the last couple of days and resented every minute of it!
Anne, I haven't had a chance to follow up on your suggested sites but will do - promise... and thanks yet again for continued thoughtful efforts to help.
Re. James Allison - this is his only name. He was born October 1886 Walton, Liverpool but by 1911 living in Bootle having married in 1911. Apart from the fact that he sustained a head wound but survived (obviously or I wouldn't be here) I have no further info on him until the later 1930s. According to Scrimnet and another informant it was definitely the Kings Liverpool regiment possibly 2/7.
Forester.
The idea of pursuing similar service numbers is a good one. As usual I am impressed by other people's expertise and ability to think laterally - more than I seem to be able to do.
I haven't had any opinion on the picture which shows W.F.Roberts seated amongst what seem to be foreign (Serbian) troops. Can anyone suggest another possible site if no-one feels able to say anything?
Ken
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Hi Ken
There seems to be Service Records for a James William Allison, from Wardle, Rochdale, born about the same time as your James and he is in the RFA, so not your man. Some of the other records are not opening for me, guess I've tired the site out ;D. Maybe someone else will have better luck for you, I hope so. :-\
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Hello Ken,
I can't see a James Allison (no middle name) coming up on either Pensions or Service Records that fits your man.
I also can't see any MICs on the NA for a James Allison in the Liverpool Regiment.
Phil
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Anne and Phil,
Thank you for your continued efforts, especially on my grandad. He is the most elusive ancestor (apart from one other) so I am really not expecting a great deal. Thank you for even trying.
Ken
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Some eleven years ago I posted some photographs of my grandfather and had excellent replies. Because of the magic of DNA I am in contact with a descendant of one of his siblings who has sent me two more. I offer them up now for any comments because I was so pleased last time.
Ken
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RE but you probably already know that. I don't think he's a motor cycle rider as he's not in the right kit.
In the 2nd. photo he appears to be wearing the post 1915 economy tunic so maybe later than 1914.