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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland Resources => Topic started by: Christopher on Sunday 08 June 08 22:20 BST (UK)
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The Orange order is the oldest and biggest Protestant fraternity in Scotland. It's a misconception that the Order in Scotland was started by immigrants from Ulster ...
the early lodges were started by soldiers returning from Ireland.
http://www.orangeorderscotland.com/page12.html (http://www.orangeorderscotland.com/page12.html)
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I bet there wasn't much traffic disruption in those days ;D
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What were the Scottish Soldiers doing in Ireland ?
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http://www.the-twelfth.org.uk/orange_order_in_scotland.htm
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What were the Scottish Soldiers doing in Ireland ?
There's always been a close relationship between the north of Ireland and Scotland ... it's not that far away ... from Fair Head in Co. Antrim to the Mull of Kintyre the distance is eleven miles and from Donaghadee in Co. Down to Portpatrick is twenty one miles. People could sail that distance, do their day's business, and be back before nightfall. A large number of Presbyterian Scots settled in Ulster in the seventeenth century.
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That's terrible, Irish men rebelling in Ireland, against what?
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http://www.uoguelph.ca/~sday/pdfs/Irish.pdf
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There seems to be a lot of reading material on the subject
http://ics.leeds.ac.uk/papers/vp01.cfm?outfit=ids&folder=16&paper=19
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A man died this week, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who stared man's inhumanity to man in the face and wrote about it in his books. I wonder what he would write about these people.
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A man died this week, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who stared man's inhumanity to man in the face and wrote about it in his books. I wonder what he would write about these people.
Hello mosstrooper,
I'm not certain what you mean by "these people." You're referring to ordinary working people who are similar to those who are to be found throughout the British Isles (or throughout Ireland and the United Kingdom). Large numbers of them have fought side by side with their Catholic neighbours in two World Wars and others have been proud to wear the green jersey and play Rugby for the Irish team.
Ruth Dudley Edwards, born and brought up in Dublin, wrote a book called "The Faithful Tribe: an intimate portrait of the loyal institutions" which was shortlisted for the Channel 4 political book prize. www.ruthdudleyedwards.co.uk/RDEreviews/IrTimes_22Sept_07.html
Susan McKay, author of "Northern Protestants: An Unsettled People" which was published by Blackstaff in 2000, has also tackled the subject. www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0306/1204675377509.html
Christopher
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Yes, I remember when Black People could fight in two world wars beside their White counterparts, but back home could not travel on the same bus, or eat in the same Restaurant, or go to the same school too.
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White people can usually travel on the same bus and eat in the same restaurant
unless they're wearing a football top indicating which team they support 8)
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You're correct Christopher
Who wants to sit beside a white Blackpool fan ;D ;D
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What were the Scottish Soldiers doing in Ireland ?
Breadalbane's Fencibles, one of the units sent over, was mainly there on prisoner escort duty, arriving shortly after the rebellion in 1798. The story is a lot more interesting than that though!
My four greats grandfather was in the second battalion, and initially I thought he had been amongst the Irish bound lot. In fact, half of the battalion refused to travel to Ireland, and never went, and from research at both the NAS and at Kew I found out that William Paton was amongst those who refused to go. The Fencibles were designed to defend home territory, and to allow the army to go off and fight wars, not to go off and do the fighting themselves. A lot of Fencibles were just as influenced by the same revolutionary thoughts as those in Ireland - they were mainly Presbyterian after all. Thomas Paine's "Rights of Man" and other titles were well read by them. Breadalbane's Fencibles was a Perthshire created regiment, and Perth is where the United Scotsmen were also formed.
The following from George Penny's "Traditions of Perth" describes Lady Breadalbane's reaction to being told where to go by the Fencibles who decided to stay put!
"These troops having been only raised as Scotch Fencibles, when disturbances broke out in Ireland, no argument could induce them to serve in that country. Lady Breadalbane, who had taken great interest in these proceedings, was so incensed at their obstinancy, that she is reported to have declared, that she would raise a regiment that would march to the devil if she desired it. A third regiment was accordingly embodied to serve in Ireland. By this time the new doctrines of the Rights of Man had been extensively spread through the country, and produced an important change in the public mind. The officers who had formerly been in the service, now found it a different business to deal with the men. They had acquired a knowledge of what was their due, and courage to demand it. One of the battalions of Breadalbane Fencibles, had not received their arrears of pay and bounty: on the morning on which they were to march, the regiment was drawn up in front of the George inn; when ordered to shoulder arms, each man stood immovable! The order was repeated, but still not a man stirred. Upon enquiring into the cause of this extraordinary conduct, the officer in command was informed, that not having received their arrears, the men were determined not to leave the place till these were settled. This was a dilemma as great as it was unexpected. The paymaster had no funds at his disposal, and the Earl of Breadalbane was not at hand. After much argument and entreaty, they were prevailed upon to march to Kinross; the officer pledging himself that every thing would be settled there on the return of an express from the Earl. A mutiny broke out some time afterwards in the first battalion; in consequence of which two of the men were shot, by order of a general court martial."
I've often wonderd why I never felt as 'loyal' as certain so called 'loyalists' back home in Ulster - probably because I am at heart a very old fashioned pre-1798 Presbyterian (minus the Calvinism though!)! Go on Wully...!
For more info on the Fencibles and their time in Ireland, my website at http://chrispatonscotland.tripod.com/id37.html has William's full story.
Chris
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Double post
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Very well researched Chris, as usual things are not always as Black & White, or in this case Orange, as they at first seem.
James.
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Tell me about it! My wife is a Catholic from Kilkenny, I'm a Presbyterian from Ulster - she has family members who fought for both the original IRA and the British Army (including two brothers who were great uncles, one in each at the the same time), and I have two great great grandfathers who were grand masters in the Orange Order, one in Belfast, the other in Coleraine, and a great grandfather in charge of a Royal Black Institution in Glasgow.
So in our house I shout "no surrender" at my wife, she throws holy water over me, then we sit down, have a cup of tea, and talk about what actually matters in the world...! :) lol
I think the real point is you can't live your lives because of what your ancestors did - to be blunt, they're dead, and the world has moved on! There's a great line in a Scottish Gaelic song from a band called Runrig entitled "Ard":
Tha an lasair nad anam aig meadhan do bhith
nas làidir 's nas motha na riaghaltas no ŕgh...
The spark in your soul at the centre of your being
Is larger and stronger than any government or king...
That's going on my headstone! :)
Chris
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Would the soldiers sent over to Ireland at that time been there long enough to feel the need to join an organisation like the Orange Order. I always found it strange that they should align themselves with William the 3rd more than 90 years after his death.
Chris, why does your wife throw holy water over you for shouting the last words of JamesConnolly :P :P ;D
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There I go, snookering myself again...! :)
Well, if I'm uttering "No Surrender" as an Orange war cry, it's a case of "you Orange bigot!"
If I'm uttering "No Surrender" as Connolly's last words, it's a case of "how dare you utter the words of a saint, you Orange bigot!"
Either way, I can't win...! :( lol
Still, she makes a nice chilli con carne...!:) hah
On William III, it's much more complicated, the order was not founded in 1690, but many years later, and was originally the Orange Society. An interesting fact is that William III's personal guards were the Dutch Blues, a Catholic regiment, and William went to the Boyne with the authority of the Pope, in the form of a papal bull. The pope feared the authority of the Catholic king Louis, so William was a handy instrument for him. King Billy actually granted a degree of toleration to Catholics and Presbyterians after Aughrim. It was the Irish parliament, dominated by the English descended aristocracy which overturned it all. There's a lot of myth about King Billy. I made a documentary about the statue of him in Carrickfergus as a university project in 1992. The council had made an image of him without him being on his trusty white horse. The locals went ballistic. The great majority weren't interested in fact, just their cosy wee propaganda based image of him riding off to the Boyne. One thing you don't do in Ulster is mess with people's symbols...! :)
Incidentally, the Ku Klux Klan was founded in American along similar lines to the Orange Order, long before the slavery issue came to dominate their agenda. I met the Klan chief about eight years ago in Pulaski, Tennessee, for an STV documentary I was working on, and he handed me a copy of the Declaration of Arbroath and a King James bible as items to explain the 'legitimacy' of his cause.
Chris
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Chris,
You'll be telling me next, the Masons look after the Pope's money!
James.
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Ah now, don't be putting words into my mouth! lol :)
Chris
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Chris,
Do I detect a note of Masonic secrecy here?
James
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No, though my granny was in the Eastern Star! :)
Chris
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Chris,
I would never joing anything that would have the likes of me as a member.
James
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No, though my granny was in the Eastern Star! :)
Chris
I had a dodgy curry in there once ;D
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An interesting view
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/talks/king_billy.html
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Sancti,
Unfortunately the man in the street has no interest in, or understanding of these matters, but is happy to support the Fat "Bs" who daily toil on our behalf, attending state dinners, junkets to various countries, with expense accounts larger than your annual salary, and bank balances to match, topped up with Trusts, Property and other instruments created by themselves to hide such gains from public view. All they need do is spout a few phrases of hatred against the opposition at the next election, and their way of life can safely continue.
But give the same man in the street the words to a Sectarian song and he will learn it for the next game.
James.
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History revisionism is a terrible thing.
Personally I see no reason for such organisations to exist in this day and age of mixed marriages and religious tolerance. Unfortunately there are still people with an irrational hatred of catholicism
http://couchtripper.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=4557
cannibalism ::) ::)
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I watched the whole of this wee interesting movie, which I assume was made to improve the Image of the Orange Order. The message I take from it is, here we have an Organization set up and maintained solely for the purpose of hatred of the Catholic Church, but it is a changing organization, the Chief Wizzard held out hope that some day away in the future, Orangemen will be allowed to attend a Catholic Funeral, and some day soon they can achieve the same political power as the Evangelical Christians in the USA who have a stranglehold on who gets elected.
I wonder if Alex Salmond knows he is regarded as worse than a Catholic, maybe he needs some new photo opportunities, join the American Rifle Association, be seen shooting some defenceless animals, did wonders for Putin shooting a tame Tiger, Pallin shooting something already dead, Vice President Cheney shooting a Judge in the face, trying to hit a Duck, he needs to be seen praying, or at the very least, opening a new Rangers Theme Bar.
James.
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Mr PATON CERTAINLY RE PRESBYTERIANS N ULSTER AND the UNITED IRISHMEN. BUT LIKE MOST AMATEURS HIS IS A PARTIAL Knowledge
What is certainly true however is that large numbers of Scots who served in Ireland and helped to crush the U.I. Did form Orange Lodges. As for the U.I. there were many Presbyterians in its ranks, But Unfortunately The Catholic U.I.men started to make it Sectarian, And that kinda dampened their enthusiasm. Many of their descendants became ORANGEMEN
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Mosstrooper People should try and learn about that which they condemn
I am an Orangeman and a Presbyterian, and these rules are so stupid Do youreally think in this day and age that they are observed. I have attended Church at Catholic Weddings, Funerals, ET, AL because thees people were and are my friends.In the PC And propaganda war Orangemen get a Raw deal, We spread all over the world, and what amazes sociologists membership was NY confined to Anglo /Scots/ Irish But Germans dutch and or her indigenous peoples In SouthAfrica there were Boer Orange lodges, confess Dint think they exist now but there were, SO I would not underrate the attractiveness of the Orange Order
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Is such an institution needed in the 21st century?
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Actually a very good question, But the answer is about as clear as "HOW LONG IS A PIECE of STRING" I am in it because, I firmly believe Ianthe UNION OF the UNITED KINGDOM, Also I believe that the reformed tradition of the Christian faith, is important to mankinds wellbeing and I will do all I can to promote this. As you must have gleaned I have Roman Catholic friends and Respect their absolute right to that faith and practise thereoff, Wellthe religious ones at least Wishing you well and just reminding all I am expressing my Opinions only
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Compared to my youth the Orange Order in the West of Scotland is a shadow of its former self. Like the Union itself, it's had its day.
Skoosh.
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Mr PATON CERTAINLY RE PRESBYTERIANS N ULSTER AND the UNITED IRISHMEN. BUT LIKE MOST AMATEURS HIS IS A PARTIAL Knowledge
Many thanks for your professional clarification.
Chris
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Mosstrooper People should try and learn about that which they condemn
I am an Orangeman and a Presbyterian, and these rules are so stupid Do youreally think in this day and age that they are observed. I have attended Church at Catholic Weddings, Funerals, ET, AL because thees people were and are my friends.In the PC And propaganda war Orangemen get a Raw deal, We spread all over the world, and what amazes sociologists membership was NY confined to Anglo /Scots/ Irish But Germans dutch and or her indigenous peoples In SouthAfrica there were Boer Orange lodges, confess Dint think they exist now but there were, SO I would not underrate the attractiveness of the Orange Order
I certainly wasn't aware of any pc or propaganda war against the institution but reports like the following are newsworthy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/15/unionists-orange-order-kerr-funeral
With regard to the Boers, I didn't realise they believed in the UNION OF the UNITED KINGDOM
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Just as a side note please....
This thread has been running for some time successfully, with light good hearted banter covering various opinions and political angles.
Good to keep it that way.... ;)
Monica :)
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That'sill allways be hardliners in any organization, Thats a gigiven to most fair minded people. As for the Boers well ,The Orange order demands of inindigenousrangemen to be true to their Nationalts Laws, As I wrote South Africa was a complicatedi stuation Due to Apartheid, Th ere were "AngloLodges" Native lodges and Boer Lodges Operating under one Grand Lodge Which I am sure does not exist anymore As for MrPaton I apologize for sounding like a smarty pants, just I have studied that period in depth, As for Swoosh dont tknow about the Orange were you live I take it you are Scots GNAT, Lets hope when the referendum comes? the Scottish people will vote with their Legendarycommonsense for the UNION
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Surely the promotion of the Union of the United Kingdom is for political parties and not religious institutions
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The Order holds no party political views, maybe at one time. But all members take it as a duty to uphold the Union and promote the Protestant faith.
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As someone with no belief in a god or the Union, I look forward to the outcome of the forthcoming referendum, where I am sure the legendary common sense of the Scots will prevail - no matter what they decide! :)
Chris
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Let us hope so, Chris.
I heard Wee Eck has brought out a pamphlet - "50 Ways To Mugabe A Referendum".
He will be well scunnered if he still loses.
Hibee
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We'll know soon enough!
Chris
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As a Protestant, if any Minister told me how I should be casting my vote, he wouldn't have his sorrows to seek.
The older you get the realisation comes how short this life is. Don't waste it continually looking back.
Remember it took two referendums to get Scotland its Parliament back. Nil Desperandum, the subject won't go away.
Skoosh.